Is Morgan Stanley really the lowest paying BB?
Heard from a lot of sources that MS pays terrible bonuses (relative) to other BBs and especially the EBs and that when people complained, the CEO James Gorman said that he doesn't care if they're earning less they should be grateful that they work at MS.
Secondly, I also heard that the culture at MS is extremely brutal with that hard-core old school type of investment banking where you're expected to work your life away in a cut-throat culture.
Are these rumours true?
Mainly heard this about the London office but I assume it applies globally.
Yes
Curious if this is true, but my initial reaction would be no?
They might pay mid-range (which itself is probably much lower than certain EBs/GS) but I feel like UBS/DB/even Citi are known for paying pretty atrocious bonuses? I don’t think MS could compete with JPM/GS if they were paying the lowest out of the BBs/EBs…
Working at MS now, and honestly thinking of jumping ship, it was bearable during wfh, but now...
Could you expand on any details? thx
How is it in comparison to CS
MS IBD culture is correct. Doubting that pay is lowest of the BBs. At least in the UK, MS has historically paid among the highest.
You can pay low when you have high demand
Pretty sure it's Citi at this point.
How? they are in dire straights? The entire healthcare team up and left for EVR
Agree, Citi is materially below peers with above-average hours to boot
What about credit suisse
Fuck incoming at MS here
I get why people take the brand names like JPM, Morgan Stanley or GS, but I don’t understand why the career bankers do it.
It seems like they take pride in saying they work for Morgan Stanley, when their counterpart at other firms like EB’s earn more than they do. Maybe it’s just me, but working at a brand name firm does not help me sleep at night. Money does.
I agree - I'm probably a banker for the next 5 or so years at least and I'd personally rather be somewhere like Guggenheim than Goldman and that's not even a real EB.
I think also career stability/chance of not getting laid off during a market downturn is perceived to be higher at a “too big to fail” bank (post GFC) compared to an EB although I don’t know how valid that perception is in practice.
It's easier to build a career as a senior Director / new MD with the balance sheet and relying on the brand (clients hire the bank / brand more so than the individual banker at places like GS / MS). And once you make MD you don't move around as much because moving is more cumbersome and you've got deferred income tied up in your bank. EBs are a good place to move to once you've established yourself a bit.
Following
As an incoming lateral to MS, reading this makes me wanna kill myself
With Goldman's bonuses last year, MS will have to pay up this year in order to avoid losing talent at the analyst level
Paid 40% for associates
40% of salary as bonus ?
Pay at MS is closer to Barclays and Citi than others and is closer to bottom of the street. To be fair, this used to be GS before last year. But difference is noticeable.
Gorman / Management comment is correct. They would never sacrifice shareholders to give a few $ bonus and think if you complain you’re ungrateful. Vicious cycle because analysts will rationalize by saying the incremental comp doesn’t matter in the long run, but that’s not the point.
Culture is group dependent but old school is correct ie. facetime, politics, hierarchy. Hours are not the worst on the street and have improved with protected weekends. Would expect EB hours to be worse.
There is no clear guidance on protected weekends. As pointed below, depends on the team. Group with the most "formal" policy is Tech. Other groups either (1) pretend to monitor weekend work, which means rushing you to finish stuff Friday before midnight, so you do not report weekend work to the staffer, or (2) straight up do not give a f**ck.
Just spent 2 out of 4 days of Easter Break on a marketing deck. Even friends at sweatiest EBs in London say that this would not fly at their firm.
Cannot comment regarding bonuses as I'm A1, but if they are not good or if I do not exit well I will have an existential crisis.
There aren’t any protected weekends at MS, only a few groups implemented that in London (and those groups are also known for having a better culture).
Pay is pretty on par with other US BBs, so above EU ones, GS just stomped everyone on bonus last year.
Ignore my title, never updated. Or ignore my comment idk
Can we start quantifying these claims? What did MS pay for an1/an2 bonuses last year and the most recent as1/2/3 bonuses?
BUMPPP
I think i saw on the bonus thread a couple months ago an1 bonus was ~60k. Alright for previous years, but definitely didn’t fly for 2021
Xxxxxxx
Over a year removed at this point, but the pay at MS was pretty rubbish when I worked there. Think ~$55k +/- $10K depending on rank for AN1.
Culture was group dependent, but the firm is overall “old school” (the HQ itself is also garbage and look like it was dated decades ago). Pretty bad FT in my group and very hierarchical. The protected weekend policy is an absolute joke also. The rule is supposed to be no weekend BD and no Friday staffings. Can’t say this was ever followed (quite the opposite actually). Good luck ever planning something. If you’re staffed across 5+ active projects, it’s almost a certainty at least one of the MDs will force you to work on some rubbish pitch book on a Sat/Sun.
I doubt this will remain true. MS ruthlessly compares to and competes with GS, and was quick to match the 110/125 base that GS set for an1 an2. GS’s massive bonus payouts last year were a huge surprise given the historical discount and lots of rumors going around MS that bonuses will be on par with GS’s new standard this year (adjusted for a less crazy deal environment, I’m sure)
More likely is GS is going to revert to their historical bonuses
This doesn’t make sense. GS having high one-time bonuses for retention doesn’t mean MS is going to match. If anything, GS will likely revert lower from this year. Happy to be corrected if there’s a source on where you heard that MS bonuses will match GS high bonuses this year, but friends at MS have not heard anything like that.
The MS comp numbers are not difficult to find and are slightly above average at the junior levels. At senior levels, MS has a reputation of not screwing you in a bad year but also being cheaper than they could in a good year. Seniors stay for the culture, the somewhat less volatile comp and the brand whereas those who leave are either pushed out, don't get promoted or go to join an eat what you kill boutique.
They don’t pay dramatically lower. Just take a step back and read how juvenile your statement sounds. A top BB paying its people like crap? C’mon man. Stars would just leave and group heads would get fired for dipping performance.
In fact, even places like Citi, if your boss likes you and you’re considered a top worker, you can get paid.
It’s really much more team dependent and your relationship with your boss. I’m sure some people get screwed, but it’s not a firm wife policy to be cheap.
I will say though that my friends who work at MS say the culture can be needlessly sweaty, even among weak places like corporate banking and risk management.
They told me there has been attrition in the junior ranks across IB, DCM and risk and the hours can be sweaty.
Is the culture at MS GCM any better in comparison to IBD?
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