is it too late at 45 with a baby on the way to start into IB with barely any relevant experience (just prop trading and some excel VBA coding)
essentially the title...worked a few years building excel sheets for a trading desk and some very basic software developer work (technically was a desk quant, but in retrospect, nothing too fancy)...worked a few years as a rates prop trader...can't do that anymore after QE destroyed relative value, and so would like to reset career. IB or consulting seems to be what i should have done 20 years ago. I can learn fairly quickly, have a commercial mindset, don't mind working 12 hour days (will get a nanny).
is there a way into IB (consulting, M&A, restructuring, etc..) for me?
how would i go about it? 20 years ago i graduated from UMass with a 3.3 GPA in economics. I learned to code on my own (VBA, SQL) and that got me a job as a desk quant many years ago.
Yes
Maybe
I mean I respect trying to get a better future for your kids, but I will say that it will be kinda awkward for the bank to have someone at the lower levels that is older than not just the Associates, but probably some MDs too. As a mof, your potential career path will raise some questions (aka why IB now? And what will your career path look like? Make MD at 60?).
Not saying it is impossible, as I believe there is always a chance, but you will need to have your story not just right, but flawless + either have connections or network like someone has never networked to be able to make it.
If I were you I’d say to try looking for some other position more closely related to trading, where your experience will make it a natural fit. Plus I think you have a far better chance of landing a job paying as much as IB in something trading related than of getting into IB itself. Unless you genuinely want to get into the industry, in which case I can only wish you the best and respect you madly for not giving up.
a childhood friend of mine is an MD at one of the smaller IBs and he made MD 5-10 years ago (i think he's a partner now, not sure how that works). He admits he got lucky lateralling when he did from consulting --> midsize IB --> boutique IB. However, now he works maybe 20-30 hours a week (we've talked about this)...he says he now trusts his team to do all the hard work, and he mostly just consults with CEO / CFO clients. He makes about 1-2mm/year with some variability depending on the year.
anyway, yes, i see your point about why ot would make sense to try to stay within trading, but i'm partially burned out / partially don't see how i can contribute (my skillset is now completely useless...i'll have to learn something new....might as well learning something less risk based)
when i talked to my MD friend, he strongly advised not going into IB just because i wouldn't be able to handle the hours required...but i really don't know what other career to go into that offers the IB exit options. I clearly missed the boat with that concept when choosing rates relative value prop trading as my initial career (20 years ago there was a ton of easy money to be made in rates trading....i joined too late). A few people i know have gone into fintech....but i don't even know what i would do in that space...i feel like i know nothing about it. I almost feel like i am no better than a fresh undergrad from a state school....other than i am a little more mature from working for 20+ years.
i'm even taking some grow with google courses (data analyst, project manager, UX design) just to get back into the habit of learning, and maybe get something out of it.
Feeling a bit lost.....but i need to get a job and generate an income.
A few thoughts based on your posts throughout -
1. Sit down and re-write your initial post describing your background and experience. I understand that you are on an internet forum, but I don't know what you are actually doing today aside from assuming you are prop trading your own money? The whole 'a few years here, a few years there' - start putting together a compelling story of your progression through today, applicable skills, etc.
2. My immediate advice would be to take the above and start reaching out to your network. Rebuild or build a LinkedIn profile for yourself that, again, leverages the above to put yourself out there. Reach out to recruiters - while most people would argue they are useless, and candidly I've never had the best experiences - there are vacancies all over the place and if you can really explain/leverage the experience you have, you might be surprised at some roles out there. I would go across the spectrum - consulting, asset managers, S&T , Fintech, etc. You probably are, but leverage your MD friend as well - but primarily once you've narrowed down or have really discrete asks.
3. This is random, but the number of people I know in finance who jumped to Fintech or startup companies to do things like FP&A or, hell, even bring some modicum of financial modeling and understanding to them is crazy. Since you've got nothing holding you back, I'd suggest there are more opportunities than you'd think across the board for financial understanding and/or skills. Don't sell yourself short. Plus - you are motivated, and frankly... if $100k ish is your number, cheap. Use that. There might even be some crypto funds or others that you could parlay your trading/rates background into.
4. Depending on your network, you should consider fixed income managers as another route - it's a hard one, as investment roles are shrinking and it's hyper competitive - but you might be able to make a run at a trading, quant or potentially analyst role (that could be tough given a lack of background). Even something like a strategy role, although challenging, could be an outside possibility - even a relationship manager role could work, as you have the capital markets background and ostensibly the knowledge. Your age here actually could be your benefit here even, again, if that type of thing appeals to you.
5. Another crazy idea for you, but you asked for this, why not go take a job at one of the millions of place hiring - I've seen stuff that's 20 or 30 bucks an hour, if not more - in the day time, and continue resetting while learning to code? Maybe there's a sales gig or two you could snag. Do an EMBA at night, using the other to pay for it (thus, no nanny). You might not make $100k - but it might help you in resetting your career, learning new skills and pivoting. Maybe it's not an M-7, but there might be some options that help you network or pivot. Like I said, doubtful this is ideal but you don't seem afraid to work hard and put the time in - this might actually end up better avoiding nanny cost, etc.
Anyway - those are some thoughts. The key is building up your backstory, especially if you want to go into finance, and start networking like crazy. I don't think I would recommend IB - there seem to be plenty of ways to make money out there nowadays, and honestly this might be the best opportunity you have to find an alternative path that lets you spend time with your family AND support them. Good luck!
People higher up in the years tend to be more responsible and dedicated to their work. Yeah, the job is probably better for kids either just out of college or a few years out, primarily because they don’t have much else to worry about, but if I were overlooking applications I would certainly pass you on the screening stage for an interview. Responsible, mature 45 y/o with many years of experience > 22 y/o new target grad w/ 2 internships (IMO). They just wouldn’t need to baby you in the beginning, and many of your higher-ups would be closer in age to you. I’m only 24 1/2, so I don’t really know how much that would make a difference, but I’d assume my senior would invite me out to drinks/dinner more often if I was +/- 5 years his age rather than 20 years younger. Go for it. The only thing I can think of that would hurt you is that they may expect you to want to be compensated much more than some recent grads, especially considering your amount of prior experience. Even if you do take an entry level position, you’d probably climb the ranks quicker than colleagues in their early 20’s.
So you have a kid on the way and you're already prepared to make them a second priority and outsource having to take care of him/her? Sounds like you'll be a great dad.....
first priority is generating enough income to provide food + shelter + daycare for the first 4-5 years of my kids life.
i'd happily be a stay at home dad....but that's not an option because then we would be homeless and starve to death.
So working to pay for the daycare that you need in order to work the job that you need to pay for the daycare?
My dad worked two jobs and never really saw him. Only really got to know him when he retired 5 years ago.
And yet I genuinely think he’s been the best dad I could have got. When you are younger you tend to think a good dad is one who is always home and what not. But the older I got, the more I realized I have had a fairly easy life because of the sacrifices my father did: I was never hungry, was never cold, had new shoes when my old ones broke and I got a great education. Moreover, I also understood that no matter how hard it is to never see your father, it is 10x harder to miss out on your kids life.
A father willing to get into a 100 hour/ week job at 45 for their kids will be a great dad. Even if he won’t see his kids that often.
This is absolutely crazy. I started IB in early 30s out of MBA and it was a grind, and still is but I’ve had my reps and things certainly get easier a couple years in. I can’t imagine doing this at 45 w/ a kid. You legit have no idea what back to back to back 100hr weeks will do to you if a bunch of deals or client requests hit at once...hint, it seriously can break people with way more energy and disposable time than you. Find something else...sales maybe?
could you give a few more specific example careers from "sales" which is kinda vague...
As someone who is on the old side (mid 30s VP), I'd say could and should are different things. Maybe you could find someone to give you a shot but should you? Doubtful. The $ / hour worked is pretty bad as a banking junior anyway - maybe go learn coding properly and apply for a tech job?
It's never too late but the further along your life gets the less flexible your trajectory becomes.
You haven't really given a "why". You stated in a previous comment "I really don't know what other career to go into that offers the IB exit options", you want to get enough income to provide for your kid, and you are burnt out from trading. If you are burnt out, do not go into a job search. How the hell are you supposed to be excited and grinding interviews if you aren't at your best. Get your head together, focus on fitness and mental health, and this will improve your ability to strategically plan your next career step and make you a more effective interviewing machine.
On burnout - it seems you are approaching life with a scarcity rather than abundance mindset - comparing yourself to a fresh undergrad from a state school. All these dot dot dots in your replies is depressing. Get your mindset in the right place first. This will help you find your why.
Once you have your why, spend a tiny bit learning about the options. If your why is to simply make enough to bring up your child, this doesn't seem to scream IB is the only way to go. Also, be very specific. Make it "I need to earn $x a year by June 2023 to look after little Johnny". Work out your full budget to get to this specific amount - accom, utilities, nanny costs, etc. Work out job options - FP&A, risk roles, consulting, sales, tech, etc. On working out your options, make sure you take some time to write down everything you are good at (every skill you have), every thing you have done you are proud of, everything you enjoy doing and every project you have completed. Writing these down can help you work out the synergy between you, your skills, and a potential path to your why. For example, have you worked with specific trading software / data providers etc. before? Could you therefor be a perfect salesperson for these products/software/etc as you have been a customer for ages? Having worked in rates markets for ages, I'd assume there are lots of related markets or functions which rely upon a knowledge of this market - some sort of risk/hedging/treasury role?? Government advisory??
If you do all this and you want to go into IB or a related field, start prepping the required skills for interviews, make an absolute standout story explaining your why - which you should have down by then - and network like a mad man, try focusing on others with non-traditional paths (ex-military, ex-sports players, any random career changes, etc). Once you are certain this is what you want to do, you could even hit up your MD friend to ask for advice, then during this ask for an internship. If the last time he said he didn't think you could hack the hours, make sure you have done something which credibly shows you can - ex: "I have studied 14 hours a day for the last 2 weeks to improve my modelling/etc skills".
Hope you find this somewhat useful. It sounds like you really want to sort out your mindset, then your why. Anyone can make a massive career switch like this at any stage but you will need to be incredibly committed and intrinsically motivated. If you go through with this you will need to be an incredibly resilient person and it may take you 1-2 years to break in, but all it takes is to get one person to give you a chance and for you to prove yourself. Same goes for non-IB paths. Best of luck, I hope you are keeping well.
This is the best comment on the thread
Is it objectively too late? No. But I don't think your story quite makes sense. If you have 20 years of markets/rates knowledge and almost no IB knowledge, you won't get much credit for your decades of experience. There are roles that will value you even at 45, IB just is not one of them. The above comment gives better suggestions but I would look more broadly at finance and not just IB.
Why is everyone saying it's not too late? Feels like people like to take the "opposite position" just for the sake of it. Here's my take - yes, it is too late. You don't start IB at 45, you finish it at 45.
This. In what world is it sensible to have a 45 year old analyst / associate?
Why IB? There are paths of much less resistance when it comes to providing for your family. Usually when I hear the excuse that someone is grinding for their loved ones, the deep reality is that it’s their ego warping their motivations. Without a good reason for working in IB I have to presume it’s for prestige. As someone eluded to earlier, you don’t need to make IB money to pay for daycare when you can just be a loving father who’s present. If your kids are truly your priority, you should know that daycare is never going to be as good as your personal commitment. Thus the IB money will never replace your presence as a father.
if you just wanna make decent cash, the obvious answer here is to work in tech. The industry is relatively open to career switchers and a good 5-10 years of dedication is more than enough to reach the top, where you should expect somewhere between 500k-1mm if you can deliver. They are much more supportive of giving parents time to raise their children. You can also springboard from tech to product management, entrepreneurship, crypto, quant / strat, data science, etc. All of which are close enough to finance that you could find your way back on Wall Street.
But what you really need to answer first is why you haven’t been doing work that’s close enough to IB these last 20 years. I sense you’re being dishonest with yourself when you are so quick to disregard FIRV trading and willing to blindly state your interest in IB.
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