Impeached
What do you guys think is gonna happen, or should happen? Do you think Trump will still receive the nomination from the Republican party in the upcoming election?
Interested to hear what everyone thinks.
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The answers to those questions are too obvious, hence the thread is boring.
Let me revitalize it with some highly inflammatory truths: -liberals hate capitalism; -liberals hate the Constitution; -liberals hate freedoms; -liberals hate Western culture; -liberals hate white people; -liberals hate families; -liberals hate babies; -liberals hate Christmas.
Go!
You're weird bro.
Ok but am I wrong?
The idea that this impeachment is anti-freedom or anti-Constitution is too dumb to even consider, much less respond to.
That was never my argument though
FUCK THE LIBTARD CUCKS DONALD J TRUMP IS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT THAT GOD EVER CREATED USA USA USA USA USA USA
Always knew I could count on the CEO of a non-profit.
Who cares? Honestly? Complete non-issue and waste of time...what is the net effect? queue intellectual attacks from those who do not live in the practical world
I guess I was just curious to see what other people thought. Figured there would be a thread already going since the vote happened last night, but maybe the lack of a thread is indicative of the general apathy of the community.
It wasn't a stab at you, I'm just waiting for people to say something along the lines of "you don't understand the implications of this!"
speaking of complete non-issues, is the correct word here "queue" or "cue"
like are you saying "begin" the intellectual attacks...? Or, are you saying "intellectual attackers, get in line!"
or, is it just the UK spelling like the difference between traveling and travelling or color and colour?
these are the issues I'd like to see addressed at the debate
Please excuse the typo - I know you are a WSO "The Pro" certified user
Yes, who cares that our President invited and then tried to coerce a foreign power to announce a bullshit investigation into a polticial opponent like we're some sort of third world dumpster fire of a country.
Who cares that the President completely ignored a co-equal branch of government when they attempted to call witnesses and gather documents related to this fact.
Both of these instances are so counter to the point of the constitution and American government, the very government that created a world in which every thing we fucking do on an entrepreneurial and financial front is possible. But yeah - who cares?
I mean, it hasn't effected my life in the slightest. How exactly has it effected yours?
You're being a cynical dumbass.
Abandonment of the rule of law, the sanctity of American elections, and many of the key things that make America America does not immediately affect your life, but the abuse and degradation of freedoms in the most important democracy in history, in a time of Russian aggression and Chinese and autocratic ascendance on the world stage, will affect your life and your children's lives more than you can possibly imagine.
But yeah, I guess since it doesn't affect your coffee creamer selection this morning it doesn't matter.
do you know how many hundreds of millions of people don’t have access to fucking clean water or sanitation? Or the 1 in 5 kids in the UNITED STATES who are hungry? You don’t hear about that on CNN
Won’t get through Senate...
Correct, as politicians will inevitably chose their party and their job security over their country.
Doesn't mean it wasn't important to do.
Impeachment was intended to be for crimes and be bi-partisan. Neither of those are met in this instance, so its a political ploy by the Democrats that will backfire.
interesting you bring this up, nearly the exact same thing happened with clinton. vote was 258-176 (31 democrats voted to impeach).
most people don't know, but even the impeachment of andrew johnson was on party lines, impeachment was supported 126-47. at the time, there were 44 democrats (AJ's party) and 147 republicans.
so yes, it was intended to be bipartisan, but it's always been on party lines unfortunately
Ah yes, the Jefferson presidency. Remember it like it was yesterday.
SB'd.
What I'm curious about, following your line of discussion is this: If it continues in a partisan manner (which it likely will) it is highly probable that the process dies in the senate. What I'm curious about, and what the people who approached the thread with a BS apathetic viewpoint ignored, is are the Republicans going to remain partisan and commit to Trump for 2020 as the candidate? Do they even really have another option
You conveniently ignored my first point. Clinton actually committed a crime.
It was certainly not only intended for statutory crimes and never has been bi-partisan. Try again.
I won't comment on intent but it does seem a bit impractical to impeach someone who's up for election in less than a year. Impeachment seems more useful for someone who's early in their term.
What crime did Trump commit?
Question still stands: what exactly will change?
History will forever stain Donald Trump as one of only three Presidents to be impeached.
The only thing 99.99% of Americans know about Andrew Johnson is that he was impeached. Hell, you didn't even know who he was in this thread, confusing him with Thomas Jefferson.
People rarely talk about Clinton's budget surplus or how fantastic the economy was under his watch. They rarely talk about the various other bills he passed or things they agreed or disagreed with. They talk about the impeachment.
Fifty years from now, much of the pain Donald Trump has wrought, and any of the good that was passed under his watch, will only be of note to historians. But impeachment will stay with him forever, long after the gold plating peels off the various monuments to last name scattered around the world.
history will stain MONICA LEWINSKY
I don't disagree it'll stay with him, but who gives a shit about A Johnson now? He's irrelevant. An answer to an easy trivia question - if anything, it made him an historical footnote, which is better than the alternative to most. Does anyone care that Bill was impeached? No.
That's not to say Trump won't be remembered negatively - he will, for his attitude and approach and for using the divide to his advantage rather than trying to get parties to work together. Hopefully 50 years from now this is considered an odd decade, and not the decade that really lead to a snowball.
Your hyperbole is laughable.
He will be the first impeached president to win re-election. The Democrats couldn't help themselves. Anyone with any common sense knows the evidence is a joke. The polls have moved strongly against impeachment in all battleground states. The public can see through this nonsense.
This will change maybe
So Democrats were always going to use an impeachable offense to impeach Mr Trump? That smacks of being a tautology.
I agree that many Presidents commit impeachable offenses - probably every single one. The difference in this case is clear, though. Mr Trump suborned American policy, the rule of law, and the Constitution for personal gain. Its possible that the ATF gunwalking scandal was impeachable, I suppose - but at the very least one must admit that it was not an attempt to help Mr Obama (or Holder, depending on who was ultimately responsible) personally.
Not trying to cover for Donald. Didn't vote for him. But if a Democrat were President and did the same thing with this same House, he/she would not have been impeached. What he did is wrong, but that's all I was getting at.
What is funny to me is that Biden isn't catching any flak from other Democrats.
It's a sad day for America but a great day for the Constitution and the rule of law.
Donald Trump solicited Ukraine to announce investigations into his political opponent in order to impact the 2020 election and then threatened to withhold aid unless it was announced. This is an abuse of presidential powers and he was impeached for it. The idea that foreign powers can interfere in our elections, like Russia in 2016, is sad enough. Soliciting it and withholding aid to an ally unless they do it is horrifying.
Then, when Congress attempted to investigate him, Trump directed the White House and various agencies to defy subpoenas and withhold documents, directed his officials to not cooperate and not testify. This is obstruction of Congress and even more straightforward that the first article. Congress is a co-equal branch of government.
This is not a "witch hunt" or a repudiation of the 2016 election or any of the dozen of bullshit talking points thrown out by Congressional Republicans. Trump is not Jesus. Trump is not king.
Holding politicians and the powerful to account is as American as it gets.
Or - he wanted to make sure that we weren't giving aid to a corrupt government. That's the President's job.
The charges were bogus so he decided not play ball with the shame "investigation".
Donald Trump - lifelong anti-corruption fighter
Get the fuck out of here
I agree with all of what CRE and thebrofessor said above.
Humans are tribalistic by nature. We see this play out in many forms. We have our tribes and are willing to destroy other tribes to protect our own. We’re advanced monkeys. Imagine trying to explain to an alien why Republicans are better/ worse than Democrats.
What I don’t understand is the fundamentals behind the fanaticism around Trump. I genuinely don’t understand why people are so staunchly for him. Objectively speaking, he hasn’t done much. I’d go as far to say the only significant thing he’s done in four years is the tax overhaul program, which is detrimental (marginally so) for most Americans. I heard a coworker explaining that even though he’s paid more in taxes, it’s actually better because it’s not REALLY more. Goodbye basic mathematics. Pretty sure we learned greater than/ less than in kindergarten.
Going back to topic, it’s all about how a President makes society feel. We’re realizing people react to how they feel. Anti-Semitic, Anti-Muslim, and Anti-Hispanic crimes have risen drastically (fact check me per the FBIs website). People are more empowered to speak a rhetoric against minorities.
What one of my biggest issues is: opinions = facts. This is a huge issue with me. When people refuse to accept fact because it contradicts their opinion, and even replace that with alternative facts, is scary. It doesn’t matter what is actually the truth, it’s all about what people want to believe.
What does this have to do with impeachment? It’s a step back on the path of showing sometimes this shit doesn’t fly. You can’t make up a narrative as you go along and escape free. There are consequences for actions.
Is it a completely partisan effort? Absolutely. Why? Misalignment of interests. You’re a Republican Congressman/woman and you’ve got two mortgages, car payments, student loans, and kids. Dissent from Trump and good luck getting die hards to vote for you. Back Trump and you’ve just saved your shot at paying for your lifestyle. Humans are tribalistic. Are you a leader of the tribe or a heretic? You chose your poison, it’s time to drink it too.
1) he puts America first 2) he sticks it to the media, I despise the way the mainstream media is so left leaning 3) he tells it like it is and 4) he's a fighter
By kowtowing to Putin, Kim Jong Un, and MBS and sticking us with tariffs?
Correct. Also, very bad reason to support someone.As of three days ago, President Trump has made 15,413 false or misleading claims over 1,055 days, per the Washington Post.
We don't need a boardroom attorney, we elected the elder statesmen to represent our country on a global stageReally? He dodged the draft five times, has taken the side of dictators over his own intelligence community, will not release his taxes and the list goes on and on...
Alt-Ctr-Left gave a good breakdown. But more simply, “How?”
I’m not saying Trump is pure evil. I think he’s largely incompetent at his job and a bigot.
I agree, but remained amazed we haven't seen any dissent, other than Justin Amash. Surely many Congressmen have bills to pay, but others are retiring, are indepdently wealthy, or never intended to go to Washington for life. How have all of them magically fallen in line? Trump's a bad dude, but it's not like he'll have you killed for dissenting a la North Korea or Russia.
I’m far more jaded than you so my answers are simply: people put their own interests far above the interests of others (this making elected officials obsolete) and most people value money over morals.
I would like to be proven wrong. Every time I make very cynical statements like this, I’m proven right.
Yes, there are areas where I’m wrong (the military has thousands, if not more, examples of my incorrectness). But politics, I have yet to see it
It looks like we're headed down a dark path in American history. It's very eery the way democrats and republicans are split on everything. The WSJ pointed out that this was an example of totalitarian characteristics:
But surely the US will get through this.
The US will never get over it and will continue to go down the shitter with uncontrolled mass immigration, socialism, and the death of good working class jobs due to outsourcing and automation, all while America becomes hyperpartisan and even more hateful and distrusting of each other, all while China's economy continues to grow and it spreads its soft power and renminbi across the globe. Merry Christmas!
I read this 5x before I realized you never said anything about GETTING POUNDED IN THE ASS
wtf Lloyd
The whole situation is very unfortunate. Regardless of whether or not impeachment is good for the dems, they had no choice and had to proceed with the articles. If the Dems did not proceed with impeachment, it would set a very dangerous precedent for future presidents. The rule of law must exist. No one is above the law and a President should respect the separation of powers.
Exactly. While disgusting, I honestly don't know if this would make the top 5-10 of any President's transgressions, if all conversations and dealings where exposed/released, over the past 100+ years. Privately, I would bet that W, Obama, and Clinton are all thinking "wow, they've got him for this? I'm glad the public doesn't know items A-J about me."
Edit: meant to respond to the post below from Ptero.
I would agree with inclusion of Clinton to emphasis your point but not Obama. While you may disagree with Obama's policies, he was a very respectful POTUS.
I disagree entirely. I think many former Presidents would be appalled at Mr Trump's conduct. As I said elsewhere, most and maybe all Presidents have impeachable offenses committed under their watch. I agree with that. The difference is that usually these things are done in the name of country. Even the worst instance of the Constitution being undermined (Iran Contra, for which Reagan's name should be spat upon, not praised) was at least ostensibly done to further American foreign policy goals. Mr Trump has no such altruistic motive to hide behind. Whatever he sneers about corruption, no observer can fail to note that this scandal is bad because it so obviously benefits only Mr Trump. Even once you get past the suborning of the Constitution, the decimation of American foreign policy, the frankly astonishing fact that a private citizen and personal lawyer was running American foreign policy without any ability to be held accountable by Congress - even once you accept all that, you're still not at the worst part. Which is that all of this was done to help one man get re-elected at the expense of a political rival. Not to strengthen the position of the United States abroad in the face of an intransigent Congress, or to conduct policy in a legally/morally grey area, but to help himself. That is being a king, not an elected official. When the country and it's governing apparatus exists to serve one man's interests, and not the reverse, you've lost the ability to call yourself a democracy
Ehh, that's not really the point. Civilization is built around ideas. If the ideas are in question, the right version becomes too open to interpretation, and leaves no clear standard of right or wrong. We're crumbling little by little until there's nothing left.
Surprised at all the comments talking about how sad/dark/unfortunate it all is. People really think this is that big of a deal?
If I understand it right, he's being impeached because he called Ukraine and said he'll give them their customary aid if they'll investigate Biden's son. Inappropriate for sure. But sad? A dark day in history?
If you think a move like that isn't everyday politics, please sit down because I have something to tell you about Santa Claus.
This is over the top cynical, like it's coming from an 18 year old who just heard their first political podcast.
Donald Trump is only the 3rd president in the history of America to be impeached. That is, hands down, a massive deal. This isn't something that happens every time one party is mad at the other party.
He was impeached for soliciting Ukraine to announce investigations into his political opponent in order to impact the 2020 election and then threatened to withhold aid unless it was announced. Then, when Congress attempted to investigate him, Trump directed the White House and various agencies to defy subpoenas and withhold documents, directed his officials to not cooperate and not testify. He also was impeached for that.
Neither of those two things are "everyday politics."
Not counting Reagan, who was out of office when I was a toddler, I've only had 5 presidents my whole life. Two have been impeached. So I'm not sure its all that historic but I won't deny that its somewhat rare.
Your description of the Ukraine situation certainly makes it sound pretty bad but I don't think it would be too hard to dig into any "money in politics" expose and also present a story that sounds pretty awful and corrupt even though no laws are broken in the story. Or laws may even be broken but its too hard to prove in most cases.
I guess we just have a different measure of how common and uncommon certain degrees of wrongdoing are. But I hear you.
Agree 100%
This entire scenario was completely forseen and intended to happen. The reason why President Trump only campaigned for the senate is because they didn't care to win the congress (impeachment trial happens in the senate and they need 2/3 vote to pass it... obviously won't happen). This entire situation is intended to expose the overall abuse and malfeasance of the DS - (FBI, CIA, Democrat Party, as well as some RINO's who were forced out or will be forced out). What the 2 recently released reports show is that the FBI knowingly edited documents to present to the FISA court to trump up fake charges with the intention of "spying" on Carter Page a CIA asset, and in so doing - used the 3 hop rule to spy on everyone in his vicinity (the Trump campaign, journalists like John Solomon, and any other political opponent). And for those of you jokers talking about the completely clean and reasonable call President Trump had with Zelensky, I would love your explanation of this video (Biden bragging about withholding funds until a Ukrainian prosecutor - Viktor Shokin - looking into Burisma is fired. Burisma is of course the very corrupt energy company which Biden's son is on the board of making 50k+ a month with zero credentials in the energy space. Also, doesn't speak the native language or live in the country.
What people are missing is that the Zelensky call was also planned and plotted to be released by President Trump. You'll notice in the call he mentions the company CrowdStrike. This is extremely important to implant it in the general public's' consciousness before further actions are taken. Why is CrowdStrike important? CrowdStrike is a cyber security company funded/owned by Google (https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/crowdstrike#section-investors). One of the founders of CrowdStrike is Ukrainian native Dmitri Alperovitch (similar to Google founder Sergey Brin). Alperovitch coincidentally is a Senior Fellow on the board of the Atlantic Council. The Atlantic Council is a lefty think tank chock full of ex Obama admin officials. Furthermore, we all know of the emails from Wikileaks between the HRC campaign and Google officials offering to help her in any way possible. Also, this nice photo of Ex Google CEO - Eric Schmidt - at HRC's election party https://www.googletransparencyproject.org/articles/googles-support-hill… . There's a lot more on this front, but I'll leave it there.
To continue, back in 2016 the DNC servers were "hacked". In reality an internal staffer came across information which confirmed that the DNC was rigging the election for Hillary (the staffer Seth Rich was a Bernie supporter). He decided to download the information and send it to Wikileaks. He was later assassinated for his efforts (Thanks Debbie Wasserman Shultz -
). Once it got out that the server was hacked what did the DNC do? Did they call the FBI? Nah, they called their buddies at CrowdStrike, CrowdStrike came in, reviewed the servers, and in less than a week came out with the now proven false story that the Russians were the culprit. This along with the fake dossiersparked the beginning of the Russia hoax and the $30mm fruitless investigation. What this comes down to is that Google (a CIA cutout), the intelligence agencies, the courts, and the members of mostly the dem party (some on the right) are at the center of this entire coup attempt and heads will roll.
It's wild that people don't understand the magnitude of what's happening, and that they don't understand that Trump has already won. Once fully exposed and prosecuted the Democratic party is no longer going to exist. Take it to the bank.
Now this, was an entertaining read.
And herein lies another example of why I think our democracy is doomed. Guys like Global_IU_11 are just as passionate about the future of our government as I am, but rather than sort through facts and pretend to find impartiality, they immerse themselves into an echo chamber of easily de-bunked conspiracy theories while they wait patiently for the day when Hillary, Soros, and all those Democrats go to jail.
There's no use in trying to show facts to these people anymore. Meanwhile, back in the real world, six of Trumps adminstration/campaign team now sit in jail or are headed there soon.
Instead of the back and forth can we just make a wager? I'll even make it wild and not ask for any odds - my $2-500 bets that Obama and or Hillary will be arrested (potentially executed but not part of the bet) by the end of the Trump presidency. Loser of course Venmo's the winner.
Suicide would be a likely reaction by either, but Hillary is also a very sickly woman who might not have long anyways. So, if Hillary dies unexpectedly and they report something other than a suicide - then her side of the bet is null. But if Obama (a young healthy individual) dies an untimely death, or comes up with a terminal disease allotting him months/a year or 2 to live, then that counts towards the bet that I was correct.
Deal?
This is comically idiotic.
You can't compare withholding funds for an international reason to withholding funds to force a foreign country to investigate an American citizen for political reasons. One is called diplomacy, the other is betrayal and treasonous.
The parallel I think you draw is that to someone stupid, it's easy to fail to see the line drawn between the two and the difference between right and wrong. It's not hard to understand how one can make a politically disastrous mistake like Trump did.
I notice that liberals love throwing insults with every argument or non-argument. It's never straightforward or remotely civil. Sad state of affairs.
Now to refute your argument - there is nothing diplomatic about getting a foreign prosecutor fired for no reason other than that he's investigating the company that is acting as the DNC your son's piggy bank. It would be akin to Sergei Prikhodko bragging to a large crowd that Russia withheld $1b in assistance to the US until Trump fired Bill Barr. Not at all diplomatic.
To refute your other statement - There's a little matter of a Treaty (funny enough was made by Bill Clinton) which apparently the MSM didn't inform you about.
https://www.congress.gov/106/cdoc/tdoc16/CDOC-106tdoc16.pdf
"With a view to receiving the advice and consent of the Senate to ratification, I transmit herewith the Treaty Between the United States of America and Ukraine on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters with Annex, signed at Kiev on July 22, 1998. I transmit also, for the information of the Senate, an exchange of notes which was signed on September 30, 1999, which provides for its provisional application, as well as the report of the Department of State with respect to the Treaty. The Treaty is one of a series of modern mutual legal assistance treaties being negotiated by the United States in order to counter criminal activities more effectively. The Treaty should be an effective tool to assist in the prosecution of a wide variety of crimes, including drug trafficking offenses. The Treaty is self-executing. It provides for a broad range of cooperation in criminal matters. Mutual assistance available under the Treaty includes: taking of testimony or statements of persons; providing documents, records, and articles of evidence; serving documents; locating or identifying persons; transferring persons in custody for testimony or other purposes; executing requests for searches and seizures; assisting in proceedings related to restraint, confiscation, forfeiture of assets, restitution, and collection of fines; and any other form of assistance not prohibited by the laws of the requested state."
The US loves a good show. I will say that I feel like this type of thing (withholding aid / bringing foreign entities into national matters / etc.) has happened before, but previous politicians were more delicate with handling the backdoor/shadowy parts of their work. My guess is that Trump has done it in such a brazen fashion that the Dems have identified a good opportunity to "get him".
The impeachment of Donald Trump is calculated grandstanding by House Democrats. When the U.S. Senate votes less than 2/3rds to remove, it will be yet another failed attempt to get anything to stick to our sitting president. Gift wrapping another 'win' (which it will be indubitably framed as) to an administration whose national popularity thrives on strong-arming the opposition is an awful idea moving into a 2020 election year.
As long as Trump continues to goose capital markets as he has until next year, I see him steamrolling any candidate the Democrats put forward. It is truly a sad state of affairs for the Democratic party. I look forward to the resignations of top Democratic brass after such tactless and myopic strategic execution over the past four years. Time to reset, rebrand and band around a new vision moving forward.
If there was any doubt before, I am loading up on assets as I think we are in for another 4 years of global market manipulation. This next decade is going to be absolutely fucking wild.
He's sitting on a 42ish% approval rating despite strong markets. Even a slight dip dooms him.
Also, you skirt the obvious here, which is worth pointing out - Mr Trump has goosed the economy in order to bolster his re-election chances, despite the long term damage it may cause to the country. Which is what you'd expect from someone like him.
I don't think
Or holding a corrupt leader to account, which is one of the most American things you can do. Potato Potahto though.
Your predictions are not rooted in reality whatsoever. Polls, recent elections, public opinion - none of them back up what you said.
I do agree with you re: the act being 'patriotic'. But I ask you now, what next? Do you believe the Democrats narrative is stronger than Trump's moving into 2020 after the result? It is my personal belief that Trump wins big here when I postulate future platform messaging impact. The next big shoe to drop will be Trump's taxes @ Supreme Court, Summer 2020.
It is my belief that we are in completely uncharted political territory. Polls were wildly inaccurate last election cycle. We just witnessed an unprecedented landslide election in the U.K. for conservative populism which I believe only lends credence to the global macro trend. Public opinion is arbitrary.
I came here to post some really nuclear takes but you guys all already riled up enough, I love it
You currently have Democratic nominees publicly promising to withhold aid from countries such as Israel under conditions. You have an investigation into an ex-Vice President's son who, after being kicked out of the military for coke, landed a cushy $600k /year job and whose family has ties to Chinese govt money (same goes for Mitch McConnell, before one of you jumps on me for being partisan) . Mind you, this also occurred before said ex-VP announced his presidential bid.
The way this was carried out is a disgrace. The end goal was always "hey we impeached him." The Mueller report has already been forgotten. The narrative has changed too many times for the average person to even tell you why he was impeached. At best, this is a pyrrhic victory for the left as they essentially neutered what is likely to be the first of Trump's two terms.
At worst, this is EXTREMELY DAMAGING for our republic because now the blueprint is set for a party with control of the house but not the senate to wield impeachment as a PR club instead of its actual intended use as a check against the executive branch. When Republicans (after the last breed of neocons gets replaced) control the House and face a Democratic president in the future, they will follow the same blueprint in order to neutralize that President's first term.
3 years of this nonsense. Also, "Orange man bad."
I would put money down right now on the odds that most of the Democratic Party's leadership will be on their way out by 2021. The party is moving far left for American standards and is appealing to humanity's inclination towards tribalism. The same goes for the right. Pick the side that is going to benefit you and your group. The republic is experiencing the fourth turning.
The fact that Pelosi doesn’t want to send the articles of impeachment to the senate demonstrates that this is a publicity stunt.
Like, what is this logic? The senate doesn’t want to impeach so her way of getting them to impeach is to prevent them on being able to vote on impeachment.
This country has gone full retard. Trump is a lifetime leftist, he's gotten into office and continued the lefty agenda like he's done his entire life while he was on TV praising socialized medicine 5x while he donated to Hillary, Kamala, Rahm, Pelosi, Schumer, Rangel and Kerry.
If you claim to be right wing and support Trump, you're a moron. If you claim to be left wing and are against Trump, you're equally stupid.
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