Law degree -> investment banking?

QGKZ:

I can't tell if this guy is a troll or just genuinely clueless.

The latter, so some help would be appreciated.

He is a troll! Jonathan Sidwell is an investment banker in Suits

Bigass_Spider:

Very different fields.

That said, if you want to be a corporate lawyer and specialize in M&A it's a very profitable field....assuming you can get into a top tier law school(otherwise forget it). Just don't confuse it with investment banking.

Thats not exactly my point. I just found out recently that investment banking is a career I might want to persue but I wonder how much of a chance you make with a law degree in stead of a degree in economics/math/engineering.

It probably is worth mentioning that I'm from the Netherlands and a key difference between the US and the Netherlands is that in the Netherlands you can go directly to law school after high school in stead of spending a few years in undergrad first.

Interesting posts.

In Australia, the most common profile for IBD analysts is a cookie-cutter double degree in Commerce and Law. Although, it is worth mentioning that practising law only requires an undergrad degree here.

you'd get in out of yale law...but yale is ridiculously hard to get into. thats what the author of FIASCO did.

lawyers are respected b/c their schooling gives them better skills than an mba does. but usually work experience is less, if there even is any

i've seen it happen its mostly because of affirmative action, you'd fare well taking this path.

Patekphilippe,

I don't know if that was an insult or casual comment, but if it was meant in a derogatory manner, grow up please.

Jimbo,

Who is the author of FIASCO?

frank partnoy...it's a good book, sort of an inferior remake of liar's poker

Yes, if you go to a good lawschool you could run for an associate position. However, you should try to do your summers at a transaction oriented bank like Simpson Thacher, Latham & Watkins etc.

Yes, I've seen it. Some people have practiced M&A and then made the jump to banking, others have gone straight to banking. Just as an example, check out the breakdown at McKinsey between MBAs and APDs (JDs, MDs, PhDs, etc:)

http://www.apd.McKinsey.com/jump/meet.asp

Obviously, they poach a ton of HLS folks.

bump

I think you are definitely going to be in "banking limbo".

A job I took out of B-School was as a Sr. Associate in corporate finance, specifically within a consulting firms' investment banking/corporate finance arm. Anyway, there was someone in my training class that was a recent law school graduate. He got an entry level consultant position at our firm. He was miserable in training... just lost, couldn't keep up. I don't even think he lasted six months to be honest!

You are 1/2 way done with law school. Keep at it. I think you should go out and practice in a corporate & securities or M&A practice group. Once you start your law career and actually practice in the field you might change your perspective. Perhaps you've been burdened working your way thru law school, I dunno.

Also, although you're a finance undergrad, you have no direct relavent work experience to fall back on. The amount of time someone is going to have to spend to train you would make you an expensive candidate vs. someone straight out of undergrad with a solid internship under their belt.

How realistic are your chances of a summer analyst internship? I believe if you try to pursue a summer analyst position you're going to be wasting your time, wind up disappointed, further frustrated etc. Your best course of action is to pursue a summer position within a corporate M&A group. Albeit, you can at least get some kind of transaction experience. Listen, just bite the bullet, keep the law studies going... get out and practice law for at least 2 years. In the interim, network, network, network and then maybe, just maybe someone may cut you a break down the road... i.e. if you find you still desire banking... you might wind up liking law after all. Give yourself that chance!

[My intention isn't to sound like a bitch... mean no disrespect.]

I feel for ya man...if you do decide to go into corporate law/M&A, it sucks! The lawyers work as hard as or harder than the bankers, and don't get paid as much!

But I do think that working in the corp fin division at a big law firm would be your ONLY shot at getting into banking a little later down the road.

I was talking to a lawyer friend about that very topic the other day, and he unfortunately seemed to think that that scenario is highly unlikely to work nowadays.

On the other hand...Wasserstein was a lawyer at Cravath before becoming Wall Street's reigning Master of the Universe. Maybe you can be, too.

Why are your grades below average at a 2nd tier law school? If you wanted to score a banking gig as an associate, your best bet would have been to pull down a 3.8+, get on law review, score a summer associate position at a big firm in NYC, and then after 2 or 3 years attempt to lateral over to a bank as an associate.

4 years ago, firms used to recruit lawyers straight out of law school into IBD (sometimes even to associate positions). I have no idea to what extent, if at all, this still happens but you may wish to look into it. If you have a finance background and have top grades, I'm sure with enough effort, you'll be able to get a summer internship at an investment bank after your second year.

Class rank?

I am in a similar situation: BBA in Finance undergrad, working for a top management consulting firm currently, but considering banking/law. why was law such a mistake?

You telling me you went through 3 years of hell in law school and you want to start off as an analyst at an investment bank, when you could have just done what most of us have which is just coast through undergrad to land these gigs? I would definitely go on the law side and no reason why you cannot do finance on the law side, something like Skadden.

People want to become lawyers for more reasons than just the money, and truth is the only drawback about law is that you have to go through law school, which you already did. Most of us kids want to do i-banking because its the best overall thing to do out of undergrad but coming out of law school to do ibanking??!?!?! That is like coming out of MBA school and taking an analyst i-banking job as opposed to associate. Do you really want to be 26 or 27 years old and still get shit on everyday doing pretty mindless work. Hell I don't mind it at age 21 but put me 3 years of hell in law school and there is no way in hell would you find me starting as analyst at an investment bank. Lot of good law firms out there, other than Skadden, and I am sure the work is more interesting than what you would be doing as an analyst at an i-bank. Also, do you really want to be on the same level as immature bastards like myself and others on this board with your experience and background?

dude you are getting into IB for all the wrong reasons, you have shitty grades, non target, no related education, just chasing money. A firm would see that, but i dont think you will get many interviews. Lawyers can make bank, but lifes not all about money.You dont even know what your getting into, working 100 hours a week doing modeling, do you even know what that is? I dont mean to bring such bad news, but bro your 27... get goin here

Sorry for double-posting. My second point is that 100hrs on mind-numbing work is not so scary to me, because that's what I'm going to be doing in a law firm, anyway. So it really does come down to what my chances are to get into IB, and whether its smart financially.

You have no chance. Enjoy being a lawyer.

Lawyers coming out of law school can make the same amount as i-bankers, I think somewhere around 120k+ so I don't know why your saying you won't make that for 10 years. There is money in law and no one can argue against that, so you are foolish to believe i-banking is the only place where you can make bank. I agree, a lot of life is about money, but if I was in your situation I would be focusing on law and see how I can make money there. You going into i-banking would be the same as me studying business and then want to jump right into a doctor without going to medschool just because there is money there. Do law and be good, and you will make just as much

I think your figures are off. I have been thinking about law school at Big Ten U and the average lawyer from a makes $85,000 starting out. You have to think most of these kids go and work in the big city in its state (think Columbus, Indianpolis, Minneapolis, etc.), and $80,000 there would be comparable to $100,000+ in a real city like New York or Chicago.

I don't know where you go to law school but Indiana while good isn't great. Big Ten U is ranked in the same area as North Carolina, Colorado, Alabama, Georgia, Maryland, Wake Forest, and other Big Ten schools. So if you go to any reputable school you will start out with more than than your typical Big Ten U graduate who makes $80,000 in Midwesternville.

Hmm, maybe 100k in 10 years is a bit pessimistic - I guess I hope to be bringing in 130k+ within 10 years or so in a law firm. No chance I could beat that in IB?

So then the problem is that I dont have the quals to get into even the lower levels of IB? As I've said before, I'm willing to put in the hours and work my way up.

I understand your situation but I think your making a huge mistake. Your in debt which blows, but you have to remember 1st year salary doesnt mean shit compared to your salary in 10 or 15 years. It just baffles me someone could waste the past 3 years of their life like you and just go straight IB. I do not know where everyone is coming up with their numbers, but first year salaries for good law firms is on par with first year i-banking salaries. And also remember don't be so sure your going to make 120k first year in i-banking as that is only if you get in the top bucket. My thoughts are you go where you are good at and the money will come, because going where the money is and not being good doesnt do you any good

Market salary at a top firm (think Vault 100) in NYC is $160k with a roughly $30k bonus for first year associates out of law school. In most other major markets like Chicago or LA, a first year will still bring in about 175k all in (though there are some firms that match NYC numbers).

Coming out of law school, you are in an interesting predicament with respect to investment banks. You will probably find that they will be more reluctant to hire you as an analyst than as associate, though by no means does that mean an associate position will be easy to come by. I go to a top 5 law school, and even here, there are very very few people heading into investment banks (though I couldn't say to what extent that is a function of self-selection - it is law school, after all) without any sort of WE in finance.

While it is definitely an uphill battle, it is not an impossibility. The best advice i can give is for you to reach out to alumni who have graduated from your particular school and made in into an IB role. Best of luck!

Thanks for the advice, IBanon. Looks like another trip to the (mostly useless) Career Services Office is in order.

Which actually makes me wonder - at your law school, is the CSO just as worthless as it is here, or do they actually try to bring employers for more than just the top 15%? I understand, of course, that a degree from a top-5 school may just sell itself. I've just heard that, even at my school, the MBA CSO is lightyears ahead of the law school.

So then if you get a JD/MBA to go into IB is that a waste of time????

Just curious.

I thought NYC firms started at $145k. And if you make like $110k in Chicago or something that IS about $145k in New York.

Try and get the best offer you can for law, and try to specialise and develop a solid practice in an industry /area you want to see yourself as a finance professional in (whether TMT etc... whatever). That will give you a better chance to break into finance at at a level above analyst (beleive it when ppl here say it is hell) as you will have solid expertise and experience in assesing the risks involved in that industry.

The ability to evalaute, judge and take a solidly defensible call on industry, sector or type specific risk is a very valuable skill set good lawyers have. It is transposable into an investment situation.

There have been threads here where people have stated that v.good distressed funds are run by lawyers.

I am not in finance, but i am trying to take the above path. What others commenting on this thread have said is true, dont run after the 'seemingly' fastest way to pay off your debt but rather look at what will optimise your chances of earnings that match your potential and ability over a lifetime.

To decide that you need to figure out what you want to do and what you feel, based on how well you know yourself, you'd excel at.

All the best.

for years and am now an investment banker. I had to go back and get my MBA to get into banking. When you want to jump directly w/o an MBA, if you want to go to a BB, you have to work at one of the highly respected premier New York law firms. That's the only way that you're going to get credit enough to move directly to banking IF you don't have any finance background. You should practice for 3 years, go to a top-20 MBA program and then get into banking. People do it all the time.

400K debt. WOW!

Fuck, this is why you DON'T go to law school. You'll be updating some noob's financial models on excel at 27 while 25 yr olds will be associates. Go be a lawyer, you should have sorted this shit out before you spent three years of your life mooting and wearing nancy robes and shit.

I think you are all way off base with your levels. This past year all but 4 of the vault 100 (evidently lawyers rank the prestige of their firms entirely with vault.com) raised their NYC starting salary to $160k. Cheaper cities pay somewhat less, but the low end is Atlanta and Charlotte, which pay $110-$120. This ignores the year end bonus that can be $10-$20k (possibly more since some firms have billable hour based bonuses, the more you work, the more you make).

I would say that a salary of $160k is much better than what analysts make since you will definitely get paid that much (no relying on discretionary bonuses).

Honestly, if you think your grades are not good enough to get a job in the top 100 law firms, then how can you expect them to get you a banking job? There are far more law firms than there are top banks. It is possible to go from law school to banking, but you've gotta have the grades for it, just like you do if you came out of an MBA or undergrad. The banks might be willing to hire someone who has their pick of the top firms, but still chooses banking. On the other hand, they definitely do not want someone who is using banking as a fallback to law, despite having spent 3 years and $150k learning law.

If you're still dead set on getting into finance (even though there is a very good chance it pays less than law), your best bet is a smaller boutique or MM bank somewhere outside of NY. The pay will be less (making law more attractive), but at least you may get a look from them.

Personally, I think you should just get the best legal job you can in practice that supports transactions. Then, try to make contacts with the people you work on deals with. Once you gain experience, you might be able to switch. However, your ability to switch is directly related to the prestige of the firm you work for and the quality of experience you gain.

160 is high - i'd say average 120k for a big firm in a big city.

http://www.abovethelaw.com/skaddenfreude/ (this link has a list of posts about law pay)

Basically, in January, one firm raised starting salary in NYC from $145 to $160. Since then, almost every other firm followed.

Only 4 of the top 100 firms do not pay NYC Associates $160k starting. It is extremely competitive, so when one firm raises pay, the rest follow almost immediatly.

Also, when they raise the pay scale at the low end, everyone above the low end gets a raise onto the new pay scale too. Therefore, basically everyone got a raise of $15k this past year.

This level of pay is actually pretty attractive compared to analysts and associates (especially when lifestyle is factored in). However, as people have noted, you have to go to law school for 3 years. Also, the long-term comp. potential is nothing compared to banking.

I am a 3rd year Law student also and I will be starting with a BB i-bank this summer as a 3rd year analyst.

Being a lawyer sucks (corporate law anyway). You do the shittiest part of an M&A deal, work just as much and get paid half of what an i-banker does. However, I would 100% go to law school again even If I knew that I was going into i-banking. I know a everything there is to know on corporate taxation, takeover regulations, securities regulation and Antitrust laws (not to mention all of the other basic courses like Contracts, M&A law and business organizations that I know inside and out).

All of this helps very little for the modeling that I will be doing my first couple of years but it will be a huge asset when it comes VP time...I can structure the shit out of a deal. I doubt many associates know how to structure acquisitions and restructurings to yield a dozen different tax consequences. Or if a potential merge will be challenged by the DOJ, or of all of the takeover regulations and defenses that can be employed.

Nonetheless, you HAVE to have more than a basic knowledge of finance. I was an accounting undergrad. I also did the joint JD/MBA and am a level 3 CFA candidate. Therefore I know how to rip apart financial statements. Without this knowledge I doubt that you will get hired. I also had great grades, I was in the top 10% of my law class and already had multiple offers at Big-Law. I just interviewed with I-banks to expand my options. They loved my law/mba background but they grilled the SHIT out of me to assure that I would be able to stand up to the plate (finance-wise). In the end, I had no work experience so they started me out as a 3rd year analyst (Ill only be there 9 months) which I actually recommended and would prefer b/c I want to fully understand all the modeling and comp analysis so that I may be an effective associate.

To answer your question (and you're not going to like this)...I think you may have started too LATE to get into i-banking. You should have been taking all the right classes and studying on your own to become seasoned in finance. You couldn't even interview as an associate b/c they hire in the fall. Even analysts have been hired already for BB. If you have a really good contact then you can apply for next year...I would suggest studying finance all summer if so.

On compensation...

Big law firms pay $140 per year for Non NY/Chicago/LA markets.

Big Law in NY/Chicago/LA pay $160

Bonus for both is 10k to 20k...depending on your billable hours.

But that is ONLY if you are in the top 15-20%. Otherwise you are lucky to get $100-120k all in.

The pay goes up about $10k per year (chump change). You usually get the Partner nod after 7-8 years and you have a strictly negotiated salary...thus your salary can range from $200k to infinity…depending on how much business you bring in).

In Sum: I hate to tell you b/c I am in debt also, but I think your planning was VERY bad...so your best route is to stick to whatever law offer you can find. Hopefully you can stick to M&A law and after you structure 30-40 deals, you can come over to IB as a VP....MAYBE.

Alright kids at home, moral of the story is to not do what this guy did

Is the joint JD/MBA program three years like the JD

I just read that!

I have never heard of some crazy shit like that. Did you go to private school in under grad AND law?

Are you middle class (parents cant pay and you cant qualify for financial aid).

I thought I had it bad (sitting on about $160k)...but you put mine to shame.

I think that although your chances are slim, you should still apply to all the BB's. I mean between coming from law, the russian thing and such maybe you'll just seem different and at least get some interviews. Not to discount the opinions of the people on the board (since i value them and they helped me) but no one can tell what a recruiter is thinking on a certain day. I mean roll the dice, worst case scenario you never hear anything back...

you have zero experience, no nothing about finance. Your grades are to shitty to get into law, but you think they are good enough for banking. I got news pops, they rexruit from the same top schools, only they are looking for grades and experience. focus your energe on being a good lawyer and you will make so bank.

p.s. you dont have to pay your gf's (or bf's however you swing) 400k

Why Charlotte? Go to DC, tons of law jobs here.

$70k starting? My Dad's firm pays their summer associates almost that much (pro-rated, of course).

DC is the hardest market to get into.