3/21/08

Which one has the higher compensation? More prestige? Better hours? Better exit opportunities? More job security? What's the job environment like for each?

Comments (181)

3/21/08

Different strokes for different folks. For prestige, they're kind of not comparable; some companies do great at IB but not at S&T and vice versa. Hours are less for S&T, but many consider it more stressful. You have your weekends for trading but while you are trading it is nonstop high pressure situations all day. As far as comp goes, at the lower levels (analyst/associate), the pay is almost exactly the same. Trading though, if you're good, can bring ridiculous bonuses and probably produces more 20-something millionaires.

Job security? Neither is great. Banks like to slash during downturns. Given the fact that trading constitutes a bigger chunk of the company's balance sheets, it will likely have more jobs but also more firings if things go sour.

Exit opps have different opportunities too. Traders can go into prop trading, hedge funds, and alternative investment management. Bankers like going the private equity route, or if you get burned out, corp development.

Environment is intense in both, but probably moreso in trading. Just a lot of intensity because of the rapid pace and high amount of zeros in many trades. Banking though has its own pressures, like having to stay up until 7 am to finish a pitchbook, go home, change shirts/shower, and go back to the office to prepare last minute changes for the morning pitch or meeting. Depends on the type of person you are. If you are high energy but need time to cool off and relax, trading might be better. If you are more of the endurance/distance runner, you can weather the daily drain of banking.

BTW, nobody can tell you which is better. They both have their pros/cons. You have to match that to your interests. Read the Vault guides and use the Search tool on the board to read more. Eventually you're gonna have to decide for yourself. Best way to do that is to get experience through internships and shadows. If a trading floor and 6-computer screen trading desk scare the shit out of you, S&T is probably a bad idea.

Investment Banking Interview Course

3/22/08

trading is really intense and bad traders who don't do their analysis get knocked out. On the other hand, if you read up on all your stuff and manage risk well, then trading is for you. You can make so much money at senior levels and I'm not talking about 2-3MM, I'm talking 10-15 MM if you are good enough.

3/23/08

If you're going to stay in it and think you'll be good at it, go S&T. High up, pay is much better. IB on the other hand probably gives you enough exposure in coverage groups to move back into the industry. If you do badly in S&T, you're screwed.

3/23/08
charlemenge:

If you're going to stay in it and think you'll be good at it, go S&T. High up, pay is much better. IB on the other hand probably gives you enough exposure in coverage groups to move back into the industry. If you do badly in S&T, you're screwed.

That is less true for sales than it is trading. Depending on what kind of sales you do, if you're more on the hedging/risk management side for corporates, you can definitely move into industry. Former colleagues of mine have done it.

3/23/08

With IBD you become industrious but with S&T you learn the product and the technicals which go with it. If you like the buzz of the trading floor and want to understand how markets work (market making, etc.) then trading is for you. 10 years down the line, a IBD person would be more tempted of starting his own business or investing in a business (VC/entrep'ship) whereas the trader would be inclined to run his own portfolio and trade stocks online. I feel that traders are somehow limited when they quit as their set of skills and knowledg base are restricted to only what they know and worked with. Whereas a IBD person can apply his core skills (valuation, industry knowledge, etc.) to many situations (and probably can run his own portfolio as well).

3/23/08

Why do people write S&T when they mean trading...are you guys not aware of the difference?

3/23/08

Agreed with fp175, Sales is much different from trading, although they work together they are very different roles

3/23/08

Most banks hire kids into S&T analyst programs, then they differentiate into sales or trading after training or even after working for 1-2 years. That is why it's referred to as S&T. Plus there's a lot of overlap between sales and trading.

7/11/11

.

7/11/11
MiamiThrice:

.

asshole

I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

7/29/15
MiamiThrice:

.

ditto

7/29/15

IBD analysts do not make more than S&T analysts, they are paid about the same. Ive never been in IBD but i can tell you quality of life in S&T is generally much better. You actually have time outside of work to do things.

7/29/15

s&t does not pay less, is more merit based...success in sales is based on both things. and sales ability is no simple thing

7/29/15

I don't think sales ability can be put down to any one thing, I know people who would seem to be very good at sales but when it came down to it they failed for any number of reasons. Alternatively there are people who you would not think would be good at sales yet do very well. Basically I think it comes down to the individual, you won't know until you do it. I also think that some time spent in sales of any area (not only banking) develops or enhances the skills needed to succeed in business, even if you end up being mediocre you will get a lot out it.

7/29/15
CBlue:

I don't think sales ability can be put down to any one thing, I know people who would seem to be very good at sales but when it came down to it they failed for any number of reasons. Alternatively there are people who you would not think would be good at sales yet do very well. Basically I think it comes down to the individual, you won't know until you do it. I also think that some time spent in sales of any area (not only banking) develops or enhances the skills needed to succeed in business, even if you end up being mediocre you will get a lot out it.

Based on my experience this summer on a sales desk I totally agree. There are the sales people who hang out with their buy-side buddies every other night at the pub, have incredible social and communication skills and can basically sell anything to their clients. On the other hand you will also find very successful salesmen who use a strict analytical approach and convince their clients with their ideas instead of their personality.

Most salesmen are somewhere in between, but the point is I agree that there is not one specific skillset that makes a good salesman.

7/29/15

Yes, S&T is more "meritocratic" than IBD. Opportunities for advancement are better if you're good, but in general they're just very different. In S&T, you are gambling on 2 things: the possibility that the market will do well, and the possibility that you are actually a good inst salesperson or trader. In IBD, it's much easier to hide if you suck, and certain groups tend to be a little more stable.

by the way, your supposed situation is not very credible. you have an "opportunity to work" (offer?) at Bear or UBS next summer, but you dont even know which side of the firm you would be on? if you have a question for us, just go ahead and ask, you dont need to make up a bunch of stuff.

7/29/15

You wrote: "In S&T, you are gambling on 2 things: the possibility that the market will do well, and the possibility that you are actually a good inst salesperson or trader."

That's not true at all. First, no one gives a shit whether the market does well or not. You care whether or not there is volatility. Bull, bear--all irrelevant. What matters is vol because that's why corporates hedge and also what allows you to do complex trades. No one buys something hoping it will go up or sells something hoping it will go done. Very little work that is that simplistic is done on the trading floor these days.

The key to S&T is being able to understand the ever-more complex trades banks are doing now, and to be able to apply high-level finance to different situations for different clients.

And the sales people you describe as going out to dinner every night with their buyside buddies are a dying breed. That type of work only happens on flow desks, which are at the dying end of the business.

7/29/15

Danbush is a XXX, I usually don't answer annoying questions but I will for you. I have two people on the board of BS and I have one superstar MD at UBS who both told me that I can work wherever I choose, that's why I am debating this. I am bright enough and possibly delusional enough to believe that I will get a full time offer after the summer so that is why I am weighing these options very carefully.

To everyone else, thanks alot for the help and clarification.

7/29/15

^I don't think danbush even works in the industry so don't focus on his comments too much.
jimbo, skins, and structure have the monopoly on valuable responses

7/29/15

You might want to look at this:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/node/6139

I lean towards S&T, but that's a personal preference.

7/29/15

"In S&T, you are gambling on 2 things: the possibility that the market will do well, and the possibility that you are actually a good inst salesperson or trader."

Trading is all about the bid/ask spreads, which exist in a bear or bull market. A day with tight spreads is a bad day for traders. However, if you end up with something like the NYSE computer correction that happened early this year during the subprime crisis (200 point movement in the Dow within a matter of seconds), there'll be some problems too.

Now, portfolio management or ibanking are way more dependent on the market than S&T.

7/29/15

This post is asinine.

Wherever you can get a job young one. That's the better one....

7/29/15

But based on the OP criteria, what is your opinion?

It's the equivalent of saying would you rather manage Spurs or Bulls? You'd take either one obviously.

But the point is which would you prefer based on all the options ? IBD vs S&T?

7/29/15
cash_money:

It's the equivalent of saying would you rather manage Spurs or Bulls? You'd take either one obviously.

I know just about nothing about basketball, but I know enough to know this is an utterly retarded comparison. IB and S&T aren't 2 interchangeable career paths, they're hugely different.

7/29/15
IncapableChimp:

cash_money:It's the equivalent of saying would you rather manage Spurs or Bulls? You'd take either one obviously.

I know just about nothing about basketball, but I know enough to know this is an utterly retarded comparison. IB and S&T aren't 2 interchangeable career paths, they're hugely different.

This is the first thing I thought of:

7/29/15

First impressions of OP because it just continued to get dumber and dumber as I read on

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul

7/29/15
cash_money:

In your opinion fellow Monkeys, which comes out on top?1) Highest starting salary?2) Highest long-term Salary ceiling? ie Best banker vs best trader- who could earn more?3) Worst hours?4) Most competitive ?5) Best exit opps ?6) Your own personal preference, my fellow monkeys?

This question is ridiculous, but I'll humor you.

1) They're the same at the BBs. $85k base + 10k signing.

2) Probably comparable. Analysts will make mid-100s, MDs can easily make 7 figures in both.

3) 60-70/wk average for S&T, 80+ for IBD

4) Equally competitive to break into

5) Depends on where you want to end up - most people in S&T aren't looking for exit opps. Impossible to compare

7/29/15

holy fuck. search function buddy. read both forums, and read mergers and inquisitions.

7/29/15

they are essentially the same.

400,000-500,000 first year comp
same hours 9-6 (at worst)
same role functions (most just call it ibdst rather than ib or st)

your welcome

7/29/15
GOB:

they are essentially the same.

400,000-500,000 first year comp
same hours 9-6 (at worst)
same role functions (most just call it ibdst rather than ib or st)

your welcome

I have to agree with this.

7/29/15

Posting in ALL CAPS is really annoying. No advice given.

7/29/15
Interested individual:

i have skills for both roles

I'm guessing research isn't one of those skills, because this topic has been beaten to death

7/29/15
roymondito:
Interested individual:

i have skills for both roles

I'm guessing research isn't one of those skills, because this topic has been beaten to death

hahahahaha

ha

7/29/15

Earning potential for both S&T and IBD at the highly senior levels (senior managing director, partners, group heads, etc.) can be deep into 7 figures, even 8.

7/29/15

8 figures? nope

7/29/15

In a good year? Absolutely. Think along the lines of the head of Equities or FICC at a BB. They Can easily clear 8 figures.

7/29/15

'easily clear 8 figures'? Sold.

7/29/15

Tell that to Frank Quattrone

7/29/15

this is like a basketball vs football question. Two totally different skills.

7/29/15

to rephrase the question, who makes more, the average S&T MD or the average IB MD, and yes, I know that S&T has more variability. Also how long would it take roughly to make each S&T MD and IB MD?

7/29/15

Trading MD promotion (and bonus escalation) happens faster. If you are a rockstar trader...you will get promoted every year...and can be an MD within 4-5 years. Traders are paid (and fired) based on P&L. However, rockstars are very rare. IBD is more "stable"...trading like a rockstar is a high risk/ high reward career...more akin to gambling. Most star traders will go to hedge funds after making 100mm at an ibank (banks will pay you at most 8-10% of your P&L..and more like 5% on avg...with the % going down as your P&L goes up...but most hedge funds will pay that same trader 18-20% on the same P&L...so this is an easy move to make). Very low odds of this happening btw.

However, this is a rare ability...

The Sales part of S&T is more stable..more akin to IBD in that respect...takes longer to get promoted, but with less risk of getting fired if you are decent (tho, in purges, very few salespeople are "safe"). Sales is not just product knowledge...you have to be a rockstar at entertaining clients. Shy awkward people do not perform well in that role. Good sales people will make more than weak traders. The best trader will make more than everybody, but will never have stability.

you should also consider population. There are few traders...and more sales people (often 3:1 ratio....10 traders n a desk might have 30 sales people). IBD is more like sales in that regard....there are many more Investment Banking positions available every year.

7/29/15
ironnchef:

Most star traders will go to hedge funds after making 100mm at an ibank (banks will pay you at most 8-10% of your P&L..and more like 5% on avg...with the % going down as your P&L goes up...but most hedge funds will pay that same trader 18-20% on the same P&L...so this is an easy move to make).

Most HFs take 20% of profits as fee, so please explain to me how it makes sense that they would pay out 18-20% to a trader?

Also you are not getting paid 8-10% of profits at a bank, very rarely do you have a set % at a bank, and the actual % of pnl is heavily based on how much franchise pnl management think there is, but either way on average my estimate would be MUCH lower than 8-10% realized. That is closer to what you get at HF's, so 20% of profit is taken by fund, half of that goes to the PM responsible.

7/29/15

can you read?

1) i said 5% on avg....not 8-10...i said 8-10 is rare (and it is very rare).

2) hedge funds (on the 2/20 model, which is standard) keep the 2% mgmt fee...the bulk of the 20% is paid to the trader/PM (different places give it a different name...in this case we are not talking about "execution traders" which are brainless....but decision makers)

Take a multistrat / multi manager HF like BlueCrest or Millenium...a 20bln fund (last i checked)...lets assume they are a 2/20 shop. 2% of 20bln = 400mm per year, just for showing up. that's where the majority of the "owner" profit comes from...a small bit is used to pay base salaries (100-200k per person). the majority is profit for the owner.

Then there is an army of trader/PMs....guys who are making decisions, buying/selling that 20bln. Lets assume PM/Trader is the same guy...these are typically traders who were hired from the ibanks.

These traders don't get ANY of that 2%...the 400mm. Ok...maybe they get 100k...enough to pay their rent and buy groceries. In order to make real $$....these traders have to make P&L...and they get the majority of their pay solely as % of P&L. So, make 10mm trading, get paid ~ 18%...or 1.8mm

Why would a hedge fund pay a trader such a higher % of his P&L than he was getting at an ibank? Well, its well known that you either perform or get fired as a trader, so there is career risk...HFs hire traders away from ibanks...so they need a "carrot" to lure these guys away (the carrot is more money).

The owner will keep a small % of the 20% performance fee (unless he is the trader/PM trading the $$ himself..in which case he is both owner and trader).

Exactly how the % is split varies based on the firm...but i know of many where 18% is pretty standard.

7/29/15

Can YOU read?

I clearly said you arent getting 8-10% even on the upper end of the range. The biz model just doesnt work that way anymore. And i said my estimate for realized would be much lower than 8-10%, not implying your 8-10% estimate was an average guess. Even 5% is high, there are a lot of franchise books that make 30-50m, but you can be sure the trader is not getting 1.5-2.5m.

I am not sure why you felt you had to use so many words to describe what a 2/20 structure is, or how HFs are setup given that I work at one, but I can tell you one thing, both BlueCrest (which is now only investing its own capital) and Millenium (which is not a traditional HF but a trader platform) are not good examples to use of a typical HF payout structure.

7/29/15

i recall prefacing my comment with "rockstars"...a rockstar is somebody who makes large P&L in excess of franchise value.

If you are a new hire into a flow seat, and that seat is worth ~ 20mm/year from customer flow (over the past few years)....and the new trader in that seat makes 100mm...that 80mm diff is the value of the rockstar, and has almost nothing to do with the franchise.

If that trader consistently (2+ years in a row) outperforms the value of the seat, then he will be rewarded accordingly.

i will repeat that nobody on this board needs to worry about this problem....it doesn't apply to you.

7/29/15

what are the characteristics of a rockstar that can do something like that and what are the desks where you see things like that the most frequently?

7/29/15

its hard to quantify...my experience is in rates, and the rockstars that i've seen...just had a "feel" for the market...they would sit there watching, being involved to a small degree most of the time, and then they would just sense a pattern building, and then they would just be in the zone....buy 400mm 5yr notes and watch them go up 6 ticks...sell 100mm 30yr bonds and watch them go down 16 ticks...just pulling $$ out of the market...usually nothing to do with flow...they just knew when they had an advantage, and they would press those situations.

sometimes, they see a customer doing a series of trades (for example, China buys 100mm 30yr bonds, then 10min later buys another 100mm, then another, and another...pretty quickly you sense a pattern and buy 200mm for yourself...and pocket 2-3mm). You might have scratched the actual flow trades....but the info was very valuable to help you make a prop decision.

nobody is perfect, even the rockstar....but the rockstar just has MORE of those days....1mm here, 1mm there....pretty soon, you're talking about real money.

The avg US Treasury desk makes less than 100mm/year for the entire desk (on avg a desk has 8 traders...so 12mm/trader). This is of course highly volatile...but that's an avg. I've seen a desk make 1bln...and i've seen a desk lose money for the year. But, on avg....100mm/year.

P&L that varies that much is all from prop trading. The guys who made the big numbers tend to go to hedge funds, where the exact same work brings them more $$, which is partly why the numbers are so volatile, there is a lot of turnover.

7/29/15

If that's the case, why has there been such a HUGE outflow from rates desk the past 2-3 years?

Goldman like lost most of their rates traders past few years...

7/29/15

customer flow has decreased significantly over the past 6 years...fewer relative value hedge funds because of increased reg cap rules and less volatility (thanks to zero rates and SOMA acct size)...so dealers need fewer traders to handle the volume of customer flow trades that they see.

8 years ago, when it was busy, all 8-10 traders on a UST desk would be crazy busy, all day long. now, half of those traders would just be sitting on their hands all day waiting for customer flow trades, thinking about wat prop trade to do...so the franchise value of many dealer seats has decreased. Those seats are now mostly just prop traders, disguised at flow traders.

Banks have not yet acknowledged this fact...because there is still customer flow....just less of it. So every year, a few banks decide they want to try to gain a larger % of that mkt share of customer flow. However, customer flow is a zero sum game...

Ultimately, each bank has increased the electronic market making component of the desk (and some are still building that out)...the world needs fewer UST desks than it did 20 years ago...but that is a slow process.

Since Dodd Frank/ Volker doesn't prohibit prop trading of US Treasuries and interest rates...banks will always seek out potential profits...it just comes and goes in cycles.

7/29/15
ironnchef:

i will repeat that nobody on this board needs to worry about this problem....it doesn't apply to you.

u sure dude? i can name at least 4 ppl on wso to whom that applies to....

few heavy hitters post/ have posted on wso.

7/29/15
Macro Arbitrage:

ironnchef:i will repeat that nobody on this board needs to worry about this problem....it doesn't apply to you.

u sure dude? i can name at least 4 ppl on wso to whom that applies to....

few heavy hitters post/ have posted on wso.

Do tell.

7/29/15

The average compensation for S&T in the top 5-10% is probably higher than IBD in the same percentiles. The average overall (full distribution) is higher in IBD vs. S&T (and by a much larger margin than most people on this forum realize). It's also ridiculous to assume you'll be top 5-10% in either one. If you want to make a comparison, take a stab at an income based DCF projection with failure rates / job stability in both fields and see what you come up with. If you want some baseline estimations, I can provide you with my estimates but I think you'll find a basic sensitivity analysis to be insightful.

7/29/15

8 figures = 10mm. This is rockstar...and not something you should plan on / expect to happen. You should plan on the lower end / average..and anything better is an actual "bonus"

I know a few guys who have made 10mm...but very few. I know dozens that make 500k

7/29/15

what bank pays traders 10mm? Might need to do a lateral in company and take a little venture to the other side of that good ol Chinese wall.....

7/29/15
7/29/15

Using the top earners' salaries to make a decision on a career is a bad idea. That's like saying you should just be a rapper since Jay-Z has a 9 figure net worth.

Investment Banking Interview Course

7/29/15

Similar situation

7/29/15

There have been a million threads on this. The answer is always banking

  •  7/29/15

I heard that S&T is harder to get into because there are far less S&T positions and because fewer people are the S&T "type". But i dont have any first hand knowledge.

7/29/15

S&T is definitely harder to get in. For IBD, there is high turnover rate so there is always demand for Bankers.

7/29/15

S&T takes no skills whatsoever.

7/29/15
dukeofduke:

S&T takes no skills whatsoever.

i dont understand why you fucking waste time on this site posting such complete and utter bullshit all the time. it boggles my mind how fucking stupid you are

7/29/15
leveRAGE.:
dukeofduke:

S&T takes no skills whatsoever.

i dont understand why you fucking waste time on this site posting such complete and utter bullshit all the time. it boggles my mind how fucking stupid you are

U MAD? Because your dream job's a joke any 15 year old can do?

7/29/15
dukeofduke:

S&T takes no skills whatsoever.

compared to bankers who literally input data into a spreadsheet and change the font and layout of power point slides all day?

7/29/15

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

7/29/15
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

7/29/15
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

7/29/15
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

send your slides down, i'll take them home and have my 12 year old sister format them for you.

7/29/15
awm55:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

send your slides down, i'll take them home and have my 12 year old sister format them for you.

Oh and can she calculate T-Mobile's WACC and future cash flows for me too? If so, I'll hire her for $10/hr to do my work and suck my dick. Shoot me an email: j.dimon@JPMorgan.com

7/29/15
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

send your slides down, i'll take them home and have my 12 year old sister format them for you.

Oh and can she calculate T-Mobile's WACC and future cash flows for me too? If so, I'll hire her for $10/hr to do my work and suck my dick. Shoot me an email: j.dimon@JPMorgan.com

yeah, she probably can. its simple fucking multiplication you retard.

7/29/15
leveRAGE.:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

send your slides down, i'll take them home and have my 12 year old sister format them for you.

Oh and can she calculate T-Mobile's WACC and future cash flows for me too? If so, I'll hire her for $10/hr to do my work and suck my dick. Shoot me an email: j.dimon@JPMorgan.com

yeah, she probably can. its simple fucking multiplication you retard.

LOL U MAD.

7/29/15
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

send your slides down, i'll take them home and have my 12 year old sister format them for you.

Oh and can she calculate T-Mobile's WACC and future cash flows for me too? If so, I'll hire her for $10/hr to do my work and suck my dick. Shoot me an email: j.dimon@JPMorgan.com

No problem, while were at it hopefully you can help me price and hedge a hybrid dual range accrual.

7/29/15
awm55:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:
awm55:
dukeofduke:

IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.

i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.

Tell them to get real jobs.

send your slides down, i'll take them home and have my 12 year old sister format them for you.

Oh and can she calculate T-Mobile's WACC and future cash flows for me too? If so, I'll hire her for $10/hr to do my work and suck my dick. Shoot me an email: j.dimon@JPMorgan.com

No problem, while were at it hopefully you can help me price and hedge a hybrid dual range accrual.

LOL exactly, you need my help. Not the other way around.

7/29/15

S&T LIKE PLAYING A VIDEOGAME I'M SO GOOD AT LIKE ANGRY DOGS

FARTMAN

7/29/15

Again, IBD. Or go home. They really are totally opposites sides of the game.

7/29/15

Sales : utter crap, basically glorified AT&T sales rep

Trading: dying out from regulations and market making is not same as prop trading.

IBD: sucks, but leads to MEGAFUND LIKE ME U MAD?!?!

7/29/15
boutiquebank4life:

Sales : utter crap, basically glorified AT&T sales rep

Trading: dying out from regulations and market making is not same as prop trading.

IBD: sucks, but leads to MEGAFUND LIKE ME U MAD?!?!

This is why you have so much shit on your face.

7/29/15

sales is complete and utter bullshit.

trading is interesting, and for some of it you need to actually be rly smart, issue is your still mainly just screwing clients over and not generating value for anyone(altough when you move to a hedgefund you atleast start making money for your investors)

IBD is pretty bullshitty, you do help to create an efficient market somewhere tough. Work is intellectually insulting, ideally suited for the less intelligent amongst wso.

7/29/15

Design 1047, also known as Project 1047,[8] was a series of plans for a class of Dutch battlecruisers prior to the Second World War. The ships were intended to counter a perceived threat posed by Imperial Japanese aggression to the Dutch colonies in the East Indies. Dutch intelligence believed that the Imperial Japanese Navy would deploy its capital ships (aircraft carriers and battleships) against their counterparts of the United States Navy and the British Royal Navy, leaving heavy and light cruisers, along with seaplane carriers, as the largest ships available for an advance into the East Indies. As such, the 1047s were shaped by the need to be able to fight their way through a fleet composed of these ships and smaller destroyers. It was hoped that this capability would allow the battlecruisers to act as a fleet in being.

After a recommendation from high-ranking Dutch naval officers that the Koninklijke Marine (Royal Netherlands Navy) be bolstered so any attacker would have to "use such a large part of his military potential that there would be an unacceptable weakening of his capabilities in other theaters", the Minister of Defense ordered the Navy to prepare designs for a two or three-member class of battlecruisers. As they had not previously designed a modern capital ship, and the only information available on modern designs came from public literature and editions of Jane's Fighting Ships, the Dutch turned to Germany. This initially bore no results, as the two sides were unable to come to terms. During this time, a preliminary plan was drawn up without foreign assistance; completed on 11 July 1939, it was missing many of the post-First World War advances in warship technology. In particular, the armor protection was totally outmoded.

Germany and the Netherlands were eventually able to reach an agreement where Germany would release plans and drawings based upon their ideas for a battlecruiser, in return for a guarantee that all needed equipment would be ordered from German firms. With their assistance (mainly through NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw), a rough design was formulated by February 1940. A visit to Italy prompted a rethink of the internal layout, which led to a set of drawings dated 19 April 1940. This is the last known design produced prior to Germany's invasion and occupation of the Netherlands. Plans for the ships were never completed.

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First of all you're obviously not the "PE recruiter" you made yourself out to be in previous posts, so good job blowing your cover. That said, you must be an underclassman in college so I'll try to provide some guidance.

  • There are a fewer total number of available S&T analyst jobs out there
  • S&T is very much "up or out" - if you can't perform (and many won't), you're done
  • IBD is not just the path to PE; many people don't know exactly what they want to do and IBD provides you with a very useful skill set if you're not sure
  • Adding to point above, S&T is great if you only want to do S&T for the rest of your life

The list goes on.

People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

7/29/15

Adding to Rickyross...

even if S&T has the same exit ops as IBD (which will never happen) I doubt there would be a meaningful uptick in applications/ analysts. Some people truly do not like trading, while others don't know what exactly a trader does so they never look into it. Basically different strokes for different folks.

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I disagree with you ricky, I don't think its very up and out. I know many traders and salespeople who stay in BBs, who has actually heard of someone get fired from a BB? I've never heard of such a story.

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grass is always greener...first few years as an S&T analyst you're gonna have to do shit like grab coffee and lunch for all the traders and do admin work in addition to the analytical stuff. yes you get off work earlier but you also wake up at 5am everyday, and that doesn't change as you go up. 5am to 6pm = 13 hour days

7/29/15

But no weekends, right?

also thats not true, i know a trader he doesn't go to work until 7am.

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megafundguy:

i know a trader he doesn't go to work until 7am.

The guy your mom is fucking this week rolling out of bed and going to his E*Trade account doesn't count.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

7/29/15

U mad?

7/29/15

Just because ONE trader you know doesn't go into work until 7am doesn't mean that it's typical.

Search threads on here dude. S&T vs. IBD is one of the most frequently discussed topics and has been beaten to death and mutilated in its coffin.

People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.

7/29/15
rickyross:

Just because ONE trader you know doesn't go into work until 7am doesn't mean that it's typical.

Search threads on here dude. S&T vs. IBD is one of the most frequently discussed topics and has been beaten to death and mutilated in its coffin.

FX guys get on the desk 5:30-6am. Everyone else gets in between 6:30-7:30am (with 6:30 being the time the analysts get in)

"Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."

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Are you talking about summer of 2012 already? How did you get both offers so quick? Thought even acellerated recruiting doesn't start until Sept or Oct?

I am still in college, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd say if you want to do banking, do banking and if you want to do something else in finance, take MS. It's not like Lazard is a bad place to start at all, and you are in the M&A group, which tends to be more coveted than say FIG (not a knock on FIG, just what I've heard from people applying) Hope that makes sense

7/29/15

First I'll say I'd love to have a problem like yours. But in the same breath ill also say, no one knows what YOU want to do. You have to figure it out for yourself, some may say IBD some may say S&T but thats what they would do in your situation. You need to figure out what YOU would do in your current situation. It isn't the end of the world if you do either but you need to think about what you want not what a group of people on a random online message board are telling you.

Good luck, and congratulations in advance.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/29/15

Morgan Stanley

hands down, no questions.

7/29/15

I agree with blackfinancier. If you are interested in pursuing banking the obviously you would want to take the IBD positions and if you are interested in S&T then you would go with the MS offer. I really don't see the sense of asking this question on this site since these are not even comparable internships.

So put on your big boy pants and kindly decide on your own as to what you see yourself doing in the future as a career.

7/29/15

MS S&T is notorious for having a low offer rate, though.

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If you have no clue what you want to do, go with M&A. If you already love following markets, economic releases and news in general, go with S&T.

Banking.

7/29/15

If you want to do banking, go with Lazard

Get busy living

7/29/15

If I accept one of these in the coming month or so, am I taking action too fast? These opportunities both came about because of personal networking - all the BBs recruit my school during the normal winter season. Would it be smart to see what else is out there, or should I be thankful I have something and choose 1 now?

7/29/15

If they're giving you more time, then interview with other places obviously...

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Obviously I wouldn't decide until I have to...but the whole point of accelerated interviewing is for them to tie you up before normal recruiting season

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I doubt it.

S&T is too fast and IB is too slow for traders...not yo mention the hours

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more bankers

7/29/15

more IB slots but far more applicants as well

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If a bank posts IB and S&T positions on your school's career board, is it advisable to apply to both or can that hurt your chances?

7/29/15

during my summer there were far more s&t than ibd..

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for those who have said there are more ib positions, is it a large difference or a very marginal difference

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it varies by year and bank, bear in mind the number of applicants/position is comparable

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At goldman there are more S&T than ibankers in the bad years

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Yeah

-MBP

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  1. Higher variance of pay, but average banker > average trader. Upside is larger in trading but I wouldnt be surprised if EV was in bankings favor
  2. Yep
  3. Depends what you consider fun. Being stuck with a short gamma position when the market breaks is certainly not fun.
  4. Getting lunch everyday may not be ''administrative'' work but it sure is a pain the ass (altho during summer you at least get some sun)
7/29/15
derivstrading:

3. Depends what you consider fun. Being stuck with a short gamma position when the market breaks is certainly not fun.

Nor the opposite, paying a ton of decay and the damn market won't move! Aha

Jack: They're all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

7/29/15

derivs, what do u mean by #1. If you are really a derivs trader u should be clearing a lot more.

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London S&T hours are about the same as NY, but (I have no proof) I've been told and get the impression that NYC IBD is worse than London, despite the fact that pay does not differ a lot.

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  1. getting coffee/lunch orders > changing font size and fixing printers
  2. No secretary (sadface)
7/29/15

Stop comparing apples and oranges. Two different careers. Two different types of people.

New topic...

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time

7/29/15
vadremc:

Stop comparing apples and oranges. Two different careers. Two different types of people.

New topic...

THIS

Get busy living

7/29/15

can get fired any day > if you really really suck

7/29/15

if you want a live glimpse of a hedge fund trading desk, go to the live broadcast on www.hedgefundlive.com.
see for yourself if traders are that great. these guys were at large institutions before and after making the big bucks are trying to start up a new idea/company.

HedgeFundLIVE
www.hedgefundlive.com
The World's First Interactive Trading Network

7/29/15

No one is born anything, unless you're talking about sports. Work hard, don't fuck up and you'll do fine in life. Get distracted from work, and your're screwed in either profession.

7/29/15

So you're actually not interest in the content of the jobs. Interesting. Do IBD, my friend.

7/29/15

I am interested in the content, but I love following the markets, as well as working with individual companies...

7/29/15

definitely ibd

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  1. False
  2. Yes, both are very cyclical, but S&T is a little more "risky", but also has more upside potential
  3. Made
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Your questions make you sound too risk-averse too be a trader.

Go with banking, buddy.

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  1. False and ridiculous. M&A bankers being good traders? You cant be serious.
  2. Depends on the nature of the recession. Before you are a producer (ie you have a profitable track record trading or you bring in clients on the banking side) niether job is particularly "safe".
  3. I would say its a combination of born and made, but this is a debate that has no answer and could be debated all day. In fact, it was this very question that prompted Randolph and Mortimer Duke to hire Billy Ray Valentine and the rest is history.
7/29/15

are you a dorky ass quant jock or a tool bag ass kisser?

7/29/15

It seems like you have a trading offer under your belt, but I personally would prefer banking.

7/29/15

You actually can't do much since you are not licensed.

SA will spend most of the day shadowing Traders or Sales, listen in on internal calls, watching the markets, knowing when to ask intelligent questions, knowing when to keep their mouth shut, writing internal market summaries, maybe a small project here or there, making copies, getting lunch/coffee for desk.

Although, SA are not doing much work they can learn soo much just by listening, watching and asking really good questions.

SA that get FT offers were able to demonstrate their ability to learn in a crazy environment, ask intelligent questions related to what was going on in the market, knowing the right time to open their mouths, and completing all tasks with perfection/near perfection and efficiency, and demonstrated personality 'fit'

Hours - usually about 12-13 per day
Pay - 2007 was $60K pro-rate

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what about FT differences in pay, hours, etc?

7/29/15

pay is the same, as to the hours that's been discussed many times. read some of the old threads.

7/29/15

is that really the typical S&T day? I'd figure there would be a lot of trading simulations for the summer analysts are all that... seems like ibd summers get a lot more responsibility

7/29/15

S&T internships can be boring as hell since you are not licensed...The positive is that you will get to enjoy NYC a lot more...

Sitting around watching traders and salesmen do their job..asking questions at the right times...MAYBE helping them with little tasks here and there...perhaps a long-term project....getting their breakfasts and lunches (Yup)

That was basically my experience as a S&T SA at a BB firm. When I was an IBD SA at the same BB, I had a lot more responsibilities, being put on deals, modeling, and etc., but was sometimes too tired to enjoy the city.

7/29/15

S&T people have a good life. Also the pay is as good as IBD. Maybe, if you are a really good trader, you can make much more than an investment banker. I should have gone into S&T instead of investment banking, but it's a bit too late.

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