Kobe Bryant or Jordan? If you had to start a team who would you rather have? when all is said and done I think Kobe will be ahead of Jordan. The guy already has more NBA finals appearances than Jordan. I say he has at least 2 or even 3 more years of "good" basketball left in him. Now you can make the argument that Kobe had Shaq But Jordan had Rodman, Pippen, and Tony Kukoc. What do you think? By the way i hate Kobe.
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Jordan was more of a team player, I'd definitely take him.
.
Why do you hate Kobe? Do you have any original answers besides the alleged "rape" and him asking for a trade a few years back?
Jordan was not more a team player. I would take Jordan because he has an even more killer instinct than Kobe, but not because he was more about the "team". They are both selfish pricks with good enough supporting casts that has helped them win big time.
These things inherently get skewed to the present. Throw up a poll on espn.com about the greatest players ever and inevitably the "winner" played in the last 10 years.
I'll take Jordan, and Kobe isn't second.
Legends of different eras...
What, Kobe isn't even the best player in the league today...not even 2nd best...
Oh and go look at some of his fourth quarter stats, horrendous.
^^^ this...
Kobe may be top 5 all time. He may be the best player right now. But Jordan was definitely a better team player AND better at defense AND he was better at finding the basket
No he's not top 5 all time, and this isn't Kobe hate, I respect him, but let's have a little perspective here. He's not even one of the top 3 players in Laker history: Kareem, Magic, Shaq
Hahah you're kidding me right? Who is then.. lebron? And not even 2nd best? Jesus christ this is the mob mentality of America.
And of course, stats explain everything and all rankings of players in all sports should be based on stats..
if kobe played in the mid 80s to the late 90s, he would definitely be regarded as "the best player to ever play the game", too bad he came later where ppl were missing Jordan's plays and hating on Kobe being like him in almost every facet of the game.
Jordan was a pioneer in sports advertising, media, the Internet became popular, so he fits snuggly into a period where he received more attention that Magic and Bird, and was the face of the NBA. Pretty tough for Kobe to follow that no matter how well he does...
Kobe has a longer range, better shooter, and more athletic... Jordan was a better leader... I'm a fan of both players, but I'll take Jordan by a slim margin... still can't say the words "Kobe is better" yet... but with the 6th and 7th title, i just might...
You seriously are retarded if you believe "kobe is more athletic than Jordan." I'm sorry, but that is simply wrong. I guess that's what happens when all of you kids on this board were still shitting in your diapers when Jordan was in his athletic prime. The Celtic game where Jordan scored over 60 on Larry Bird should be enough to help you realize such a statement is utterly foolish. Jordan was the most athletic player to every play, while also having the greatest killer instinct and raw basketball skills to ever play...that's why his overall package adds up to equal the best player to ever set foot on the hardwood. Jordan had better hands than Kobe, better defense, was a much better leaper in his prime, and could get to the basket with greater ease than Kobe.
Also, important to note, where the hell do you kids think Kobe learned that midrange fadeaway and dribble-spin-turnaround from? Kobe imitated these moves that Jordan perfected. From 96-98, MJ completely destoyed defenses with his reliable midrange fadeaway and jumper. MJ developed a very strong mid-to-long range jumper towards the latter half of his career, much like Kobe has done. Jordan relied on raw athleticism to dominate the league for close to a decade before actually becoming a deadly jump shooter.
I watched every televised Bulls game from 93-98, so I have a good idea of Jordan's game vs. Kobe.
The problem with Kobe, is he is so similar to Jordan, yet he isn't equal or better than Jordan at any single aspect of the game. He's better than almost everyone else at each aspect, yet still falls short of Jordan's skill level at each one. Jordan was not only the best offensive player to ever play, but he was also the best on-ball-defender to ever play the game. Kobe is one of the best offensive players to ever play and one of the best on-ball-defender's post-Jordan era (although even his own teammate Ron Artest is the better on-ball-defender). This sums it up, Kobe is simply a lesser yet similar version of MIchael Jordan.
^^ agreed. Jordan by a slim margin, but Kobe can be entered into the conversation. I cannot say that Lebron can be though.
And Shaq as a better Laker than Kobe? You do realize towards the last few years of the Shaq-Kobe era when Shaq was still in the later years of his "prime" Kobe became the go-to guy, averaging near, if not more, points than Shaq?
Shaq may be an all-time center, but to say he was a better Laker than Kobe has been is quite ludicrous.
Please...Jordan, and it isn't even close.
Go take a look at the numbers Jordan put up in the playoffs, especially in the finals. Absolutely untouchable. If I recall correctly, I think he averaged 42 ppg against the Suns in the 1993 finals. Completely insane.
Not to mention, Jordan never played second fiddle to anyone and was always the alpha dog.
This really isn't even up for debate.
JORDAN
Kobe isn't even the best player on the floor sometimes
This is just asinine, to say Kobe was better than Shaq is insanity. Kobe wasn't near the player Shaq was when he was on the Lakers, Shaq dominated the league. Kobe never took over the league like that...I'm not going to go into this one...I don't know what you're talking about "averaging near, if not more, points than Shaq" as if this statement is relevant at all to the discussion.
But to some of the above posters: to suggest that Kobe would have been "great" in the 80's and is close to Jordan is insane.
If Jordan played today with the way players are babied by the officials, he'd probably score 45 points per game. In the days of Magic, Larry and even Jordan, players used to get raped by the other team. It was a physical, vicious game, go look back at some tapes from the early 90's of Jordan against the Knicks in the playoffs. In those days you had to drive a tank to get into the lane. Today you can't even look at players wrong. Do you know how much help Kobe gets from the referees, as do all the stars from today. I'll be schocked if Kevin Durant doesn't average 40 points one year with today's rules.
Stop being such little fanboys. Even for today, Kobe isn't nearly as gifted as Lebron, though he has a better overall game and basketball IQ. And as far as overall ability and drive, he doesn't have what Dwyane Wade has, the only guy in the league today that can take over an entire playoffs by himself. Just look at the 2006 Finals, Kobe's body of work has nothing even near that masterpiece. I realize some of you may have been in preschool at the time so you'll have to go back and watch a lot of tape. Could you imagine if Kobe was surrounded by the teammates Wade and Lebron were over the past 4 years?
Actually, we saw what happened when Kobe had average teammates, they went 40-42 and missed the playoffs. The one year they did make the playoffs they took the Suns to the limit before Kobe disappeared in the second half of game 7. We saw the poisonous looks towards teammates, the trade demands...etc. Do you know what happened when Magic had average teammates? They won 57 games and went to the NBA Finals before they got overmatched by a far superior Bulls team. Do you know what happened when Kareem had terrible teammates? They came one game shy of reaching the NBA Finas.
Kobe is not in the discussion with Jordan, it's ridiculous; and there are several players I would take above Jordan.
TheKing,
I mostly agree with you. However, while you say Jordan never played second fiddle to anyone and was always the alpha dog and it's true, it's also unfair to compare that situation to that of Kobe's. Jordan came into the league about 3-4 years older than Kobe to a shitty team. Of course, he'd be alpha dog.. Kobe would have been alpha dog would he have been shipped off to a shitty team. By Kobe 3rd, 4th season (around the age Jordan entered the league, he was making all-nba teams).
Jordan would still be pick though, but still as a poster said above.. legends of different eras
Okay rebelcross, I digress. However, I would like to hear the "several" players you would take over Jordan.
Off the top of my head real quick:
Bill Russell Wilt Kareem
And I would have to think long and hard about the following players, I don't how much of Jordan's success was a function of his teammate's and how much was due to him maturing as a player, I would really have to think hard about:
Magic Hakeem Oscar Robertson (different era, never got to see him play so I can't say one way or the other)
And it remains to be seen what Lebron and Wade become. Lebron has all of the physical gifts but doesn't have the body of work. Wade has the body of work in small doses, he hasn't had the teammates to sustain that body of work, though he has had some mind-boggling flashes of brilliance.
I like how people always say " i would take shaq/kareem/blah" over kobe.
They dont even play the same position! You can't possibly compare a center to a guard. Do you want your center to take the last shot of the game?!
Back to the topic, I think Jordan has a slight edge on Kobe because of his insane mid range jump shot that nobody could ever guard.
However, if you are talking about a buzzer beater..I would go with Kobe because Kobe is got ridiculous range.
Defense they are about the same.
Jordan was as much of the ballhog like Kobe.
You're right, it's about players as teammates and the level at which they dominated their position.
Kobe at his position doesn't hold a candle to those guys at theirs.
Again, you are comparing a center to a guard. They serve different functions. I would love to see a team with Shaq, Russel,Kareem, Wilt, Dwight winning any championship.
As far as dominating, are you sure Kobe isn't one of the best shooting guards of all time?
Off the top of my head, I don't remember any small forward/ shooting guards in this era that is for sure better than Kobe.
You have Carmelo, Wade, and Lebron at these positions, but the only one that is comparable to Kobe is only Lebron.
The topic is about Kobe v.s. Jordan btw, so I guess I will stop arguing
You aren't qualified for this debate as evident by your atrocious comments quoted here.
Jordan was MUCH more of a crunch-time killer. Jordan almost never missed when the game was on the line. His game-winning shots exceed those of Kobe's by a wide margin. You seem to forget Kobe not only missing, but AIR-BALLING, two consecutive three-pointers to win the game, both being terrible shots, his rookie year. You might say, "well that was his rookie year," well, sorry that doesn't fly because Jordan was winning NCAA titles with game-winning shots, then completely embarrassing the league his rookie season, INCLUDING game-winning shots. Also, apparently you've already forgot that HORRIBLE game-winning shot by kobe against Phoenix at the last second of game 5 last week...yes, it was another air-ball, but luckily for him Ron Artest caught the rebound and layed it in to win the game. Had Artest not corrected Kobe's terrible shot, the Lakers may not be in the situation they are in now.
Did you seriously just say they are on the "same" level, defensively? That is simply false. Jordan is widely known as being the best on-ball-defender of all time (combined with being the best offensive player, pretty unbelievable when you realize this). Jordan was a defensive stopper, he was assigned to the best offensive threat of the opponent due to his defensive ability. Kobe, on the other hand, is one of the best on-ball-defenders in the league right now and has been for several years, but he has never been the defensive stopper that Jordan was. Kobe has never even been the defensive player of the year, yet Jordan was of course. Hell, as I mentioned previously, even Artest is a better on-the-ball-defender than kobe; but that's nothing to be ashamed of considering Artest is probably one of the best defensive players of this era.
Kobe has more NBA game winners than Mike.
like Jordan said, he said he flinches whenever ppl say he's the greatest of all time over oscar robertson, wilt, jerry west, etc because as much as he would have loved to compete against them, he didn't get a chance, so you can't really compare... sure kobe played against jordan for a year or 2 (disregarding the wizard years), but he wasn't at his prime while Jordan was...
It's weird when people compare stats and all, because stats don't tell the whole story... wilt had 100 points, but quarters were also longer, and there were fewer teams in the NBA, and players aren't as big and strong as they are now... not to mention different rules, like hand checking and the no-layup rule, etc.
different eras, different legends... but i would like to see how lebron plays out when he loses his athleticism due to age and mileage... kobe and MJ had insane conditioning and skills, footwork, etc to be great even in their 30s...
A few minutes longer per game doesn't compensate for a 70 point disparity. And the rules you mention made it HARDER to score in those days. Did you know in the absence of all other methods, players used to hang on Wilt because there was absolutely no way to stop him, and the refs couldn't call it because it was already getting ridiculous. He took such a beating day in and day out. These guys were unbelievable.
And yes, it was a different era, it's about level of dominance compared to your peers in your era, again Kobe isn't in the same discussion as those guys.
If he wins this year he's top 10. If he wins again in 2011, he breaks into top 5. Maybe if he wins again in 2012 he would be in contention with Jordan.
People forget that Jordan would have won 8 titles in a row had David Stern not suspended him for two years, err, I mean left to pursue his baseball dreams.
I'll just take Phil Jackson
Other players who would be in the discussion for the "greatest of all time" add something to the table that the others don't, thereby providing argument for themselves. Shaq was probably the most dominant low post player ever; Magic was a 6'9" PG who could play any position and was probably the most versatile PG to ever play; Jerry West could score from anywhere on the floor with a jump shot; MJ could do everything on floor better than everyone else -- from offense to defense, and was also the most tenacious competitor/leader evidenced by his constant performance under the greatest pressure...he played better when the stakes were highest, and on top of that, he was as athletically gifted (leaping, quickness, strength) as they come. When you combine raw talent, athleticism, killer instinct, all-around basketball skills ranging from scoring to passing to defense, and the most dominant offensive abilities ever...well, those are the ingredients for the greatest player of all time. Michael Jordan. The previous players listed still do other things that Jordan didn't offer though, but Kobe unfortunately doesn't. And that's Kobe's downfall in this equation.
This this this. This pretty much ends the discussion, with the qualifier that I'm not ready to just accept Jordan as the best of all time, but the rest is dead on.
LEBANON JAMES
well rebelcross, i'm glad i can very much agree with you on your lebron comment.
As of right now, Jordan. When it's all said and done? Who knows? Depends on how these next few years pan out for the Black Mamba. There's a lot of BS being spewed in this thread, especially Kobe not being among the top two players in the NBA. WTF? Kobe and LeBron are the top two players in the NBA and it's not even close. The only other star that might be in the realm as these two (key word: maybe) is Wade. Seeing how far his team as advanced in this year's playoffs, Kobe > LeBron (slightly). How many rings does LeChoke have? As many as we do. Hell, Alvin Gentry, among many other coaches/players in the league have said Kobe's the best player and "it's not even close."
Rebelcross, Wade's one of my favorite players, but the only person who's had more motivation and drive than Kobe is now doing Hanes commercials. Kobe is the second best shooting guard the league has ever seen, and that's hardly debatable. No one in the league has that killer instinct and power to take over games in the last stretch that Kobe and MJ possess.
Youngblood, when taking pure shooting into perspective, Kobe has a slight edge on Jordan, and Phil's even said that. He has more range, and his mid-range shot is more polished. But I do agree that Kobe's not better than Michael (yet). But Kobe is at the stage where his standing with Michael can be a legitimate debate. No one's gonna stare at you like you're a dumbass if you say Kobe's better than Mike.
Umm, no. Wade has had that same killer instinct on less talented teams and has done more. He, by himself, took over the playoffs in 2005/2006. Just go look at the first round he had against the Celtics this year, tell me if Kobe ever had a series like that. What Wade didn't do was disappear in Game 7 against the Suns when he had average teammates.
It's nice to say "Kobe is so driven" and to recycle all of the media catchphrases, but it doesn't really mean much. But as soon as you said that Kobe is one of the best two SGs the league had ever seen, it became obvious where you were coming from...kind of a ridiculous comment.
Yea, Kobe had a series just like it last week.
So taking into consideration Wade's "wow" factor and dominance in ONE playoff series is more important than assessing a player's whole career?
I'd love to see some of the SG's you place before Kobe other than Mike.
Wrong. And did you seriously just say "more polished"? bahaha that's just stupid talk right there pal. What an unbelievably subjective and unsubstantiated claim right there. Kobe has never been a three-point shooter, never. This year was his first year where he became a long-range threat. That's just one year. The key is consistency, and Kobe has not yet established consistent long-range over the lifetime of his career. Jordan was never a three-point shooter either, but he did have his moments where he was a legitimate long-range weapon, just as Kobe has displayed this year. Therefore, in terms of long range, Kobe and Jordan are about equal. Now, in terms of all-around jump shot ability and shot creation ability below the arc...Jordan has the edge. The latter half of Jordan's career was evidence that he just about perfected the ability to score from any point on the floor when he wanted. He had a much more consistent fade-away, especially the turn-around at the double team, which Kobe struggles with at times.
Jordan's midrange was definitely more "polished," or better yet, more consistent and tried and tested against ANY defensive scheme than Kobe's midrange game. And let's not forget, who was the triangle offense created around? That's right, michael jordan, not Kobe Bryant.
is this a serious question?
You guys are a bunch of idiots. Jordan's average field shot % throughout his career was 50%... and that's including the years that he messed up, playing for the wizards.. Kobe's is like what, close to 40%?. . Clearly, Jordan is a better shooter.. Also, Jordan didn't play for 2 years in the middle of his career.. come on, not playing for 2 years? For an athelete, that's equivalent to a death sentence...But he still came back and won 3 more championships. Can Kobe do that?... I don't think so...
How do you know Kobe won't win 3 more rings before he retires and end up with 7? That's the problem with comparing an active player with a retired one.
Shaq has a higher career FG% than Michael. Oh, by your logic then, that must mean Shaq's a better shooter.
i'm comparing guard vs guard. not guard vs center... obviously, centers have higher FG% than guards,
Seriously dude, just pause for a second to realize the flaw in your logic.
Shaq was a Center, whereby such a position generally commands the highest FG percentage.
And as the other poster noted, Kobe has a much lower FG percentage than Jordan's career average. Now why does this matter? Shaq is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Kobe, on the other hand, as a SG who has essentially emulated his entire game after michael jordan, is about as apples-to-apples as a comparison can get. Kobe has never been the consistent scorer that Jordan was.
Field goal percentage as your proof (also, Jordan has shot only about 4% better than Kobe 49.5% to 45.5%)?
Come on now, Shaq has a better FG% than Jordan, is he a better shooter now?
Fine, they don't play the same position. Well Shaq certainly has a better FG% than Gasol, but Gasol is a far better shooter than Shaq.
And to those of you who say Lebron or D. Wade is better than Kobe, well you clowns are just delusional. Lebron has absolutely no perimeter game, no back-to-the-basket game, and spotty defense...but to top it off, he is soft. Lebron averages upwards of 4 turnovers per game! Might as well subtract 8 points from his scoring average with that horrendous stat. Hell, in his last game of the playoffs this year, when it mattered most, Lebron committed 9 damn turnovers, that is just borderline ridiculous.
Lebron isn't the competitor or killer that the Jerry West's, MJ's, Kobe's, Bird's, etc were. You can't be the best in the league and be soft mentally, especially when a prime Kobe is playing in the league.
Kobe is the best in the league right now, and that's just the truth. But, being that he does everything better than most, yet nothing better than Jordan, he is definitely a top 10 of all time but not in the discussion with Michael Jordan. Kobe simply does too much of the same Jordan already did, while not quite rising to the same level at each aspect as Jordan. That's his downfall. He should have focused more on being unique, offering something different to the game, as opposed to simply copying and memorizing Michael Jordan's game.
Good job on faulting Kobe for having a similar game as Jordan. Which young SG doesn't emulate Michael's game? Kobe gets faulted because he's actually good enough to effectively emulate them? Why not emulate them if they worked and made the greatest basketball player ever (Michael) who he was? And if you watch Kobe's game, you'd see that he's a mixture of all the greats, not just Jordan. He's worked with Hakeem on his post game and has elements of all the greats. You're making it seem like he just wants to be like Mike when in fact, he's stated time and again that he only wants to be the next Kobe Bryant.
Listen guy, as someone who attentively watched Jordan's career from early to late, I can definitively say, as has ALWAYS been a criticism of Kobe, that he has emulated and copied MJ's game a bit too much, if that is even possible. It's not a fault to emulate your game after someone, but to a point. Kobe unfortunately hasn't developed his own identity in terms of what he offers in terms of basketball skill. Everything from his midrange, fadeaway, and dribble-spin-turnaround have been copied and pasted from MJ's skillset. It is almost weird to a point even, especially considering his development and even mannerisms have always seemed to even be contrived to match MJ. This isn't just me stating this, it has been the general consensus from as far back as Kobe's first few seasons in the league. He even admitted (in an interview) that he tried to speak like Michael Jordan in post-game presses and such.
And did you seriously just say a "mixture of all the greats"? That's just stupid. Here's the problem with that statement pal, Jordan IS the "mixture of all the greats," and by emulating Jordan's game to such an obsessive point, he thereby adds a bit of what Jordan perfected by default. Kobe admitted early in his career that he idolized and emulated his entire game after Jordan, but after being criticized for it, he then changed his story to "emulating all of the greats," which ironically enough is something Jordan always said.
All that being said, Kobe is most definitely the best in the league, but he doesn't bring anything to the table that Michael Jordan himself didn't. When it came to offensive dominance, Jordan was a bit better and more consistent; when it came to defensive ability, Jordan was a bit better; when it came to raw athleticism, Jordan was a bit more athletic and more dominant at getting to the basket; when it came to killer instinct/competitive drive, Jordan was a bit more tenacious and intense (evidenced by his notorious practices in chicago); when it came to winning, Jordan was a bit more of a winner (as of now at least)...Jordan never lost when getting to the finals going 6 for 6, with two three-peats, Kobe has indeed lost in the finals and hasn't quite dominated the league as a winner like Jordan did in the 90's. This could very well be a different story a few years from now, but, also remember that Kobe has already played more seasons than Jordan did with Chicago. Yep, Jordan won titles 6 times out of 13 seasons with the Bulls. Kobe on the otherhand has won 4 titles out of 14 seasons. Who's the more accomplished winner, when it comes to a proportionate comparison? Yes, it is of course Jordan. How many times has Kobe missed the playoffs, and how many times has Jordan? Once again, Jordan is the more talented winner.
Dude you are wrong, if you google who has had more game winners, Kobe has had more and counting..
Why don't you check the stats on the % of him converting the shots into a game winner? Not a pretty picture, just because you take 100 and make 10, doesn't make you better than someone who takes 50 and make 8
Stupid question.
I really don't see Kobe being nearly as good with how the game was called back then. He would be put on his ass every time he tried to get to the basket, and the refs wouldn't bail him out. You can argue that he's as tough, but Game 4 against the Celtics in 2008 when the C's came back from 25 to win the game - MJ would have never let that happen. Kobe shot 6 for 19 in that game, then went on to shoot 7 for 22 in the Game 6 blowout.
You could find all the stats you want to argue for either player, but Jordan's career is something that had to be witnessed first hand to truly appreciate it for what it was - the greatest ever. Jordan revolutionized how the game was played. Kobe emulated him. Even if you watched the game tonight, he talked about how he would watch videos of Jordan and copy him.
Most importantly though, we should remember that we may think Kobe compares well because he is still playing and memories of his shots are fresh in our minds. Anyone who knows basketball will tell you Bill Russell is one of the greatest players of all time, probably top 5 by most standards, but how many casual fans would pick him over Shaq? May be a bad comparison, but even though people know his stats and his championships, the memory of his greatness and dominance has faded, and the same will inevitably happen to Jordan.
If you really go back and look at his playoff career, there really is no comparison. Sure, Kobe's a great player, but no basketball person in their right mind would ever choose Kobe over Jordan.
I only read the first 20 posts or so because I got lazy but..
I love Kobe but I'd take Jordan. He essentially won 6 straight championships and it very realistically could have been 8 in a row if he didn't go play baseball. As for shaq being a better Laker than Kobe, that's ridiculous. Kobe may not have won without Shaq but Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe either. Kobe has brought the Lakers to 3 championships now since Shaq has left which automatically makes him better. Not to mention what he has done, he completely took over the series against the Suns and we have yet to see what he will do in this one. I've NEVER seen someone make more difficult shots consistently AND when they matter the most. Finally, to say D-Wade is more driven than Kobe is absurd. Kobe has played great through all kinds of injuries without even acknowledging them, also I'm convinced he hasn't smiled in a year haha. He's obsessed with a championship, it completely consumes him.
D-Wade was the best player on the Heat when they won but if that was the Lakers and Kobe instead of D-Wade people would still say well he had Shaq.. Not to mention D-Wade's championship play would consist of him running straight to the basket and falling as hard as he could for foul shots. I think he's a great player too but no one falls unnecessarily more than him and I hate that stuff more than anything.'
Finally, saying Jordan never played second fiddle to anyone doesn't make any sense because there's no doubt he would have played second fiddle to Shaq if he was in Kobe's positon. Also keep in mind Jordan didn't win his first championship until 28 and Kobe is still only 31.
Stupidity of the highest order.
One by one.
First, yes Shaq would have easily won those championships without Kobe. In fact, I don't remember if Kobe was starting the first year they won. Remember in Shaq's second or third year he took an average team who's second best player was Penny Hardaway to the NBA Finals before they were overmatched by the Rockets. To even compare Kobe and Shaq is ridiculous, one dominated every single aspect of the game at his prime and was without a doubt the best player in the league that no team had an answer for, the other is Kobe Bryant.
Second, to say Kobe is somehow more "driven" than D Wade is absurd. I know you were probably in third grade when before the Lakers got Pau Gasol, but if you're talking about the same Kobe who consitantly quit on his team and quit on his team in the biggest moments in the playoffs before they became loaded, this is the same Kobe who gets outplayed by D. Wade every time he faces him. You know the same Kobe who gave up during the 2008 Finals and the Finals against the Pistons, where he had one good game. Oh yeah, but Kobe must be more driven and better because as everybody says, "it's absurd, Kobe's the second best player in the league hands down..." and because everybody says that, that must be the way it is and it's crazy that anybody would disagree.
And it's a shame you let the officiating from the 2006 Finals cloud your judgement on Wade's stellar performance. While I don't like to quote this as being fact because I usually disagree, Wade's 06 performance was ranked the single best Finals performance in NBA history, finishing in front of Jordan's best perfomance. There's a reason for that, without the fouls, he was incredible. You never saw a guy "make so many difficult shots as Kobe," I guess you never saw many NBA playoffs, including 2006 where Wade in the 4th quarter down in the series made clutch turnaround jumper after turnaround jumper down the stretch, in about 4 straight games. The team was on death's doorstep and he one miss would have ended it, he converted every single time, and this happened about 6 times in the series. The guy never missed, he was a one man army, double and triple teamed. It's obvious you never watched it anyway, because Shaq was on the bench with an injury for most of the series, he saw limited work. Wade's teammates consisted of 38 year old Alonzo Mourning, James Posey, Jayson Williams, the corpse of Gary Payton and Udonis Haslem. I've seen Kobe go on the radio and demand trades from better teams than that. Kobe never had a series like that.
Kobe's having a great playoffs so far (by the way it's not like that Suns team was a juggernaut of a defense or had anybody on offense Kobe needed to defend that would have tired him out either). That's all it is, a great playoffs. It's not the historical mind boggling playoffs that these kids are making it out to be, there have been several better performances not only in history but in the past decade, Lebron against the Pistons in 2007 was better. I don't think I have to mention some of the things Tim Duncan did in the early 2000's, I hope people are reasonable enough to know better than to debate that one, and then there's Shaq of course, and that's this decade alone.
Everybody get a fucking grip. The Kobe fanboyism has gotten to insane levels. The media needs a story and an icon to sell, but you people eat it up like fish on a hook.
For all the geniuses that have this idea that Kobe is a clutch player. Go check his fourth quarter shooting % on stats.com (it's 25%). The WORST in the league for a big name player. He's become such a chuck, he shoots them out of about 10 games per year down the stretch in the fourth quarter. To suggest he's even on Jordan's level in this regard really doesn't justify a response. In fact, anybody remember one of the WORST 4th quarter plays in NBA Finals history last year, you know the one where your MVP took the ball into the lane, made some jerky stupid move, everybody knew he was too much of a ballhog to give the ball up to two guys wide open on the wings. and he took such a horrible selfish shot in between 4 people at the buzzer that Hedo Turkoglu blocked him (yes Hedo Turkoglu) sending the game into overtime. Here it is:
I remember seeing that play last year saying "Wow, even Iverson wouldn't have pulled that shit." Luckily for the Lakers the Magic were too incompetent to score in overtime.
I hate this comparison with a passion, the more ppl compare Kobe to the great one, the more I hate that guy. Shaq was without a doubt a better laker than Kobe in those first 3, thats why he got all the finals MVPS, the guy was averaging 30 pts and 15 rebounds in the finals (all 3 of them).... tell me once when anyone on MJs team was outscoring him,.... im pretty sure from his first year on the bulls to his last, that never happened.
p.s. its much easier for a big man to win multiple than a scoring guard (in fact only Mike has won multiple in a row w.o a reputable scoring big man... just check the history of champions... Tim Duncan, Shaq, Bill Russell, Abdul Jabbar... all have multiple championships.. heck even George Mikan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_records
if you scroll halfway down the page to "Playoff Career", Jordan owns most of the records. If the team is good enough to make the playoffs....I want Jordan.
Kobe is a great player - one of the best of all time and probably the best player in the league, but Jordan is by far the best of all time. Jordan is possibly one of the most dominant players in sports history, period.
There is no particular reasons why i hate Kobe, i guess its just his swagger. I hat A-rod as well for the same reasons. Oh i absolutely hate Gasol, guys a racist (Beijing incident)
There is no particular reasons why i dislike Kobe, he's an unbelievable player, i guess its just his swagger. I dislike A-rod as well for the same reasons. Oh i absolutely hate Gasol, guys a racist (Beijing incident)
Jordan, but I agree with what's been said about them playing in different eras. Jordan had the benefit of coming first; we don't know what Kobe's career would have been like if he'd played during/before Jordan's time. Without Jordan to model himself after, who's to say Kobe wouldn't have created the formula for Jordan? I don't like the idea that Jordan is superior to Kobe because Kobe emulated his style...Jordan played first, what was Kobe supposed to do, put his head in the sand and not learn from players before him?
Plus Kobe came into the league straight out of highs school and not even having turned 18 yet. Jordan had the luxury of playing college ball for a few years. Somebody said Kobe's first years in the league shouldn't be thrown out cuz Jordan was winning NCAA championships or something along those lines. I mean...are you kidding? That's absolutely ridiculous for so many reasons - the college game is easier, UNC was a powerhouse, etc etc. If Kobe had gone to a similar school it's really likely he would've won championships in college too...instead he was thrown straight into the fire and playing against mature NBA players with barely a high school education. It was Kobe's own decision to jump to the NBA, but that doesn't mean college experience didn't help Jordan.
Just based on their talents as players, I think Jordan's better, but I don't think it's a slam dunk like everyone else seems to. Jordan was better at a lot of things, but I think in terms of long range shooting, defense, athleticism, and killer instinct they're comparable. I don't care what you say you "remember" cuz you watched all of Jordan's games. They're both incredible in crunch time/game winning situations, and they've both also missed their fair share of potentially game winning shots.
The thing about Kobe, and this is true in all aspects of his game and personality, is that he has never really put together a persona that people could get behind. A lot of times when he was taking over the 4th he would just do it or do it in a way that people didn't give him as much recognition for it, whereas with guys like LeBron it's like every time he makes a shot in the 4th quarter whoever's announcing the game acts like he's the messiah and the Cavs are gonna win for sure. Jordan was kinda like that too (but actually deservingly so) and he had those iconic tongue wags, the game in the Finals where he played sick, etc. not to mention being a megastar and a media darling. Even now after it's been documented that he was basically the shittiest person of all time people in the media are still loathe to say bad things about him. Kobe has a rape case, a bunch of instances of him whining to the media about the state of the Lakers/his role etc, and is just now starting to have the media hail him as an amazing player in his own right. It's always been "he's an amazing player and probably one of the best of all time, but..." and then stuff about him and Michael, him and Shaq, his immaturity, his need to be the guy and shoot too much, all that.
Oh, and Kobe is definitely the best player in the league. LeBrick has choked the past 2 playoffs away, and I can't believe anyone is actually saying he's comparable to Kobe when he totally disappeared in the crucial game of the Celtics series. At best he's like what Kobe was when Kobe was in the years after Shaq left - talented, but immature and playing with the wrong mindset. He turns it over too much, he doesn't really have a long range game, he can't even hit FTs at an elite rate, he doesn't have the right mentality, etc. Wade can do 2 things - drive and hit midrange jump shots. He is nowhere near the level of all around player Kobe is. The Heat won in the Finals cuz Pat Riley switched to the zone but mainly cuz Wade got incredibly biased treatment from the refs. I guess David Stern wasn't ok with a team whose biggest star was a German winning the finals.
This question is ridiculous.
Jordan is better, by far, than Kobe ever will be. Don't get me wrong, Kobe is one of the best players ever. But MJ had skill, desire, and leadership. Jordan is the best player of all time.
You can't even compare Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. The league was a lot tougher in the 90's, defense was tougher. Kobe would hardly compare to MJ if he were to play in Jordan's era.
Forgot to mention, the flagrant foul was invented because of how violently brutal the Pistons were in the 80s. They had a set of rules called "The Jordan Rules" in place for when they played the Bulls. The rules were as follows: If MJ goes into the lane, beat him to death. If MJ played in today's league where you can't even put a hand on the ball handler, he'd score at will.
Kobe is an amazing player, but it doesn't get better than Jordan. The arc of his career is so epic, that it's not even fair to compare anybody.
Jordan for sure.
Let's end this discussion right now.
MJ Career: PER: 28, 30 pts, 6 reb, 5 ast, 2.3 stl, 50% FG, 214 Win Shares, 0.25 WS per 48 Kobe Career: PER: 23.5, 25 pts, 5 reb, 5 ast, 1.5 stl, 45% FG, 145 Win Shares, 0.18 WS per 48
MJ better defender than Kobe.
MJ - 6 titles as the best player on the team. Kobe - was second-banana for his first 3 titles (Shaq a HOF'er in his absolute prime), 1 title as best player so far
So, statistically MJ is far superior. Intangibles MJ is superior. MJ still has more rings and better playoff performances.
Oh, and Kobe has 1 MVP. MJ has 5 MVP.
END OF DISCUSSION. People always overrate recent players as their memory fades of older players. Magic > Kobe still anyways.
+1 Totally agree. Kob is a top 10 guy. Even top5 it's hard to judge, since he was not the "man" for 3 titles.
MJ is first by a wide margin.
The whole Kobe has more game winners thing is silly. Jordan doesn't have as many game winners because he didn't let as many games get close.
The only possible reason I would take Kobe over Jordan is length of career. Jordan defends better, had to put up with getting knocked around on the court way more than Kobe, and would never let a disgrace like 2008 happen. And come on, in Kobe's prime years the Lakers put up garbage win totals like 35 and 47. You think Jordan would allow that? Kobe's good, but he's still not a team player. I can't remember which game it was, but I remember last year during the finals they almost lost (but still won) a very close game in the finals where with something like a minute left Kobe was getting double or triple teamed and had THREE open teammates and doesn't pass to any of them. He just has those nights where he thinks he needs to prove to everyone he's awesome so he'll jack up 30 shots and if he's not hitting he won't care and will just keep doing it. Oh, and Kobe has the advantage of the Internet. Easier to ride his nuts when we have to hear about it that much more often.
Hmmm. Best player of all time or someone who is arguably not in the top 5? Kobe is good but not that good. MJ could get anything he wanted offensively. Kobe can't, and evidence of that is the 2008 finals.
Kobe is only better at one thing:
Raping chicks that adjust the bathroom mats in hotel rooms
JK, but real talk. Jordan was a murderer on a pychopath level. He not only wanted to win, he wanted to completely decimate his competition. Simmons had some good snippets in his book:
-During a Bulls practice, Pippen was apparently talking a bunch of trash while he was guarding MJ. Jordan didn't like this, so he retaliated by literally scoring at will on Pippen. To the point where the coaching staff had to tell him to let up. This is against a Top 50 all-time player
-Let's not forget the 1992 Finals against Drexler. The media hyped up Drexler as a competitor for Jordan. Jordan more or less destroyed Clyde's career with 6 threes in the first half of game one (and I believe 30+ points in the first half alone). Supposedly, during the Dream Team's practices later that summer, MJ would relentlessly trash Drexler about the finals and would absolutely kill him in practice. Again, the coaching staff had to tell him to lay off a bit because he was completely killing Drexler's confidence
-Jordan had such hatred in his heart for Dan Marjele for the sole reason that Kraus (one of the Bulls big wigs) spoke highly of him before the draft. Jordan took this as motivation and absolutely RAPED "Thunder" Dan during the finals and made a point of yelling "fuck you Marjele" after they won the series
How can you even compare this assassin to Kobe Bryant, a guy who has quit on his team on several occasions.
Oh yah to add.
90s Utah >>>>>>>>> Howard's Magic or even the Celtics Big 3. I would say.
Look, I've had this argument over and over again.
Guys eat better these days, they grow bigger. Back when Jordan was playing, 6'6 SG was consider to be standard, now you have guys like Durant (6'9), Kobe (6'7), TMac (6'8), Lebron (6'8) playing the same wing position. If you put the Kobe and Jordan at their respective prime on a court, I would probably tell you Kobe will have the edge for being bigger.
But the fact is, Jordan was way more dominating in his era, there was no dispute that he was the BEST player in the game, he was miles ahead of guys like Mitch Richmond? Today we still debate about whether Kobe is the best player in the league.
Not to mention the league has gone awfully SOFT theses days, basketball was way more physical the 80s and 90s, a little bit of roughness in the paint was standard in those days, the same thing will get you ejected+fined today. It also doesn't help that Kobe had purposely imitated the way Jordan walked, the way he played, the thing he does with his tongue. For that, Kobe lived under the shadow on Jordan for the longest time when he was still young
I'm sure if Jordan was playing in this era, he would be a little stronger and bigger as well, guys were actually scared of playing as an opponent in those days. This is no knock on Kobe, though Im not his biggest fan, he is the closest thing to Jordan since Jordan's retirement. Either way they will both go down as some of the best to ever play the game.
Maybe we shall re-valuated once Kobe's is done playing, but for now it has to be Jordan.
I've already said Jordan>Kobe
Still, the three years Kobe won titles with Shaq would have been the equivalent of Jordans first three in the league (taking college into account) and I can guarantee you he would have played second fiddle to Shaq in that scenario so its ABSURD to say Jordan never played as a number two to anyone. Its a matter of circumstance.
Also, Kobe wasted most likely his best years while the lakers were rebuilding with horrendous teammates. Jordan pretty much never played on the bulls without Pippen.
Of course Jordan would have been second fiddle to Shaq, at the beginning of his career, because Shaq was an absolute monstrosity of a player at his height. Kobe was never near that level of dominant at his position when he was at his best. And to say that Kobe spent his time on average teams is no excuse. Jordan carried some average teams during the early part of his career. Magic took a terrible team to the Finals. Kareem carried a bad team almost all the way. Hakeem won two titles surrounded by average players. Wade single handedly dominated the playoffs with an average team. Lebron, for all his problems recently, took an average team to the Finals in 2007, and carried a semi-average team deep into the playoffs twice. Kobe gave up on average team and disappeared during that average team's biggest games. You do the math.
Jordan struggled a lot in his early days too. It's absurd to always hear, he's "undoubtedly" the best of all time. With the kinds of things Wilt, Russell and Kareem did...that's a bit of a stretch. Among the very best of all time? Absolutely. "Undoubtedly" the best of all time? Absolutely not, there are definitely "doubts" there. However, he is obviously a remarkable player who Kobe isn't even in the same league with.
This is probably the stupidest comment of this entire thread. You know nothing about how dominant Jordan was from the moment he stepped foot into the league. You seriously don't belong in this thread junior. Jordan wouldn't have played "second fiddle to shaq" his first three seasons, considering the fact that Jordan averaged 28 ppg, year 1; 23 PPG year 2 (only played 18 games due to ankle injury); and 37 fucking PPG year 3! Sorry, but you shot yourself in the foot with that post of yours. Jordan was embarrassing the league as a rookie, that's what people don't seem to understand. Jordan was universally known as being the best player in the league as early as his rookie year!
So please stop with the foolishness. Jordan would have still been the leader and #1 option in your imaginary scenario.
While I agree, Jordan was dominant from day 1. You can't say him in his first year was as good as Shaq in his prime. As far as all around game, he probably would have been second fiddle until year 3.
What a damn combo that would have been!
Man your insecurity level must be off the charts to start criticizing people personally on a basketball thread on a wall street forum haha. The only reason I was saying Jordan would have played as a number two to Shaq was because people were pointing out Jordan never played "second fiddle" to anyone. It is so obvious that this is a matter of circumstance is ridiculous. OF COURSE he would have, Shaq is one of the best players of all time and was in his prime! I mean, I've said Jordan>Kobe multiple times but am trying to point out how different their career paths were and to punish Kobe for his just doesn't make any sense. I was literally just talking to someone before the finals started about how absurd it was that Jordan averaged 37 ppg his third year in the league. But there was no doubt about it, the bulls were his team from day one. They were terrible before Michael and those three years you stated, the bulls were still under .500 every one.
I actually think it goes Jordan
I actually think it goes Jordan>Magic>Kobe with Jordan and Magic being much more debatable than Jordan and Kobe. Jordan's first three years happened to be three years of Magic's prime and to say Jordan was considered the best player in the league his rookie year while Magic was actually the one embarrassing the league is ridiculous. I ultimately think Jordan was better than Magic simply because of his defense. Jordan dominated the defensive end while Magic barely played any D. I also think Jordan was better than Kobe is, I've said it every post, but the reason I like Kobe so much is because too many superstars in the NBA care about things other than winning. Whatever you want to say about him, Kobe only cares about winning. In his perverse way, he also looks at winning as beating other greats in terms of championships and statistics but so did Jordan and all other players comparing themselves to history. Why did Jordan want 6 championships so bad? Because Magic had 5. I bet if Magic had 6 or 7 Jordan would have worked harder to keep the bulls together at the end there.
I lived in chicago for two years while Jordan was winning championships and will never say Kobe was better than him but not acknowledging their completely different circumstances is absurd.
[quote]For all the geniuses that have this idea that Kobe is a clutch player. Go check his fourth quarter shooting % on stats.com (it's 25%). The WORST in the league for a big name player. He's become such a chuck, he shoots them out of about 10 games per year down the stretch in the fourth quarter. To suggest he's even on Jordan's level in this regard really doesn't justify a response. In fact, anybody remember one of the WORST 4th quarter plays in NBA Finals history last year, you know the one where your MVP took the ball into the lane, made some jerky stupid move, everybody knew he was too much of a ballhog to give the ball up to two guys wide open on the wings. and he took such a horrible selfish shot in between 4 people at the buzzer that Hedo Turkoglu blocked him (yes Hedo Turkoglu) sending the game into overtime. Here it is:
I remember seeing that play last year saying "Wow, even Iverson wouldn't have pulled that shit." Luckily for the Lakers the Magic were too incompetent to score in overtime.[quote]
Oh yeah, that's the one I was referring to. Good times.
rebelcross, Dwayne Wade had a great series but the officiating was atrocious for the most part....he was bailed out time after time by the refs in ways I could never imagine.
Did you watch the series? Why should his unbelievable performance be "punished" because of the bad officiating. Just because the officiating was bad, which it was and I account for, it was still even after that among the most legendary performances of all time. Filled with clutch shot after clutch shot on death's doorstep, while being double and triple teamed. Oh yeah, and with no real teammates to help out.
The logic on this forum is astounding. Just because X happened does not automatically mean Y is the result. Bad officiating does not automatically disqualify a great performance. And Kobe got his fair share during last year's finals by the way, not that the officiating was as bad.
Go watch some game tapes instead drawing these fallacious conclusions.
I seriously cannot believe I'm hearing Wade > Kobe arguments. Okay, even if he is more driven and had the most "stellar performance" in a playoff series, which aren't true, please don't tell me you really think Wade's a better player overall, taking everything into account.
Of course you can't believe it, because everybody around you says Kobe is the best, and Kobe is better than everybody because he is the best and that's what everybody says and everybody knows it, so that's the way it is and everybody who disagrees is crazy.
How is not true. Kobe has one aspect of his game that is better, shooting...of which his 4th quarter shooting is worse than Wade's.
Career stats: Kobe: 25.3 Pts, 4.7 Asst., 5.3 Rbd., .455 FG%, .340 3Pt%, 1.52 Steals, 0.55 Blocks
Wade: 25.4 Pts, 6.6 Asst., 4.9 Rbd., .482 FG%, .289 3Pt.%, 1.83 Steals., 0.98 Blocks
NBA Finals as Team's best player, both have 1. NBA Finals on average team, Wade: 1, Kobe 0
Playoff Stats: Kobe: 25.4 Pts., 4.9Asst., 0.450Fg% 0.338 3Pt%, 5.1Rbd., 1.4Steals, 0.7Blocks
Wade: 26.3 Pts., 6.0Asst., 0.482FG%, 0.347 3Pt%, 5.3Rdb., 1.6Steals, 1.0Blocks
You tell me how Wade having a better performance than Kobe is "not true?" Is it "not true" because you say it's "not true," or "not true" because you wish it's not true.
Please everybody educate yourselves HERE: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=holl…
This should clear everything up not only on what Wade has done but what Shaq has done and why he was far better than Kobe and why Jordan was far better than Kobe. Please read all 10 and then come back and comment. Get some perspective people. Not that ESPN is 100% accurate, because I disagree a lot, but this should serve as a nice basic education for most of you.
I had the fortune of watching most of these with my own eyes.
Most of us have seen most of those with our own eyes. Your argument consists of picking statistics in which Wade has in edge and ignoring others, assuming that statistics are all that matter, using "if" situations, which should be disregarded ("if Kobe didn't have Shaq, he wouldn't have won the first three championships"), and implying that performance in one series is an accurate representation of performance throughout a career. If you're going to base everything off one series, why stop at the series level? Why not compare the best game or best quarter? Stop going back to one playoff series and not evaluating them over the course of their careers. Let's face it; basketball is a team game and championships matter. Last time I checked, 4 (soon to be 5) is greater than 1, regardless of whether you think the previous three are Shaq's championships or not. Blaming his teammates for his lack of rings, saying that he would have four if he played with Shaq earlier, etc. shouldn't be brought up because it's all speculation. If LeBron played with the likes of Parish and McHale, he could've probably won a few rings, but does that "if" assumption place him in the same league as Larry? No.
lakers anthem 2010, thsi is epic
http://www.hitfix.com/articles/2010-6-3-listen-ice-cube-ray-j-and-new-b…
suck it, celtics. west coast takes east coast beats and makes them 100x sicker.
btw, i dont think you can make a meanigful comparison between kobe and jordan. jordan's career is over and kobe is still in his prime.
lol @ Tony Kukoc
Jordan's stats and achievements are better than Kobe's by a lot. Jordan got Finals MVP 6 times and Kobe has yet to win Defensive Player of the Year.
Jordan is just the more complete player.
but lol @ DWade being better than Kobe, Wade wouldn't even tell you that
but the man you need to start talking about is Kevin Durant, if dude gains some weight he'll rape the league
Remember John Stockton's shorts? Man, they were short.
Talk about an underrated player, he was incredible. He belongs solidly in that second tier.
MJ scored 63 points against the 1986 Celtics (one of the best teams ever) in the playoffs in Boston Garden. This is still a playoff record. It was his second year.
The most epic part is that he hit two free throws with no time left on the clock at the END of the 4th quarter to send the game into overtime.
Yeah, unbelievable. However, if you remember, as a player he still had a lot to learn and a long way to go before he would really become Jordan. At that point he was an unbelievable scoring machine, but he was still very raw and learning. He wasn't ready to lead yet.
I mean, he was leading the Bulls in his second year against a top 10 all time team.
After the 63 point game, Larry Bird said they were playing against "God disguised as Michael Jordan." That's a top 5 all time player in his prime on one of the best teams ever saying that about MJ in his second year.
There is no discussion here. Kobe fanboys need to fall back.
He couldn't win chip, though.
Jordan abusing a young Kobe.
Kobe's intensity (pretty funny stuff):
To many kids on the board. I grew watching MJ and now watch Kobe. At this point MJ is still the best player to have ever played the game on and off the court. Now the way Kobe's career is going this could change but I think it's generational thing.
It wouldn't put up the rest of my post
I didn't mean its those 3 players period, you just have to bring magic into the discussion if someone says Jordan was the best player in the league his rookie year. I mean Magic was just doing things no one has ever seen before at that time.
Agree 100%. Actually, Magic was doing things nobody had ever seen (or has since) during HIS OWN rookie year.
Just read the simmons article for if Kobe wins, agree with pretty much all of it:
• He still can't touch Magic, who could have played with Zac Efron as his shooting guard and still won 50-plus games. (Same for Bird, Jordan, Russell and Kareem, by the way). But going back to the longevity thing: Magic played only 12 seasons (not counting his ill-fated comeback in '96), whereas Kobe just banked his 14th … and he's still going strong. Yeah, it's still not an argument, but you're also not getting laughed out of the room anymore.
• He will never be greater than Jordan. So drop that thought. Hell, even that 10-game stretch we just witnessed wouldn't have cracked Jordan's top-10 playoff hot streaks. But still … he can beat Jordan on years. Let's say Kobe enjoys two more top-5 MVP seasons, then settles into a "Duncan 2009/2010" type phase for the next two, then he's washed up. The sheer volume of numbers will add up: rings, All-NBAs, All-Star appearances, points scored, games played -- it will be like nothing we've ever seen. At the very least, it will be a debate. And I will get angry and tell you to shut up, and that we need to stop comparing people to Jordan, but still, it's a debate. And there's going to come a point when someone can ask the question, "If you were starting a team and could have either guy for his entire career, would you rather take MJ from 1984 to 2003 (with the five missed years of games thrown in) or Kobe from 1997 to 2016 (with 0 missed years of games thrown in)?"
So those are the stakes for Kobe Bean Bryant. A fifth ring gets the ball rolling on every argument you just read. It's certainly been a startling transformation the past three years, when he remade his career in the late stages of his prime thanks to a fortuitous trade and a breathtaking amount of hard work. He's the toughest player in the league. He spends the most time on his game. He has the best footwork of anyone. He plays the hardest. He only cares about getting better and keeping what he already earned. He has learned to trust his teammates -- not totally, but enough. I'm not sure I would have enjoyed playing with Kobe Bryant, but I certainly will remember watching him.
Stats: Kobe Dunks: Kobe Leader: Jordan Symbol: Jordan Ambassador to the game: Jordan
Best in the game: Kobe
Best for the game: Jordan
Wrong.
Jordan leads Kobe in almost every single statistical category in terms of career and playoff averages. So you're wrong there.
Jordan had a higher vertical (48 inches) than kobe, at their prime. Sorry dude, but Kobe can't hold a candlestick to Jordan in terms of leaping/air-time, when looking at MJ in his athletic prime (1988ish). But you, like most on this forum, probably weren't even born yet.
Kobe isn't even the definitive best in the game, as that title is debatable, so how the hell can you even consider him better than MJ if he isn't even definitively the best right now? Jordan was a different animal, it wasn't even a question up for debate as to who was the best in the league from about '86 on. You need to step back son.
Ya bro not sure what dunks you've seen from Kobe. I can't remember the last "WOW' dunk I've seen him throw down in a game. And an entire brand (Jumpman) is based around Jordan's dunk. Come on.
Anyone who watches basketball will know most of the moments on there. How many Kobe plays could ever make it to that level? I really can't believe this is a debate.
And an encore... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owY34aRiBNU&feature=related
Kobe did not have the finesse, leaping ability, or power that MJ had when he was in his prime. Jordan was a different animal and as the quoted individual above said, it's not even a close comparison.
stats: kobe... what stats are u looking at? dunks: kobe... what dunks are u looking at?
The fact that all the Jordan lovers have to continually trash Kobe just goes to show how great Kobe actually is; your insecurity is all the confirmation Kobe needs. There will never be another Jordan, but then again, when Kobe walks away with 7-8 titles there will never be another Kobe.
Fact is, that Jordan is so famous because he made basketball what it is today, so regardless of what anybody says, he is and will continue to be the symbol of basketball. Without him, less people would be watching basketball, but if Kobe Bryant and Jordan switched eras then who is to say that it wouldn't be Jordan ''emulating'' all of Kobe's moves.
Im from Los Angeles, but I would say kobe as a person is not a good team player by any means. I think Jordan is a more likeable person because of his sportsmanship. Only one of them has a statue of themselves.... and it isnt kobe.
Just gotta say I'm loving the thread - you guys really know basketball (and stats). A big Jordan fan growing up and agree with much of what's said - Kobe's just simply not there yet.
10243406^^ Agreed - While I think Kobe's matured a lot in the recent years or so, I still don't quite see him as the team player and leader that inspires others around him to be better the way Jordan did. I think the whole being likable thing is just how they've carried themselves. MJ was a real trash talker, and there was the whole adultery thing - but people don't give a shit. Whereas with Kobe (like his whole Shaq deal, the accused rape case) those kind of things have lingered a lot longer. MJ has been able to manage his image a lot better... but obviously being leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else had something to do with it too
There's also the larger question of a serious gap in basketball skill, statistics and ability to carry a team between not only Kobe and Jordan, but many Kobe and many other players (including a player or two from Kobe's own era). So I don't even know where this debate comes from.
Well, if I had to absolutely choose a player to compare MJ to from THIS ERA playing right now then Kobe would be the one I would choose. Because as an all-around player having multiple skills, leadership, the number of championships, etc. Kobe is probably closest.
But like you said, he's not a clear winner. He is not THE dominating factor every given night the way MJ was undeniably the king of his time. I know there was a lot of bashing on LBJ in a different forum post, but when I think of someone who has the potential to match MJ it'd be him. Not now obviously, because like so many WSOers have said, he doesn't have that killer instinct or leadership or level of maturity yet. But potential-wise, he tops Kobe because he is already carrying a team at his young age and it has taken Kobe a lot longer to be the kind of player he is today. So if LBJ can get his act together then maybe someday he can get to that point
Great video amplemannchen (and youngblood :-p).
Now that I think about this Jordan left to play baseball during his "Prime" i believe 30 or 31 years old. This was right around the time his father was murdered. You can very well make the argument that he could have added 2 more additional titles which is insane.
Jordan peaked as a scorer in the 80’s. None of us here are old enough to remember Jordan at his best.
Check out Jordan’s stats in 88. He averaged 37 fucking points game for a full season. 37!!!!
Jordan averaged 30.0+ in 8 seasons. It would have been 10 had he not retired early. Kobe averaged 30.0+ in just 3 seasons.
The real differentiator was the playoffs. Jordan elevated his game in the playoffs. His career playoff numbers: 33P/6.4R/5.7A / 49 FG %
Kobe’s #s: 25.4P/5.1R/4.9A/ 45% FG % Jordan averaged 30.0+ in 8 seasons. Kobe averaged 30.0+ in just 3 seasons.
It isn’t even close (in the playoffs)
Jordan was not at his best in the 80's, he scored his most points then but he was still a selfish player and the only scoring threat on an average team. There were times during the late 80's where he was his own worst enemy. By the early 90's he learned how to put it all together as a leader and a teammate and really dominated every aspect of the game, both with and without the ball. That's when Jordan was at his best, and the titles naturally followed.
Wtf! How can anybody claim that Kolbe>Jordan. Are you even basketball fans? Have you ever watch tapes of the old games?
In the 80s and 90s their were better basketball teams then there have been through most if not all of Kolbe's career. Magic was a far better player than Kolbe. He won 5 championships, while beating better teams.
Most of the important things have been said (Jordan dropping 63 against boston), but honestly go watch basketball when it was a sport, and not this bull shit thug ball we've been watching since Jordan left.
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