I thought this article was pretty interesting:
BANGALORE, India—Call-center company 24/7 Customer Pvt. Ltd. is desperate to find new recruits who can answer questions by phone and email. It wants to hire 3,000 people this year. Yet in this country of 1.2 billion people, that is beginning to look like an impossible goal.So few of the high school and college graduates who come through the door can communicate effectively in English, and so many lack a grasp of educational basics such as reading comprehension, that the company can hire just three out of every 100 applicants.
Flawed Miracle
The Journal is examining the threats to, and limits of, India's economic ascent.In India, Doubts Gather Over Rising Giant's Course
.India projects an image of a nation churning out hundreds of thousands of students every year who are well educated, a looming threat to the better-paid middle-class workers of the West. Their abilities in math have been cited by President Barack Obama as a reason why the U.S. is facing competitive challenges.Yet 24/7 Customer's experience tells a very different story. Its increasing difficulty finding competent employees in India has forced the company to expand its search to the Philippines and Nicaragua. Most of its 8,000 employees are now based outside of India.
In the nation that made offshoring a household word, 24/7 finds itself so short of talent that it is having to offshore.
"With India's population size, it should be so much easier to find employees," says S. Nagarajan, founder of the company. "Instead, we're scouring every nook and cranny."
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052…
I've seen this first hand studying at top Universities in China. There are literally thousands of people who are all smart and driven, but lacking the inclination to risk-taking or initiative.
I wonder if we'll see a barbelling where American elites, who combine education with a willingness to take big risks, maintain global competitiveness while the lower tier of our educated class gets left behind by the more focused, more precise graduates of these engineer mills.
Interesting intellectual debate you pose Kenny...
I would offer that perception is what continues to drive the opinion that the eastern collegiate graduates are academically superior to those that are in the west. While upon closer examination this perception may appear to be flawed, it allows western corporations and multi-national businesses to continue outsourcing/offshoring because such graduates continue to be a cheap cost of labor by comparison and skewing the "intelligence" perception allows companies to continue this practice.
By willingness to take big risks and having initiative, do you mean the hundreds of kids at ivy league schools who accept grunt jobs at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and McKinsey out of money and uninformed peer perceptions of prestige?
I don't, I actually think that the IB analyst function is probably one of the more vulnerable whitecollar jobs. Finance is also unique in that the profession has a big obsession with risk-taking, business building, etc but is also notoriously soul-crushing and conformity-based. However, many of the real players of Wall Street WERE true risk-takers at one point or another, either by starting a firm (Cohen, Kravis Schwartzman), or steering companies the way Dimon and Weill did with Citigroup.
Yeah it is bullshit anywhere as an analyst but you are proving yourself to the higher ups. Showing them you are reliable, competent and willing to work your ass off to make their job an ounce easier. Obviously we all want to be running our own shit one day, but I for one want to make damn sure i am 100% ready whenever that time comes, jumping in too early is the surest way to fail... These top shops have some of the smartest minds around, your goal should be to learn as much shit as possible while you are there...
Pretty good reads on this topic below. Basic bottom line of the thesis is what vadremc is getting to, that corporations lobby for visas claiming we are getting the world's best and brightest when really it allows them to get lower cost labor.
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/03/an-internal-bra.html
and the accompanying presentation (fairly technical but a good read) that the article is based off:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/georgetown.pdf
Furthermore I firmly believe that the drop in wages and cultural mismatches brought on by this invasion of marginally educated engineers from India and China prevents Americans from considering technical fields in greater numbers. Another data point is the belief that student visas are tools for "exporting democracy," when very few of these guys actually plan on leaving the country. That coupled with the fact that higher education costs are spiraling out of control and major public universities require foreign students paying full tuition to stay solvent means that this won't end.
A
As for the McFactory education in India and the like: this is WHY the US system will retain its dominance. There is a possibility that the math / technical training in Indian programs is better in some cases, but when 80% of these graduates don't have any other base of knowledge, refuse to aquiesce to management, and don't know how to function in an office environment....it seriously detracts from their ability to compete as a general group.
All of the help desk jobs being sourced back to the US or elsewhere demonstrate this beautifully.
This a complex issue, but I'll break it down into very simple general terms. India is a very old and traditional society. At least it was prior to British influence. As a result you have a large psychological seed of insecurity planted in terms of functioning in "Western" institutions within the minds of many Indians. They are just not used to certain social norms we consider "normal" or "natural" to the business environment.
This leads to a populous which is very linear when it comes to thought processes. Fear of making a mistake leading to a strict adherence to policies and procedures. Even when they should clearly be avoided. A common example is people who do well on standardized tests but are horrible in workplace scenarios. You see a lot of that with Indians. You can call it social awkwardness if you want, that element is certainly present. As another bare bones example, I know roughly a dozen Indian guys who have their CFA but are not competent investors or financial counselors. If this sounds strange, you're starting to understand India.
I would say the cultural adaptation to "Western values" has been real slow for many Indians and that it is another example of the unplanned for negative side effects of globalization. IMHO, this problem is only beginning to get worse. Globalization and the "outsource the world" mentality may come natural to us, but the rest of the world is beginning to recoil. Certain things are best left untouched.
Midas,
Could you expound on this? "Globalization and the "outsource the world" mentality may come natural to us, but the rest of the world is beginning to recoil. Certain things are best left untouched.."
Recoil how? Any studies or discussion pieces you can point to? I'd like to read over.
People love the Kool Aid and globalization is probably the best example. There's a prevailing attitude in our media and culture that "it" benefits poor people in third world countries because of the proliferation of Western attitudes and high technology. Thing is, many of these people are not only fine with, but would prefer to live a more indigenous lifestyle. Forcefully opening up these "backwards" markets to our "modern" products is forcing many people to change the lifestyles their families have lived for centuries.
You don't need studies and won't find many papers on this subject. Third world farmers and factory workers do not usually get a lot of attention from the PhD set. What you have happening "on the ground" in a lot of these places is that a small elite is getting very very rich and the ranks of the poor classes are expanding. Overall you have GDP growth and globalization advocates point to this (as well as the new Mickey Deez in the forest/mountain/shanty town) and call it progress. Your best bet to go about gathering sentiment is to read foreign national newspapers. Most of them have English versions and you will read about the concerns of their populations. Better yet dig up websites and use Google's translator feature.
As far as "recoil how" take a look at MENA and what's happening. There's a bigger mess brewing in Russia but Putin's keeping a lid on it. Anyone who tells you the byproducts of globalization aren't a major factor is taking a very one sided approach.
As much as I hate spewing facts, Indians have started the most successful businesses in America of any minority (read the Wikipedia article on Indian Americans). The only successful Asian politicians in America are Indian, there are 2 fucking state governors right now that are Indian. Social awkwardness my ass. However, Indians probably tend to be more unsocial because they value hard skills (engineering, tech, etc.) over soft skills.
Guess what the #1 minority on Wall Street (assuming Jews are white)? That's right.. The Goldman Sachs Board of Directors used to consist of 7 white guys and 2 Indians, but now its just 8 and 1.
The article is pathetically uniformed because it fails to realize that call center jobs are becoming undesirable in India. It's like a McDonald's complaining that its cashiers suck at math. What the fuck can you expect when you pay minimum wage?
EDIT: I got quite a bit of monkey shit thrown at me for this...
I'm sure Goldman is dying to tap into the best and brightest like Rajat Gupta again. Every board of directors needs a guy who will call up a hedge fund manager 23 seconds after board meetings and provide proprietary inside information.
Not the best example you could have made. Might I suggest picking up a Journal every now and then in between electrical engineering tests if you are going to post on here.
Anyone who quotes "wikipedia" should be tarred and feathered. Lol. It's a reference tool, not the leading authority.
Because you are a fucking dumbass if you think Indians in India are comparable to Indians in America. The point of the discussion is not whether Indians have innate talents to succeed, it is whether education in India is competitive.
Anther thing which you guys should know is that Indians no longer like doing these call-center type jobs. These kind of jobs are taken only by high school graduates and students who went to very very low ranked rural universities. The hundreds of thousands who graduate from the prime colleges of India consider it beneath themselves to work in call centers. The people with the skills for these jobs (customer service, presentation etc) prefer better and higher paying jobs in other areas. The people who do want such jobs often need to be trained before-hand. The days of 2003-05 are gone when Indians rushed to call centers for employment.
They don't want those crappy jobs anymore. You should be worried cause it looks like they're building the next Ipad !!
If you will just be a bit patient for 10-15 more years, you will realize just how irrelevant this thread is. The people who are posting their fanciful opinions here have no understanding of economics or what the global economy will look like in 15 years. All the economic projections are indicating that there will be four major pillars of the global economy with China being the largest economy, then USA, EU and shockingly India being more or less equivalent.
With a 3-4:1 population difference I sure would hope that China and India would be among the top countries. Come talk when the per capital GDP is parity.
The IIT system is probably the most demanding university system in the world, bar none. The admission stats are just insane, even relative to HYP. Every graduate I have met has been incredibly sharp, and not just in a number crunching sense.
But, this article brings up a good point. As higher ed becomes seen as the way forward, more universities will appear to cater to that demand. But it won't be just the smartest guys graduating anymore. Look at the vast expansion of low end state schools/for profit colleges in the US. A lot of those graduates are less capable than a high achieving high school student.
I wouldn't be surprised if a similar phenomenon is occurring in India/China. Weren't there a lot of articles a year or two ago talking about rising unemployment for graduates of regional Chinese universities?
We see this in the USA. Look at the managing directors that graduated 30-40 years ago. Regular universities could get you into banking (provided you could overcome the old boys network) because the degrees meant something. Now, even if you are a stellar student and network, your university name might hold you back.
Universities in US go through an accreditation process that ensures the curriculum meets certain standards. The disconnect between HYP and state schools isn't nearly as great as the disconnect between ITT and non-ITT
West Coast, I agree, you can see the same bubble forming in the US with for-profit colleges and third-tier professional schools (MBA/JD).
My response was aimed directly at Midas Mulligan Magoo's 3 paragraph rant, and yes I called people retarded if they believed the bigoted things he did. Don't really see how its deserving of so much monkey shit.
Also, Wikipedia is one of the most accurate sources of information in the world, every fact on there has to be referenced to a reputable source or it will be deleted very quickly by mods. Just cause your high school english teacher said you couldn't use it doesn't mean shit.
What did he say that is so bigoted? Are you saying that Indian culture is not very traditional? Or that a traditional culture couldn't produce a crop of renegades?
That's just insanity right there. Plus it's completely off topic. Indian culture is traditional but it doesn't exactly produce a populous that is very linear when it comes to thought processes. Maybe in the social norm sense but not in the intellectual sense. Yes you can stereotype Indians to be socially awkward, I wouldn't care that much cause it's somewhat reasonable of a stereotype. But his other assumptions are retarded.
I dont think he even remotely implied that Indians lack intellectual horsepower. There are smart people with linear thought processes everywhere, but India, due to a traditional culture, just has a higher percentage of them. I haven't been to India, but out of Indians I interacted with there's a huge difference in the thought process between those raised here (even by traditional parents) and those raised in India.
Chicken Tika anybody?
Please enlighten me on how he's not trying to imply anything about intellect. There's nothing in his rant that differentiates between people raised in India and Indians raised here.
Here's a quote from his rant: "I know roughly a dozen Indian guys who have their CFA but are not competent investors or financial counselors. If this sounds strange, you're starting to understand India."
Now let's translate this to something more people will understand: "I know roughly a dozen black people who have their CFA but are not competent investors or financial counselors. If this sounds strange, you're starting to understand black people."
How is this not outright bigotry?
I love how some minority groups in America address their cultural challenges in the context of black people (ubiquitous) in an attempt to bolster their argument and give credence to their position. It's downright laughable.
"See, if I replace Indian with black, it's racist/racially insensitive/culturally offensive etc. Now do you see?"
Word to the unwise, don't define your predicament within the context of others. You'll only draw more criticism.
"you are starting to understand INDIA" pretty clearly tells me he was talking about the country of India. Is English not you primary language or something?
Vadremc, except that he didn't even replace Indian with black; he replaced India with black.
(basic rules of logic and sentence construction would dictate Africa instead of black, but I guess who cares about such trifles? Besides, this is a clear example of a rebel not following rules. Take that all ye that stereotype against Indians!)
Hey jumpshooter, these people won't get it and we dont owe them any explanation for who we are. Let them keep assuming that India is a nation of socially awkward-curry eating-snake charming people, its their loss.
yeah and don't forget we suck at the workplace so no one should hire us. anyway I'm done with this thread so peace.
Not necessarily awkward, but maybe just not fitting into American culture as easily. Is that offensive?
Wow this whole thing went a really different direction than I expected.
Yea no need to get angry over this. MMM made a generalization based on an anecdotal example of "roughly a dozen." While I can see his comment being stereotypical and rooted in bigotry, I wouldn't go so far as calling it "outright bigoted."
don't know if i understood MMM correctly, but i think what he's trying to say is that india produces a lot of people who want strive to be "successful on paper" or successful in the traditional western sense. the problem is that this creates people who can't think out of the box due to their fears of risk-taking and a whole bunch of engineers who have 0 passion for engineering. it seems to me that indians tend to be more likely to pursue something just for the prestige and honor it will bring to their families. the problem is that all else equal, the passionate ones tend to come out on top.
Disclaimer: I am Indian and worked there last summer, so keep this in mind while reading my post.
I think the dude I'm quoting hit it right on the head. The chief difference between the brightest Indians I saw in India and the brightest people here regardless of race was that Indians are perfectly happy with the following career path (let's assume he/she wants to do engineering): topping in high school => IIT/a couple other prestigious tech schools => engineer at Microsoft/other big name tech company => (maybe) IIM => (maybe) manager of said company/starting their own consulting practice (lots of my relatives are independent consultants with clients globally...serious). If an Indian did that over there, they would be considered extremely well off and most would be extremely satisfied with that lifestyle. The absolute brightest over here, however, would look to either start their own company or get into more white collar work which typically is higher stress and pays more.
Therefore, what people are said about Indians typically being more risk averse is probably correct. As a kid, I as well as most of my friends aspired to be engineers/doctors/scientists, which are all excellent career paths that can afford a rewarding lifestyle and respect in the community, but are more "cookie-cutter" so to speak than VC/PE, etc. You will obviously see a great deal of successful Indian entrepreneurs, Indians in business, etc. because even if 1% of India is risk taking and smart (as in possess both of those qualities), that's still a shit ton of people and of them there are sure to be a fair amount that make it in whatever area they want.
Because there are so many people, it makes it impossible to put a one size fits all tag on them. Generally, they are more risk averse, even among the brightest, but I think that there's still enough of them that are innovative and risk takers to drive the economy. Even in America, a lot of my friends in ivy leagues are very sharp, social guys, but not all of them are wanting to eventually start their own hedge funds and just want to become MD of GS/MS. Becoming an entrepreneur is tough and while Indians might have a lower % becoming them relative to America in terms of the top tier students, I don't necessarily believe that its a fault of the education system for churning out people of this nature. Rather, I think that because so many Indians have grown up in poorer families, the drive to become super rich isn't there yet because what most of the IIT engineers can afford is much more than what their parents can, and risking a lot of that for even more wealth is a tough decision to make. Now once generations pass and they become more accustomed to a certain standard, I think that's when you'll see more risk-taking and innovation really start to come out of the country.
Sorry for the long post but those are my thoughts.
I'm Indian, was born there and have since been back once, and generally dislike most Indians. Intellect aside, there is something lacking in their ability to build rapport with other human beings. They're so competitive and focused on self that it's quite a turn off for most people. Indian cultural values emphasize academic prowess and success over all else, though I'm sure many of you knew this already. It's not that far off from Amy Chua's spiel about Chinese parents.
Also, the children of wealthier Indians in India are absolute brats, but that phenomenon is pretty much cross culturally observed. More or less a My Super Sweet 16 equivalent.
In summary, I'm glad I grew up in the US.
I would watch my Indian Super Sweet 16.
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