Is Networking Better Than Doing A MSF Program?
I recently looked at resume books from a couple of msf programs and going through USC's book (link attached below), the placements seemed pretty poor to be completely honest. Only like 2 people went to a BB afterwards (DB NY ER & GS SLC ER), 2-3 in no-name er roles, and 2-3 in no-name ib, and a lot went to something they literally could've done without the degree (one person was in accounting prior and ended in accounting). The program is 67k + whatever the hell housing is & idk how the admission acceptance was 5% given the amount of resumes I saw that had either shit or flat out irrelevant experience. To be completely honest, I think with few exceptions someone with good grades, EC's, internships, etc. from a non-target who is a senior might have a better shot sending 1000+ cold emails to people at MM and satellite offices than applying to most MSF programs that aren't in the MIT/Princeton/UCB/Vandy/Nova/etc caliber.
Speaking of Villanova MSF, it will require a lot of hustling/networking to get an IB job (according to an alumnus I spoke to over the phone)
Lol yeah just realized that. Read this quote:
"I'm sorry, you're a new victim of TNA's blatant marketing of Villanova with no evidence to back up his claims. Their real placement rate is in the 50-60s. Shit even USC is better than that and they're a new program. One could get a boutique IB gig from their shitty undergrad too, why waste a year and money on Villanova which is another shitty school and students and MSF grads still do the hustle on their own to even land those boutique IB gigs. They also send you monster.com job links, LOL, and their their own portal has job ads which require a lot of experience. What a joke. It's true though. Then they say that an MSF is what you make of it to put the blame on you instead. I say: look at Vanderbilt, is their MSF any better? NO. Is there brand better? Not that much. But they still manage to have great career services and they go the extra mile to help you land a job and schools like Villanova use that "make of it" excuse to save themselves. You don't just pay for the education, you pay for the brand and the network and their services that will help you in landing that dream job.
The best thing you can do now is hustle as if your life depends on it or go the PhD route if you like academia(the safer option). A school like Rochester would gladly take you. I personally would've gone to Vanderbilt or skipped the MSF altogether if rejected by Vanderbilt and wait for the MBA." https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/did-i-screw-up-on-my-msf-choice
I think MSF is a big gamble tbh. Many ib people won't know what the fuck it is nor recognize it to a MBA.
The quote sounds about right. A good MSF won't survive without an elite bschool or a top tier parent university (eg Princeton)
Agreed. Also, I think it boils down to what you want to do ultimately
If you are entering your senior year and have been unable to break into IB, your best bet is going to be to start reaching out to boutiques. It costs nothing to spend a year at a boutique and the experience gained from that one year will allow you to lateral to a larger bank should you choose.
The reason that MSF placements are largely poor (outside of MIT and Princeton) is because the students by and large lack experience, not because the schools are failing them. You just cannot graduate from an MSF with no IB internships and expect to break in. It doesn't work that way. Should MSF programs do a better job at explaining exactly what the program is (a highly intensive one-year finance program) and is not (a cure for a lack of experience)? Maybe, but then should we not expect individuals to also do some research before spending tens of thousands of dollars on a degree? Probably.
I Agree 100%. Most programs really only serve the purpose of a very in-depth knowledge of finance/more quanty stuff at MIT/Princeton type schools. Unfortunately, they all cost around 60-70k + whatever housing is and we'll just say the additional opportunity cost of ~50k that someone could've been making in a run-of-the-mill FP&A job. In my humble opinion, I think someone who strikes out of Junior SA recruiting should just get a boutique internship & network like a mad man with MM, boutique, and satellite offices for FT than going to most msf programs. You're basically paying over 90k to be in school another year when you might be better off just hustling in undergrad from junior-senior year, doing level one of the cfa, networking like crazy, etc. that will at most cost 1-2k.
It's obviously tougher the closer you are to graduating or if you've been out of school for some time.
1) that resume book is for kids in the program. Those jobs are what they had coming into the program.
2) that quote you posted is bullshit. I spoke at length on the phone with that person and Villanova was chosen after I recommended another school. Please find one post where I say IB is a slam dunk from any school.
You won't. I always advise that students need to work hard.
As for networking is better, that's a simplistic answer. Not everyone can just network into a job once they graduate.
What I'm saying is someone who is a junior & struck out of Sa might be better served just networking for FT recruiting & casting a wide net than being BB or bust at some of these MSF programs that cost 80-90k.
In my program we had kids go to Stifel, HSBC, a PhD program, SwissRe, Duff and Phelps, I went to a respected leverage shop, cat insurance firm, etc. some boutiques, a local bank in credit, Bloomberg.
All respectable placements and better than what people had coming into the program.
If you can network into one of these roles, do so. But you need to have a job with some type of relevant skills and be in a metro where you can do this. Most MSF students have no alumni bench, are in a job that isn't ideal and have no MBA path. The MSF is a one year, relatively cheap way to get a graduate education, a better network, another shot at OCR and the ability to change career trajectories.
Banking is hard to get, but TAS, valuation shops, F500 rotational programs, larger bank credit roles, etc are all obtainable. This will set you up for the future.
Furthermore, it's a grad degree, not an IB cert program. People get shit jobs from MBA programs as well. You can't be a bum and expect a job the be handed to you.
Also, in the 8 years I've been doing msf shit, the majority never do an MBA. They get into their career and after 3-4 years of experience they continue on. It's a focused grad degree and people respect it more as you get older.
I also want to reiterate a point that I take seriously. I never tell people shits a slam dunk. I've never shilled for Nova. I loved the program, but I had to hustle.
People need to take ownership. I'm sorry, but this is the adult world and shit has consequences. I've written a hundred times that you need to hustle the second you accept the offer. Nothing is guaranteed.
A junior should be exhausting all avenues to get a job from UG before thinking about a masters.
I don't know. I had different goals. The standard WSOer has an IB or bust mentality but I wasn't aiming for IB. I quickly came to the realization that I wasn't competitive for it, so I focused my attention elsewhere. So in terms of my own personal goals, the program delivered. Whatever you do beyond your first job is on you. I worked my ass off during the program and after and now I'm in a pretty decent spot - one that I'm happy with.
That said, I know people from my program that weren't satisfied. One kid ended up in MM IB and transitioned into a FOF making somewhere between $200k/$250k a year. He's 25 now and still doesn't think the program was worth it. To me, that's crazy. I know another guy, around the same age now, working in CREPE making close to $200k a year. He had no real professional experience before the program. He's happy with it.
At the end of the day, an MSF program will only show you the door. You'll have to work to go through it. You'll have the opportunity to actually learn finance. You'll get an education. You'll also get another shot at recruiting. Beyond that, it's on you (unless you're at MIT/Vandy, where the schools have legit recruiting channels).
Not a great answer to the question, but it really does depend.
That makes sense. I agree that the ib circle jerk is pretty insane on this site but ER & am are pretty hard to get too, if not harder. For the most part, a lot of shops are only putting any emphasis on ER and AM recruiting to b-schools. I think some may disagree with me but I think if someone has a good enough job lined up that can put them into a top 10-20 b-school it is probably not worth it to get a MSF.
I agree with this.
[EDIT] But to be clear, depending on the program, there is a significant portion that gets those jobs. When I say 'significant,' I mean 10% - 30% of the pop. My class had 35% IB/ER/AM placement (real IB/ER/AM placement).
This is total BS. At 25 no matter how lucrative the industry is, you can't be making anywhere close to 200-250k.
You have no clue what you're talking about. Ask any PE associate at a decent sized shop and they will tell you 200-250k+ is far from impossible.
He graduated college in 2 years
My Name is Jeff read this if you get the chance
the TL;DR is Duvall Blacklisted USC from all FO recruiting with his GS video.
And how did you find that out?
Damn
DUDE WHAT THE FUCK?!?!??! He's at GS now? I think this deserves its own post.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-t-duval/
Here's What I did. I was an international and I knew that none of the MSFs in US or Europe were worth it for me. I did a local MSF (last semester) with a great curriculum but poor brand even in my country(but I chose it for the curriculum). Did an internship at Big 4 deals advisory after 2nd semester(it's a 1.5 year MSF) and now have a FT job lined up at Big 4 deals advisory. The internship was unpaid and it needed some networking, mostly just cold calling.
I'm going to work at big 4 for at least 2 years, then try to transition to AM or IB in Dubai, and will apply to MBAs after another 2-3 years. I'm not sure if this is helpful but if you're GPA is good and can get a good gmat score, try to get into Vanderbilt MSF. But before that, try networking because if you can skip the MSF altogether, that would be the best option!
Dumbest strategy ever, if you would have gone to LSE/HEC/Bocconi/St Gallen and were just average there, Big4 would be your fuck up option and you would have a decent shot for elite boutiques/BB but you chose Bahria University and probably big4 in PAKISTAN, what do you make there like 5k per year?
Lmao, Tobinco Pakistan.
That is not true. Getting an elite boutique/BB out of European programs is an uphill battle unless it's MIT or Oxford which is hard to get into. Most of the grads who get IB IN UK are in fact Europeans who don't have to deal with sponsorship/Visa problems. And IB in Middle East or South Asia(where I live) is too limited and it's kinda hard to break in because there's little room for expansion. Here, a top IB group is a 15 members team and it's not a BB.
If I got into MIT or Oxford or even Vanderbilt, I would definitely go. Other programs are shit.
Is the reason you failed to execute on ib interviews because your skills are lacking or because of something with your recruiting strategy?
If you need more skills, do an MSF. If you need a foot in the door, network.
I'm not recruiting for FT right now.
The point still stands - better for what? Learning about finance? Getting a job? Well, it depends what you know about finance. Basically, the question is meaningless in a vacuum. It depends entirely on the candidate, his/her strengths and weaknesses, and what his or her goals are.
From what I have read over the time I have been on this forum, and knowing people in the industry.
Having someone able to recc'd your name over to a MD directly > Any form of education that can be provided.
This is a relationship-driven business, right?
I love how pragmatic that was. Some folks just wont get it, relationships matter period. I mean why would an MD go through all the stack of resumes when he has one right in front of him before they even think of interviewing "potential candidates". Its that simple, your network is your net worth (as corny as it sounds).
Thanks for the SB, one back at ya.
Agree absolutely.
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