Is suicide ever acceptable?
Every second, 4 people are born, and 2 people die. Every 40 seconds, 1 person commits suicide.
In some Western countries, it's deadlier than car accidents.
One of my favorite philosophers, Albert Camus, famously said (and I quote)- "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy."
It seems like society generally ignores this conundrum - we'd rather not think about it.
And when it is talked about, we speculate at "how bad his/her life must have been" to commit such an act. But of course, we cannot know for sure. Perhaps they were bored with going through the daily motions.
I'm curious to know if you guys ever
a) thought about it
b) would take a stab at it (don't mind the pun)
c) think maybe, just maybe, some people kill themselves out of sheer boredom of life / monotony.
If you have a terminal illness and are in a lot of pain, I think it's a perfectly acceptable course of action. If you committed heinous crimes and off yourself, you're doing society a favor and that would actually be good.
If your college girlfriend just broke up with you or something similar, not acceptable.
a) thought about it momentarily, but the reason was honestly stupid b) no, i think life has too much in it and it's too beautiful c) no, again, i think life has too much in it and there's so many things you can do and learn new things everything
I don't know a man who hasn't thought about it, most of the time it relates to a woman - according to the guys who have spoken honestly about it. However, tends to be a phase. Never tried it, generally had something worthwhile. And yes, guarantee you that people have offed themselves due to monotony.
Ultimately, I don't see it as acceptable. It is an incredibly selfish act. It shows everyone you don't care for them and figured the muzzle of a 1911 was better for consultation. Trust me, life is fast and the velocity is only increasing as you go. Something or someone will get you one day, why have it be yourself?
Truer words have never been spoken.
Hitler's suicide was pretty acceptable
What's interesting is that generally people who commit suicide come from economically developed countries, and suicide rates are much lower in poorer countries. Seems odd, considering by most quantifiable metrics, people in developed countries have been qualities of life. It's definitely can't be boiled down as easily as it is perceived to be.
Yeah, I read an article saying something similar, referring to a paradox that essentially people who live in third world countries, no clean water, no electricity, etc. have a lower rate of suicide than that of the western world.
Essentially, suicide seems to be ironically an issue exclusively in countries that have a higher quality of life.
Personally, I think that unless it is stopping immense pain or suffering, the act of suicide is an incredibly selfish act. Coming from someone who has known individuals who have taken this route, the repercussions of this are rather astronomical. I think there is always ways to treat these scenarios, especially when you are young and have your whole life ahead of you.
I've thought about it quite a bit, as I've struggled with major depressive disorder in the past. I won't go into detail, but the reason for these feelings, for me, was pretty hard to pin down, which I think is because these thoughts aren't always because of a simple cause and effect relationship.
Did you end up securing the bag? Bless up dude, hope you are doing better now :)
I am far too egotistical to have thought about it, even at my lowest.
Suicide is an incredibly selfish act too. The ultimate shirking of responsibilities while leaving everyone who remains with the figurative, or literal, mess.
Those who consider it selfish on those that commit suicide are really the ones being selfish.
Explain your logic please
Death by design, is cheating.
Camus emphasizes the fact that happiness is fleeting and that the human condition is one of mortality; for Camus, this is cause for a greater appreciation for life and happiness.
When I was going through some difficult times, my dad told me that when he was younger and had fleeting thoughts of suicide, he'd say, "Well if I'm going to kill myself, that would mean nothing I'd do matters, so why can't I do whatever I want now?" After hearing that, I really don't think suicide, unless you have some awful terminal disease, is acceptable.
I've definitely had this idea before, and I have found that, for me, it's a positive mindset to have for someone who frequently has suicidal thoughts. If my life really doesn't matter, and is all but hopeless, why not live like it really doesn't matter, given the consequences won't matter once I am dead? For me, this has led me to take shots and chase opportunities that I otherwise wouldn't have because of fear of the consequences.
Camus, one of my personal favorites. You took this from "The Myth of Sysiphus," no?
Notice the different opinions of each individual stating when they think it would be ok to kill themselves. All of this is a non-issue to the person doing the dying.I don't think its a question of whether or not its acceptable to other, but acceptable to you. This seems to be your question, "why does suicide have a negative stigma in society?"
I think it is because people see it as the easy way, and think the people who killed themselves where mentally unstable or some cocktail of negative sentiments - until it happens to someone they love, then they do a 360. N
Personally, I see suicide as unnatural because other animal species don't, to my knowledge, kill themselves. I also think it is of 0 regard what the consequences of suicide are to the person killing themselves, because they would be dead. Once you are dead nothing to do with your body matters because....you know... YOU ARE DEAD. It only matters to people who cared about the person who killed themselves. My idea applies regardless of what you believe happens after you die.
Isn't Camus just some nihilist? Isn't he also some type of post-modernist Nietzscheian? aka the cancer the left us with SJWs....
I don't understand why nihilists won't commit suicide, it honestly makes sense for them...
no Camus' philosophy is a 180 from nihilism... Appreciating the "absurde" can give meaning to life, rather than strip it from purpose.
Hey, just FYI, I say this in the gentlest manner possible, I know you're presenting this as more of a philosophical conundrum, but on the off chance that you are actually considering this as a personal option, please don't. The world deserves to have you in it boss. Feel free to DM
Suicide Discussion (Originally Posted: 07/18/2012)
So, some peeps from my floor and I were discussing the situation with the banker who committed suicide in the courtroom. There was quite a heated discussion, but the group could be divided into those who thought that what he did was bad-ass, and mostly religious peeps who though it was morally despicable. I would like to discuss this further, but in a different context. Is suicide justified if the costs of living (for the banker in question it would have been 16 years of butt-rape in prison) outweigh the benefits? IMO, suicide is only justified when you are out of commission (life circumstances are such that you can no longer compete in the capitalistic jungle). Thoughts?
I am not going to discuss this from a religious angle, so here the neutral view:
Suicide is not justified in my opinion as almost anything can be dealt with in life, even a prison sentence. If you can handle the politics in a bank you should be able to deal with your inmates.
Does anybody think that a disease/terminal illness justifies taking your own life? I don't.
I do think that a disease/terminal illness justifies taking your own life and I wish they still allowed assisted suicide. My rationale for this is that as humans we are humane enough to put wounded animals out of their misery, why can't we do the same for our own kind. Why force people to suffer for a month when the end result is inevitable?
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Personally, I am against it, but ideologically, everyone has self-determination and the right to do anything they want.
However, life can always be improved, in my opinion it is almost always worth living. As long as we have some degree free will (debatable in itself), life is worth living.
Since nothing comes after life, you only get one shot - make the best of it. Restrospectively, you cannot change your past, but you can make the best of your future. The cards are given to you, but you play the hand.
I doubt the banker would be put in the same cell or even the same prison as anyone dangerous enough to actually rape someone in prison. I know its a joke but some people take it as fact that prison = male rape. That said, 16 years in prison when you are that old, not to mention the damage to your reputation and your social circle can be enough to do some people in. I don't think I can say I could have powered through it if I was put in the same situation, but people certainly have in the past.
Suicide = natural selection at it's finest
I'd do the same in his shoes. I also support assisted suicide for older people (ie, your grandma just died and your gramps has a terminal disease, he can choose to end it)
If you want to kill yourself you should have the right to.
just playin dawg! but if you want to, go for it - like you said it should be your right
I think assisted suicide should be available to people with long prison sentences...it could really cut costs significantly.
Always struck me as a cop-out. Plus this guy definitely deserved to spend some time in prison reflecting on his stupidity: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/10/justice/arizona-courtroom-death/index…
Whats badass about enduring all of the humiliation of being charged with a crime and then offing yourself with pills before you even go to a white collar prison?
No comment on the morality of it. I don't think most people who seriously consider the idea are 'reasonable' at the moment, so it's kind of a case by case thing considering WHY they're suicidal. Honestly though, if you're considering suicide, please seek professional help, clinical depression is a real illness just like cancer or the flu...it's just not as visible. It's also very fixable, and many very successful people have overcome it. Consider the story of Edgar Allen Poe: the day after he was found dead in a gutter, a huge check from a publisher came.
Stick around, you never know what tomorrow will bring.
I would love to hear the logic of those folks who thought this was "bad-ass". How could anyone watch that and think "Wow that was pretty bad-ass"? lol
I wouldn't exactly call it bad-ass, but I definitely wouldn't call it morally despicable either. I do think it is his choice to make, but would he have made the same decision a few months or even weeks down the line? I think not, which is why I have no problem with it being anathema to the religious nutters out there.
To answer OP's question, the cost of living never outweigh the benefits. That's just fucking stupid. Okay, maybe we can debate the situation of 95 year olds and assisted suicide, but like others who commented here, I view suicide more as a cop-out then anything else, and it's very sad because everything ends up being okay in the end.
very interesting / mature opinions, great to hear them
I don't think it's morally wrong. I just see it as a choice, although it's usually an irrational one. Though I'd agree that there's usually a better solution, I've seen ugly before and I can imagine a situation where someone really just can't enjoy life and all they're physically capable of experiencing is pain or unhappiness, and maybe it would make sense. The thing is you really don't know what's going on inside someone else's head, so I don't think it's fair to judge someone and say they were right or wrong, selfish or irrational, etc.
I don't think it's right to hold a strong opinion about something you don't fully understand, and even though I have some experience in this department, I still would never feel right judging someone's suicide. I understand the religious aspect of it, but considering I'm not religious, I have no room to talk about that either, though it makes it understandable that some people are very against suicide.
I'm a big believer in self-determination, so I don't see anything morally wrong.
Pretty weak/shortsighted decision though. There are guys serving sentences twice his length getting their bunghole rammed in the showers on a daily basis who choose to not take the easy way out.
And I'm sure he could have worked out an early release with good behavior. Is arson even considered a violent crime in Arizona?
No but immigration is!
Suicide (Originally Posted: 03/01/2012)
Do you guys know of anyone you knew personally who actually committed suicide? Describe.
I just found out today that one kid from my high school gym class killed himself. I never got to know him that well, but I could tell he was a cool kid. He jumped off a roof of a building. I just heard about this from talking to my high school friend. Pretty sad. The kid was a very outgoing and nice guy, so I don't know what the fuck happened to him. He will be missed. RIP
Mental illness is pretty bad in my family. Had one uncle commit suicide (.22 to the head) and another basically commit suicide (ignored heart issues). I've battle depression too.
This type of stuff is a disease just as much as any other. It's a malfunction of your brain and can be treated with medication. It makes just as much sense to kill yourself for having a broken leg.
yeah. if you are in good health, it is always a bad idea. don't do it.
Sadly, I've known a few people who have committed suicide. It's extremely fucked up and disturbing. One person who did was a top student at our high school and was attending a top technical university (Caltech, etc.)... he was always a little bit strange but he was also well-liked and has sort of a special reputation around the school for being extremely smart... I always thought he was going to win a nobel prize in physics or something.
Someone from my town did...but he had a really tough childhood, like abusive parents and stuff. He was a really nice kid, but got tons of crap for being "off" or "weird"..pretty shitty...he was really young too
I know 3. One was a totally happy go lucky guy that you would have never expected i from. Always upbeat, nice family life, etc. Another was super smart and got a full ride to a top school. Was super popular and also seemed real happy. Did a lot of drugs though. The third grew up really poor and had a rougher life. Had kids when he did it. None of them seemed disturbed or had messed up childhoods either. Depression isn't something to mess around with and is serious. I've also had a few friends die in Iraq. Only thing you can do is try to remember the good things about them.
most morbid thread on wso ever? ;x
not really suicide but a kid from my HS who just had a baby girl and was gonna get married (a few years after i graduated HS and he was a year or two older mind you) was throwing roofing tiles off the roof of a building, it snagged his jacket and threw him off balance which sent him hurtling 3 or 4 stories off of a building and into the 500 degree 300 gallon vat of tar down below. ;\
I know a few, mainly classmates (no close friends have died, but I definitely have close friends who have attempted). It's actually pretty upsetting, especially given the school that I attend. It's a very "every man for himself" environment, so individuals who are troubled usually don't reach out when they need it most, and people brush things off as "attention-seeking" or being "weak".
Yeah, it sucks.
This may be fucked up but I think commiting suicide is one of the MOST selfish acts known to man...
Leave it to sexy_like_enrique to make a thread almost as shitty as his username once again.
??
If you don't like the topic of this thread, or others I started, then don't read them, you fucking retard.
There are few other subject matters that are more saddening and senseless...
The Ohio school shooting hit me hard... herd one of the kids who died took up a little job to help buy a car... he never even recieved his 1st check, parents said he'll be buried with it.
i disagree -- the sadness that comes out of someone dying, esp suddenly and ESPECIALLY when its at their own hands is very traumatic for anyone who knew that person. a female friend of mine walked into the closet one morning and found that her boyfriend hung himself in the middle of the night with no sign of anything -- they had been living together for two years. that being said, the majority of the time when people commit suicide it usually isnt due to a 'life ending' (excuse the irony) event but usually a rough patch. with the correct support and aid theyll smooth things out, as we all do, and then move on and continue to be there for their family and realize how thankful they are to have people in their lives.
whether its selfish or nt is secondary to the fact that its a person in a very dark place at the time ut they can push on through the struggle
And who are we to know whether or not this person could or could not have gotten through it. It's very possible that many people who commit suicide would get through it and be fine. It's also possible that they wouldn't. A person has to make their own choice whether or not they want to live. It's not anyone elses place to do that for them.
and to follow up my more 'intellectual' discourse above i will follo with this extremely graphic and fucked up story of a friend of mine
DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU ARE FAINT OF HEART OR MIND
my friend madeline was a group home counselor for troubled people (and teens maybe?) either stemming from psychological disorders or from other errant behavior. her sister had committed suicide years ago, and she got a call one night that one of her clients at the group home was threatening to commit suicide and she rushed over both due to her experience with the trauma and also since she was close to him. I think the guy was in his late teens, some obvious mental issues, but he was also paralyzed from the waist down and I think he didnt have sensation below his chest at all either so maybe chest down. she arrived and found the kid in his wheelchair, wielding a large chef's knife and wildly flailing it around while he was backed into a corner of the room so no one could get to him. after a few minutes of the cops being called and her trying to talk to him, the kid, without any sensation in his legs, began to plunge the blade repeatedly into his thighs -- over and over.. blood was spraying everywhere but there was nothing anyone could really do because he would still flail the blade about. after many gouging wounds, the kid raised the blade out of his thighs and impaled himself in the stomach with it -- maddy rushed over but it was too late and the kid raked the blade across his stomach in a traditional hari kari belly slitting technique. blood went everywhere, his entrails fell out and she was screaming as untold amounts of blood and his intestines were in her hands as he tried to help him.
needless to say she took a couple weeks off and had some hardcore counseling after that.
leave it to sexy to post more stupid bullshit that isn't remotely related to finance.
a healthy individual who commits suicide = total waste. end of story. past the age of 20 everyone knows a bunch of people who committed suicide. some people you knew well. why would anyone want to cheapen their memories by sharing their stories with some nosey internet squirrel.
Enrique, I'm sorry for your loss. I hope this conversation gives you some perspective, as it seems that more than a few posters have had some experience with the issue, and have varying reactions as well. It's a good reminder: if you're ever not doing ok, then get help.
Life can truly suck but it can also be very VERY good, and in the vast majority of cases, things can be fixed and turned around into truly awesome situations with just a little effort. Trust me on this. Regardless of what gets said here one way or the other on the issue, you don't ever want to be that kid.
There was a kid at my high school when I was a senior who committed suicide. Really depressing thing to happen during the spring of our senior year, really hit the whole school hard. He was in my gym class, but I didn't know him well. The fucked up part was his younger cousin was the one who found him hanging from a beam under their patio. I can't fathom the emotional trauma of finding your cousin after he had hanged himself...
I work in the disaster restoration industry (working my way through college), I'm the only one in my company (of 23) certified to do sucide clean up. And I feel like I'm the only one mentally equiped to handle it. I've done 6 jobs and they have ranged from hangings to gunshots to the head. Each situation is very different, to say it is selfish just shows how little you know about it.
I suppose you have seen the movie Sunshine Cleaning?
Amphipathic- Its nothing like sunshine cleaning. Think hazmat suits double layers of gloves and powerful ozone machines. Lots of times the bodies have been sitting for a few days and some really scary diseases can result from dead bodies.
GentlemanJack- Yeah we mainly do mold and water remediation, but trama and sucide clean up are part of what we do. I get a nice bonus check (for a student) every time we get a bloody job because no one else really wants to do it. I've seen some crazy situations, but I don't really ever talk about it unless someone starts asking. It can really freak a lot of people out. My GF thinks its crazy lol.
/nohomo
Don't jump Enrique! Just keep collabing with Pitbull and you'll get through it!
I prefer Usher to Pitbull. That's the problem...
Throwing my post in here as a deterrent for my own suicide next month.
I have survived a full blown suicide attempt, and have had several attempts where people physically stopped me from being able to carry through with my plans. None of this makes me an authority, but I wanted to share my thoughts because it's not always as simple as selfishly leaving everyone else behind.
There are many situational reasons why someone may want to end their life. Much of the time, someone's reaction to them can be mitigated over time. There are also some experiences that are more organic that can cause anguish and excruciating pain. It's not always depression - bipolar disorder has the highest suicide rate, and schizophrenia is also really dangerous. Individuals with borderline personality disorder usually struggle with chronic suicidal thoughts. In any sense, people can be seriously, seriously struggling and in agony, and while medication can lessen the effects, it doesn't always prevent all relapses.
It is possible for someone to be in a really bad place for no rational reason, and in rare cases, to see no relief in sight. As such, a lot of people with serious psychiatric issues feel alienated with the suicide discussion - people often talk about people with terminal physical illnesses as being "no longer in pain", but yet people who can't fight some terrible psychiatric issues are called selfish and should suffer so that the people around them can have the privilege of them being around. I'm not saying suicide is a good option, but I think many arguments about suicide being selfish isolate suicide survivors and ignore the chronic suffering that some people experience. On top of that, a lot of people who experience depressive symptoms legitimately see themselves as a shell of a person and as a burden to loved ones. It might sound illogical, but hey, that's most mental illnesses.
I myself have bipolar disorder (type 1), and have had suicidal behaviors through all clinical mood states, and all with different kinds of suffering. I will say that the link between suffering and suicide isn't always consciously in people's minds. As an example, my recent depressions have started out with inexplicable grief, like I'm mourning for something that I don't understand. As it progresses, my body slows down - my temperature drops, my mind becomes vacant, it's difficult to talk or read sentences, catatonia sets in. From that point, for me, it's more about wanting to stop existing, to freeze time, to be set into stone and never move again. There is no room for logic, for seeing that this is temporary and that remission will come again. Things don't add up in a depressed brain like they do for someone who is stable.
I'm pretty lucky. I found medication that works well enough, and have people looking out for me in case I slip. I love my life and if anything, I'm terrified of dying young. I just think conversations about suicide have to be careful. We need to protect those who are on edge, but we also need to make sure they don't feel alienated or condemned, that they feel comfortable reaching out before being in crisis. Please be careful of striking this balance when discussing something so personal and painful as suicide, especially in a public forum.
Thank you for sharing, very interesting to hear from your perspective. Sb'd
Yes, for anonymhomo00 's girlfriend. Read his post.
I've thought about it. Life sucks in general and you get a few happy moments here and there. But I'm actually too afraid of what's on the other side to ever go through with it. What if it's worse? Then I'm really fucked. Better the devil you know, you know?
Is it acceptable? We've covered some pretty valid reasons in the thread. I suppose I'd have to take my Libertarian leanings to their farthest conclusion on this one. Put me down for a suicide by cop if I'm ever facing hard time. I'll have to hold some folks hostage. No way is a U.S. prison ever going to take me alive.
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