Switching IB Groups for FT after SA stint?
Hey all,
I'm going to be starting my SA position in a little over a month now at a BB (GS/MS) and while I'm incredibly happy and excited to have gotten this opportunity, group placement didn't pan out as well as I would have hoped (mostly my fault probably). Regardless, I've been placed into a coverage group that is known to have decent dealflow, but not the best culture/reputation. While I'm planning to wait and see how I mesh with the group over the summer, it isn't an industry I'm interested in and I think that I would like to try to switch into another group for FT if possible (assuming I get a return offer - I'm still going to work as hard as possible and make sure that I perform well even if the group isn't a good fit).
Is it possible to switch coverage groups for FT after the summer? I've heard of some people who have done so but it is usually from a more popular group to a more niche one. In my case, I would likely be trying to switch into a more popular group from a less popular one. The main issue I believe will be the fact that I can't really share that I'm looking to move after the summer, or else I risk getting a return offer at all. I'm nervous that I won't be able to leverage a return offer to switch or that if I try to switch after receiving a return offer and fail to do so, that my return offer would be rescinded.
Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!
With the way the market is right now, I highly doubt this will be possible. That popular group will probably not even be able to extend offers to all of their SAs. Honestly, I would not even mention your desire to do so. I would simply grind it out in the summer and get that return offer.
Not even after potentially getting a return offer? Do you think there is a possibility that they would rescind it just because I might be interested in joining another group? This would only be under the scenario that there were potentially open slots in the group I'd like to move to
That's a pretty slippery slope. Say you do get the return offer for your current group, and then ask about trying to join another one. First off, groups give offers based on the number of slots they have available, and so these groups may not even have availability. Second, and more importantly, asking to join another group after receiving an offer could send the signal that you don't really want to join them. That's fine if you feel that way, but if you use one groups offer to leverage into another group and it doesn't pan out you're going to end putting yourself in somewhat of an awkward spot. Might work out for you though and it's all about how you approach it. Worry about this if/when you do get the offer--you might hate the entire bank.
I would not. As Simshifter451 stated, you would give your group the impression that you do not want to join them.
Crush the summer, get your offer. When HR follows up to see if you're accepting, tell them how much you enjoyed your experience at the firm and how you value what you learned. Mention that while you know banking is right for you and how at home you felt at the firm, say how you've started to develop a strong interest in X-group and ask if there's anyone there you can speak with to explore that interest.
Do it in that exact language. If you speak more explicitly than that, you run the risk of burning bridges or evaporating goodwill (having to accept your current group offer with HR talking with the staffer about your unhappiness there). If you don't mention it at all, you're in the slightly better position of being stuck in the group you don't want but having avoided damaging your reputation
HR isn't silly. Once you've been given an offer, it's their prerogative to not lose you to a competitor. If you approach it the way I said, they'll probably connect you to alumni of your school in that group, or if you somehow got into a top group at a top bank without going to a target, it'll just be random people. Point is, they'll make some intros. Be gracious in those conversations. Don't frame it as "I dislike the other group" - frame it as "I had a pretty strong interest in this group during placement, enjoyed my time over the summer, but have found my interest here to have only grown."
This should work out. If it doesn't, keep your chin up. Realize that (as long as you're recruiting for PE) only the first 9 months matter. Today, it's more like 7. You typically have your offer by January or February at this point, the recruiting cycle has moved so early. Stay positive until you get your offer; then, feel free to clock out. Lots of analysts do.
Thanks so much, this is likely what I'll end up trying to do. Seems like the least risky way to approach things. Really appreciate the advice.
I agree 100%. This happens quite often as summer analysts in coverage groups request to be placed into M&A. It is very doable and not as risky as others say it is. It's all about who you talk to and how you phrase your request.
went through the same situation a while back - happy to walk you through in detail over DM
Will DM you from my other account, this one doesn't have enough posts to do so
You can always shop offer at other top banks' specific coverage groups.
That's my other option but I like the BB model compared to EBs and would prefer to stick with the bank I'll be at this summer if possible
Your mother is a whore!
Did you get placed into MS Services, FIG, or Industrials?
No I didn't
If I found out you were trying to leave my group and then you didn't end up getting into the group you wanted, I would not advocate for you getting a return offer. That is assuming the senior bankers didn't write you off already.
If you're a SA at GS, there is a formal internal mobility program which kicks off in the last few weeks that gives you the opportunity to move within or outside of your division. HCM handles all of that so I'm 99% sure your other group doesn't find out until you get the other offer (unless you tell them). Obviously you should be on top of networking with your target group before the formal process starts, but formal interviews and whatnot are arranged for you through the mobility program.
Don't know about MS but given how commonly people want to move from their SA group I would think they'd also have some sort of system for this.
That's very helpful to know, thank you. I figured that there would be a process for mobility BETWEEN divisions, but didn't know if it would apply to moving WITHIN divisions as well. I'll definitely look into that. I'll guess I'll have to try to network with the group(s) I would rather be in throughout the summer without giving away my true intentions/making anyone suspicious which could be a challenge though.
As someone who went through the formal mobility process as a sophomore summer analyst at MS / JPM / GS, I just want to share that HR/HCM called my group for a recommendation and to find out if I would be receiving a return offer. None of my recruiters communicated that this was part of the process and I only found out when a VP I worked with told me they got a call and gave me a good recommendation.
I'm not sure how the process works at other firms, but I wouldn't count on HR/HCM being hush hush about this. I don't think they're out to get you, but they need to manage the needs of the business at the end of the day so I would expect for things to be communicated on a need to know basis.
I was a SA at a BB last summer and asked HR about switching groups after receiving a return offer. Told them what APAE said above and that I even worked on a deal with their group and really enjoyed the work.
HR's response: You can interview for the other group, but have to give up your FT offer with current group. Bird in hand vs two in the bush... Couple of friends said they had a similar experience with different firms.
I am in a similar situation now that you were in last year. Would you mind posting an update on how you handled it / what the outcome of your SA stint was? I would really appreciate it.
Internal Movement after SA Position (Originally Posted: 02/26/2018)
I'm an incoming SA at BB in a non-traditional role (not IB or S&T) but not BO - think Treasury. I'm curious to see what the chances are to move to a more traditional role like IB/S&T for a FT position after the summer? Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.
Can we get a little bit more info on your background? Either way you're going to need to network like crazy over the summer for a FT position because of how much more competitive it is compared to a SA stint.
For sure, I'm from a non-target with 3.75+ GPA, president of school's endowment, received a few Regional IB offers, but ended up turning them down thinking I could move within the BB for a better position
Ok I'd probably say that in my experience you were probably better with going with those lower MM banks to better leverage your experience but assuming that ship has sailed, get a list of every BB, MM, and boutique bank, pay for LinkedIn premium, and start networking with everyone within their IBD divisions.
The shitty thing about going to a non-target is that top banks use schools as a screen for IQ. You could be the smartest person within that stack but the recruiters are always going to go with the better school / experience. I was previously in a non-prestigious bank role (valuation / treasury) and the idea that having the brand name on the resume never really came to fruition. Your best bet is to try to brake in anywhere starting out (heck you could somehow make it to a BB) then lateral within a year or two to a better bank.
Many BBs have an internal mobility process for summer interns. The problem is that there are many people in the BO as well as other FO divisions (S&T) who apply and want to get into IB. As someone who went through this process at a BB please don't go into your summer internship thinking that you can easily transfer internally.
Moving from Valuation SA to IBD FT (Originally Posted: 06/18/2012)
Hey guys,
I was wondering what the possibilities are for someone who is working as a valuation SA for a fairly reputable valuation shop for full time recruitment. Will I be restricted to MM banks or will I have a chance at any BBs? Also, I am a little more interested in S&T than IBD. Should I even bother applying for S&T or should I stick with IBD? Thanks.
If you want to do S&T, then by all means try to apply for S&T as well. Your experience will be more relevant to an IBD position, but I would take any interview that you can get if I were in your shoes.
Start prepping early on with the technical aspects and get your story down before you land interviews. The last thing you would want is a great outcome on interviews and then spread yourself too thin on the prep and not get any offers. I'd also be careful about applying to both S&T and IBD at the same bank. It could show lack of focus on what you want. I'd spread it out over various firms depending on how networking goes and if you have on campus recruiting (OCR) how that's set up has a lot to do with how you should play it.
Summer analyst internal mobility (Originally Posted: 07/08/2016)
I am a summer analyst in Chicago at a top BB. There's been a change in my family's financial circumstances and I now want to move back closer to home and work in a different regional office for FT. Since there are no positions in my group in this location, I'd have to move groups as well. Can anyone talk about how I should approach internal mobility? Internal mobility apps are due in about a week or so.
I'd talk with your manager, and say that you'd love to work in your group, but be honest and say your family needs support. Ask if he can help make that transition for you. Be prepared for the possibility of not getting an offer though. They're hiring for THAT group.
Since I'm not guaranteed an offer from the mobility groups either, would letting him know be the best move here? I'd like to go back home, but obviously the most important priority for me is securing a return offer - from either office.
Often internal mobility applications require you to withdraw from consideration in your current group. Non-NY/London/HK offices can be hit or miss because they're so small so keep this in mind.
If Im in PWM for the Summer, what division should I try to get into for a FT switch to IBD? (Originally Posted: 03/22/2007)
If Im in PWM for the Summer, which its looking like I will be, what division will raise my chances of getting into IBD when FT interviews roll around next year?
Also when should I start looking to interview for FT?
Obviously Im trying to plan ahead somewhat.
In PWM, be the in group that has the highest AUM. The most you can get out of a PWM that relates with IBD is to learn what the business culture is like; meeting new people, talking to clients, etc.
AUM?
assets under management
PWM is not related to IBD in many ways.
The few commonalities between divisions lie in meeting clients and learning the corporate culture as was stated.
Notice how the financial aspect is not related. That should explain to you why it is difficult to go from PWM to IBD, because the financial work is simply not the same.
summer analyst mobility (Originally Posted: 05/08/2013)
.
There was a thread on here a few weeks ago about this. Long story short: almost impossible. Do a search for it.
2dn year out of 4?
if this is your final summer, it'll be difficult, better luck sticking with your current gig for 2 years then doing mobility.
if this is not your final summer, youre well positioned to ask for a transfer next summer. its possible
Let me understand correctly: you're a sophmore interning in a role different than where you want to be?
Correct?
Apply for FO internships next year. I know PLENTY of people who interned in BO roles and then got FO a year or two later. It also helps to apply to other banks next year. Firm policy is typically 14 months of employment before allowing internal transfers, but there are exceptions.
You could also just transfer schools...
.
All firms tout mobility, but in general it is VERY difficult to move, especially from MO/BO to FO in a BB.
tried it. failed. went to work for another bank the next summer. took a full time offer at the original bank in the job i actually wanted after graduation. always good to have contacts at the first shop for the second go-round
.
Point #1: BO/MO to FO is very tough, it works on a case by case basis from time to time, but does not work most of the other time on most cases
Point #2: The so-called mobility primarily exists within the same division. Say you work in an IBD industry coverage team and want to move to M&A team, that is much easier than if you work in S&T and want to move to IBD
Point #3: You can always try but don't put your hope on this. Better try another bank given you are just a sophomore. Once you have an IBD internship under your belt after your junior year, you can try FT recruiting back at GS
Point #4: Never listen to BS from HR ppl. It is their responsibility and their job to lie every day, whether to insiders or to outsiders.
Keep networking with IBD and you might get a chance and an interview.
Changing from imploding group within BB or lateraling before FT Start? (Originally Posted: 02/15/2014)
Hey guys,
I'm currently a college senior that summered at a top BB in IBD and accepted an offer to go back full time. I had a great summer experience and really liked the people I worked with and I ended up accepting my offer on the spot.
In the months after the summer though, my group lost several key people for whatever reason and now is barely a shell of what it was. I'm still in touch with some of the analysts and they've all told me that dealflow is practically nonexistent now. I have no idea what the future of the group is, but things don't look good right now and I would never have signed my offer if I knew this was going to happen.
Does anyone have advice for how to deal with this situation? Is it too late to ask to move to another group at my BB or to try to lateral somewhere before I start? Thanks for any help.
If you have an offer at a top BB and the group has no deal flow, that sounds like fucking heaven. You get the rep of the group + buyside opps without having to work 120 hours on deals. Consider it a blessing. You will do enough pitching and will get modeling experience either way. Not a big deal.
I think what's already posted is good advice. It's too late to worry about it now, just do as good of a job as you can
mobility from SF to NY (after SA to FT) (Originally Posted: 10/13/2016)
Hi,
I searched around the forum but felt that the other topics were a bit outdated/sparse.
So I have an offer from GS/MS/JPM in San Francisco for banking (non tech) for summer analyst. If I want to end up in New York for full time, how difficult is it to make the geographical switch? Obviously I know there's internal mobility but if that doesn't work out and I participate in general FT recruiting, is the geography switch hard?
I go to school on East Coast and would like to live in NYC but my offer option is just so much better in SF for some reason. And I'd be open to living in SF as well, but it'd be nice to know that there's a chance to go back to NYC if I find that I don't like it.
Thanks.
I did exactly this. I SA'ed in SF (at a different bank than those 3) and am going to the same group but in NYC. One of my buddies did the same thing (at a bank you listed) when he was in college, so there's certainly precedent.
Gotcha, thanks for your response. How hard was that process though/was it competitive? And did the people at SF mind?
Bump!
Bump. How easy/competitive is it to do this? Any further insight/help would be great.
bump
At my MM it's possible but really hard to do. Things have to fall in line (say the NYC SA in your group sucked so there's a spot open) and you have to obviously crush it.
Transferring Return Offer From S&T to IB (Originally Posted: 10/12/2016)
Hey guys,
Curious about if this strategy is possible: I received a return offer for an international bank in Sales and Trading (MUFG, Nomura, BNP, etc). Of course since it is a tight market I will accept if i have no other options but I have been trying to switch into investment banking for some time now. Has anyone ever reached out to their HR after receiving a return offer for one group to try and switch into an investment banking group? If you come for BB backgrounds, this may not be applicable but since these analyst programs are much smaller than BBs, the process of switching divisions is different.
If anyone has any experience or advice on how to approach this, it would be greatly appreciated!
I know of people having done this switch by doing an additional internship in IBD, transferring from capital markets to M&A but not from S&T. But I would say it's worth a shot...
I think odds are extremely low. Only way I see this working is if you know people in IB who can back you, etc. Going blindly is likely to yield nothing at best; at worst, the S&T people will hear about it and your rep will take a hit as they know you don't really want them.
Honestly, I wouldn't do it now. I would take the offer and over time, very cautiously and discretely try to arrange for something.
Reach out to the HR recruiter for IBD and tell them about your strong interest in it(would be good to name drop some people, the more senior the better).
Try to talk to a banker on the IBD side that you know or an alumnus first and seek their counsel. There is no point engaging HR or going through a formal process if there are no spots available. If your S&T colleagues find out, it might not be too pleasant.
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