Is the rat race and the hustle worth it ?

papertiger's picture
Rank: Orangutan | 374

I found out that the Chairman of the company I work at today died at 65 due to cancer. The dude was a freaking legend. Hung out with heads of nations, leaders of third world nations, and did some pretty shady stuff but built an empire like no other.

He was in it for the passion - not to impress anyone so he isn't a famous personality. But he had it all, the money, the image, the high life. I remember seeing his $8000 Rolex Submariner and thinking god damn I'm poor.

He came from nothing, trailer park background apparently. But he managed to build a company with a market cap of $6 billion.

My question is - so despite having achieved it all he's as mortal as the guy next door, maybe even more since 65 is a young age.

He used to travel 3 weeks a month according to the company annual report which contained a tribute/eulogy type thing.

Comments (158)

Sep 7, 2017

Submariners are for IB analysts. Daytona at least, Patek preferred.

Sep 7, 2017

isnt this the debate that everyone who considers doing banking has to go thru? there's no right or wrong answer here, it just depends on how important that work/life balance is to you vs. the money/exit opps etc.

Sep 7, 2017

How easy are the exit opps. in banking though?

I don't think every analyst that wants to jump the IB ship and get into PE, HF or VC gets an offer.

What the heck do you then?

It's either get an MBA and come back as associate and continue to slave or get a much lower paying job in industry.

Not a great situation.

Sep 7, 2017

do any of you regret becoming an analyst when you could have had a much better work/life balance and slightly less pay in industry?

Sep 7, 2017

I realize that you're having the same internal discussion that is frequent with people who consider banking, but, as someone who has worked in banking and in another profession, I can tell you that you shouldn't be asking yourself this. If you have the personality to thrive in banking then you will be bored to tears doing industry finance. Most of my friends who work for big companies doing finance complain constantly about having nothing to do. They say their brains are turning to mush, and they have no drive to go in to work and perform. Suffice to say, you won't feel this way in banking, where the people who really do well crave heavy workloads and are driven by the feeling of accomplishment that comes with closing a deal. An MD/MBA friend of mine put it this way: at heart, you're either an EMT or a Dr., not both. At heart, you're either a banker or an industry finance guy (or an industry finance guy who hates his job but quit banking because his wife threatened to divorce him).

Sep 7, 2017

Pitchmonkey that feeling of being driven to go into work everyday and conquer a heavy workload is a feeling I want to experience every single day that I work.

I guess banking would work for me then?

I'm willing to make the social life sacrifice in exchange for the networking opps, MBA opps and exit opps. It also helps that while you slave, you get paid quite nicely.

Sep 7, 2017

Roller, it's not "slightly" less pay in an industry. It's currently about half. If you're lucky and successful in that industry, that is. Depending on where you live and what your degree is in, you could start at $30, at $50, or even at $60k... but you're not going to start at $130-140k.

Sep 7, 2017

Additionally to what was mentioned above, you'd cross 250k most likely by the time you are 25-26. Most of the "really good" people in industry are lucky to hit 250k by the time they are 35-40.

Sep 7, 2017

PatekPhilippe, would that 250K come before or after MBA?

I assume after considering for those numbers an MBA is generally necessary meaning one would be at the associate level.

Sep 7, 2017

you can be an associate without an MBA if you are good. or you can go to a hedge fund/PE shop and be making 250+.

read up and do searches on these forums as i'm just stating commonly known information.

Sep 7, 2017

Yes, I'm aware that an MBA is not necessary to reach associate if you are very good. However, most are not good enough to reach associate without an MBA.

Many people after two years, do make that switch you noted into PE or Hedge Funds where the salary is also greater.

What are the odds of receiving an offer from pe or a hedge fund after two years of experience at a BB?

Sep 7, 2017

banks are pushing more and more to retain their analyst and promote the good ones to associate when the time comes.

Sep 7, 2017

this is heavily case by case.

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Sep 7, 2017
Roller4Life:

Remember you are on an accelerated path and if you do well you can easily move into senior management level positions at a young age.

Depends how you define "easily" and "young age." These "FAST" track industry positions are not all that amazing.

Sep 7, 2017

When I was an intern at GE I had two friends who are both in the FMP, the hours are a bit easier but the work is a little dull (trying to track a 100,000 discrepency on the income statement). They changed the program so you can only have rotations within your division so more switching from commercial finace to NBC and back again. The CAS program is attractive but your putting the same hours as you would ibanking although you make some sweet connections. If you do the entire 5 year stint then you can land yourself as a CFO for one of GE's many divisions. Anyway this is just my take. I know a bit about the program because I had FMP info sessions stuff down my throat as an intern. Just hope you make a decision that make the best fit for you.

Sep 7, 2017

I'm going into investment banking because I have an interest in global markets. Therefore an industry fast track would be my version of career hell. That's also why I didn't go for consulting. I have friends working in some industry programs and I don't envy them at all, it seems so boring.

However I guess people who are going for M&A might have realistically considered industry. To each his own I guess.

Sep 7, 2017

Fast-tracked career for what? Money? Or don't you feel alive unless you're an executive or at management level?

Sep 7, 2017

Is industry work really that dry and boring?

Sep 7, 2017

Yep.

Sep 7, 2017

I'm going in it for the money, and without sounding arrogant, I have much more to lose than these people in terms of my social life....matter of fact, I am drunk right now....

Sep 7, 2017
Seanc:

I'm going in it for the money, and without sounding arrogant, I have much more to lose than these people in terms of my social life....matter of fact, I am drunk right now....

You're drinking alone on a Saturday evening, posting on an investment banking message board ... damn, what a life you'll be giving up.

Sep 7, 2017

I think most of you aren't comparing apples to apples. Ibankers do finance for a financial firm. Finance is the bread and butter of the firm. A finance guy or corp dev guy in any other industry you choose makes zero money for the firm. Therefore the pay is a lot lower and the ability to move up is harder. Finance dept and corp dev dept work is really crap work. You really need to compare revenue generating positions like a product manager at a tech company. I know a ton of product managers in tech in their low 30's that make 400k/year + 5-10M net worth in stock. Granted this is not as much as ibanking, but they work 9-5, travel the world, and do much more exciting work than bankers. And this is not just one or two guys. I know about 50 people personally at companies like brcm and goog that fit that mold.

Sep 7, 2017

Pretty simple:

  • a grad from a top MBA program has way higher income potential than a construction worker ever will.
  • you can work most post MBA jobs until your brain gives out or you want to retire, i.e. your 70s and beyond.
  • construction is damn hard work, even in skilled trades. Some family members of mine were skilled tradesmen and they were physically spent by their 50s. Most died in their 60s for whatever reason.
  • if you incur a physical disability then your whole career in construction can be finished. Try being a plumber, electrician, or carpenter after your back gets smashed in an accident or your hand mangled.
  • MBA positions are intellectually stimulating. Construction is not.
  • the type of people you work with are also important. Personally I would have a hard time relating to most construction workers, as would most people who self-select into a MBA program.

It is encouraging that there are skilled jobs out there with such high pay though. It's hard to believe there are many construction jobs paying >$200k, but I suppose in a booming market and protected / unionized position it is possible.

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Sep 7, 2017

Construction is an extreme example that I used to emphasize my point. What I'm getting at is that you're not really making more in the "prestigious" jobs (PE/IB/MBB) then you are in the less prestigious ones (corporate finance, accounting, trade skills). The article seems to imply that really you're just working more.

People like to bring up outliers like IB MDs, HF managers, etc., but for every consulting partner, there are 2 electricians that start their own business and make as much as them, if not more. Also, I know way more burnt out IB analysts then I do burnt out construction workers.

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Sep 7, 2017
models_and_bottles:

Personally I would have a hard time relating to most construction workers, as would most people who self-select into a MBA program.

"people who self-select into a MBA program"

What is that?

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Sep 7, 2017

Good points made but:

"MBA positions are intellectually stimulating."

Umm...Hey guys... should we clue him in?

I think- therefore I fuck

Sep 7, 2017

I can confirm, skilled tradesmen definitely make around $100 an hour, maybe even a little more at the upper ends. But that's when you're licensed, bonded, insured. Technically, you are rock solid in terms of education in your chosen career. The education is cheaper and typically takes about the same amount of time, maybe more if you include the journeyman or an apprenticeship. Then there's the additional time moving up the ranks. You certainly don't start out making that, more likely $20/hr to start as a labor.

Also, @models_and_bottles is correct, the work and people you work with might not suit your palette as someone who's more 'intellectual' in terms of how you pull your stimulation. I think it wears the body down but I've seen people working out in the field in their 70s. It's all about how you eat and natural makeup. At the end of the day, they're two totally different walks of life. For most, one is better suited for one and horribly suited for the other.

Lastly, I think you have to also consider competition. It is hard to make unlimited amounts of dough given that there are so many people out there selling a cheaper product in the trades. At least right now, the barriers to entry are higher in banking/finance (capital, relationships, education, prestige, skills). If you try to enter the trades, the Mexicans will kill you on the labor (pun from "Back to School"). Finance still has the upper hand, in terms of being better for getting rid of competition.

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Sep 7, 2017

What I'm getting at is that you're not really making more in the "prestigious" jobs (PE/IB/MBB) then you are in the less prestigious ones (corporate finance, accounting, trade skills).

The entry level comp for most professional careers, i.e. doctor, banker, lawyer, etc. is generally low. The income potential is extremely high though. Let me know when you meet a construction worker making seven or eight figures. By the way, what does the average construction worker make vs. the average analyst or consultant?

People like to bring up outliers like IB MDs, HF managers, etc., but for every consulting partner, there are 2 electricians that start their own business and make as much as them, if not more. Also, I know way more burnt out IB analysts then I do burnt out construction workers.

Which outliers would those be?. The average post MBA IB, PE, or IM analyst is making >$200k with a visible path to making >$500k in 5-7 years. The outliers are making >$10mn.

In any case, the people I know that "burnt out" of consulting or IB generally went on to have great careers in other fields. It's not like they became baristas. IB and consulting do give you a great skillset to use in other industries and careers.

Sep 7, 2017

People are rational. There's a lot of talk lately about Millennial's being more "socially conscious" and therefore are moving away from finance and consulting and focusing more on tech and entrepreneurship. I think it's more likely the case that they're just doing a simple cost benefit analysis and concluding that it's not worth it. The return isn't compensating them for their effort in these fields. If you look at what's going on in IB, it's obvious.

The problem for the MBA program, and education in general really, is that it does not prepare you for entrepreneurship. I mean it might be helpful, but is it really worth 200k in debt and 2 years of lost income? Doubtful, and we see it in declining MBA apps.

I think this is part of a broader economic trend. At first, we needed capital. As capital became standardized and more easily accessible, we started to need managers and analysts. But now that that's increasingly available and standardized, we need more and more entrepreneurs. More risk takers. Risk aversion will be more heavily penalized.

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Sep 7, 2017

I think it's the availability of options. I'm now in a top 10 MBA, and the diversity of choices is at a new level. electricians will find it hard to change industries, and if the industry goes extinct, the electricians get structurally unemployed with it. If people get out of IB/Consulting, there are plenty of firms in corporate worlds that want their resumes for 6-digit pays.

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Sep 7, 2017

There will always be a demand for electricians. They are far more important than bankers/consultants. Doesn't mean they get paid more, but pay doesn't equal importance.

Sep 7, 2017

Becoming an IB analyst is much easier than setting up and making it big in your own successful construction company. The MBA path is well beaten and lower risk than the entrepreneurial route, which most often fails badly.

Sep 7, 2017
SF_G:

Becoming an IB analyst is much easier than setting up and making it big in your own successful construction company. The MBA path is well beaten and lower risk than the entrepreneurial route, which most often fails badly.

But is the MBA path really that much less risky? This is the argument that's constantly regurgitated but once you consider leverage (debt required to get MBA), saturation and cyclicality (which really impacts job prospects), I think it's hard to make the case that it's really less risky relative to pursuing/developing a high yielding, specialized trade skill.

Sep 7, 2017

Interesting discussion. O&G "foot soldiers" were making six figures in North Dakota not too long ago, too. My guess is that most lost their jobs in the past year. Isn't the bottom line that you can succeed "if you really want it?" If you see an opportunity, you're skilled in the area, you have the passion for the work, and you have the drive to work hard for it - I would imagine you'll do quite well. While growing up, my best friend's dad started a pool company. He's probably one of the few that have been able to last decades in our metro area, and he's a multi-millionaire now (I would guess, at least. Definitely has money...). He knew his business, worked hard for it, and could definitely retire today but loves the career.

You probably chose finance because you like the numbers, creative thinking, and working with people. The beautiful thing about finance is that it is applicable to many areas. If you went to a trade school (let's just say auto mechanic), you're pretty limited in what you can do. In finance, if you don't like investment banking (or whatever), you can go to a corporate, PE, VC, AM, etc... Not to mention you have a solid skill set with numbers and should be able to run your own business from a finance standpoint, at least. I've met a lot of CEOs who know their industry very well and they are great salespersons, but they suck ass at numbers and a P&L is just a formality.

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Sep 7, 2017

Great post OP.

Most of my peers from high school including me are in the same position, junior bankers, doctors and lawyers, clocking long hours for relatively little pay. Whereas a couple of guys who fell off the track, doing non-intellectually challenging/prestigious stuff ended up earning much more (both on an hourly basis and overall) e.g. a dude who gave up his studies to start his own tuition business, a doctor who quit the residency track to make more money by locuming.

Finance does give you a fantastic skillset, but from a business perspective its not the best industry to be in. Its saturated, not particularly challenging (unless your a top quant/PE/HF manager) which means low margins and your easily replaceable. I just wish more people would see this and stop harping on the "relatively low risk way of leading a comfortable life".

Work hard, keep learning, and never stop looking for ways to strike out on your own. Grow a pair and don't be that guy who's getting nowhere and comes into work just for his paycheck.

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Sep 7, 2017

You guys are supposed to work in finance, shouldn't you understand risk/return dynamics a little better?

Sep 7, 2017

I didn't read any of the comments but I just don't think this factors in why finance is so freaking amazing.

When I'm earning my greatest income in my life I plan not to be working... I hope to coast off of working my ass off to accumulate several million dollars in savings by my late 30's and a lot more by the end of my 40's. I then expect my investment gains (co-invest, carried interest, other equity positions) to overcome my actual salary.

This is why I'm not going to do construction. Heck this is why i won't freaking do QofE or legal diligence at PwC or Kirkland Ellis - the goal is to build a career where you work less hours and make more money. Few industries can do this unless you are an owner of a business.

Best Response
Sep 7, 2017

Some of these comments are hilarious, and what's even better is that the humor is unintentional. I may be one of the few who can make an informed contribution, so here goes.

I'm an electrician by trade, and come from a family of electricians. My grandparents, and parents have ran an O&G services company for decades - I assure you that it is no cake walk. I can also assure you that no tradesman makes $100 an hour.... even gross. Trades compensation tops out at the $50 - $60 range, and far more tradesmen earn less than that. Yes, $100+ is possible when factoring in overtime (i.e. base x2, etc). I don't actually use my electrical ticket for anything. I went to school, got a job in Corp. Finance, and am now in an MBA program, likely to return to Corp. Finance/Development upon graduation. This is a pretty unstructured post, but the gist is: short-term, the trades are great. My friends who chose to go that route tend to work less, own homes and have been outearning me since high school. Long-term there is the POTENTIAL for me to make more, but it is no guarantee. I'd say this is the one thing I regret about my chosen career path - simply the unknown. It really comes down to the certainty of living a "comfortable life", or the possibility of what will likely be a "only slightly more comfortable life". As far as stimulation goes, I'm convinced that work is simply work - the means for me to do the things that I enjoy. The idea of a "career" and "loving what you do" is nice, but in reality I love to crush beers and fish, and I'm pretty sure I can't turn that into a career. Regardless of profession, there are great stretches of work, where things are roses, and you couldn't imagine doing anything else; and then there are stretches where you'll contemplate going full Doppler and move to the woods.

Did that make any sense? Probably not. Y'all a bunch of jive turkeys anyways. I think all the IBD elitism I've seen on this board is getting the best of me.

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Sep 7, 2017

Nice contribution! The elitism in IB is more insecurity than anything else. Like you, I just want to crush some beers and fish/hunt as well. I figure if I can work my ass off, buy a cabin on the river with a lot of land, I can fish and hunt for my food (probably would do that illegally as there is no way there would be enough allowance in tags and licenses). Property taxes offset by crop sharing income/hunting leases.

Sep 7, 2017

Well said - the majority of MBAs are absolute wankers. I worked in construction and loved it, I worked in a bank and loved it for a while then hated it and left. IB intellectually stimulating? You are just learning how to align a bunch of pictures in power point - fucking monkeys. Make it to PE? Big fucking woopah, you are going to do the same thing except you'll be sucking the balls of your IC and aligning the same pictures as a director or an analyst.

There are a lot of paths out there in construction, banking etc.. some of those paths are good, and some are shit. Just don't give me the intelectually stimulating bull shit - you are just sucking cock to get money that's all it is. Want to do something stimulating? Go engineer a bridge or research the way monkeys copulate in Tanzania.

Just felt I needed to add to your rent monkeymonkey as yours was a bit too chilled.

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Sep 7, 2017

Love the Jive turkey drop... greatness.

Sep 7, 2017

Come from a family of electricians and blue collar workers and want to confirm everything you said.

Although I'm fortunate to have graduated college and landed in a great desk job, I've been down the mental path several times of, "why didn't I just work in the trades."

I grew up in a fam of 5 in a nice house in the burbs just like all my HS friends whose parents had 4 yr degrees or MBAs. My parents had very little debt besides the mortgage, had excellent health insurance, and were able to save a healthy amount for retirement. Granted, we never had luxury cars, a cabin, or a ton of toys. However, my dad, a master electrician of 20 years, has only worked 40 hour weeks on average and can come home and completely shut off work. When he needed some extra cash for a hobby or vacation, he'd clock the occasional overtime, double time, or on-call shift.

I'm biased, but blue collar folk are some of the 'smartest' people I've ever met, at least when it comes efficiently and effectively solving practical problems. Sure my dad doesn't know his way around an lbo model, but if my car were to breakdown on the way into the office Id rather he be in the passenger seat than an Ivy MBA.

All That being said, I don't regret the path I've chosen. Being in the trades is hard on your body, and generally, tradesmen retire earlier than desk jockies. Plus, I do have a higher earning potential than he has. Even if I don't get there, at least I've given myself the opportunity to.

My dad always taught me is that there are politics and bullshit in everything you do, so choose to do something that provides you with enough of a challenge and fulfillment to wade through it all. Just work hard and fully commit to whatever you chose to do. Nobody likes a country club bum.

Sep 7, 2017

I have family that work in the trades and it was my job throughout HS. So I know for a fact that plenty of people out there (on their own trucks, with their own shops) are making 100+ per hour. It's the upper ends, so maybe you and your people should consider quitting your cushy jobs and make the upper end. But, remember I think it's a tough market to get established in, plus it's very cyclical and sometimes uncertain.

Sep 7, 2017

If you are justifying yourself to not be interested in banking/consulting, chances are it is not worth it for YOU. If your interest are in construction or plumbing, go ahead by all means. People are lining up to get into banking for various reason, money/prestige/interest/exit opportunities etc. I think you are asking the wrong question, it's not about worth it or not, why do you want to get into banking/MBA?

Sep 7, 2017

@Disjoint please post more

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Sep 7, 2017

The wealthiest people I know, without exception, own businesses. More than half of these businesses revolve around construction and engineering services. These guys aren't silver-spoon types...they're hustlers, and YOU are not any better than they are. The notion that an electrician who works for himself will out-earn many (if not most) of the people on this board simply goes against the elitist mentality so prevalent on this site....but it doesn't make it any less true. I know welders in their early 20's who only work 6-7 months out of the year on industrial applications, making well over $150k. There are many ways to make good money, and they don't all necessitate a background in finance. Prestige is a funny thing.

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Sep 7, 2017

I rarely post, but feel I can actually add something here. I co-manage a small start-up focused on field project development and execution, which is 80% trade work and 20% engineering. We're basically a start-up contracting business with a focus on value selling using financial metrics and valuations in the pitch. Not rocket science, but rare in the trades. It works pretty well.

I can confirm that some of our sub-contractors do make over $100/hour gross and sometimes up to $200/hour. These are usually dual-trade guys (electrical/mech) doing system commissioning. They are the exception and the cream of the crop. Most of our electrical guys are on $40 or less.

What I have seen in the industry is that a lot of tradesmen blow their cash on toys- cars, boats, bikes, trucks, RVs, whatever. Basically anything with an engine. They are high-income low wealth guys. Then again, maybe that's normal across most high-income professions.

In terms of lifestyle these guys work long hours on their feet, eat a lot of fast food on various work sites and their daily attire consists of steel-toed boots and high-viz. They also work long hours as needed- usually starting their day around 4 a.m. and getting to bed by 9 p.m. (during the week). But they also usually kick back in the summers and take at least a few weeks off. These are generalizations, but you get the gist.

It's not prestigious, but these guys work hard, make a lot of money, and take off at least 4-5 weeks a year. They make our business possible and I have a lot of respect for them.

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. "
- Leonardo da Vinci

Sep 7, 2017

'Skilled' construction workers top out at $20 ph anyone over that is an extreme outlier. Not to mention the fact that construction firms go bust all the time. Used to work in construction.

Sep 7, 2017

Yeah this is false. My whole family works in construction. Fuck, my whole nationality works in construction.

Sep 7, 2017

I wonder if it's different in the UK than across the pond (I think I saw that you are living in the UK in one of the Brexit posts, right?). I lived a short while in Sweden and I recall some natives talking about how even trash men made great money. It probably differs by region, nation, etc..

Sep 7, 2017

One of my dad's friends dropped out of high school and is now a crane operator making low six figures. In my very rural hometown, the wealthiest families are those with construction related businesses. I don't know numbers for those people, but I have seen their garages.

And to echo a previous poster, they all seem to love spending money on toys with engines. Two of these families have helicopters and just casually fly around.

Sep 7, 2017

this is the same routine as the dentist, nurse, etc. argument. you guys might as well be arguing about college sports. it's a retarded epeen waving contest that no one who matters actually gives a shit about.

ant/tna where are you and happy pants when we need you to tell them to stfu?

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Sep 7, 2017

Decided to create a new account cause I am a forgetful monkey. Background ivy league education worked in it at bb. Father net worth excess 15million but less than 20. I personally think that it depends on the person. My father is an immigrant and he still refuses to get citizenship even if he can. Came to America to study but ended up graduating an art school cause of money. He started his career as a construction worker and created a company. Built alot of churches, mosques, temples in my area and yes he was a hustler. I totally agree that an IB analyst is more skilled than a normal construction worker. My father's richest employee was making 65k and couldn't speak english. However, in the long run, most of the guys you see who are rich are not from ib or finance. College kids and obsessed people put to much value in prestige. These ppl own companies and they call the shots. Also a good MD makes max 700k a year. That's 420 after tax. Yes there are the heads but they are a 1/100. Chances are low. My father worked on other ppl site till he was 60. After that people thought he was too old to work. Construction company is something hard to start as you need to get clients whereas an ib analyst can make 100 right out of college. Ib wins in this case. But my father started using his skills he learned from construction to develop properties. He is now buying properties left and right and I can say he makes double to triple an MD depending on year. Mds retire at 60. So in the long run if u calculate an MD who worked 20 yes and consider his time at the firm. He probably has net worth of 10 million maybe even less if you consider living expense. Realistically probably 7-8million. My father now has double and looking to triple that net worth cause he can still work when he's 65. But you have to realize alot of it was because of his hustle. Most construction or electricians end up making 100k a year after setting up their company. Thus most construction worker don't have the capital to buy houses and buildings to flip. So I say yes most ib guys are rich but they are not to the point where some ppl think here but they do exceed the average construction worker. However most rich guys own companies and I can say for sure my dad works an average of 50 hrs a week. Most ppl in the nice neighborhoods are not from ib and if they are they have the ugly houses. Like I said in the beginning all depends on the person.

Sep 7, 2017

Dude a good MD makes significantly more than $700k...

Sep 7, 2017

The average trade worker makes somewhere between $30-45k/yr. When the economy turns they get hit pretty damn hard, and that labor force has a very low bar of entry--good luck keeping your wages up long term, especially as technology improves.

Is the stress worth it? I don't know, but are you saying there aren't less stressful options available to you? Would you like the stresses of not having enough money? Ever want to retire? What about in 20 years when manual labor starts taking a serious toll on your body, how about the stress to keep working for another 20-25years? Have you met these other tradesmen you're going to spend the next 45 years of your life with? I have and if you think your bosses or coworkers are bad now... You're in for a pretty rude awakening.

Everywhere has stress and problems. Stress sucks, a lot, but are you really saying those problems are better than your current ones? They really aren't. I think part of this is many people on this site haven't really lived much, at all, they've just followed a career path, which is great but you tend to lose perspective. I was in the military, it fucking sucked, but it set me up for life and gave me a whole lot of perspective. You're very comfortable where you're at. I'd start to build your life up outside of work, wife etc.

Sep 7, 2017

This misses the point. Yes, there are a lot of incapable people making 40k a year, many of which face severe barriers (immigrants, criminal history, lack of education, etc.). I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the educated, the capable, the ambitious and the driven.

My point is that they're trapped in stressful jobs, making shit returns, taking on lots of debt because they're chasing prestige that doesn't exist. My question is, is this fake prestige worth it when, as generally capable people, they could be making more with less effort.

Maybe they can't, but again, your grandstanding completely misses the point.

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xxxxx

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Sep 7, 2017

If you don't think it's worth it, it's not worth it. Lots of different stuff to do out there but if you're doing something you aren't into, you're gonna be mis.

New question:
If someone offers you 35k a year to fuck hot chicks and drink beers 9-5, are you doing it? 2-3% annual raise to match inflation. Full bennies I guess, why not. No retirement plan, living expenses on you, etc. Normal job except you're banging tens and drinking beers 40 hrs a week.

Sep 7, 2017
Goldman Snacks:

If you don't think it's worth it, it's not worth it. Lots of different stuff to do out there but if you're doing something you aren't into, you're gonna be mis.

New question:If someone offers you 35k a year to fuck hot chicks and drink beers 9-5, are you doing it? 2-3% annual raise to match inflation. Full bennies I guess, why not. No retirement plan, living expenses on you, etc. Normal job except you're banging tens and drinking beers 40 hrs a week.

wow that should go to OCR

Sep 7, 2017

I would be stoked if i hadn't seen my wife since january

Sep 7, 2017

80 hours a week is not something you should be doing for more than a couple of years, unless you love the hell out of whatever it is you're doing. You will miss your entire life trying to maintain such a pace. Live like a pauper during those 80 hour a week years (you shouldn't have time to spend it anyway), stack a pile of cash and then go get you some work/life balance while you invest that pile!

Sep 7, 2017

Why do I have to be 40, unmarried, and without a family when I land that "great job"?

I'm 22. I'm not going to be doing this shit for 18 years. I'm here to put in my time and get out.

Sep 7, 2017

I'm not saying everyone on here is aiming to stay in the IB industry until the age of 40 - I'm positing the idea that maybe, just maybe.. the route to riches, fame, models/bottles glory or whatever is longer than you thought. When is it time to remain content where you're at? Any working professionals chime in - where do you determine the balance?

Sep 7, 2017
patience:

I'm not saying everyone on here is aiming to stay in the IB industry until the age of 40 - I'm positing the idea that maybe, just maybe.. the route to riches, fame, models/bottles glory or whatever is longer than you thought. When is it time to remain content where you're at? Any working professionals chime in - where do you determine the balance?

80 hour work weeks still leave you a lot of time out of the office.
6 hours of sleep/night leaves you with over 40 hours of free time per week. It's not like working means you have no outside life.

Sep 7, 2017
Sep 7, 2017

It is people with profiles like yours that make me post these questions. Im sure you have an annual income of 5 billion, J/O.

Sep 7, 2017

Don't be so ignorant sounding. Nychimp is the site administrator/creator and from what I have gleaned from his comments he has worked in both Ibanking and PE.

Secondly, you need to decide for yourself whether or not ibanking is for you. The hours are bad but the pay and exit opps are good. Everything depends on what you want to do in life and how much personal sacrifice you are willing to put into getting there. Want to work at KKR? You are going to have to make a lot of sacrifices. Want to work in industry finance? Less sacrifice needed. Everything should and ultimately does depend on you, not the reassurance from some anonymous people on an ibanking message board.

Sep 7, 2017

there are about 5,000 threads on compensation and work hours...i was just pointing you to one that asked the same question you did: "is it worth it?"

clearly, that depends. If you want to know what I have made:

1st Year ibanking (2002): $55k base, $28k bonus
2nd Year ibanking (2003): $55k base, $65k bonus
1st Year PE: $70k base, no bonus (switched firms)
2nd Year PE: $80k base, $75k bonus
3rd Year PE: $80k base, ? bonus

...but compensation depends on a lot of factors (firm, location, year, etc). For example, in 2002, a $28k bonus was considered decent (after 9/11), whereas if someone received that in 2006 it would probably be the lowest on the street.

plenty of info. on here, just use the Search funtion. thanks.

Sep 7, 2017

My appologies Nychimp, I though you were being a wise ass like some people on this site. I did not realize you were directing me to a forum thread. And jotah thank you for the straight up answer, I like the answers that are straight and truthfull.

Sep 7, 2017

Maybe im a little ignorant and new to this. What is PE you are refering to in your job salaries?

Sep 7, 2017

Oi vey, direct your eyes about 3 inches to the right and you can find some helpful accronyms. If you can't do at least a little bit of research maybe you should send your resume out for a high school shop teacher position.

Either you sling crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot

Sep 7, 2017

hahahaha, that was my second choice !

Sep 7, 2017

2002.

nychimp, that was an amazing bonus back then. right at the high of the range. these kids have no idea how good they have it.

Sep 7, 2017

You're overconfident, but I hope you get an interview.

Sep 7, 2017

Risk adverse, become a lawyer.

Sep 7, 2017

Become an accountant.

Sep 7, 2017

lawyer

Sep 7, 2017

is not for the risk adverse. Accounting and lawyer are much less risky.

With that being said, are you sure ML and Leh recruit at UMD for front office ibanking positions?

Sep 7, 2017

I like how that other kid made an exact same topic as mine. haha

But yeah they do recruit here because I was going through our career website, and I def saw Lehman recruiting for Financial Analyst, and Data Analysts. One of my friends even got the Data Analyst internship! and i know several others who are working as an Analyst.

As far as my risk situation. I understand in buinsess risk and money go hand in hand. I didnt mean I was so risk averse that I wanted an accounting job. As cool as Accounting is, I have no interest in making a career out of it. I just dont think I could invest a 100k in a business idea. I am more interested in Finance side of things. And I love money and I just want to know where I can achieve that goal.

I like what I-Bankers do. Even the analyst job, as demanding as it sounds gets me excited haha..i know im a fag! I got a book, and plan on mastering excel this summer break n all.

I didnt mean to be cocky but Im just being a little optimistic. Hopefully, things work out!! I know its really hard but hopefully with contacts from this forum and some of my friends at the IBanks, just somehow I could land at the big apple.

sorry for the long post!!! and thank u sooo much for the help.

Sep 7, 2017

ok i just read this other is it really worth post (the really original one)...and so apparently all analysts do are CTRL-F!!!!!!! please tell me that was a joke. what about Financial modeling??? and all that mumbo jumbo!!

What are some other options for an Accounting/Finance major? Hopefully ones where I can make 500k + in 10 yrs time. haha (not saying im giving up on I-Banking but it seems like its really tough to get into, and Id like to know my backup options)

Sep 7, 2017

Financial analyst and data analyst is not investment banking.

Sep 7, 2017

Then what do u look for (job title)? and how can I get I-Banking from UMCP?

Sep 7, 2017

Investment banking analyst is the typical title, better know a MD from UMCP.

Sep 7, 2017

Yeah, firms may recruit at your university, but you have to remember that there are different areas within an investment bank.

The way you're talking, you sound like you want to be in a front-desk position, which is the typical Investment Banking Analyst position. Most firms recruit these front-desk candidates from target schools such as Wharton.

There is then middle- and back-desk positions. One of these would probably be the financial analyst and data analyst position you were referring to.

If I were you, since you seem to go to a non-target, I'd network my ass off and get at least a 3.7 GPA, if not more. Since you're at a non-target, networking is much more crucial to you getting a job interview at a BB.

Good luck as well.

Sep 7, 2017

Yeah those are not front-office positions. The hours in the back office are much easier, although the pay is much worse. You'll probably get a similar base salary to front-office, but your bonus will be like 10k whereas front office 1st year analyst bonues are like 60k+.

Investment banks recruit at tons of schools, but only a select few (like 10) schools for the coveted front office positions (investment banking analyst, sales & trading analyst, etc.).

Sep 7, 2017

Unsure whether you are a troll but I still give my two cents to your post...

I would strongly encourage you to stay in VC, it's not worth the effort, because:

  1. Compensation goes down, juniors are laid off.
  2. Many junior monkeys are burnt out because of the hours and the stress of the job. They knew that they would have to work 80-100+ hours per week. But actually doing so for a year or two really crushes the most of them (despite liking the job).

--> A trade off could be to work for a reputable MM IB with a little more "human" hours. At the junior levels, compensation is about the same.

Inform yourself in depth to understand what you are giving up in exchange for working in investment banking ("the grass is always greener on the other side")

Anyways, good luck with anything you want to pursue in the future

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Sep 7, 2017

Sb +1

Great stuff, taken into consideration

Sep 7, 2017

It's a personal choice. If you already hate it without having even started your internship, then I'd suggest you look at something else, be it other branches of finance or not, but at this point, you've already invested into a finance/economics degree to the extent that it would not make sense for you to pursue something like engineering / MD.

Some people are genuinely interested in the idea of investment banking; others do it because it grooms you to be a good business person - hence the good exit opportunities. But realistically speaking, you don't have to do PE after your stint. Corp Dev has a pretty good lifestyle, if you find yourself into deal-making. Pretty much everything is viable after IB because the experience speaks as to the person's ability to learn stuff quickly and their good work ethic.

Sep 7, 2017

Invest wisely.

Seriously though, did you know what you were getting into? If you landed the internship, I'm assuming you went through the search process, looked into the lifestyle, etc. Were you expecting to be moving the capital that drives the world right after your first day? The justification is yours to make, no one here can make some value judgement for you. Obviously alot of us are here, looking to become "monkeys", not because we expect that tomorrow our powerpoints will result in huge deals, but because the doors it opens are wide. Some people want the power, some people want the money, but at the end of the day, you've got to enjoy knowing you'll be doing something pretty powerful someday in the business world. That is, as long as you don't suck at the "monkey" work, become too self-righteous, or develop any self-serving biases like, "I'm too smart for this work. Why do they need me for all these hours?" They need you because they need to be focused on the gears of the deal, and if you've got any kind of heart for the work, you buckle down, keep your ears open, ask the right questions, not to impress anyone, but so you become damn good at understanding the intracies of a deal.

Sep 7, 2017

If you don't like it, you shouldn't do it.

Beyond the "lifestyle" type questions, I think the larger question that people overlook is figuring out what they're actually going to be doing in terms of work (e.g. powerpoint/excel).

While banking definitely gives you some good opportunities, if you absolutely can't stand the work, you shouldn't do it. Not worth throwing away 2 years of your life for that purpose.

To be perfectly honest with you, a lot of the work IS repetitive, boring, etc. But really, MOST work out there is repetitive and boring - it's just there's a lot more of it in banking than in other fields.

You should be glad you did this internship and realized this now rather than spending even more time on it down the road.

Sep 7, 2017

I have seen more than a dozen posts that are absolutely identical to this on WSO. Every time I come across one, I find myself wondering why the OP would even bother. If you are looking for objective responses, you've come to the wrong place. This forum is filled with 20-somethings that are either desperately trying to break into investment banking or currently serving their stint as analysts. As such, the majority of answers that you are going to receive are incredibly biased.

Before going any further, I'll note that Dosk's response has a substantial amount of truth to it. Most jobs are repetitive and boring. That's why a lot people don't enjoy going to work in the morning. If you don't like banking, then quit.

At the end of the day, investment banking isn't as epic as most people on this forum make it out to be. You aren't really creating anything - you're a glorified intermediary. No banker cares if a deal ends up creating value. All they care about is their fee. The people with the real power in business are the ones who the bankers work for. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply spinning the truth.

What I am getting at is this - there are millions of lucrative opportunities in the world aside from investment banking. Don't be afraid to explore them because you're worried that quitting banking will doom you for the rest of your career.

Invariably, most posts that will follow this one will be in stark contrast to the opinion that I've presented.

Sep 7, 2017

stop trying to deflect the rest of us!

Sep 7, 2017

there are not that many other interesting opportunities out there which allow you to develop the skillset you get from an analyst stint IMHO and the vast majority of the opportunities that do exist are generally not as lucrative, which is an important factor for everyone either in IBD or trying to get into it

However I agree, most jobs are boring, that's why it's called work. Perhaps you wouldn't be as bored if you were a professional athlete/astronaut/Hugh Heffner, but I don't really believe the perfect job exists, perhaps this is why being your own boss is so satisfying, because you create your own work environment and culture.

Sep 7, 2017

Banking is just another job where you're working for a client. That's the reason bankers move to hedge funds and PE; it's one step closer to the actual 'action'; you're actually doing the transaction for personal gain that doesn't relate to fees, rather than simply brokering a deal for someone else.

Sep 7, 2017

I agree with Alphaholic and dosk17.

One purpose of the internship is to give you an opportunity to experience firsthand the real work. This is time for you to explore what you like and don't like. It's ok not to know at this stage. It's great that you're asking yourself some important questions. Knowing what you don't like is also a good place to start.

The financial profession carries a glamorous image and can be financially rewarding but there is a lot of repetitive, boring grunt work behind the scene. I still find it incredible the amount of scrutiny that goes into proofreading before any document can be published. I daresay the industry has the highest paid proofreaders in the world.

Ultimately, if you decide to work in the financial industry, you'll be spending most of your time at work. So, you've got to love what you do. There is no reason to subject yourself to misery, if that is how you feel.

Having said that, once you figured out what you love to do, or at least what you think you love to do, you need to do the grunt work when you start out. You've to learn how to walk before you run.

The secret to feeling like you never have to work is to really love what you do.

Sep 7, 2017

I hate my job. But its worth the experience and gets me where I need to be. Im a burnt out second year, but at the end of the day they paid me to do it. The first year was interesting, learning a lot (I am in MM M&A) but my lifestyle was terrible (I.e., if I left at Midnight I was happy because that meant I got a full night sleep). I got paid last year though which had a lot of value for someone who had nothing coming out of college. I got paid a 90,000 bonus and expect the same or a little higher this year (because of market changes). This summer I start in Private Equity to have a much better lifestyle (8 to 8 and weekends are free) and I will be making 220-250, most of which is base. the MM M&A experience is the only thing that got me there and I hope that it will get me into a great school 2 or three years down the road. Looking back, completely worth it.

Sep 7, 2017

I'm a burnt out second year too. I definitely didn't enjoy my first year. In hindsight it was great but I still remember vividly I didn't enjoy it at the time. That's the thing - I don't think you'll ever enjoy it while you're doing it but you'll look back and think "that wasn't too bad". Question is, what else could you have done?

Well to be perfectly honest, you won't know and you'll never find out, because you didn't go out to try other things.

Sep 7, 2017

Similar experience, I'm doing consulting now. Much more interesting, changes every day, you can see the "value add" a little more, and its a much more social environment. It has its own drawbacks, but if you want to work hard like in IB but want to do something less repetitive, I'd give it a look. Similar overall skill set (attention to detail, professionalism, ability to work hard) with a couple of differences.

Of course, with MC, I think its a bit harder to get that 250K PE job 2 years out of school.

Sep 7, 2017

I'm still trying to figure out my way around the forum. I just posted a short note on an office worker who went bonkers over stress. Apparently, the post ended up where I didn't intend.

So here's the link to a video just in YouTube two days ago:
http://financialanalystblog.com/a-shocking-look-at...
Let me warn you though, some of you will find this video disturbing (myself included).

It'll serve as a serious reminder if we're not careful about taking time to rest and relax.

Sep 7, 2017

Many people, myself included, work at a job where they perform mundane tasks that allow the bigger cogs to runs. Many are stuck in the position with little to no advancement, limited exit opportunity and are paid in peanuts.

At least being a monkey brings rewards in other venue. Work at the job for a while and you will be amazed at what esle will open up for you. If all else fail, at least you may have accumulated enough wealth to run with the winds, or do with life as your heart contents.

Sep 7, 2017

Xotera, your comments are very naiive, to say the least.
Hard to say what (and why) you was expecting to be involved into as an intern. You have neither knowledge no experience to be staffed with important things yet, as your mistakes (which are probable) could be too expensive for your bank. So, at your position, you should be grateful if staffers indeed give you some work to do on the ongoing deals - this is very important experience. In our office, it's pretty rare for an intern to be staffed on a live project.

Sep 7, 2017

I think I'm going to need a prescription for xanex if I get into banking...

Sep 7, 2017

It is unbelievable to me how much whining goes on in this forum. All the sterotypes of the delusions of the 20-25 year-old generation appear to be true. People outside your immediate circle of family and friends care about you! You can change the world straight out of college (while still making real money)! You deserve to earn $100k + right out of college with no work experience or skills! You can earn $500k + a year by 30 while living every moment of your 20's to their fullest!

To the OP, it would take me an hour to write a response as to how rediculous your complaints are. Other posters here have hit on some key points. My advice is this. If you hate the job, finish-up your internship and go into teaching, or marketing or something that requires fewer hours and will pay much, much less. By the time you are 50-60, if you are smart, you might be making in the corporate world what people in the financial world make at 30. If you go academic you will never make that money. No shame in picking life balance over money, just don't expect to get paid as well. Sounds like that is something you need to seriously consider.

To everyone who fantasizes about the perfect life of the buyside, here is a dose of reality. At large stable buyside firms, you will work every bit as hard as a banker. If you think there is some automatic promotion track, think again. One advantage of the sell-side is that people move-up fast and retire early, thus allowing junior staff to rapidly climb the ranks. On the buyside, people linger. Senior people stick around for years, clogging up the top spots. In order to move-up, many junior staff need to leave and go to smaller shops where is there is more potential. These shops wink in and out of existance on a regular basis. It is VERY hard to generate sufficient alpha to justify high fees (and thus high compensation). You rarely read about the funds that start-up and fail 3 years later, you just hear about the big guys. Hate to break it to you, but surviving to success on the buyside is even harder than the sellside. Much harder. You may control the money, but you are also responsible for it. If you can't beat the market, your clients will take their funds elsewhere.

That being said, you can get far richer on the buyside then you would ever get on the sellside, but do not underestimate the risks.

Sep 7, 2017

great post nrc

Sep 7, 2017

Well said, nrc.

The OP is only an intern and is undoubtedly getting a good amount of grunt work. But my gut also tells me that there's a sense of deserving and entitlement there that won't be satisfied working full time, either.

If you're intrinsically not happy with the work you're doing in banking on a fundamental level, don't delude yourself into thinking you'll be happy in private equity or some buyside derivative.

Sep 7, 2017

make an effort to go out. If you're working 14 hours a day, you get off work at 11pm. Go grab a beer every night with fellow analysts instead of going off to sleep, you can go insane that way. You don't need 7/8 hours of sleep every night.

Sep 7, 2017

Why don't you consider trading then? Fewer hours but a lot more risk. Compensation is about the same.

Sep 7, 2017

...the only thing that all this money can't buy is time. 25-30 is a great age....and to many, a terrible time to throw away in a cubicle doing meaningless stuff. If that'll bother you at 30, get out at 25. If at 25 it doesn't bother you, you're a good fit for the position.

Sep 7, 2017

This is why internships are great. It is great exposure to a field you think (thought) you may be interested in, but you are not committed and don't have the feeling of getting into a FT position, only to realize it's not what you dreamed it would be after a few weeks.
I suggest you try something different w/ your next internship. I tried something else before banking, and my feelings are similar to yours (grunt work, repetitive, etc.), but I am much more appreciative of what I have, having experienced something that was far less meaningful to me career-wise and personally at my corporate gig.

Sep 7, 2017

You will have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and I will have $$$$$ although I will have significantly more free time in the short run.

Sep 7, 2017

well-said nrc.

Sep 7, 2017

I swear that pic looks like one our books - Freaky.

Good advice though - I think ppl usually disregard the what else scenario. Everyone says oh this job is monkey work, this job is excel/ppt/edgar. If you really don't like it, do the best you can, get your offer, and then from there lay out all your options. Your in a place 100 ppl would fight for and sacrifice to get, no reason to have regrets because its not glitz and glamour like you thought it might be.

Sep 7, 2017

where is that pic from? I wanna read the whole thing...........

Sep 7, 2017

Who says you need to be happy? There was an excellent Wall St Journal article on happiness about one year ago. Humans were not made to be happy. We were made to survive. Survival of the fittest. However, the feeling of happiness typically leads us to things that will help us survive. For example, we think we will be happy with a lot of money, so we try to pursue money. Money, in many cases, = survival. Some people think having a great family will lead us to happiness. Spreading your seed also = survival, but in a different sense.

Sep 7, 2017

an analyst who used to work at Dresdner Kleinwort wrote a wicked report on Happiness, can't remember the name but it was very insightful

Sep 7, 2017
joefish:

an analyst who used to work at Dresdner Kleinwort wrote a wicked report on Happiness, can't remember the name but it was very insightful

http://www.trendfollowing.com/whitepaper/happiness...

Sep 7, 2017

I didn't find anything great about nrc's post. Those sort of remarks have been thrown around all the time. The first part just reeks of arrogance, though it seems an effort was made to tone it down.

Maybe the analysts I know are just weak, but you sound like someone who hasn't worked a day in banking.

Sep 7, 2017
charlemenge:

I didn't find anything great about nrc's post. Those sort of remarks have been thrown around all the time. The first part just reeks of arrogance, though it seems an effort was made to tone it down.

Maybe the analysts I know are just weak, but you sound like someone who hasn't worked a day in banking.

Agreed. NRC's post is plain one-sided and pretty self-centered. His happiness is derived from money...which is fine, but he's assuming everyone has the same set of values. It's just not the case.

Sep 7, 2017

but isn't it true that the faster and more efficient you can complete the bullshit work, the sooner you'll be given more important things to do? Let's say I get bullshit equal to 20 hrs of work, and I complete it in 15 hrs. What then? Are they really going to have me mop the floors of the lobby? Eventually, if I continue to fight the tide of bullshit, I will have eventually completed a substantial amount of bullshit and I will be given something that actually make me think. How am I wrong?

Sep 7, 2017
F9 - Update:

but isn't it true that the faster and more efficient you can complete the bullshit work, the sooner you'll be given more important things to do? Let's say I get bullshit equal to 20 hrs of work, and I complete it in 15 hrs. What then? Are they really going to have me mop the floors of the lobby? Eventually, if I continue to fight the tide of bullshit, I will have eventually completed a substantial amount of bullshit and I will be given something that actually make me think. How am I wrong?

Who are you arguing with? Who said you were wrong?

Sep 7, 2017

BTW Alex, that's a brilliant link you posted. Enjoyed reading very much (ah, the joys of slow days at work). :)

Interesting points have been raised on all sides, and in the end it comes down to what you want to do - perhaps overly simplistic, but that's all we can say in generic terms. For some people, money or at least "pursuit of success" is what drives them. For others, it may be relationships or other goals, which they also view as a different form of success. And there are countless others that could fall on this list.

I don't think an over-reaction to the thread creator is particularly justified as he is still in school and this is just an internship. The reality is no one in school really KNOWS what 80-100 hour weeks will be like until you experience it yourself. It's easy to state in the abstract; saying "80 hours each week means you work from 9 AM to midnight on Monday-Friday and then put in 5 hours on Sunday" makes it a bit more real, but even that perhaps underestimates what's required in this job.

To Xotera: I would reiterate my original advice. Be glad you got this experience now and are far more informed/experienced than the average person and can better make decisions about what you wish to do next.

Sep 7, 2017

I'm currently interning also, albeit in a less time-intensive group (hours are 7am-8pm).

Maybe I'm just really naive, but even though the work I do sucks and is undesirable, I'm still really excited to do it because I know that it will pay off not too long in the future. As long as I'm busy at work, I'm happy -- whether it's binding pitches or doing research or Excel analysis. When I wake up at 5:30am, I'm (usually) pumped to get to work, and when I get home I'm satisfyingly exhausted.

I think you just have to think of how this will all pay off, and just stop and think for a second how lucky we are to do what we're doing -- playing some small role and/or being exposed to headline-making, billion-dollar deals. I was interested in finance before, and my internship has not yet dissuaded me.

Sep 7, 2017

I was responding to his comments in general. It's not like the OP got into banking. He's just did a vac job.

But a lot of analysts wonder some of the things he's been asking, as far as time commitment goes. Do you? Or are you a machine? Or maybe not in the industry?

Sep 7, 2017

I'm doing a SA stint in Ops at a top BB...the hours are very much 9-5, we're paid well (received a 5k sign-on for the summer), and it seems like you can climb the corporate ladder relatively quickly, with less competition, if you're ambitious.

I'm a new yorker and enjoy the city too much to give it up for a job.

If someone feels the same, I would recommend checking out other areas of the BB...Ops, Finance, Credit, etc...where you still have access to the prestige, benefits, compensation that come along with working in finance, just a normal life/work balance.

Sep 7, 2017
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Sep 7, 2017
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You can't kill the guys you trade with

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Sep 7, 2017
Sep 7, 2017