Is GS in the Lehman pre-death state?

orfeas's picture
Rank: Chimp | banana points 6

There is a spreading rumour that GS is going down. This could be very silly. Still, do you know of any guys working for GS right now? Is it true that moral is very low and people are looking to leave?

Comments (38)

May 18, 2010

what on EARTH are you talking about?

do you know why lehman fell? it wasn't because "the moral is very low" and "the people are looking to leave"

May 18, 2010

No one is looking to leave Goldman. This is a witch hunt plain and simple. Really sad how the average man will happily cheer the politicians for creating this mess and who are now exasperating it. The people who have fucked this country the most are residing in Washington DC not Wall St.

May 18, 2010
AnthonyD1982:

No one is looking to leave Goldman. This is a witch hunt plain and simple. Really sad how the average man will happily cheer the politicians for creating this mess and who are now exasperating it. The people who have fucked this country the most are residing in Washington DC not Wall St.

Well put, the American people just don't get it.

CRA, Bush, and Clinton caused the Housing Bubble, Wall St just made it worse.

If we're going to reform Wall St, lets start by reforming Washington DC. I know we live in a Bubble on WSO but people are dying every day in this country from diseases and hunger, both which should be eradicated by now; we've got a city putting an embargo on a State, a State that is ready to default on it's credit, natural disasters destroying our cities, and it costs $30 dollars to fill up a Mercury Sable with regular unleaded.....And all we hear about are CDOs?

Let's get real...

May 18, 2010
m.c.trader:
AnthonyD1982:

No one is looking to leave Goldman. This is a witch hunt plain and simple. Really sad how the average man will happily cheer the politicians for creating this mess and who are now exasperating it. The people who have fucked this country the most are residing in Washington DC not Wall St.

Well put, the American people just don't get it.

CRA, Bush, and Clinton caused the Housing Bubble, Wall St just made it worse.

If we're going to reform Wall St, lets start by reforming Washington DC. I know we live in a Bubble on WSO but people are dying every day in this country from diseases and hunger, both which should be eradicated by now; we've got a city putting an embargo on a State, a State that is ready to default on it's credit, natural disasters destroying our cities, and it costs $30 dollars to fill up a Mercury Sable with regular unleaded.....And all we hear about are CDOs?

Let's get real...

excellent post.... synthetic cdo's sold 3 years ago where GS made a 15 million commission should be the last of our priorities

May 18, 2010
m.c.trader:

and it costs $30 dollars to fill up a Mercury Sable with regular unleaded.....

Eww gross, a Mercury Sable.

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May 18, 2010

Ofcourse not. However, if an institution is starting to decline, then employees (or some of them) get that feeling. Lehman was something completely different. I was just wandering if GS people get a feeling that their company is loosing the grip

May 18, 2010

Stop wandering, they're not. Everything is as it always has been.

People that are all a part of something generally pull together when they are collectively being beat up on.

May 18, 2010

Do you even know why Lehman went into bankruptcy? What parallels could you possibly see between 2008 Lehman and 2010 Goldman?

May 18, 2010

^that's exactly what i asked. this is a completely different case in almost every way other than that they are in the same industry.

and lolz at "wandering"

May 18, 2010

i would short financials still

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May 18, 2010

Goldman's pre-death state? They just set a record for most consecutive profitable trading days, they are on top of the league tables in M&A and Equities, and they are killing every other bank in earnings. Clearly they are not going anywhere.

May 18, 2010
Diamonds:

Goldman's pre-death state? They just set a record for most consecutive profitable trading days, they are on top of the league tables in M&A and Equities, and they are killing every other bank in earnings. Clearly they are not going anywhere.

so was enron...

May 18, 2010
balbasur:
Diamonds:

Goldman's pre-death state? They just set a record for most consecutive profitable trading days, they are on top of the league tables in M&A and Equities, and they are killing every other bank in earnings. Clearly they are not going anywhere.

so was enron...

wtf? why are you bringing enron into this? that was an accounting scandal.

May 18, 2010

No way....

May 18, 2010

That's exactly what I need some idiots to think GS is going down. Buying call options all day.

May 18, 2010

Goldman is easily the dirtiest BB in the recent history of Wall Street. People thought Salomon Brothers was bad, but GS is in a whole different league. I really don't get why other firms on Wall Street still work with it, the people in there are just awful.

The firms and counter-parties that GS dicked into bankruptcy are endless - from commodities firms to fellow BBs

Any large BB controlled by traders is just an awful place, and that is coming from a future trader.

May 18, 2010
RedHill:

Goldman is easily the dirtiest BB in the recent history of Wall Street. People thought Salomon Brothers was bad, but GS is in a whole different league. I really don't get why other firms on Wall Street still work with it, the people in there are just awful.

The firms and counter-parties that GS dicked into bankruptcy are endless - from commodities firms to fellow BBs

Any large BB controlled by traders is just an awful place, and that is coming from a future trader.

Weren't good enough to get an offer from GS? The bitterness really shows.

May 18, 2010
lasered:
RedHill:

Goldman is easily the dirtiest BB in the recent history of Wall Street. People thought Salomon Brothers was bad, but GS is in a whole different league. I really don't get why other firms on Wall Street still work with it, the people in there are just awful.

The firms and counter-parties that GS dicked into bankruptcy are endless - from commodities firms to fellow BBs

Any large BB controlled by traders is just an awful place, and that is coming from a future trader.

Weren't good enough to get an offer from GS? The bitterness really shows.

Never applied...lol

I knew ppl at other firms before recruiting even started, went with that. Doesn't matter where you trade, and honestly lateraling into GS is a much better idea than starting off there. Less likely to be canned, GS likes to fire everyone after 2 years ( legal counsel, analysts IBD, analysts FICC ) I don't really get it. It's like an MBB up-and-out being imposed at a BB.

For example: doing legal work at a company like goldman after law school is the next step down from the big law firms, however, ppl really don't want to work at GS. They fire everyone after 2 years. They pay like 250k, but you'd better start your job search like 6 months in lol.

I would want to work at GS like 2 years before retirement, that way I'd get canned and get like 6 months severance.

May 18, 2010
lasered:
RedHill:

Goldman is easily the dirtiest BB in the recent history of Wall Street. People thought Salomon Brothers was bad, but GS is in a whole different league. I really don't get why other firms on Wall Street still work with it, the people in there are just awful.

The firms and counter-parties that GS dicked into bankruptcy are endless - from commodities firms to fellow BBs

Any large BB controlled by traders is just an awful place, and that is coming from a future trader.

Weren't good enough to get an offer from GS? The bitterness really shows.

Oh come on. That line is so overused. It gets old after a while, and believe or not, not everyone wants to work at GS. It isn't the end all. People can have negative thoughts about firms without their opinions being fueled solely by envy.

The purpose of a forum is discussion, not snarky remarks which provide no value-add. Lasered forwarded his opinion. This is where you respond, instead of attacking him. If you have little substance to respond with, at least try to be a little witty or unique with your comments.

May 20, 2010
openOutcry:

Oh come on. That line is so overused. It gets old after a while, and believe or not, not everyone wants to work at GS. It isn't the end all. People can have negative thoughts about firms without their opinions being fueled solely by envy.

+1. Coming out of college, I interviewed for analytics positions at both Goldman and another firm that was also among the top five trading operations on the street. The other firm seemed to have a lot of people who were passionate about programming and financial mathematics. Goldman had a bunch of guys that looked really tired and didn't enjoy showing up at 7:30 every morning.

Incidentally, the year I signed up for the other firm, they beat Goldman in II's Analytics rankings and continued to do so for three years straight after that.

There's smart people everywhere, and oftentimes, people at other firms are "better" than the people at the "best" firm. There's a fine line between sour grapes and a natural disdain for arrogance, and "sour grapes" happens to be pretty high up on the list of common famous last words.

That said, I see nothing wrong with Goldman right now. That doesn't mean it couldn't turn into a Drexel Burnham in three or four years, and that doesn't mean that potential applicants shouldn't completely ignore that situation- it just means that I'm pretty sure Goldman will survive it.

So the argument was...is this the case for GS? Is it the begining of the end? From your answers I realised that we are not sure. A few years/months ago it would have been ridiculus to make such a statement. It's not a joke any more...

That's really a bad way of framing it. One could say the same thing about any of the other big banks.

The ultimate problem at Goldman might be a culture of hubris. And one of the (IMHO, long-term healthy) things about the universe- something that's been around at least since the Greek myths about threadspinning competitions and wax wings- is that arrogance tends to ultimately make things implode. If Goldman corrects the problem, the firm will be fine. If they don't, they might survive for five, ten, maybe even twenty years, but one day, the wings will melt or they'll win some competition against a vengeful god, and things won't end all that nicely for them.

For now, Goldman employees needn't quit their jobs, sell their stock, or look elsewhere. They just need to be aware that the Goldman culture might have a bit of a hubris problem that might be good to avoid getting too caught up in. If you can't go to McDonald's and tell yourself that the guy taking your order might be just as smart as you are, you might have a hubris problem.

May 18, 2010

I mean just look at the track-record

Drexel, Salomon, Enron, Bear and Lehman... I see a trend here

To clarify my above post, trader firms are not awful places to work at. You'll probably make more money than anyone-else on the street. However, they're crazy volatile and when they go down, it's rather dramatic and without warning.

Enron was ballin' before it went down...but we all know the rest of the story.

May 18, 2010

@ redhill

"future trader" ?

thanks for your informed opinion...

May 18, 2010
diplodocus:

@ redhill

"future trader" ?

thanks for your informed opinion...

current traders belong on dealbreaker

future traders belong on wallstreetoasis

you need to step it up man

Also, all the traders I worked with over the summer told me stories about GS ( mind you ex BSC, Enron etc... ) They try and avoid those guys as much as possible. I'm not sure anyone really likes working with GS. Those guys are wicked smart, but I think a lot of their success is due to the fact they see so much information b/c they have so many clients. Trading with GS is like an IB trading with Glencore, they're selling it to you for a reason, and they know exactly what's going to happen.

Talk to ppl in Honk Kong, you'll hear very interesting stories about products GS china sold to clients.

I think only college kids have a hard-on for GS. Ppl in the industry don't jerk off to it like 21 y/o econ/math majors going for the big leagues.

May 18, 2010

yeah dude i'm future as well but i know i don't have enough knowledge to state hearsay generalizations as fact.

also to say that "only college students have a hard-on for GS" is just fuckin stupid...#1 in league tables (among many other stats) for a reason bro

RedHill:
diplodocus:

@ redhill

"future trader" ?

thanks for your informed opinion...

current traders belong on dealbreaker

future traders belong on wallstreetoasis

you need to step it up man

Also, all the traders I worked with over the summer told me stories about GS ( mind you ex BSC, Enron etc... ) They try and avoid those guys as much as possible. I'm not sure anyone really likes working with GS. Those guys are wicked smart, but I think a lot of their success is due to the fact they see so much information b/c they have so many clients. Trading with GS is like an IB trading with Glencore, they're selling it to you for a reason, and they know exactly what's going to happen.

Talk to ppl in Honk Kong, you'll hear very interesting stories about products GS china sold to clients.

I think only college kids have a hard-on for GS. Ppl in the industry don't jerk off to it like 21 y/o econ/math majors going for the big leagues.

May 18, 2010
diplodocus:

yeah dude i'm future as well but i know i don't have enough knowledge to state hearsay generalizations as fact.

also to say that "only college students have a hard-on for GS" is just fuckin stupid...#1 in league tables (among many other stats) for a reason bro

Wait, what? did someone say league tables?! Goldman, #1?! Shit I knew I should have accepted my offer based on the Q4 Global M&A scorecard.

May 18, 2010

But for how long? At some point there is a tipping point:

comments "like ur good at making money for urself but not us."

It's gonna catch up to them, I'm pretty sure Warren Buffet was only backing them up so he could sell his stuff and GTFO.

In finance they always shine the brightest before going dark. When too many people are watching you, shit happens.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&si...

May 18, 2010

You know, not to take anything away from GS, but growing up I was more interested in working for ML. Always felt like GS was the place to be if you were privileged. Kind of felt like ML was more aggressive, more of a meritocracy. I don't know, just my feelings.

I think GS is great, but on the street people are about making money not the name on their business card. Kind of like everyone wants to be on XYZ sports team, but when you get into pro sports you would play for the shittiest team if they paid you enough.

May 19, 2010
AnthonyD1982:

You know, not to take anything away from GS, but growing up I was more interested in working for ML. Always felt like GS was the place to be if you were privileged. Kind of felt like ML was more aggressive, more of a meritocracy. I don't know, just my feelings.

I think GS is great, but on the street people are about making money not the name on their business card.

Well, ALMOST true:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527487035...

May 18, 2010

Thanks for your comments guys. Just to say... being high in the league rankings is not a proof that a company like GS will still be there after X months. We must consider that the most valuable commodity in this business is your reputation. If this is destroyed....it might be the end of the game (in the long run).

So the argument was...is this the case for GS? Is it the begining of the end? From your answers I realised that we are not sure. A few years/months ago it would have been ridiculus to make such a statement. It's not a joke any more...

May 19, 2010

I'm tired of people I know getting a hard-on over GS IBD; some guy I know was raving about an IM they put out recently as if it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's all the same shite.

May 20, 2010

I see maybe a few parallels between GS and a 1985 Dexel Burnham, but definitely not Lehman or Bear. Every indication is that the firm is pretty healthy.

I don't think anyone has heard of this rumor. Did you come up with this? You know what they say about starting rumors about banks...

May 19, 2010

REDHILL, just a couple of things:

  1. GS isn't going anywhere
  2. It is not a new firm
  3. Buffet always buys long (think 20 years) positions. His stake is a vote of confidence. You find me ONE profitable company that he invested substantially in for less than a month and I will buy you lunch. And GS is killing it right now, so the big W walking away......highly unlikely.
  4. Did you really say, 'I don't get why other firms work with them?' ......uh, they are #1 BECAUSE people want to do business with them. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my current position, but given the chance I would jump there. Lehman on the other hand, routinely dicked people....why do you think no one wanted to help them :)~
  5. They aren't dirty. That is what B/D's do: they sell stuff and they buy stuff. Buyers must excercise their own judgement (some of the 'jilted' companies have VERY sophisticated ER, why they didn't use it is their issue....)
  6. Worst case scenario, they nail the fabster, and maybe pay a few bucks in fines, but the big story is that the politicians need a punching bag right now. Don't worry, next year it will be big pharma. And did we mention the Mexican love fest? ...the public has a very short attention span. That and Lloyd needs to shut up. seriously
  7. In the big picture, bubbles are a function of human nature. Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups. Trying to blame just one thing/person/group is convenient, but inaccurate: like saying the crisis happened because people weren't making loan payments This is buck passing at its best.
  8. GS needs to hire the PR firm the Marine Corps uses. AND Lloyd needs to shut up.
  9. I was trying for a 'ten' list, so maybe someone here can finish it off?
May 20, 2010

^^^
ICEBURN!

Nice, youngblood.

May 18, 2010
h.e.pennypacker:

^^^
ICEBURN!

Nice, youngblood.

I have nothing against the kid, I guess it's just the WSO demographic.

May 20, 2010

Goldman the dirtiest firm since Salomon? Are you on crack? Have you heard of Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stears? These guys were up to their neck in borderline fraudulent asset backed shit WAAAAY worse than Goldman. The only reason Goldman are copping the most flak is because Bear and Lehman don't exist anymore, Merrill is now partially state-owned and MS isn't making anywhere near as much money.

I'm slightly ashamed to admit I am quite enjoying watching Goldman squirm, and they have brought a lot of the criticism on themselves, but get off your high horses.

As for the original post, no Goldman are not in their death throes, and no, public criticism and a civil lawsuit are not whatsoever similar to a bankruptcy. Long term, Cohn and Blankfein are toast though IMO.

May 20, 2010

With the large amount of transparency we have developed over the years after several accounting scandals, trading scandals, and others.... I doubt Goldman has anything major to hide. That being said, calling Goldman dirty is really without a doubt, baseless. There are simply too many eyes on the financial statements. Goldman's strong performance will not make it the same as Lehman. It's just fundamentally impossible.

If SEC finger-pointing Goldman for selling MBS, then ALL banks are guilty of the same crime. Goldman will either survive the lawsuit, or they will bring down the rest of Wallstreet with them to the end of it all.

Will this a story of Americans destroy their own banks? The world is watching. I can see Credit Suisse, BNP Paribas, and Barclays laughing behind their backs.

May 19, 2010
May 20, 2010