http://blog.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2007/03/g…
I don't think we should start spending bonuses yet. So it seems most of the international students wont be able to work in the US after graduation, because the US puts a cap of 65,000 H1B visa on skilled workers per year. The cap is because of all these people who want to seem tough on immigration, cuz foreigners are 'stealing' US jobs. How hypocrytical. When almost half of US grad students and a big number of science undergrads are actually international.
So this year it is predicted that the visas will be used up in the first 2 weeks of April, well before anyone gets their diplomas ( a requirement for graduation)Last year I know people from Lehman, GS, and a bunch of people who abroad. This year, even Bill Gates acknowleges that they wont get visas for any of their foreign graduates. So if you were hired by a BB they will take you abroad, most prolly. If you are working for a hedge fund, private equity, or were hired directly to a specific desk, youre fucked...royally. I am
Not really my problem, but why the hell don't they deport the 12 million illegals in this country before denying visas to people who paid for a education in this Country.
While this does not directly concern me, I have a handful of friends who are already being affected by this. For example, a friend of mine who is going back to Lehman after internship is very likely to end up in Hong Kong because of this.
Ridiculous. My international friends are really sweating it now. But, I also have a friend who graduated in December and he still hasn't gotten his work authorization..so could this be affecting December graduates too?
most of us should be fine. they only hire you iff they can sponsor your Visa. of course this means it's much harder to get an analyst job in the first place if you're a foreigner.
if you're starting this summer, your Visa application process through the company's immigration law firm should be over...if not you're in trouble.
i have a hard time believing alstmdrll. companies cannot offer a job in the US and then send the person oversees, unless the offer was not in the US to begin with. these banks are well aware of the h1b cap and other immigration issues. plus, reputable law firms take care of all immigration matters for the banks employees.
First of all, your Visa application process won't start until April 1st because that is when the government starts accepting applications.
Second of all, what do you mean a firm cannot send a person overseas? If you read your contract closely, everything is contingent and at will. When Lehman tells her that they cannot have her b/c of Visa issues, she will have to choose between Lehman HK or nothing.
Google h1 Visa quota 2008 if you want to learn more about it.
Visa application process does start in april but your comapany and immigration law firm should have everything ready way before hand. for instance, i had to submit all my forms in in feb so that they could review everything carefully to make sure i receive my Visa without any problems.
lehman (or any other company) CANNOT offer someone a job specifically in the US, promising a sponsorship for a Visa, and then say HK or nothing after the the person already accepts the position in the US. that would be illegal. of course it's a different story if the offer does not specify where the person would work, although this is highly unlikely since all the offer letters i've seen state exactly where the person would work.
as mentioned the cap will be reached well before people get their degrees. that is the issue. and to file the Visa, people need a degree in hand.
Most people have an OPT period which is usually 1 year or in some cases 9 months, if used for a summer gig.
so starting out you should be fine..at least for 9 months to a year, after which the company might re-file the Visa.
Btw, I am not saying that everyone will be denied. The quota number is currently at 66,000. Of course, some people get their H1 Visa. However, I think people need to get in contact with their HR to make sure that all the required documents are ready to be sent on April 1st.
what was the quota cap previously?
hasn't it always been this bad?
From Wikipedia
"In 1998 the quota was increased first to 115,000 and then, in 2000, to 195,000 visas per year. This increase in the quota seemed to play a role in oversaturating an already softening high-tech job market.
In FY 2004, the quota reverted to 90,000 when the temporary increase passed by Congress in 1999 expired. Since then, the quota is again filling up rapidly every year, making H-1Bs again increasingly hard to get. More recently, the basic quota was left at 65,000 but with an additional 20,000 visas possible for foreign workers with US advanced degrees. Of the 65,000 total, 6,800 are initially reserved for citizens of Chile and Singapore under free trade agreements with those countries;
In 2006, the entire quota of visas for the year beginning October 1, 2006 was exhausted within a span of less than 2 months on May 26[6], and the additional 20,000 Advanced Degree H-1B visas were exhausted on July 26th.
In its annual report on H-1B visas released in November 2006, USCIS stated that it approved 131,000 H-1B visas in FY 2004 and 117,000 in FY 2005. For both years the total number of visas exempt from the quota is about 20,000 suggesting that USCIS is approving substantially more visas than authorized under the law."
Just note that USCIS approval doesnt mean you actually get it, the Visa itself is issued by immigration. So while they might have approved 120,000, only half actually got these visas, the rest, were screwed. And thats part of the problem this year, There is such a huge backlog from people who missed last year, that employers are virtually watching the clock for April 1st. More than half these slots will be filled the first few days, from backlogs
So, it seemes like the best strategy would be to graduate in December. But, then I wonder why is my buddy still without work authorization many months after his December graduation...
Sure makes me happy to be an American.
firms to transfer you for a foreign office like London or HK for a year before refiling your H1. So I second that.
He doesnt have work authorization because they only accept applications from April, but he will most prolly get it cuz he has his diploma in hand (and if hes smart enough to have his application in by April 1st. The reason I believe this cap is ridiculous is because employers know hiring internationals is a pain, they arent dumb. So when they do, its mostly because the people are really qualified. There is application fees, immigration lawyers, the risk that they will have to put you up in London for 6 months after OPT expires, endless. Or actually renege the offer If they could they would hire americans.
I think the problem is the US educational system. Its suprising that so many kids never get to college, and tons of colleges really have shitty education. So alot of the qualified people are international. I can't remember a math or computer science Teaching Assistant I ever had who was american! Thats says alot about the American educational system
Finally, just to highlight how political this 65,000 number is, note that apart from that there is a special Visa category, 10,000 slots reserved from Australians, Australians! Why?!?! No hard feelings to Australians. And while we're at it, they are restricting skilled workers, and they still havent found a solution for the 20 million illegal immigrants. God Bless America
it's ironic that a country built by immigrants imposes such strict laws on skilled/smart people trying to work here legally. but it's good to know that some US citizens are concerned about this matter as well.
for the most part, this should not be a problem because most internationals will be on OPT for their first year to 9 months, and this should tide them over until next April - when the following year's quota become available. If not, the BB/hedge fund/whatever has already sank 9months - 1 year into you and they have a lot vested in you - they'll try to figure something out - be it working from london/hk/tokyo/singapore or something more creative.
in any case, the 20,000 advanced degrees cap is often not reached as quickly as the basic h1-b cap - so the grad students have less to worry about ... regardless, it is an annoyance and i am sure it does play a role in more int'l students choosing to go to london over new york.
Let me tell you guys what OPT alone does not solve the problem completely. Let's say I cannot get my H1 this since I don't have my diploma until May 20th. If I file for Visa around this time, it will be too late to be accepted for H1. I will have to use my OPT which will last one year from July 2007 to July 2008. However, I will have not my H1 issued until October 2008 even though I will file for it on April 2008. During this 3 month gap, I will have to be out of the country as it is an immigration law.
Now, my firm will have to get me out of the country from July 2008 to October 2008, whether be it Hong Kong or London.
That's why OPT doesn't solve the problem for international students.
In my friend's case, Lehman is saying it wants to put her in HK for the whole program, as opposed to the just three month gap. I think the fact that she is from Shenzhen, which is right next to HK, has something to do with it.
i'm having trouble understanding why people already with offers would have trouble with visas. OPT will last until at least a year after graduation. If you really did have a proper offer in the US, by now your company (and law firm) and you should be more than ready to submit the Visa application once USCIS starts taking them in april. the cap gets filled up sometime in may. you work in OPT status until your Visa comes out later this year. so what's the problem?
I'd echo the OPT sentiment. If you're an international student who went to school in the US, you're fine. Barring any (unlikely) difficulties with the OPT, there's really not much you need to worry about, except perhaps the inconvenience of being relocated temporarily for 3 or so months - which, mind you, might even be a pretty solid networking experience. And who knows, you might enjoy working in London more than NY and decide on a permanent transfer.
Anyways, i digress. For those of us who have an offer from NYC, but have not studied in the US (myself included), there's a good probability that we're going to get fucked since we have no recourse through OPT. Only international students on American study permits are allowed to apply for OPT's.
jojajola, one of the required documents is your diploma/certificate saying that you have completed your major. Do seniors have that kind of document on April 1st? No, they don't. That's why the companies cannot file for Visas on April 1st.
alstmdrll, that is NOT true. you just need proof that you will obtain a degree on time. with a little common sense it's easy to see that what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
if you're right, all my international friends graduating in May/June with accepted offers (at a bank or not) would work for a year with OPT, then move oversees for half a year, then come back. hm... does that make any sense?
you should not pretend to know things and post here as facts. if you don't believe me, attend h1b related seminars sponsored by your school's international students office. if your school has a law school, you can go talk to professors specializing in immigration law because that's what i did.
The problem is very simple. Yes, your company would want to apply in April, but for most schools, by that time, you haven't gotten your diploma. Neither have you finished course requirements, so they cant apply. In the past, the quota usually held till sometime in late May/early June. But now, there is a huge backlog, and unless you get your diploma or finish requirements real early, you dont get crap. Most desks dont want someone who wil stay for less than a year then move (personally I had internships every summer that took up part of my year, so I have only 6 months) And we are assuming everyone is working at a big firms, hedge funds and PE firms will dump you. And yes, ive talked to my recruiting office, HR, and even the company immigration lawyers. There are a bunch of ifs, and the best I can do is pray. Otherwise London, if they have a slot
And just so you know, London sucks!
whether you like it or not, I know some first year analysts who are moving to London/Hong Kong for the 3 month gap.
Also, there are some laws that don't make any sense. If H1 were issued in July, rather than October, this problem would not exist. However, that's just the way it is.
You are pretty wrong. The H-1B Visa requirements state that one must have graduated. You need a diploma or an unofficial diploma from your school stating you have met all the requirements and have completed the full course of study. Not that you are going to graduate, but that you have graduated. Now if you want to argue that you are welcome to call any immigration lawyer in town and let us see what they say.
i was confused between OPT and h1b requirements. i apologize for sounding ignorant. i'm a december grad so i guess i'm one of the luckier ones and things just worked out.
"And just so you know, London sucks!"
Disagree buddy. Ibanks in london are a better environment than in the US. The hours are not as bad and overall, you have less of the gungho associates you find in NY or HK. The downside is that the European market is smaller, so you wont be doing as many multibillion deals as you may do in NY, but this shouldnt make a difference anyway, as you're be learning the same stuff. Also, european bankers are less pencilpushers than their US and HK eqwuivalents, so in London you will have a betetr chance of actually learning something useful when you become an associate or move to a hedge fund, rather than spend three years perfecting the formatting of ma powerpoint book or doing comps and precedents.
Don't agree with that either - Square mile is bigger in terms of deals now than wall street - you can look it up.
Plus it's not that easy to transfer to London - it's ridiculously competitive now.
i like london (am in london at the moment). insanely expensive though.
Sorry guys, comment sounded overly pessimisic, but I was thinking more of the social scene. I can count the people I know, and the best thing about NYC is hanging out with friends over the weekend. And as Jimbo said, it is really expensive. Here I can share apartments, there I need to find a hole in the wall, somewhere.
But thats beside the point. My main concern are friends who got hired by HF and PE firms who might have their offers reneged. Last year, I know some kid who couldnt get a trading desk cuz he was gonna take 6 months off! For over a month he just came in and hung out with HR. Now that sucks
If after 9 months of OPT, your ass is shifted to London or HK or wherever, and your peers in NYC are still busting their balls working, how will it affect your bonus, come July 2008?
My OPT is only gonna last through April.
Does anyone know if Congress plans to increase the quota for this year or next (to make up for the backlog), just like they did in 1998?
here's my 2 cents from what i've heard..if the OPT expires before the H1 Visa is issued, referring to the period before October (which is when the Visa is stamped), most big firms who have immigration lawyers backing their operations, either send you to an overseas office for that period or get you on a B1 Visa (which is a business work Visa) till the H1 is stamped. So from what most people have been saying, as long as you've studies in the US, you're safe enough not to get yerself into a Visa mess.
The following activities require a working Visa, and may not be carried out by business visitors: * Running a business. * "Gainful employment". * Payment by an organization within the US. * Participating as a professional in entertainment or sporting events.
Thats from USCIS, B1 cant work cuz you have to get paid, and even if you dont get money from the US office by some arrangement, that still falls under gainful employment. Going abroad is inevitable if you dont get a H1 by October
My comments have been really pessimistic, not to imply that students wont get visas are doomed, but to highlight the ridiculous nature of such laws and bureaucratic inefficiencies that plague USCIS.
my bad on that one. B1 was a case used by a friend wherein he wasnt paid for 2 months and then later covered for in a big bonus.
Anyhow, i believe the L1 allows you to work as long as the company can show you were brought in from an overseas location...which means you still have to travel outside the country. But again, one would have to be quite inventive to get in to such a mess. Make sure you have an OPT that lasts till october when your h1 is applied for in april. then u're as safe as safe could get..
My school is awesome then....whatever internships I do during my school year are taken out of a CPT....I get one full year of each CPT and then OPT after graduation....
"First of all, your Visa application process won't start until April 1st because that is when the government starts accepting applications. " Good point and also for a company to file the Visa you have to proove that all your degree requirements are completed..which you can do only in your last semester...
If you don't get your Visa this year, you can work on OPT and get it next year. You will probably have to go abroad for at least a few months, since OPT usually expires in June but new H1-B visas are not issued until October.
As an aside, if you're an Australian citizen you don't need an H1-B Visa, since there is a special Visa category (E-3) for Australians with a bachelors degree. You should talk to your bank's immigration lawyers to find out if you can get by on an exception like this.
The whole immigration law's really lame. People that have committed felonies by crossing the border illegally go totally forgiven but those of us that pay $200k for college and more thousands for lawyers and Visa processing get stuck in this mess......is Bush trying to REWARD illegal immigration?
I am the first ever international hire at my firm (it's MM) and pretty much had to learn the whole process myself before explaining it to HR. My advice to International Students who are planning to go down the OPT road first: - When you apply for the OPT, unless you absolutely have to start in June / July, pick October 1st for your start date (you can do that with OPT applications). This way, when you apply for H1-B the following year and get it, you won't have the worrisome gap! But of course, that is assuming that your firm is okay with you starting on Oct 1st. Nas
Would be great, but can't work because OPT must begin at latest 60 days after graduation,so unless you graduate in August you will still have the same predicament. Trust me, I think have thought through all possible scenarios!
so the cap has been reached
http://www.uscis.gov/files/pressrelease/H1BFY08Cap040307.pdf
Apparently, there were about 150,000 petitions received as of Monday afternoon. And now the whole lottery deal. Good thing there's OPT out there to cover people for one year and after that let's hope the Congress will raise the cap...
Has anyone actually been relocated to London until their Visa become available? How difficult is it get a spot in an international branch? I am worried that there may not be enough spots for everyone, considering how many more international students were hired by the BB's this year.
Also, what if the cap isn't raised and the same thing happens again next year, when people do not have the option to go on OPT anymore?
Thoughts?
one of my colleagues at work got the lottery...although it's funny because he takes 2 hr lunch breaks, shows up at 9:30, and is generally 'such'the political hire.
hilarious dude.
I really don't think the cap is going to be raised. It's supposed to remain at 65,000. To my knowledge, the government has given no indication that they plan to raise it. So what will happen next year? Well, everyone on OPT this year will apply, and compounded with the new applicants (December graduates, other people applying in April) there will be the same situation this year as the next. So, some people (probably more than half of those who apply) will not get visas and will be forced to relocate or give up their job. In the future, I would imagine that US firms will be extremely hesitant to hire international students knowing full well that there is a good chance the student won't be able to get a Visa.
It's pretty unfair in my opinion. Just because the US can't raise enough intelligent people to fill its jobs, doesn't mean we should keep others out.
I think the US is doing OK on intelligent people. Thanks.
Hahah..I'm American anyway. My point was just that we've got lots of highly qualified foreigners so why not let them come here? I don't buy into the whole "they're stealing Americans jobs"..let the best man (whether he be American, Chinese, Indian, etc.) have the job.
Yeah but Americans are stealing middle east oil and other resources from everywhere else so I guess the whole world's even now. And Americans really need to stop being so entitled. You're not entitled to a job. There is no such thing as Americans' jobs. Whoever's qualified for the job does it.
Please find ONE example of where your above philosophy is actually utilized. There are non. You may have read your free markets section of economics 101 a few too many times. That is definately not how it works, both the common laborer doesn't want his manufacturing job sent over to China, nor does the investment banker want a guy from New Delhi filling his shoes in NYC. You are very naive to think there is some perfectly free flow of employment opportunities, it just doesn't happen.
I try to avoid places that have sent their call centers overseas (Dell, Travelocity, HSBC) because they have taken the civility out of business. They have turned themselves into machines or tape recorders, they have taken the intellect out of easy work. (and yes you need some intellect for even simple tasks)...
Go to hell, take your oil revenue and oil, America will eventually suck the middle east dry and then ship our spent nuclear fuel there after we go nuclear. Watch and see.
Maybe us citizens can use this Visa cap to our advantage. I think we should try to take their places. Becoming an analyst especially from a non-target school is hard so we should take advantage of the Visa problem.
Relax, international students will always have a place. IF not its going to be really hard to fill analyst classes with the calibre of people necessary.
London IBD could overtake NY if thats the case in an extreme scenario. Obviously a LOT would need to happen for that to take place.
How exactly are international students always going to have a place, if more than half of those who apply for visas don't get them? I agree with the previous comments that the quality of international students is what makes them so appealing, but nonetheless it's hard to fathom that a bank (or any US employer) would take on a greater than 50% risk that its new hire couldn't get authorization to work in the US...
To whoever asked about Switzerland - it's my understanding that a lot of other countries are even more protectionist than the US in terms of allowing foreign labor in their country (I believe Australia is particularly strict..I looked into working there - can't beat the weather!). And just in case anyone's curious why an American citizen finds this interesting..I grew up all over the world thanks to my dad's career, so have been hearing about these issues since I was a kid.
I suppose I just don't see the situation staying the way it is with the topic already heavily discussed in congress. Mind you thats completely a guess and this is something I have no idea about.
All I know is my summer class and my current group (both top groups on the street) are atleast 40% international.
It is hard to ignore how much companies are screwed too. Tech companies like Microsoft and top BB firms have tons of international hires. For their undergrads I bet NONE will be able to work in the US without having to go abroad at some point next year (except maybe GS which tried some stunt with applicants whohave had internships, but I don't see it working out). London will be overstaffed, and if the situation doesn't change, many firms may shift some groups to London so that they don't have to hire new people.
Does anyone know of any blogs/newsfeeds that are keeping track of this issue?
I see groups shifting to Toronto before London...45 minute flight vs. 7 hours???? Any sane person would pick the former.
So I did graduate in December of 2006 and the law firm did file the petition on March 30th which means that USCIS should have received the petition on April 2nd itself (the first day when they started to accepted petition since April 1st was a Sunday) . Apparently tey are going to randomly select 65000 people from those whose applications were received on April 2nd or the 3rd. So out of roughly 200000 people, I have about a 30% chance of getting the actual Visa. I suppose London is an option but a lot does depend on your bank and the HR department and they can be extremely cryptic about it. Furthermore London and HK have their own hires so hard sto stuff analysts int their classes. Also getting a Visa next year would as ahrd since there will be a MASSIVE backlog from this and LAST year when may kida were left stranded. So after all the work I put in to actually get the job and all through college... this fucking blows. Who decides on a 65000 and why anyway?
The U.S. government decides. Who else?
And I know at least one person who is now getting his offer revoked, got hired by a HF. Though they say they will try get him interviews in London, and will let him keep his signing. And so the drama begins....
I dont think people are going to get their offers revoked in BB IBDs right? I sure hope so.
dude the H1B cap this year is used up in two DAYs, not two weeks. Yes they are all gone by April 2nd.
Does anyone here know how easy/difficult it is to get a TN Visa for a Canadian national.
PM me if you have any details regarding TN Visa stutus.
I'm an American and I believe its ridiculous, and downright stupid that we don't have more H1B visas. ITs fuckin moronic. Why in gods fuckin name would we want to get rid of the highly qualified workers in this country. Anyone who graduates from an accredited four year institution should receive a work Visa, and after a few years employed in the US , a full Visa.
How fuckin complicated is it honestly. I mean for fucks sake??? Obviously there aren't enough Americans for these jobs, we need people from other countries, not to mention the US was founded by immigrants.
The best way to lose our competitive advantage is to force out all the american educated foreigners and send them back home. Anyone that thinks we shouldnt grant more visas is an idiot, and people shouldn't worry about losing a job to an immigrant, they should worry about keeping their own!
Or worse, send them to Canada. :) After college if I can't get an H1B I'll just say fuck this, I'm going to Toronto.
so whats the situation with you all right now? I've heard of people being transferred to London and Mumbai.
I just heard that an indian friend (whose visa is being processed right now - she made the lottery but still no certainty) being given the option of taking a place with the Mumbai office of a BB (In investment banking, not something else), after her training in NYC. She can take it, or if the visa does not work out, try her luck and stick around for her OPT for 9 more months, with no guarantees of further sponsorship. Any thoughts?
How tough is it for Canadians to get work permits/visas? Are IBs as wary of hiring them as, say, students from China/Korea/India/Middle East?
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