Laid off, Depressed and Giving up...
Long time lurker on WSO (just created a new account since the old one gave away my identity too easily in such a small world haha) and very thankful for this website. I went to a semi-target, but really leaning more towards non target. Through hard work, perseverance and WSO I was able to land a summer analyst role in a front office capacity within S&T. Didn't get the offer, but through hard work and networking, I was able to land a front office role at a bank. Did the role for 2 years but wanted to move more to the trading/structuring/research side of the business and was fed up with the excuses for 0 bonuses and no raises at my firm. I made the impulsive decision, which I deeply regret, to move to a commodities trading shop and took a pay cut as I felt ultimately it would be worth it for more career upside.
The firm blew up and now I'm out of a job and I feel that my career has been pretty much derailed. I worked about a year on the research side in the commodities world and now I feel that my career is in a limbo. I have markets/banking experience, but hardly enough research experience. I feel that my resume looks inconsistent and all over the place in terms of my interests/experience/career goals. I've been dropping my resume online, mostly at investment banks, cold e-mailing hiring managers with my resume for roles that I'm interested in and only landed one phone interview. I've been mostly applying to ECM, DCM, and Research roles as that's where most of my experience comes from. It's been three months now and I'm starting to seriously freak out. My anxiety and depression levels have spiked, despite taking some time off to travel to take my mind off things. My personal life and relationship are free falling to the bottom. I just feel like I'm running out of options and plan on moving back in with my parents so I don't burn through all that hard earned cash I've accumulated.
Anyway, I'm just looking for advice in terms of my job search. Could it just be that it's a slow time to be looking for roles at investment banks? Do I have too much experience that makes me undesirable for Analyst roles, but too little relevant experience to qualify for Associate roles? Is three months of unemployment on the longer end of things? I feel as though it will take me at least another three months to possibly land something, but after that I'll be at six months of unemployment and the gap on my resume will start to have a negative impact on my job search. I've also thought about applying to middle office and back office roles once I hit the 6 month mark so I can pay my bills, but then I feel my resume would look even more disorganized given that my experience would then be all over the place. I've already had to explain why I'm moving around a lot to an interviewer and why I'm no longer employed. Every time I explain the situation, I feel as though the interviewer thinks it was performance related, and it absolutely wasn't.
P.S. Currently studying for GMAT and looking to do CFA afterwards. Doing something is always better than nothing.
If you're only applying to investment banks, then you could try opening up your horizon. Maybe they don't want you, but someone else might.
If you are worried about explaining time gaps on your resume just put years. So instead of May 2015-May2017 just put 2015-2017. This could hep you cover a six month gap and even if you straddle years you can just pick up the next spot with the next year....I see it from time to time and don't really think much about it.
I've done this. With a little finesse, works like a charm.
Three months is not long. I went to a target, and some of my friends who then went on to targets for grad school were unemployed for ~6 months after being laid off. I was never laid off but spent about 4-5 months looking for a new role when I was employed in a BB.
Keep on going. A single first-round interview can lead to a job. Just a single interview.
Unfortunately it happens all the time and it's rarely discussed. There are a tremendous amount of ex bankers/ex FO types working in ops or worse, as uber drivers. All it takes is one bad career turn. Once your resume is disjointed it's very hard to repair.
Have you thought about Big 4 business valuation? Decent pay (not amazing) with opportunity for growth.
Does big 4 Bval have good job security? I see you talk about it quite a bit and I always meant to ask about that...
Almost impossible to get fired. Worst case you hang around at the same position for a while until another firm scoops you up.
Lol don't say that out loud to the hardos hahaha. Uber drivers lmao.
I haven't thought about Big 4 business valuation, but I have thought about Big 4 Advisory/Consulting and recently asked a friend of mine to get me in touch with a coworker to just pick that person's brain. I'll definitely looking into the business valuation side of things.
Hiring is also really slow right now. Full time hiring won't pick up until after January. In the meantime, studying for the GMAT is great! Is there also some continuing education classes you can take? Or maybe run your own portfolio for a bit just to say that you were self-employed at the time?
If you are interested in DCM maybe look at Commercial Banking on the Portfolio Managment side? Without a complete understanding of your career background it's hard to know if this is a good recommendation or not but we have people who move between DCM and CB. Hang in there- 3 months isn't a long time to be looking for a job. Rule of thumb is 1 month per 10k of salary.
I'll look into Commercial Banking. I have been thinking about Corporate Banking as a possible career move as a way to get back into a bank and then internally move to to my ideal career after a few years. Also the pitch book type work seems in Corporate Banking relates to what I've done in the past.
Sounds good. I use Commercial/Corporate Banking interchangeably. Best of luck and I think CB is a good career with a lot of options and transferrable skills.
How did you come up with that rule of thumb. If a job I'm looking for pays 80k, that means an 8 month average waiting time to get hired?
Sorry to hear that you're going through a tough time. First step, take a breath. Relax.
It's a scary concept to be out of a job when you don't have a source of income coming in, but you need to always realize (and believe) that better things are heading your way. Hindsight is 20/20, and a couple months from now, you'll have a eureka moment where you'll say "I see...that's why that happened!"
It's only a matter of time before you find a job. It may not be the timing you want, but it will happen. Because everyone on WSO is so damn ambitious, we often associate our feeling of self worth with our jobs. Remember, your job doesn't define you. None of that shit does. What defines you is you, and you alone. I've been in your situation, and I've felt hopeless before (like you couldn't imagine), but you can't stop believing in yourself. The entire world could be falling apart in front of your eyes, but you have to continue to believe that you will be successful at the end of the day; you have no option to do anything else. In spite of the fact that everything around you is telling you otherwise, refuse to listen to all the noise. Maintain your confidence, courage, and know that "this too shall pass".
It's awesome that you've enrolled in the GMAT and CFA; continue to be productive and focus on things that will help you grow mentally; not things that will take away from you. As for the job advice, just continue at it; it's a weird time in the market-- don't take anything personally. Again, it's all timing.
Remember, fire forges iron. You'll be a better person because of all this. Stay the course and never give up on yourself.
Thank you so much for the advice and the much needed morale boost. You're right it's definitely not the end of the world and I'll continue to be patient and hustle for the right opportunity.
No worries my dude; it happens to the best of us. Keep on keeping on.
I think I needed this too. Thanks!
Keep doing what you're doing, the key is to keep going - even if it seems like it is taking forever eventually you will come through the other side of the valley. Something will happen it is just a question of time - keep doing what you're doing and don't give up. As someone said broaden your horizon beyond the IBs, speak to headhunters and put yourself out there, just don't give up. Has happened to a load of people I know, and they all felt like the world is imploding at the time, then something happened (often when least expected) and they all got out of it just fine. The key is just keep going.
First and foremost, don't ever give up. People have gone through far more arduous journeys than what you're going through and have come out on top. This is a minor speed bump not a cliff...
That being said,
I think you have plenty of options: 1.) You have enough experience to get an IB analyst role, could absolutely try for that. Hiring slows down during the end of summer / fall but picks up very quickly in the spring. Would take the time to update your resume and start networking. 1A.) When networking I wouldn't just cold email and ask if they're interested in you... I would ask for a conversation first. I always network like this A.) Ask for an intro B.) Win the person over by asking good questions / selling yourself C.) At the very end, ask if there are any open positions or if they know of banks hiring.
2.) Not sure about an Associate level, however given the right networking opportunity anything is possible.
3.) Have you considered taking time off to do an MBA or Masters Program? Could consider taking time off to do that.
4.) You could also find another job in a different industry. From my experience candidates with former IB experience are looked on very positively in other industries.
I love John Wooden's quote, "Success is never final, failure is never fatal, it's the courage to continue that counts." Best of luck with everything!
1) When networking, do you recommend reaching out to say analysts/associates or MD's? Just curious since I'm thinking MD's are much more busy and less likely to be responsive. Also since hiring picks up in the spring not sure if you think it's smart to wait it out until then, at least for the right career/job anyway.
3) Yes, definitely considering the MBA as I'm studying for my GMAT to meet round 1 or round 2 deadlines
4) Yes expanding my career search to Big 4 advisory, corporate banking and credit analyst roles at firms such as S&P and Moody's
Analyst are a waste of time... Associates are slightly better but still very far down the ladder.
MDs are great because (although they're very busy) you're speaking directly to the decision makes and the odds of you getting an offer are higher if they like you.
Would recommend reaching out to VPs and MDs. VPs at banks are like 30ish years old, and are still very approachable / respectful of young go getters.
My first analyst job ended when my group was massively downsized..It sucks and it will take time but you honestly need to just keep grinding. It's horribly obvious advice but there is no secret to it. I must've met over 100 people in a couple month span, no exaggeration. Continue networking and something WILL stick.
Also let's be clear here, if you were let go because your group blew up, everyone will understand that. It took no more than 30 seconds to explain my situation, and I was never once disadvantaged (in my opinion). Let me know if you want any more personal advice.
Thanks a lot for the advice! Just a follow-up question on the 100 or so people you met, how did you do that? Did you go to networking events, reached out via linkedin or through friends?
Linked in mostly, and connections through ex-colleagues.
Just don't give up and find a way to stay positive. Thinking about old decisions might drive you insane. You probably chose what seemed best at the time and there is no way you can predict certain outcomes.
Had something similar about 1 year ago and I can relate to a certain extent, so don't add Sanity to the costs you've already incurred in terms of Time and Money.
Have you looked at Susquehanna International Group? They're not one of the big banks or BB but I hear good things. Their site currently lists a job opening for an E&T research associate in NYC which given your experience could be just the thing you need (see link below). Those guys have been around for a while and know what they're doing so not likely to fuck up, close shop and leave their people holding a flaming bag of shit. Anyway, I know the search is tough but the key is to persist and not give up no matter how much you might be tempted to. Good luck to you.
https://careers.sig.com/job/SUSQA004Y730/Equity-Research-Associate-E-P
Really appreciate any and all help. Yes I definitely applied to that posting when I saw it a week ago!
Don't waste your time on CFA. I just finished Level II, not worth it (I'm in hf industry too, might not even take L3)
Spend that time on job hunt or pitches. If you're going to make use of that time then don't do CFA.
If it's between TV shows, relaxing, etc. then do CFA. But seems like an extra 30 hours a week on job hunt would be more beneficial.
Also if you ever consider MBA, take as much risk as you can before you go that route and only go to a top 5 school. Seems like you can afford to take risky opportunities for another 2-4 years. After mba, with that amount of debt, you'd prefer a stable career. So don't feel shy to take some more risk.
Yeah definitely wouldn't apply outside of top 10 schools as I would probably just end up graduating with a ton of debt and possibly without a job again if the school lacks a strong on campus recruiting system. Also, why do you feel the CFA is a waste of time?
Just pure theoretical knowledge that isn't as useful as working directly on hedge fund pitches.
Up to you whether 300 hours * 3x for just the certification versus an extra 100 - 200 hours on pitch prep and job hunt is better. The latter in my opinion far outweighs the former. Always has, always will. and every friend I have in HF industry knows this and has told me on multiple occasions..
Yeah don't do the CFA at this point
Hang in there. Look at strategy and Fintech roles as well. Only attempt a top 5 MBA. You can try big 4 for a couple of years and test it out.
How long have you been working - when did you graduate?
Lateral hiring primarily happens via headhunters or primary relationships. You need to get in touch with headhunters.
The markets are super hot right now, and (I'm guessing) in hindsight this will be one of the most active times in the cycle. The packages that junior and mid level people are getting to change firms are certainly the most robust they've been in a long time. This means that a lot of firms have suddenly changing resource levels while their revenue is still doing really well, so opportunities are our there. I've even heard associates/VPs change so they can get an extended break after a rough couple of years, despite generally being happy at their current firm, and that the perks, guarantees and buyouts they're getting makes it all worth it.
Apologies for not looking through the entire thread but I saw you were looking at all avenues. If you had a preference would you stay in the commodities space and are you in the New York area?
I'm in the New York area and would be interested in the commodities space if in New York.
Its all part of the journey. Somebody somewhere needs what you have to offer. Have you looked at opportunities abroad?
How much have you saved up?
No I haven't looked at opportunities abroad mainly because of personal reasons/relationships keeping me in the New York area. I have enough savings and can always move back in with the parents to not worry about living expenses.
brolicape,
I too am in the commodities industry and have been laid off twice in three years. I've worked at a bank, hedge fund, merchant, and trading house in various capacities from trading to logistics. To say we chose the short straw of industries in this decade is a real fucking understatement.
It's a special type of hell being unemployed. I think Anon1254 summed up a lot of it very well. I'll just add some tidbits I learned along the way:
1.) if you're angry, go lift some heavy shit. That ALWAYS helps.
2.) a quote from, surprisingly, marilyn monroe: "But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.” Your character, commitment, passion, loyalty, utility, usefulness is never forged in good times; only in times of struggle do we find out who we really are and if we are truly passionate about our career. Business is war, and those who quit when shit hits aren't fit for battle.
Most analysts on bank trading desks have never known a down market. I don't want them on my team.
3.) How to play golf like Tiger Woods (an excerpt from Hannibal and Me, by Andreas Kluth... read it)
Miller calls it “green-to-tee” thinking. And, like Clausewitz, he thinks his insight applies to a lot more than its immediate context. It is really about life strategy. Ordinary golfers, and ordinary people in life, play “tee-to-green,” says Miller. They hit the “best” shot every time, which they assume to be the longest and most impressive drive, or the job with the highest pay and most power, or the rhetorical victory during a conference. Afterward they sometimes find that their big shots have led them into a “bad lie”—in the rough, where they can no longer see the pin—and they get frustrated and fail. But strategists like Tiger Woods during his best years train their minds to work in the opposite direction, and they succeed.”
“Working backward from that pin, Woods knew that he had to win tournaments, and working backward from there, Woods arrived at the conclusion that made him different from other golfers. To other golfers the basic unit, the atom, of success might be the stroke—as in: hit great strokes and you win tournaments. Woods stopped one level higher and regarded the hole as the unit of success. To Tiger Woods, strokes were the equivalent of tactical maneuvers, holes were battles to be won in order to win the tournaments, which were analogous to wars, and nineteen majors was the peace, the objective.”
4.) Steve Jobs: Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backward. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something — your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.
Good luck.. This too shall pass
Thanks a lot for the advice. Yup definitely chose the short end of the straw...
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