Just my Thoughts

I want everyone to read this entire thing before flaming or giving it judgment.

I have been in banking for almost a year and I have drunk the Kool-Aid. I spent 2 Summer interning with BB firms and the ONLY reason I was not retained was due to the fact that I earnestly wanted to perform some community service in the summer/fall after my senior year at MIT in 2006. Therefore, I went with the firm that would give me that leeway, Banc of America. The firm was so gracious that they even gave me a full bonus after my first six months instead of a stub.

That being said I sit here and I boggle at the idea that there are High School students and young college students who would sell their mother to sit in a cubicle at Goldman Sachs or even Lockey, not to say it is not a good firm. It just does not resonate with me that half of you truly believe that if your concentration is stock market related and your goal is not Investment Banking that you are slighting yourself. There was even a comment on another thread bashing corporate finance as “shitty back office work.” I take offense to that not on any personal level, though my father was a CFO who probably makes more than my MD, who is a partner, but on an intellectual level.

It is painstaking to me that most of you have been brainwashed by CNBC, Michael Lewis, Case Studies, and The Vault, among others, to actually believe that Investment Banking is not only a lucrative field but a noble one at that. We get paid in a funneling situation, you must understand that. Meaning we get paid because we make big commissions and it funnels to us, not because we deserve it but because we are the next in line. No one cares about the work we do, we do not generate revenue we handle projects which are handed to us. If you have ever sat in the office of an Associate or Vice President of a buyside employee you will see numerous pitchbooks sitting there, hours spent ruler checking, scribing, etc for a glimpse. With that pile lays a hope that we might be chosen to make the commission to funnel to us.

In no way am I saying that we work in a bad sector of the financial services industry or we should thrive to work somewhere else. However, to really make a money and a career it is in the buyside or corporate finance helping a company from the ground to the top. Coming to BoA I turned down some buyside and great corporate gigs that if I could do it all over I would take the $20-30K decrease and jump on the opportunity. Why? First, we still get paid well; second, the hours are slashed in half, third, there is upward mobility; fourth, what we do means shit.

With banking there is a lot of luck involved. For instance in the 1990’s if you were in Tech you reaped the benefits. In the early 2000’s if you were in energy you reaped the benefits. For the future, if you are in Healthcare or Financial you will reap the benefits. It is the same with PE which has been white-hot, but for those working in corporate development or handling the retained earnings for a company or even handling strategy they are reaping the benefits of the economy of course, but also hard work.

I am not saying jump ship and go somewhere else, but lets face it most of you are here for the quick buck and in 2-3 years when you leave and go to Business School, never to return to IB, you can spin that BMW 5-Series and think you have a big dick. However, in 10 years the same kids who did not take the IB job will be whipping the same car, with better hours, and more future upside.

Just my thought.

A disclaimer: I am not attacking anyone because for instance I drive a brand new BMW and I have the IB attitude, but I have seen my ways, and I want out after this summer is done so I can get a good corporate job and got to a top B-School come out for the buyside or more corporate work.

 

i can't believe i just read all that. please spare everyone else the rhetoric and condense it to 2-3 bullet points; that's all you'll need.

coming right out of college, IBD experience IS slightly better than PE. you'll see a greater # of deals, learn more through informal training, etc. you'll also be able to get into a much better PE shop with that IBD experience than if you had tried getting into PE right out of ug.

_______________________________________ http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/
 
Best Response

I don't proofread posts cause they are not that important. However, what I am saying is trust me I have been there and I am there IBD is not that cool, it does not deserve all of this hype. We do not move the market we do not change the economy we feed off of it.

I agree 1 year of IBD will put you head and shoulders above UG or people without any buyside or IBD experience when applying at a later date.

 
tbroker:
I agree 1 year of IBD will put you head and shoulders above UG or people without any buyside or IBD experience when applying at a later date.

that's not what i said. i said IBD right out of ug is better than PE, and that 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to get a better buyside job with IBD experience than as a college senior.

for these reasons, IBD is a very popular choice for undergrads.

_______________________________________ http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/
 

I just laughed at people who are crushing the corporate world, working in a company's backoffice. I want to leave for a financial leadership position at Lockheed, which gives me a chance to work in their corp devlopment, budgeting, and stragety groups while doing my CFA and then applying to a top B-School or going to buyside. This is because the program will be fun and a great feeder for an MBA. Then I will use this time at the program and the MBA to study the markets at more than a pitchbook making whore and be a great candidate.

 
tbroker:
I just laughed at people who are crushing the corporate world, working in a company's backoffice. I want to leave for a financial leadership position at Lockheed, which gives me a chance to work in their corp devlopment, budgeting, and stragety groups while doing my CFA and then applying to a top B-School or going to buyside. This is because the program will be fun and a great feeder for an MBA. Then I will use this time at the program and the MBA to study the markets at more than a pitchbook making whore and be a great candidate.

I've been thinking about stuff like this as I ponder where to start my career. The obvious follow up question is what are the best entry level fortune 500 positions?

I'll throw these names out there, but I don't really have any idea. The leadership programs at GE, Raython, Johnson & Johnson, 3M, and Lockheed Martin? American Express Strategic Planning? Taking a name off the list, BP America (I've heard some not so nice things about being an entry level employee at Exxon Mobil). P&G, General Mills and L'Oreal if you want to get into Brand Management or Marketing (Apple too)? Microsoft and Google?

Anyone know anything about starting a career at any one of these companies? Any other ideas?

What's it like to do one of the financial leadership programs or just an entry level financial position? What are the career outlooks for someone who's graduated from these programs? What are the B-School prospects like? If you stick around what are your salary prospects ten or fifteen years down the line?

Given the choice between all, what program would you choose and why?

I realize thats a lot of questions that few people here are qualified to answer, but please jump in if you have any insight into anything I just asked about.

 

To Rod, I can comment on the GE FMP(financial management program) (They have an IMLP one too).

This two year program has four separate 6-month rotations, which move you through different sections of the company (ie, Financial Integration, Tax/Audit, Supply Chain Ops, etc). The downside is you literally move locations every six months, and have very little control over it.

While I'm not in the program, I work with a bunch of FMPs and it seems like the people truly enjoy their work. Hours are pretty easy (9-6, although I've seen some work late, nothing compared to IB though) They obviously don't carry the same paychecks as an IB 1st year analyst, but you still develop managerial skill sets, which can be applied else where.

I think it is important that you understand the aspects of each program though, and make sure that it is compatible with your goals/personality. I know that I would not like the FMP work/rotation business simply because I just don't really enjoy the sorts of responsibilities that they have.

I really don't know the career outlooks for FMPs, but I've heard it carries its weight on a resume. I do know if you can do your FMP at GE Capital, and stay there for a bit, your options increase dramatically. I know guys at GE Capital who have moved into IB (hired as VPs), and buy side places.

In short, I don't think you would short yourself by doing one of these programs, just make sure the work is cut out for you.

 

I read the initial post. No flame intended, but I think people here understand these aspects of what you are saying, perhaps more than you give them credit for.

Street compensation is not a secret, neither are the working conditions. No one should have any illusions about "lucrative" or "noble". People get into denial sometimes, but the truth is all there, publicly available for anyone who does the slightest bit of research.

You kind of acknowledge it, but your position pretty much mirrors most aspiring monkeys on this forum: Get into IB, put up with it for a few years, and enjoy an advantage with exit opportunities down the line.

You say this whole thing is not that great, and maybe you believe that, but your actual choices match those of everyone else. You say you'd take the pay cut, but you're not actually doing it. Not sure where to go from there.

 

Some responses:

Jimbo I was Course 14 and 18...Econ and Math

Everyone else: In no way did I think I was sheding some light on the whole board, but this is just what I see. People want IB for money and think that the exit opps are sooooooo incredible when you can get the same exit opps almost anywhere and exit opps do not matter until after B-School. So to me pre-B-School is all about getting there, which might mean taking a "lesser" job or a corp job.

I was talking about how people read Liar's Poker and get a hard-on due to the money being made not that he glorified it.

 
tbroker:

Everyone else: In no way did I think I was sheding some light on the whole board, but this is just what I see. People want IB for money and think that the exit opps are sooooooo incredible when you can get the same exit opps almost anywhere and exit opps do not matter until after B-School. So to me pre-B-School is all about getting there, which might mean taking a "lesser" job or a corp job.

this is the 3rd time i've said this in this very thread: yes, exit opps do matter before b-school. what kind of busyide job are you going to get that will get you into a firm like Apollo after 2 years? please. i'd love to know.

And why must you refer to everything in terms of pre or post b-school? Did you not see that NYTimes article? Tons of people aren't even GOING to b-school, because for them it is a WASTE. I'd rather get started on my career NOW than dick around for a few years and wait until i've finished an MBA program.

"you can get the same exit opps almost anywhere" - no, you can't. how many times do i have to explain this? the exit opps in IBD are better than those in ER or whatever other job you are claiming is "just as good."

and as far your comment about getting to b-school by taking a "lesser" job: did it ever occur to you that someone from a bulge-bracket firm has a better shot at a top 10 b-school than someone at Piper?

_______________________________________ http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/
 

I mean if you are really trying to go somewhere you will go to a top 10 MBA and then get into buyside at a top firm post-MBA. Though they look at Pre-MBA experience what matters most is your school, therefore, it is a lot smarter to do a year at an IBD then do corporate work for 2 years while doing community service which will make getting into Harvard and Wharton easier.

 

Ok, it seems to me that you are under the impression that top b-school is the best way to get into PE and HF, and if you look at the placement stats for top MBA programs, only about 10% of grads go into PE. Besides, as danbush mentioned, MBAs aren't really seen as that beneficial in particular finance roles anymore, i.e. hedge funds.

Honestly dude, I don't know where you get your information from, but most of the stuff you say is pretty dumb...

 

I have a few questions and although its a lot to read and respond to, I would REALLY appreciate some insight from people who know more than I do, which I admit is most if not all of you. Thank you in advance:

If you had an internship at a BB investment bank this past summer (after sophomore year) and received an offer to return next summer, are the benefits of going to a different bank and having the second name on your resume worth the lost connections/lost opportunity to have first pick of tops groups at the first bank? Also, do recruiters on Wall Street talk to recruiters at other banks? If you're speaking with other banks can the first bank you were with the summer after your sophomore year find out? And is it wise to interview with other banks even after you've accepted an offer to go back to the first one (Now, I know it is not ETHICAL to do this, but thats not what I asked. I want to know if the first bank can find out and if so, HOW can they go about finding that information) Also, if you sign with the first bank and then interview with the other banks and get offers from them, you will obviously have to turn down those offers since you've already signed. Will this create problems for you when you reapply to those same banks for full-time jobs? Will they remember you as the applicant who turned them down? Especially if you got the interviews at the other banks by contacting the recruiters yourself and they did YOU a favor by even responding? I know I asked a lot of questions in one post but I do appreciate any help and insight that anyone on here can give me. Thanks so much.

 

"And is it wise to interview with other banks even after you've accepted an offer to go back to the first one (Now, I know it is not ETHICAL to do this,"

sure it is. and there's no ethical problem.

"Will this create problems for you when you reapply to those same banks for full-time jobs? Will they remember you as the applicant who turned them down? "

possibly. that's the risk you run...but if you like the firm you summered at, wouldn't you go there?

jimbo

 

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