Hey team,
I've been hanging out in the background of this site for a couple years now, and thought it was time to reach out and see what advice I could get from the collective wisdom of the group. First, a little about me:
Graduated from a top 20 school in May 2012 with a >3.8 GPA with a major in Finance, and I am currently working at a solid middle market investment bank (Baird, Piper, Harris Williams, William Blair) doing mostly sell-side M&A in Boston. I've touched several live deals / am the only analyst on a deal I built the book for (currently drafting the CIM).
Since January, I've been tapping my school's network, cold emailing / calling in an attempt to find out about any opportunities to lateral out to a BB in NYC / Chicago. My main motives for looking to lateral out are: lack of modeling exercises / skill development and a strong desire to be in NYC / Chicago.
At the the MM level, based on the conversations I've had with my analyst friends at other MM banks, there is a greater emphasis on the marketing materials / PPT prezos than on actual modeling. All our models are templated out and are relatively simple. Companies at the middle market level simple aren't as complex and aren't engaging in some of the more complex transactions one would encounter at a BB. I want to develop my modeling skill set - something I'm not getting at my current job.
Secondly, the majority of my friends are either in Chicago or NYC, and making new friends as a banker has been a challenge. Boston is a great city, but as a fresh 22 year-old, I want my friends around me to hit the bar scene with (which closes at 2AM here) when I get some time off. Believe me, it contributes a lot more than you'd think to your overall well-being and productivity at work just to know you can text someone up in the rare instances you have time.
I've been getting mixed results; my resume gets passed on to HR, or I hop on a call with an associate, get another interview, and then things kinda fizzle. I got fairly advanced with lateral interviews for Citi, but when I spoke to a close contact there he said, he'd get back to me after staffing needs were hammered out. But then, the line went cold and no one would return my emails.
I need a new strategy - I do not want to spend another year at my current job. Every time I'm in late, mechanically pushing through text edits and moving logos, I die a little inside. I know that at larger banks, these tasks would be outsourced, and I would spend my time doing more value-add activities (or at least something that requires a small amount of thought. Please correct me if I'm misguided). *To qualify, I know PPT is part of the job, but when it's 98% of what I'm doing, I'm left feeling a bit let down.
So, I'm looking for advice and guidance on lateraling out, especially from anyone has successfully done it. Thanks guys and girls. What is the best approach? What's the right level ( analyst, associate, VP) to contact regarding a lateral inquiry? Should I reach out to headhunters for IB? I'm willing to repeat my first year and forgo my bonus.
"I need a new strategy - I do not want to spend another year at my current job. Every time I'm in late, mechanically pushing through text edits and moving logos, I die a little inside. I know that at larger banks, these tasks would be outsourced, and I would spend my time doing more value-add activities (or at least something that requires a small amount of thought. Please correct me if I'm misguided)."
Unless you're in product, that's...kinda what you're gonna be doing all day at BBs, speaking from experience. Like, the work at Citi Industrials isn't going to differ significantly from shit you're doing at Harris Williams or whatever.
If you want to lateral, go for it. But analyst work isn't going to differ significantly. Maybe the problem isn't your bank, but BANKING in general.
You need to reach out to the staffer, usually am associate or vp in the group...they are the ones who know hiring needs and can get you in. Also they have to know you are the top guy in your group and your current bank loves you, otherwise why would they hire you? Headhunters aren't bad at all...got my lateral through one of them.
Why don't you just stick it out until the end of the analyst stint and go to a MM PE in Chicago or NY? I've heard that top MM's like the ones you listed places very well in MM PE.
Maybe it's different if you're at a smaller office like Boston- not sure.
I honestly don't think it makes sense for you to lateral at this point and even if you do, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
FWIW, my roommate when I was living in NYC did his analyst stint in a regional office for one of the banks you listed and ended up with a solid MM PE gig. He basically told me that doing self study modeling for a few weeks as prep for PE interviews was more than sufficient in landing an associate role.
Thanks for the insight! I'm very self motivated and have been working through the GoBuyside modeling materials, as well as learning to build some simple LBO's from scratch. I just wish I could do it for real - feel like it would be easier to internalize it rather than just studying it.
i also think you are at a good place for MM PE. However, MM PE do have a wide range and if OP wants to work at an upper MM PE, i think you should definitely try to lateral.
You hit one of my key reasons for wanting to leave - my group typically sends analysts to VC/growth oriented PE shops (think Summit/TA) - while these are not bad places, I would prefer to end up at a place with less sourcing, and more where opportunities come to you ( Advent/Berkshire/GTCR). Less sourcing would require more modeling (something I'm not quite getting enough of at my current place of work).
However, on the plus side - I'm a key driver of the M&A process and get direct access to the C-suite of our clients, which is great. I work directly with management to create the CIM, manage the data room, and track the bid process. So in that respect, I have a more holistic deal process perspective.
Today, I was contacted about an opportunity with a boutique M&A i-bank in San Fran, was entertaining the idea, but I don't think it would solve any of my current reasons for leaving.
I am actually quite glad you brought this up because i will be in the same boat next year. I really hope everything will work out for you. Running the entire M&A process is definitely a plus for MM IB; however, correct me if i am wrong, i think bigger funds put more weight on the quality of your deals. :(
btw, wheninfinance had a great post about creating CIMs.
To be clear too - i'm not trying to get to a mega fund (I'm not sold on that type of track, nor am I competetive for that procces) What I've learned is that fit and culture are incredibly important soft factors at work. Having a good relationship with your co-workers does wonders for your motivation and product quality.
In terms of deal "quality" - I'm working on deals that range from $20-$500mm, and I would say the most common size for our analyst is in the
i will comment on this one since I was in the exact same boat as you a while back and also had a friend in the same situation.
you want to go to a BB for its exit oppo and access to good shops, right? To be honest, the ONLY ones getting those upper MM oppos are also the top groups. You are looking at groups in MS or GS, or some specific groups in Barcap, CS, etc. If you are not able to land offers from one of these shops / groups, then i would advise to not go to somewhere like Citi FIG, etc. Because those groups might be worse for you compared to your current gig in terms of exit oppos and comp.
I agree with this. Two words of advice that answer this dilemma: elite boutique.
Someone asked on WSO which MM's people would take over BB's. The general consensus I believe was that even mid to lower tier BB have better exit opportunities than top MM IBD such as Blair, Baird and etc, for MM PE. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Because a lot MM shops are looking at your transaction exp. Why would they want someone who have only done a bunch of IPOs and debt offerings (which happen often)? They would rather have someone from HW who has done tons of sellisde deals to shops and know how to run deals single-handedly. I am not going into BB group ranking here but I think most people have a good feel of what groups are good and what are not.
Why the interest in Chicago?
I have strong family and personal ties to the city
Sound advice all around - the core reason for wanting to leave is to have better opportunities after and build a skill set. I feel as though I'm getting great at making text edits and thinking about what logos to add to a deck, but not really about thinking about the operating structure of a company.
I would like to stay away from growth equity funds - I'm not sure I would like the pressure of having to develop an investment thesis once a week with a minimum of 25 or more cold calls. I would rather be on the execution side of things. In my current role, i'm pretty well groomed for growth equity.
My alumni have a limited presence at elite boutiques, but I will reach out independently.
An interesting opportunity came my way regarding an opportunity with MS Houston in their oil and gas group. I am going to investigate and see what kind of role that would have me in.
Interested as well. I wish this topic (laterals) was discussed more, as I know it's not that uncommon at the analyst level, yet I have little idea how it actually works.
I have a call tomorrow with Morgan Stanley ..reviewing my deals tonight
I was in the same boat years earlier but here's my thought
Any bank you go to, will have some of those shitty aspects. Moreover, yes, the BBs will do more modeling, but on the flip side, you will get to know the companies/industries that you are selling way better than someone would working on a buyside deal just building a model or work on a "strategic alternatives" presentation in which you build 100s of different scenarios and model them out - it's just not that deep of an exercise.
In sell-side M&A, you do get to see how PE firms or buyers look at the business you're selling, and drafting marketing materials and what not lets you learn much more about the company which is important when you interview for PE gigs when they ask you how you "think" about businesses, which is arguably more important than being able to build a LBO model which any 2nd year analyst could learn either on the job or on the side.
While I interviewed various BBs, I think unless the opportunity is for a gig at a very top notch group, not worth the lateral. I stayed, got great reviews and references, interviewed well for PE gigs (including practicing my modeling and crushing them) and landed a job at a very respectable PE firm. Anyways, my point is that the grass is not always greener on the other side - other than the NY/CHI city aspect.
Appreciate the insight.
Had a phone interview today with Morgan Stanley - went well. If the staffer gets the ok for an additional hire, I'll get the superday. I don't want to disclose what group / geography until I have it in hand, but I'm excited about it. (Not M&A for the record though)
Boston Banker would you mind sharing your experiences a bit more? When do most firms look for lateral hires? I've hear Dec/Jan and July/Aug but looks like you've had some traction during this time (March). Do these happen because of a reconsideration in headcount, or someone (e.g. first yr) quits/laterals?
Did you use headhunters, your own network, job search site, etc... How have you been able to find these openings at bulge bracket / elite boutique firms? I know that most firms don't post these openings.
@TheBlueCheese:
I started to reach out in January through my alumni network - I would shoot a few emails back and forth, but then the line would kinda go cold. There wasn't a whole lot of opportunity in the market in general. I wish I would have reached out in December, because according to the staffer at CS NYC I missed an opportunity by a few weeks.
I kept emailing and reaching out, but didn't meet with a lot of luck
This current opportunity was frankly luck. One of my good friends at another MM had been contacted by a BB about an opportunity to lateral over. My friend wasn't interested, and passed along my name to the staffer. I'm a pretty good fit for the position given my experience and background, so the staffer passed my name / resume along to the more senior guys. Nothing is set in stone, but if this goes well, I MIGHT get what i'm looking for
End of the day it's about luck and staying close and connected with your friends in the same industry. When you're working it's very easy to lose touch especially when you're spread out across the country, but it's imperative that you do because you never know when someone knows about an opportunity that you might be a good fit for.
On top of that - when I see an opportunity ( even if that means competing with my friends for) I pass it along - at the end of the day if you lose out, your friend will still remember where the opportunity came from and will be willing to help you out later.
Pay it forward
Really appreciate the answer Boston Banker... I've heard luck definitely having a big factor and it sounds like you're a similar case. Wish you the very best.
By the way, do you know of/hear lateral opportunities during the July/August time period? My situation varies from yours, but that's when I personally am trying to lateral
I've heard there is a bit more wiggle room during the june/july timeframe - analysts get bonused out/ people leave for other opportunities - but I would think those roles are then filled by the new hire class. Honestly, I'm not sure.
Quick Update: I got on the phone with BAML in Houston as well. They are losing a few people and are looking to hire. The effort is more focused on those with industry experience, but my name is in the pot with HR so we shall see. I was told MS was going to reach out this week, but haven't heard back yet. I assume I'll hear something after the Easter holiday.
For what it's worth Wells Fargo Houston is looking to hire - I decided to pass it up for a few reasons, but if anyone is looking to lateral, I would reach out and see if you can get an interview.
Until then - i'm still cranking in Boston. I have actually gotten some really good experience in the past few weeks. My staffer and VP trust me enough to write parts of the CIM i'm working on and actually keep what I write after they review it. I also was called up by an associate today to help back him up on a call with a PE buyer for one of our clients. It was pretty cool to interact directly with an interested buyer - interestingly enough, the PE buyer on the phone was an alumna from my school.
OP- I know you said you've done this mostly through your alumni/personal network but can you clarify? I feel like unless you have a close connection with someone at those specific banks & groups there's no way you'd hear about these opening. For instance, I check your typical job sites and head hunter sites for these positions. Granted, these "openings" are frequently not posted, but I would think some of the bigger firms that you mentioned in fact would...
Not skeptical but just wanted to learn how you're doing it (seems like you're doing really well with the process)
A lot of my friends are in banking, and I have kept up with the people that I have interviewed with as well as networked with while going into banking as an undergrad. Luck has played a role as well in that I reached out at the right time to the right person ( after many other failed attempts) at the end of the day, it's a numbers game and you have to cast a wide net. You put yourself out there and see what bites, and sometimes you get something and other times you don't.
That's about as specific as it gets - I reached out to people I knew and some were in a position to help out.
Any update?
Things are on hold right now - there are some internal issues regarding approval for new lateral hires that i'm waiting on at a few places.
The lateral front went a bit quiet. It seems to start and stop in bursts. A buddy of mine at DB was working with a headhunter who happened to be looking to fill a first year analyst roll at a small advisory boutique in New York. The headhunter got in contact with me, but after reviewing the opportunity, I decided to decline. I'm at a comparatively better platform.
Also, my staffer sat down with me and we talked about PE, how I should reach out and have the same discussions with the MD's and how they'll go to bat for me. I think I might actually want to do VC or growth equity - in either case i'm in a good spot. I also cover the technology vertical - another point in my favor.
I know you're looking to end up in NYC/Chicago, but Boston isn't a bad place to be for VC or growth equity either. At the very least you can start building up a network.
any update? and also quick question, how do you arrange interviews if you have to fly to NYC?
I'm back in the saddle with Citi - got an email today to talk with more of the team tomorrow.
Lucky for me, I'm in Boston - the airport is 10 minutes from my office and New York is an hour flight. I can be there an back in a day and get back in the office and work in the evening
good luck with that man. nice, so your group doesnt really care if you leave for the most of the day?
I so rarely leave the office - if I say I have a doctor's appointment no one will question me. As long as the work gets done, I'm usually able to come and go as a I please. The bullpen is out of sight of the big boys and staffer for the most part.
oh gotcha. i guess i have to work my ass off the first several months to build the credibility.
Right, I'm always the first analyst in the office..ALWAYS. I turn my work before its expected. I have a list of common mistakes that I used to make, and I always check my work against it ( ie, double spaces, commas, logos bleeding over the line etc)
It's the small things that people take note of
good pointers.
Quick Update -
I'm officially invited to MS superday, they got approval for another hire earlier this week. I'm also in advanced interviews with Citi - just need to pass one more associate for the Superday. I'm a bit rusty in my interviewing skills I realized, after I gaffed a bit with one of the Citi associates (word vomit)
The last Citi interview went well. I was asked a few technicals that I did OK at. I'm not used to working with public companies, so I rarely dig through financials, so I was a bit slower than I would have liked to be, but answered them all correctly, with a little bit of guidance.
MS superday in the pipeb- but I've been getting crushed at work with a sale-defense for a big public company ( go figure I would start pub stuff after my pub company interview questions)
I was at the Boston Marathon about an hour before the first blast. Luckily, all my friends that were running were ok. It was a scary day.
I don't have anything to add except to wish you good luck in your interviews, and I hope you find what you're looking for.
OP, for the positions you are applying for, will you be starting over as a first year analyst and going the 2015 PE recruiting route?
It depends - I will negotiate after I get the offer in hand. I would like to be a 2nd year analyst with a third year guaranteed. I think then I will be in a great spot for PE 2015 if I decide to do that ( more deals, more exp, better focus). Honestly, though, I think banking might be for me. I love transactions.
An opportunity with Guggenheim popped up. Does anyone have any insight into this firm?
I got the offer for ms Houston. Thoughts?
nice congrats!!! isnt that all energy tho?
Yea it is - cool space
Congrats. Are you going to change the username now?
What kind of answers did you give for the following types of questions, if you don't mind me asking? I'm sure lots of potential laterals get these:
Why this product/industry group now from your previous one (technology)? Why boutique/MM to this BB/elite boutique? Are you trying to jump ship to PE? Why now? How well can you make the transition from advising private companies to larger, often public ones? Tell me about your deal experience (and specific technicals surrounding it)
For question 1 - i wasn't asked this at all. I was asked more about why the geographic location (family/want to be back there etc, was my answer)
More complex deals, more deal flow, see not only M&A but also capital markets (easy answer for a BB that does all of this) the office work seems to be 50% M&A and 50% capital raises. I currently do 99% M&A
Wasn't asked - at the end of the day your modeling will need to be stronger for public cos simply because you have more information to work with to present "strategic alternatives" / potential LBOS
I knew my deal experience cold - what my revenue growth was, my multiples, why or why not a good company, and why or why not a buyer would be interested.
Nothing was too technical at the end of the day. I met with all senior people ( not a single analyst) - they wanted to know about my deals and why I wanted to move.
I was asked a few LBO questions, and was asked to pitch my technical skills - i was honest and said I didn't have a lot of real life technical skills, but that I self studied. I then walked the MD through a paper LBO that I had done on the plane ride over. He seemed impressed that I could draw up a sources / uses table and talk about how things linked together.
I came to win, I wasn't messing around. I studied 400 technical questions on my flight over, and that gave me a great deal of confidence to talk about most aspects of investment banking.
No offense, but I think you are very misinformed if you believe that debt/equity deals are more complex and interesting than M&A
Got dinged by Citi Chi today
I'm not implying that debt/equity raises are more complex - but M&A would be with larger public companies. I would like to see some capital markets action.
thts a great set of events, i just read everything. glad to see you working hard and get the MS offer! lets us knw if you take it :)
Any update?
A few things: I had a superday with JPM NYC, and I have done several video conferences with Barclays and another office of Morgan Stanley. Still waiting to hear back, but not super hopeful. I think my lack of real technicals from my current job is hurting me.
I kinda flubbed a few of them and things are not looking too bright. The other MS office i originally interviewed with said that they need a headcount OK, I've got the position.
what do you mean by "lack of real technicals"...from your previous posts, my understanding was you self studied all the technicals and could answer theoretical technical questions, eventhough you did not necessarily work on those technicals? For example, if you know how to fully build an LBO model, eventhough you did not build one at work, would they care?
I can think of tons of technical questions that would trip me up simply because I haven't worked with public companies (treatment of options, accretion/dilution, etc.). This might be what OP was referring to. Doing a $200M private to PE M&A deal simply doesn't translate to something like a $2B public to public M&A deal - they aren't in the same universe.
Oh wow seems like things have been picking up. What do you mean by real technicals?
To the comment above - that's what I mean. I have to do it to really get a firm grasp on it. I had an interview with a small boutique in NYC - mostly tech focused.
Quick update guys:
I had an opportunity I got through networking to interview with the JPM. Turns out I got the offer today. I told the other banks I was in process with, and now the interest and offers rolled in. So far I'm sitting on MS, Barclays and JP Morgan. I have to decide in the next few days. What would you do?
MS in houston? what group at jpm? i'd personally take JPM nyc. congrats on the offers!
Congrats! I'd pick JPM in NYC assuming it's a good/decent group
JPM LevFin - 2 years on the cap markets side and 2 years on the origination desk. MS LA BarCap Consumer NYC
JPM lev fin definitely. Those are great offers though!
I've heard MS LA places VERY well in PE/has fantastic deal flow. keep in mind the LA office though has an M&A group and a coverage group (healthcare? not sure, but for some reason I think HC) so which group would matter. even though its not NY, its still MS and a top shop in LA. congrats on all the offers though man that's awesome :)
*to add- Barcap consumer recently lost like 5 MDs and global group head (all for consumer) recently. not sure if this matters just thought i'd share! congrats again.
In LA there are two groups - M&A and Corp Fin. The analysts get cross-staffed. The CorpFin group is a general West Coast coverage group - Retail/Consumer/Tech/Media (ie. typical west coast things). I hear they place well into West Coast PE.
Of the 3 second years: 1 is going to a tech start up, 1 is going to 3rd year for Hong Kong, 1 is going to PE in San Fran.
I didn't know that about Barclays. Didn't they just kill it with the Smithfield deal?
congrats!!! your jpm offer is for 4 years? Since you said you want to be in nyc, i think JPM is definitely the way to go.
I believe that was their retail team, not consumer.
Good work man, you're persistence and hard work paid off! So nice to see.
4 year program?! not sure if I'd want to commit to JPM anymore...
I'm going to go with JPM. I can't wrap my head around LA, even if it would be the better learning experience
Questions about the role - just curious. Are you an analyst for 2 yrs and then associate 2 yrs? Maybe they're saying its 4 yrs assuming you stay. I would think you can find exit opps after 2 yrs in JPM Levfin on the CM side
That's something that I need to find out about this longer term stay they want out of me.
Pulled my buddies on the Street, and had a lot of conversations with the MS LA office today (something to note, all the big boys ( md, ed) had NYC experience first) and it boils down to two different paths. MS offers quite a bit of option value, but it's LA (kinda out of the loop from the rest of the world of finance) JPM gives me less optionality and I won't get the technical skill set I want until the 3-4 year. Overall, though it's still the SLF group in NYC
What about Barclays C&R? Doesn't seem like there's much info on the group here on WSO...
congrats dude!
i stand corrected. good call!
Well at Barcap you'd be in NYC and get all the technical experience because they don't outsource to an M&A group. Thoughts?
I made a final decision - I'm heading to MS in LA.
Awesome stuff. Congrats and enjoy the West Coast.
So in my experiences with decisions like this, there are always 2 or 3 main points that push you one way or the other; care to share your deciding factors?
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