6/10/10

a lot of the prop firms and options market makers discussed on here are in chicago ... does anyone know of any major ones (ones that pay a salary, good reputation, etc.) in NYC , besides Trillium, FNYS and Jane Street ?

Comments (76)

6/10/10

hey man, you might want to join these 2 groups:

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/group/best-prop-trading-firms-with-base-pay
//www.wallstreetoasis.com/group/proprietary-traders

Good Luck,
Patrick

Financial Modeling

6/10/10

the only NYC prop firms worth working for are jane street and FNYS. most of the good ones are in chicago.

6/11/10

False

6/11/10
TopTrader:

False

Chicago dominates prop trading. Look at all the top shops in chicago as opposed to NYC. I don't see how this is even debatable.

6/11/10

There are plenty more firms than just JS and FNYS in NYC that are worth while. Additionally, a lot of props in Chicago also have places in NYC as well.

6/11/10

Read the comment. Then make your laughable statement.

"the only NYC prop firms worth working for are jane street and FNYS. most of the good ones are in chicago."

This is an opinion! 8th grade grammar goes a long way.

6/11/10

There's smart people everywhere. That said, my experience is that Chicago is the prop shop capital while New York is the sell-side trading capital. There are smart bankers in Chicago; there are smart traders in NY who work for prop trading firms.

GETCO, Jump, Sun, CTC, Rosenthal-Collins, Wolverine, Peak6, and myriad other firms are all trading powerhouses, and they are all based in Chicago.

6/11/10
IlliniProgrammer:

There's smart people everywhere. That said, my experience is that Chicago is the prop shop capital while New York is the sell-side trading capital. There are smart bankers in Chicago; there are smart traders in NY who work for prop trading firms.

GETCO, Jump, Sun, CTC, Rosenthal-Collins, Wolverine, Peak6, and myriad other firms are all trading powerhouses, and they are all based in Chicago.

exactly. the only NYC prop shops that manage to recruit talent from top schools are jane street and FNYS. the elite chicago prop shops all get very top-notch people. guys who land gigs at getco, drw, jump, could easily have worked at bulge bracket banks.

6/11/10
jjc1122:

exactly. the only NYC prop shops that manage to recruit talent from top schools are jane street and FNYS. the elite chicago prop shops all get very top-notch people. guys who land gigs at getco, drw, jump, could easily have worked at bulge bracket banks.

Bit of an understatement. I got in at two BBs; got turned down at a Chicago prop firm. The smartest guy I know got offers from MS, Lehman (now Barcap), Citi, and GS, but turned them all down for Citadel's proprietary trading operations.

There's smart people everywhere; when it comes to prop trading, though, there are more smart people in Chicago. That said, if you want to be "elite", go to NYC so you can avoid all of the debates about Big Ten football and how domestic beers stack up against each other. IMHO, Chicago's success at proprietary trading has to do with its lack of arrogance- something many of us New Yorkers need to work on.

6/12/10

Lets not go on a midwest jerk frenzy here.

Jane Street and Susquehanna are arguably the 2 best prop trading shops period. All those other operations have their roots in Chicago because most are focused on exchange traded derivatives which were based in the Chicago exchanges (CBOE etc). However, as trading has moved into screens that benefit has eroded. This is why you have companies like SIG/JSC competing as well as they have.

Wolverine/DRW all have substantial NYC operations. This is the 21st century, capital is mobile and focused on global nodes. Lets also not read too much into midwestern values helping these firms.Their business models are very different from the banks for better or worse. At the end of the day, they still recruit most of their applicants from the typical top-10 schools (especially SIG, jsc, drw).

OP> Look at all the prop firms spoken about in other threads. Most have operations in NYC. Apply and brush up on your probability/math questions.

6/12/10
baddebt88:

Lets not go on a midwest jerk frenzy here.

Jane Street and Susquehanna are arguably the 2 best prop trading shops period. All those other operations have their roots in Chicago because most are focused on exchange traded derivatives which were based in the Chicago exchanges (CBOE etc). However, as trading has moved into screens that benefit has eroded. This is why you have companies like SIG/JSC competing as well as they have.

Wolverine/DRW all have substantial NYC operations. This is the 21st century, capital is mobile and focused on global nodes. Lets also not read too much into midwestern values helping these firms.Their business models are very different from the banks for better or worse. At the end of the day, they still recruit most of their applicants from the typical top-10 schools (especially SIG, jsc, drw).

OP> Look at all the prop firms spoken about in other threads. Most have operations in NYC. Apply and brush up on your probability/math questions.

getco, drw, jump, recruit aggressively from illinois due to their strong computer science background. also berkeley and carnegie mellon does well.

with the impending passage of the financial reform bill, which will force derivatives to go from OTC to exchanges, look for chicago to take an even more important role in trading. I even heard a guy at a NYC BB say in a recent conference that the financial regulations will hurt NYC and benefit Chicago.

6/12/10
jjc1122:

getco, drw, jump, recruit aggressively from illinois due to their strong computer science background. also berkeley and carnegie mellon does well.

with the impending passage of the financial reform bill, which will force derivatives to go from OTC to exchanges, look for chicago to take an even more important role in trading. I even heard a guy at a NYC BB say in a recent conference that the financial regulations will hurt NYC and benefit Chicago.

Berkeley and CMU are hardly midwestern schools. Both are heavily recruited for bank quant and S&T positions (CMU especially).

The legislation being argued is not going to make as much of a overhaul as they are being touted to have by the politicians (many of whom have maybe a 5% idea of what in the world they are talking about. if you want proof of our politician's incompetence in understanding these products, listen toe hearing questions. its painful and frightening). Many of these prop shops do not have the financial backing necessary for certain products and many of the financial products in their present form aren't even capable of being executed in an exchange ala futures.

Regardless of the regulation, those pits aren't coming back. The exchanges will be screen based which will retain the playing field in NYC/London as thats where the present expertise is in (most of the present shops do not have expertise in these products. many have been in a steady decline since the start of last decade as margins in their products have diminished an order-2 of magnitude). Remember, Chicago grew its dominance in futures because it was a central location in the nation's farmland. Credit isn't grown in Ohio farms, so we are good.

6/12/10
baddebt88:
jjc1122:

getco, drw, jump, recruit aggressively from illinois due to their strong computer science background. also berkeley and carnegie mellon does well.

with the impending passage of the financial reform bill, which will force derivatives to go from OTC to exchanges, look for chicago to take an even more important role in trading. I even heard a guy at a NYC BB say in a recent conference that the financial regulations will hurt NYC and benefit Chicago.

Berkeley and CMU are hardly midwestern schools. Both are heavily recruited for bank quant and S&T positions (CMU especially).

The legislation being argued is not going to make as much of a overhaul as they are being touted to have by the politicians (many of whom have maybe a 5% idea of what in the world they are talking about. if you want proof of our politician's incompetence in understanding these products, listen toe hearing questions. its painful and frightening). Many of these prop shops do not have the financial backing necessary for certain products and many of the financial products in their present form aren't even capable of being executed in an exchange ala futures.

Regardless of the regulation, those pits aren't coming back. The exchanges will be screen based which will retain the playing field in NYC/London as thats where the present expertise is in (most of the present shops do not have expertise in these products. many have been in a steady decline since the start of last decade as margins in their products have diminished an order-2 of magnitude). Remember, Chicago grew its dominance in futures because it was a central location in the nation's farmland. Credit isn't grown in Ohio farms, so we are good.

The smartest kids at the top schools are routinely turning down NYC BB jobs for elite chicago prop firms. The money is better, and Chicago is a more livable city.

6/13/10
baddebt88:

Lets not go on a midwest jerk frenzy here.

Jane Street and Susquehanna are arguably the 2 best prop trading shops period. All those other operations have their roots in Chicago because most are focused on exchange traded derivatives which were based in the Chicago exchanges (CBOE etc). However, as trading has moved into screens that benefit has eroded. This is why you have companies like SIG/JSC competing as well as they have.

Susquehanna is based in Philly. If you are including Susquehanna, I get to include the Milwaukee firms.

Wolverine/DRW all have substantial NYC operations. This is the 21st century, capital is mobile and focused on global nodes. Lets also not read too much into midwestern values helping these firms.Their business models are very different from the banks for better or worse. At the end of the day, they still recruit most of their applicants from the typical top-10 schools (especially SIG, jsc, drw).

That's true. In fact, GETCO has NYC operations too. At all of these places, like working for an NY BB in Chicago, somebody in Chicago will be telling you what to do if you're working for a Chicago prop shop.

OP> Look at all the prop firms spoken about in other threads. Most have operations in NYC. Apply and brush up on your probability/math questions.

The only difference is that, again, unless you're willing to move to Chicago after a few years, there's not much future at the NYC branch of a Chicago prop shop. Same goes for the Chicago branch of an NYC BB.

You can do prop trading from anywhere, but you'd have to be crazy to deliberately pay an extra 12% in income taxes for the privilege of doing it in NYC.

6/13/10
IlliniProgrammer:

Susquehanna is based in Philly. If you are including Susquehanna, I get to include the Milwaukee firms.

Go for it. I can assure you Milwaukee of all places doesn't have a prop firm that is in the same league as SIG. Reason why I include them is that there are plenty of ex-SIG in NYC shops.

That's true. In fact, GETCO has NYC operations too. At all of these places, like working for an NY BB in Chicago, somebody in Chicago will be telling you what to do if you're working for a Chicago prop shop.

Most of these firms operate in products and strategies similar to a bank. You have your exchange operations (Amex, CBOE, NYMEX etc) plus the product vertical. There isn't someone in the Chicago office telling a trader how to run his book in NYMEX.

The only difference is that, again, unless you're willing to move to Chicago after a few years, there's not much future at the NYC branch of a Chicago prop shop. Same goes for the Chicago branch of an NYC BB.

You can do prop trading from anywhere, but you'd have to be crazy to deliberately pay an extra 12% in income taxes for the privilege of doing it in NYC.

This is subjective. I sure as hell will pay the extra 12% to not freeze my ass off in the midwest and be near my ties. I respect that you don't like NYC but there are a ton of people out there who love this city and its culture.

6/13/10
baddebt88:

Go for it. I can assure you Milwaukee of all places doesn't have a prop firm that is in the same league as SIG. Reason why I include them is that there are plenty of ex-SIG in NYC shops.

Well, let's see. Marshall & Isley, Milwaukee Investment Group- don't forget BP's proprietary energy trading arm, which controls 25% of the open interest in most energy products on the NYMEX- they're in the Chicago suburbs. There's a lot of proprietary trading operations in Milwaukee and the Chicago suburbs. There's a lot of proprietary trading operations everywhere- even high-tax NYC. That said, you need to have a three inch hole in your head to pay an extra 12% in state and local taxes for the privilege of having your prop trading business based in NYC. Chicago offers prop trading firms 85% of the talent that NYC offers with 20% less tax relative to their net-of-tax income.

Most of these firms operate in products and strategies similar to a bank. You have your exchange operations (Amex, CBOE, NYMEX etc) plus the product vertical. There isn't someone in the Chicago office telling a trader how to run his book in NYMEX.

Umm, yes there is. The guy at the NYSE is usually executing trades for the guy in Chicago. I can't speak to ALL of the firms, but I know enough about the situation at GETCO and BP, for example, to say that the traders at the exchange are mostly just carrying stuff out for the guys back in Chicago.

This is subjective. I sure as hell will pay the extra 12% to not freeze my ass off in the midwest and be near my ties. I respect that you don't like NYC but there are a ton of people out there who love this city and its culture.

You're paying 10% extra for the privilege of being in NYC rather than Connecticut.

Again, you can do prop trading from anywhere, EVEN NYC. That said, you'd have to have a three inch hole in your head to WILLINGLY trade out of NYC. Talk to your tax accountant; he'll agree with me. This isn't about NYC being too crowded or filled with nasty people or even cost of living; this is about 15% of your after-federal-tax income getting eaten up by taxes.

6/12/10

Look the argument isn't whether the people at top schools are turning down bank for prop (and I can argue with prop to bank as well). The posts are to highlight that just because these firms are based in Chicago that doesn't mean you have to be in Chicago in order to partake in prop trading. As I have mentioned before, SIG and JSC are arguably the two best firms in that industry and they are both non-Chicago. In addition, I mentioned most of the successful Chicago HQed firms have good NYC offices (Wolverine, DRW).

The question asked by the OP is about NYC prop offices. Not one where a couple of midwest transplants (that seem have NYC-based careers) drum up Chicago to make it sound like trading nirvana. It is not and is becoming increasingly harder as their bread and butter of exchange based derivative market making is moving on screens so location is becoming less important.

6/12/10
baddebt88:

Look the argument isn't whether the people at top schools are turning down bank for prop (and I can argue with prop to bank as well). The posts are to highlight that just because these firms are based in Chicago that doesn't mean you have to be in Chicago in order to partake in prop trading. As I have mentioned before, SIG and JSC are arguably the two best firms in that industry and they are both non-Chicago. In addition, I mentioned most of the successful Chicago HQed firms have good NYC offices (Wolverine, DRW).

The question asked by the OP is about NYC prop offices. Not one where a couple of midwest transplants (that seem have NYC-based careers) drum up Chicago to make it sound like trading nirvana. It is not and is becoming increasingly harder as their bread and butter of exchange based derivative market making is moving on screens so location is becoming less important.

GETCO is better than SIG or JSC. And DRW's NYC office only does commodities, so it's rather limited.

6/12/10

Lets not go too far with our Getco love. Being mysterious doesn't mean being the best. They are a HFT shop. I remember seeing you asking questions about Getco so I doubt you have much experience with the firm. SIG/JSC are derivatives market makers, Getco is HFT stock. Very different marketplaces.

JSC/SIG trades a lot more products and has been incredibly successful in the markets. Being great in an incredibly narrow strategy doesn't make for being #1 in such a broad industry as prop trading (can refer to MM, firm discretionary, FI/comm/equity mkts).

6/12/10
baddebt88:

Lets not go too far with our Getco love. Being mysterious doesn't mean being the best. They are a HFT shop. I remember seeing you asking questions about Getco so I doubt you have much experience with the firm. SIG/JSC are derivatives market makers, Getco is HFT stock. Very different marketplaces.

JSC/SIG trades a lot more products and has been incredibly successful in the markets. Being great in an incredibly narrow strategy doesn't make for being #1 in such a broad industry as prop trading (can refer to MM, firm discretionary, FI/comm/equity mkts).

by your reasoning, RenTech is not great because they are also secretive and mainly does HFT equities.

The fact of the matter is, GETCO is one of the most selective financial firms period (prop, hedge fund, BB).

6/12/10

Rentech is not prop and is not even relevant to this arguement. However, here is what I know about RenTech without ever being involved with them:
-They have compounded returns better than any other hedge fund over the last decade
-They have billions in AUM
-Their founder is worth billions
-They are involved in equities, futures, currencies, everything.

Here is what I know about Getco:
-They are a prop firm in Chicago
-They do equity HFT
-They have no performance figures
-They have become prominent because of this new focus on HFT.

SIG/JSC - bunch of different strategies in different markets ranging from exchange derivatives, stocks, stat arb etc. They have a much bigger footprint when you consider the markets they trade as well.

Being secretive doesn't mean anything. Everyone knows how good Rentech is. Their strategy might be secretive but their performance (with their SCALE): public.

As for selectivity> I suggest looking through past WSO threads about SIG/JSC/other prop selectivity. They are as selective while targeting a larger pool of candidates vs Getco (focus on programmers as for them systems = everything).

Come back when you have better reasoning for your position. The OP's question has been answered and I don't want this midwest mafia to get too worked up.

[Edit: Streamlined arguement]

6/12/10
baddebt88:

Rentech is not prop and is not even relevant to this arguement. However, here is what I know about RenTech without ever being involved with them:
-They have compounded returns better than any other hedge fund over the last decade
-They have billions in AUM
-Their founder is worth billions
-They are involved in equities, futures, currencies, everything.

Here is what I know about Getco:
-They are a prop firm in Chicago
-They do equity HFT
-They have no performance figures
-They have become prominent because of this new focus on HFT.

SIG/JSC - bunch of different strategies in different markets ranging from exchange derivatives, stocks, stat arb etc. They have a much bigger footprint when you consider the markets they trade as well.

Being secretive doesn't mean anything. Everyone knows how good Rentech is. Their strategy might be secretive but their performance (with their SCALE): public.

As for selectivity> I suggest looking through past WSO threads about SIG/JSC/other prop selectivity. They are as selective while targeting a larger pool of candidates vs Getco (focus on programmers as for them systems = everything).

Come back when you have better reasoning for your position. The OP's question has been answered and I don't want this midwest mafia to get too worked up.

[Edit: Streamlined arguement]

GETCO accounts for 15% of all equity volume. Employees there make TONS of money. It's not uncommon to see kids in their 20's making high six/low-seven figures a year.

Get your facts straight before you bash the midwest prop firms.

8/16/11

Getco is not as secretive as you may think. They self clear, so if you even a bit intelligent, you should be easily able to find out the volumes, and exchanges they trade. Mind you all these places have at least a toe in Dark Pools, but you can get a really good idea.

Do some thinking, research, then come and talk like an expert

"Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation causes your worst fears to come true"

Financial Modeling

6/12/10

I don't think baddebt was bashing the midwest prop firms -- I'm sure he would agree they are legit places... He is merely arguing for the viability of NY and you are being defensive about Chicago. Your replies to him though are not grounded very logically. Go up and reread the whole thing thread.

6/13/10

NYC? ... lol, lynx capital!

Still not sure if I want to spend the next 30+ years grinding away in corporate finance and the WSO dream chase or look to have enough passive income to live simply and work minimally.

6/13/10

Those are you examples? Wwe are talking about BP now? The conversation is about proprietary trading firms. If we include any and everything considered prop lets see I can start talking about Hull-SLK (Goldman's option arm), nearly every BB's options desks, prop desks, HFs (remember they take prop risks too), HFTs like Tradeworx or GS....hell everything under the planet. Some of the nation's biggest prop RISK TAKERS reside in the tristate area. However the purpose of this conversation is dedicated prop firms that typically are involved in market making. Not anyone that is allowed to take on prop risk.

Getco's strategy doesn't resemble what Peak6, DRW, Wolverine or any of the other Chicago prop shops you mentioned. I am not expert but I have a bit of experience at a competing options place and have friends doing FT. Getco's chief actually is on record in the WSJ that they would like to get involved in HFT derivatives but the platforms aren't like the stock platforms yet. Getco is focused almost exclusively on programmers because there trading is exclusively via systems. This is reflected in their hiring of CS majors and people with programming exp almost exclusively. On the other hand those Chicago options place hire for three categories: assistant traders (good grasp on probability and math), quant (modelers etc), and programming (these are the guys keeping the pipes clean and building the technology). HFT stock's don't really have greek exposure to manage, a floor to deal with etc. So I wouldn't use your knowledge of Getco to generalize between all prop firms. Taking nothing away from Getco or HFT strategies of course, its just a different strategy.

As for the tax, again stop bringing up unnecessary points. Ok you live in CT...you would still be employed in the NYC office not commute to the midwest. That makes your original point of paying 12% extra tax even less on point as you would be saving it.

OP wants NYC prop firms, they exist, he can apply to them, and get great experience. End of story. I don't think SIG or JSC are having issues growing by being located here and I would bet they know a little bit more about this industry than either you or I.

A couple of you other guys are pleasuring yourself endlessly while having a pic of the Chicago skyline set as your desktop background. Being in NYC isn't going to be like chopping your foot off when trying to get into prop like some of you guys are suggesting.

I hate internet pissing matches. Chicago has prop firms, NY has prop firms. I leave it up to readers to figure out where to go.

[Made edits for grammar and spelling]

6/13/10
baddebt88:

Those are you examples? Wwe are talking about BP now? The conversation is about proprietary trading firms. If we include any and everything considered prop lets see I can start talking about Hull-SLK (Goldman's option arm), nearly every BB's options desks, prop desks, HFs (remember they take prop risks too), HFTs like Tradeworx or GS....hell everything under the planet. Some of the nation's biggest prop RISK TAKERS reside in the tristate area. However the purpose of this conversation is dedicated prop firms that typically are involved in market making. Not anyone that is allowed to take on prop risk.

Well, it's form vs. substance. BP does more proprietary trading than most BBs; I'd call it a proprietary trading firm. At the bank I work for, we've got a dozen prop traders on the equity derivatives side. GETCO has dozens and dozens. And BP probably has six or seven times as many commodities prop traders as we've got- and probably more commodities traders than any prop trading firm.

If you want to be a prop trader, you probably want to be in Chicago. Or at least Connecticut where you'll save 9% in state and local taxes.

Also again with the Getco. Getco's strategy doesn't resemble what Peak6, DRW, Wolverine or any of the other Chicago prop shops you mentioned. And I know a bit about these options places (no expert but I have experience at a competing firm and have friends doing FT at these places).

Well, unless you've been in industry for three years, I might have more experience in these areas. See my posts on GETCO, options market-making, etc. The fact that you think NYC is the capital of prop trading really leads me to think you're newer to the industry. If you were claiming that some place in CT was the capital of prop trading, I'd let you get away with it, but high-tax NYC is the last place in the country you'd want to have a prop trading operation. Ideally, it would probably be Texas or Nevada, but not every trader wants to carry a shotgun in the back of their pickup truck. :D

Getco's chief actually is on record in the WSJ that they would like to get involved in HFT derivatives but the platforms aren't like the stock platforms yet. Getco is focused almost exclusively on programmers because there trading is exclusively via systems.

Not true. They hire traditional traders as well and actually bought several specialist operations on the NYSE a few months ago. That said, most of them report to programmers, ironically enough.

This is reflected in their hiring of CS majors and people with programming exp almost exclusively. On the other hand those Chicago options place hire for three categories: assistant traders (good grasp on probability and math), quant (modelers etc), and programming (these are the guys keeping the pipes clean and building the technology). HFT stock's don't really have greek exposure to manage, a floor to deal with etc while these options places have first/second derivative risks to manage. So I wouldn't use your knowledge of Getco to generalize between all prop firms.

I agree with some of the first parts, but then how do you explain why Jump and GETCO have risk managers? I've MET one of Jump's risk managers, and I know GETCO has them, too. I probably know more than I should about which markets both firms do business in, but it's more than just equity underlying stuff. A lot more. Think about the exchanges that are in Chicago and what products they trade. For every product on that exchange, there's a Chicago prop firm making a market on it- and the bigger prop shops probably do business in half the products traded out there. CTC, for example, deals EXCLUSIVELY in options.

As for the tax, again stop bringing up unnecessary points. Ok you live in CT...you would still be employed in the NYC office not commute to the midwest. That makes your original point of paying 12% extra tax even less on point as you would be saving it.

I actually live in New Jersey and take the PATH in every morning. Why would I want to pay an extra 4% in city tax on my income?? If I lived and worked in CT, I'd be able to save another 5% in state taxes, but as it stands right now, living across the river doesn't hurt me on the tax front relative to CT.

OP wants NYC prop firms, they exist, he can apply to them, and get great experience. End of story. I don't think SIG or JSC are having issues growing by being located here and I would bet they know a little bit more about this industry than either you or I.

Again, SIG is in PA where the maximum state income tax is 3.1%. Watch what happens if PA raises state and local taxes to 14% like in NYC.

A couple of you other guys are pleasuring yourself endlessly while having a pic of the Chicago skyline set as your desktop background.

Actually, I've got a guy going Hang Gliding on the Warren Dunes (Lake Michigan's Indiana shore) on my background, but close enough. :D The goal has ALWAYS been to get back to Chicago where beer is $2.50/pint, $300K buys a REALLY nice condo on Grant Park, and conversations are about something intellectually stimulating like Football, rather than boring stuff like philosophy and international politics. :D

6/13/10
IlliniProgrammer:
baddebt88:

Those are you examples? Wwe are talking about BP now? The conversation is about proprietary trading firms. If we include any and everything considered prop lets see I can start talking about Hull-SLK (Goldman's option arm), nearly every BB's options desks, prop desks, HFs (remember they take prop risks too), HFTs like Tradeworx or GS....hell everything under the planet. Some of the nation's biggest prop RISK TAKERS reside in the tristate area. However the purpose of this conversation is dedicated prop firms that typically are involved in market making. Not anyone that is allowed to take on prop risk.

Well, it's form vs. substance. BP does more proprietary trading than most BBs; I'd call it a proprietary trading firm. At the bank I work for, we've got a dozen prop traders on the equity derivatives side. GETCO has dozens and dozens. And BP probably has six or seven times as many commodities prop traders as we've got- and probably more commodities traders than any prop trading firm.

If you want to be a prop trader, you probably want to be in Chicago. Or at least Connecticut where you'll save 9% in state and local taxes.

Also again with the Getco. Getco's strategy doesn't resemble what Peak6, DRW, Wolverine or any of the other Chicago prop shops you mentioned. And I know a bit about these options places (no expert but I have experience at a competing firm and have friends doing FT at these places).

Well, unless you've been in industry for three years, I might have more experience in these areas. See my posts on GETCO, options market-making, etc. The fact that you think NYC is the capital of prop trading really leads me to think you're newer to the industry. If you were claiming that some place in CT was the capital of prop trading, I'd let you get away with it, but high-tax NYC is the last place in the country you'd want to have a prop trading operation. Ideally, it would probably be Texas or Nevada, but not every trader wants to carry a shotgun in the back of their pickup truck. :D

Getco's chief actually is on record in the WSJ that they would like to get involved in HFT derivatives but the platforms aren't like the stock platforms yet. Getco is focused almost exclusively on programmers because there trading is exclusively via systems.

Not true. They hire traditional traders as well and actually bought several specialist operations on the NYSE a few months ago. That said, most of them report to programmers, ironically enough.

This is reflected in their hiring of CS majors and people with programming exp almost exclusively. On the other hand those Chicago options place hire for three categories: assistant traders (good grasp on probability and math), quant (modelers etc), and programming (these are the guys keeping the pipes clean and building the technology). HFT stock's don't really have greek exposure to manage, a floor to deal with etc while these options places have first/second derivative risks to manage. So I wouldn't use your knowledge of Getco to generalize between all prop firms.

I agree with some of the first parts, but then how do you explain why Jump and GETCO have risk managers? I've MET one of Jump's risk managers, and I know GETCO has them, too. I probably know more than I should about which markets both firms do business in, but it's more than just equity underlying stuff. A lot more. Think about the exchanges that are in Chicago and what products they trade. For every product on that exchange, there's a Chicago prop firm making a market on it- and the bigger prop shops probably do business in half the products traded out there. CTC, for example, deals EXCLUSIVELY in options.

As for the tax, again stop bringing up unnecessary points. Ok you live in CT...you would still be employed in the NYC office not commute to the midwest. That makes your original point of paying 12% extra tax even less on point as you would be saving it.

I actually live in New Jersey and take the PATH in every morning. Why would I want to pay an extra 4% in city tax on my income?? If I lived and worked in CT, I'd be able to save another 5% in state taxes, but as it stands right now, living across the river doesn't hurt me on the tax front relative to CT.

OP wants NYC prop firms, they exist, he can apply to them, and get great experience. End of story. I don't think SIG or JSC are having issues growing by being located here and I would bet they know a little bit more about this industry than either you or I.

Again, SIG is in PA where the maximum state income tax is 3.1%. Watch what happens if PA raises state and local taxes to 14% like in NYC.

A couple of you other guys are pleasuring yourself endlessly while having a pic of the Chicago skyline set as your desktop background.

Actually, I've got a guy going Hang Gliding on the Warren Dunes (Lake Michigan's Indiana shore) on my background, but close enough. :D The goal has ALWAYS been to get back to Chicago where beer is $2.50/pint, $300K buys a REALLY nice condo on Grant Park, and conversations are about something intellectually stimulating like Football, rather than boring stuff like philosophy and international politics. :D

You're trying way too hard, Illini. The notion that people in NYC only talk about philosophy and politics is such a hyperbole that it's laughable. Yes, NYC is more intellectual than Chicago because it attracts accomplished people from all across the world, rather than just big 10 grads from the midwest. To me that's an asset, not a negative.

6/13/10
jjc1122:

You're trying way too hard, Illini. The notion that people in NYC only talk about philosophy and politics is such a hyperbole that it's laughable. Yes, NYC is more intellectual than Chicago because it attracts accomplished people from all across the world, rather than just big 10 grads from the midwest. To me that's an asset, not a negative.

Again, it takes a 100 IQ to talk about football. It takes a 120 IQ to talk about diplomacy. It takes a 140 IQ to be able to talk about diplomacy and philosophy, but still enjoy having a simple conversation about domestic beer. :D

6/13/10

-Prop trading as it refers to on this thread refers to options MM firms. By bringing in BP, you are saying you consider any org taking prop risk to be a prop trading firm. If thats the case the tristate area is the highest concentration of prop risk takers in the US. Also, CT is tristate. Last I checked, people commute to CT/NJ/NY regularly. I don't hear about a Chicago guy commuting to CT so for all intents and purposes CT/NJ/NY are grouped toegther.

-SIG is a corporation. They have presence in NYC/Chicago/abroad. They would stay there just as the people at JSC or the big banks stayed here. There isn't any talent drain from not being in Chicago for SIG or JSC.

-Getco may be involved in eqd but thats not their primary business. Unless the CEO of the company was lying to WSJ, I will take his word for it. Also, even F500 has risk managers. Having RMs doesn't mean they are managing same risks as the options MMs.

-You equate your utility to everyone's utility. You don't want to pay 4% so obviously no one wants to pay 4%. I am sorry, there are a couple of million people forking that amount to NYC who clearly don't take your view.

At no point has it been suggested NYC is capital of prop trading. See my past posts. I acknowledge Chicago has good prop firms but provide options for people looking to prop trade in NYC area. Some of these firms are as good if not better than ones in Chicago. So if unless you believe JSC/SIG/SLK etc are worse in their operations than chicago shops, there really isn't an argument.

That is all. Can't believe such a simple point has generated 1k+ word arguments. Not much more value can be added to this discussion so I will refrain from posting on this.

OP> Another piece of advice for finding prop shops in NYC, go to nuclearphynance.com Search the career section. You can find a lot of them ranging from HFTs to options.

6/13/10

Wow! Baddebt88 got absolutely owned by Illini.

NYC is a terrible place to live. So filthy, expensive, crowded, ugly, and the people are obnoxious elitists. And for single men it's awful because there are so few attractive women.

6/13/10
quantum:

Wow! Baddebt88 got absolutely owned by Illini.

NYC is a terrible place to live. So filthy, expensive, crowded, ugly, and the people are obnoxious elitists. And for single men it's awful because there are so few attractive women.

I know NYC such a terrible place. Now Chicago thats the place of dreams!!! When the Jews spoke of the promised land, they didn't mean Israel...they meant CHICAGO of course! I hear you walk into Chicago and if you pass their test you get a starting position paying $10 million dollars at GETCO. Your desk also has Megan Fox stashed underneath it so that she can relieve you when market pressures get too intense. I also hear penthouse apartments with butlers go for $2 a MONTH!!!!!

The city is clean and beatiful and the people....just WOW! They are gorgeous and smart (think Stephen Hawking's brain mating with Gisele Bundchen). YET they are so down to earth!

God...I need to move to Chicago ASAP. Millions of people have it wrong. The world has it wrong I tell you! When the world thinks of the US they should NOT think of New York City, that cultural and economic cesspool, but the utopia that is Chicago!!!!!!!! Chicago women fart lavendar and their men piss grey goose. Wow!

6/13/10
baddebt88:

I know NYC such a terrible place. Now Chicago thats the place of dreams!!! When the Jews spoke of the promised land, they didn't mean Israel...they meant CHICAGO of course! I hear you walk into Chicago and if you pass their test you get a starting position paying $10 million dollars at GETCO. Your desk also has Megan Fox stashed underneath it so that she can relieve you when market pressures get too intense. I also hear penthouse apartments with butlers go for $2 a MONTH!!!!!

When Jews spoke of the promised land, they didn't know it yet, but they were referring to Richard Dawkins' dream of an Atheist England. (Sorry, religious joke- couldn't resist.)

$10 million first year sounds pretty high for GETCO; if you take off a zero, though, that's not 100% out of the question, though I've never heard a specific instance of that happening. Naturally, you have to be a good cultural fit for GETCO; if you're a good cultural fit, you probably won't spend more than $60K of that money your first year. :D

The city is clean and beatiful and the people....just WOW! They are gorgeous and smart (think Stephen Hawking's brain mating with Gisele Bundchen). YET they are so down to earth!

Actually, they are overweight. But that's OK; Chicagoans have big bodies, but they've got big hearts, too.

God...I need to move to Chicago ASAP. Millions of people have it wrong. The world has it wrong I tell you! When the world thinks of the US they should NOT think of New York City, that cultural and economic cesspool, but the utopia that is Chicago!!!!!!!! Chicago women fart lavendar and their men piss grey goose. Wow!

Well, no matter which way you look at it, New York is a really dirty city. That doesn't mean Chicago is as clean as Minneapolis, but it's a lot cleaner and more open than NYC. (This is the advantage of having your entire city burn completely to the ground in a fire 140 years ago while NYC has been around for three times as long.)

Chicago is also on Lake Michigan, which unlike the East River, lets you swim in it without fear of getting skin cancer or mesothelioma. You can actually row down the Chicago river without needing to be contaminated if you fall in. (I'm not joking about this. 10 years ago, if you were practicing crew for Columbia on the Hudson and fell in, you needed to call emergency services and they would decontaminate you onshore when you got out.)

Aside from Houston and Dallas, it's got the lowest income tax of all the big cities in the country.

The winters are horrendous, but you get used to them. The city has its good points and bad points, but NYC isn't really all its cracked up to be, either, and Midwesterners have listened to NYC get oversold for the LONGEST time.

6/13/10
IlliniProgrammer:
baddebt88:

I know NYC such a terrible place. Now Chicago thats the place of dreams!!! When the Jews spoke of the promised land, they didn't mean Israel...they meant CHICAGO of course! I hear you walk into Chicago and if you pass their test you get a starting position paying $10 million dollars at GETCO. Your desk also has Megan Fox stashed underneath it so that she can relieve you when market pressures get too intense. I also hear penthouse apartments with butlers go for $2 a MONTH!!!!!

When Jews spoke of the promised land, they didn't know it yet, but they were referring to Richard Dawkins' dream of an Atheist England. (Sorry, religious joke- couldn't resist.)

$10 million first year sounds pretty high for GETCO; if you take off a zero, though, that's not 100% out of the question, though I've never heard a specific instance of that happening. Naturally, you have to be a good cultural fit for GETCO; if you're a good cultural fit, you probably won't spend more than $60K of that money your first year. :D

The city is clean and beatiful and the people....just WOW! They are gorgeous and smart (think Stephen Hawking's brain mating with Gisele Bundchen). YET they are so down to earth!

Actually, they are overweight. But that's OK; Chicagoans have big bodies, but they've got big hearts, too.

God...I need to move to Chicago ASAP. Millions of people have it wrong. The world has it wrong I tell you! When the world thinks of the US they should NOT think of New York City, that cultural and economic cesspool, but the utopia that is Chicago!!!!!!!! Chicago women fart lavendar and their men piss grey goose. Wow!

Well, no matter which way you look at it, New York is a really dirty city. That doesn't mean Chicago is as clean as Minneapolis, but it's a lot cleaner and more open than NYC. (This is the advantage of having your entire city burn completely to the ground in a fire 140 years ago while NYC has been around for three times as long.)

Chicago is also on Lake Michigan, which unlike the East River, lets you swim in it without fear of getting skin cancer or mesothelioma. You can actually row down the Chicago river without needing to be contaminated if you fall in. (I'm not joking about this. 10 years ago, if you were practicing crew for Columbia on the Hudson and fell in, you needed to call emergency services and they would decontaminate you onshore when you got out.)

Aside from Houston and Dallas, it's got the lowest income tax of all the big cities in the country.

The winters are horrendous, but you get used to them. The city has its good points and bad points, but NYC isn't really all its cracked up to be, either, and Midwesterners have listened to NYC get oversold for the LONGEST time.

Lake Michigan is alright, but during the summer i prefer being in an actual ocean. NYC summers are lousy, but at least you can get out to the hamptons or cape cod. In Chicago, I have no oceans nearby.

I'm gonna stop bashing Chicago since you love that city. We just have to disagree on this.

6/14/10

If anybody wants a list of trading firms in NY send me a PM with your email. Most of them are market makers, but some have prop trading. The list isn't perfect nor complete, but it might be helpful.

edit: Here is a link to the list.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Amo239V3HZ...
NYSE Members in NY: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Amo239V3HZ...
Nasdaq members in NY: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Amo239V3HZ...

6/14/10

Dude did you just make a point for point comment about a paragraph I wrote clearly as a joke?

Yea, I see why you are unhappy in NYC.

Total> Thats a great list. Thanks I am going to add that for my records. One place I also used for research was exchange membership directories.

6/14/10

From an out of towner...I have been to both cities NY & Chicago. New York pizza is way better, Chicago is much cleaner. Both cities sports teams are terrible hahaha sorry rivalries. Still, if I'm thinking finance, I am definately thinking NYC. Maybe taxes are higher, well thats because you get paid a helluvalot more! Living in NYC is an experience worth paying for, it's not just a place to sleep every night.

Yea I know this has nothing to do with the topic. My bad.

8/19/11

derivatives is so insecure its hilarious. lol @ this kid

8/19/11

Based in NYC: JSC, HRT, Tower Research, Two Sigma (IM), KCG (if this still counts)
Have offices in NYC: DRW, Jump, Teza, Citadel (HF)

Most of the firms in NYC are HFTs apart from JSC.

They recruit from the top-tier schools, MIT/Harvard/Princeton and others for STEM majors, also if you aren't a CS major you need to know how to program, primarily in C++ and/or Python. Be strong at math. You can check out any of the careers pages on their sites, they are similar across the board.

8/19/11

Add Five Rings to the mix, Flow is also here although definitely a step below from the mix.

8/19/11

Virtu is also very good although I don't think they do much on-campus recruiting.

8/19/11

Jane Street doesn't require a programming background?

8/19/11

You must be looking for discretionary shops.

Trillium
T3
SMB Capital
First NY Securities

8/19/11
Ramblin_Rebel13:

You must be looking for discretionary shops.

Trillium
T3
SMB Capital
First NY Securities

Doesn't SMB Capital charge its students for its training program?

8/19/11
kmgilroy89:
Ramblin_Rebel13:

You must be looking for discretionary shops.

Trillium
T3
SMB Capital
First NY Securities

Doesn't SMB Capital charge its students for its training program?

You can (to my knowledge):
1. Purchase the training programs by themselves at anytime
2. Get hired out of college and receive free training. They are a bit selective in this route so you must be able to show that you're passionate about trading and have traded your own account (size doesn't matter, as long as it's real money).

Though they don't pay you a stipend during training, you're able to start trading just after a month. First NY pays a small salary, but you have to wait over year before you begin trading their capital.

8/19/11

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

8/19/11
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

8/19/11
kmgilroy89:
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

I'd also suggest working for Lehman Brothers.

8/19/11
Nabooru:
kmgilroy89:
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

I'd also suggest working for Lehman Brothers.

Ah...just trying to be funny. Have anything substantive to add?

8/19/11
kmgilroy89:
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

He's just a random jackass that doesn't understand how trading shops work. Most of the folks on this forum don't understand how 'trading' at a shop like Jane Street is any different from a place like SMB Capital.

8/19/11
Ramblin_Rebel13:
kmgilroy89:
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

He's just a random jackass that doesn't understand how trading shops work. Most of the folks on this forum don't understand how 'trading' at a shop like Jane Street is any different from a place like SMB Capital.

Hey hotshot, check out this link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sar....

8/19/11
Nabooru:
Ramblin_Rebel13:
kmgilroy89:
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

He's just a random jackass that doesn't understand how trading shops work. Most of the folks on this forum don't understand how 'trading' at a shop like Jane Street is any different from a place like SMB Capital.

Hey hotshot, check out this link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sar....

I apologize. Honestly, it's difficult to understand who is joking on this forum and who isn't. I've had one too many arguments with people on here who will not take the time understand in's and out's of prop trading.

8/19/11
Ramblin_Rebel13:
Nabooru:
Ramblin_Rebel13:
kmgilroy89:
Nabooru:

SMB is absolutely the best, on par with Jane Street. I would totally work there man!

Were you paid to write this?

He's just a random jackass that doesn't understand how trading shops work. Most of the folks on this forum don't understand how 'trading' at a shop like Jane Street is any different from a place like SMB Capital.

Hey hotshot, check out this link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sar....

I apologize. Honestly, it's difficult to understand who is joking on this forum and who isn't. I've had one too many arguments with people on here who will not take the time understand in's and out's of prop trading.

no worries dude

8/19/11

I get the impression that SMB and T3 do not pay a salary. I heard on this board FNYS is going under. I don't know how credible that is though. I contacted HR and asked about it, they told me that they didn't know and to apply. HR really sucks.

8/19/11
kmgilroy89:

I get the impression that SMB and T3 do not pay a salary. I heard on this board FNYS is going under. I don't know how credible that is though. I contacted HR and asked about it, they told me that they didn't know and to apply. HR really sucks.

I can tell you for a fact that SMB doesn't pay a salary, to some people's disbelief. Discretionary trading is an 'Eat what you kill' environment. Meaning if you don't make money, then sucks for you. If you get good, though, your 'salary' is whatever you make minus a cut that you pay to the firm. T3 shares a floor with SMB in lower Manhattan and they're always happy to let people come by and see the place.

I haven't heard anything about FNYS. Most folks on this board see them as the most 'reputable' since they do pay out a small salary during training, but I don't know anyone that's gone through their training or that has traded with them.

8/19/11

isn't First NY about to go under?

8/19/11

Chimera was one that I looked at, but they only pay a draw of $2K a month...

8/19/11
protectedclass:

Chimera was one that I looked at, but they only pay a draw of $2K a month...

That's the other name I was trying to think of.

When thinking about all these trading shops, you need to find out:
-How long have they been around?
-Do they have a training program? If so, how long and detailed is it?
-What % cut do they pay their traders?
-What kind commissions do their traders pay?
-Do they encourage a constant learning environment?
-What is the turnover rate?

8/19/11

I added Chimera Securities to the list. However, the reviews on Glassdoor say the training program is weak. If it's weak I'm not sure how they can afford to pay a salary. A strong training program is very important to me.

8/19/11

Jane St. Capital

I win here, I win there...

8/19/11
8/19/11

drw

8/19/11

Knight

8/19/11

Trillium

8/19/11
8/19/11

J.T. Marlin

8/19/11
Midas Mulligan Magoo:

J.T. Marlin

Dang, these guys blew SMB Capital out of the water in terms of media whoring.

Epic quote:
"Become an employee of this firm, you will make your first million within 3 years. Okay, I'm gonna repeat that, you will make a million dollars, within three years of your first day of employment at J.T. Marlin. There's no question as to whether you become a millionaire working here. The only question is, how many times over. You think I'm joking....I am not joking. I am a millionaire. It's a weird thing to hear, right? Lemme tell ya, its a weird thing to say: I am a fucking millionaire. And guess how old I am...27, you know what that makes me here? A fucking senior citizen. This firm is entirely comprised of people your age, not mine. Lucky for me, I happen to be very fucking good at my job or I'd be out of one. You guys are the new blood. You are the future swinging dicks of this firm. Now you all look money hungry and that's good. Anybody who tells you that money is the root of all evil, doesn't fucking have any. They say money can't buy happiness. Look at the fucking smile on my face! Ear to ear baby! You want details, fine. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet. What's up? (slides keys across long table) I have a ridiculous house at the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible, let me tell you what's required. You are required to work your fucking ass off at this firm. We want winners here, not pikers. A piker walks at the bell. A Piker asks how much vacation time you get in the first year. Vacation time? People come to work at this firm for one reason, to become filthy rich, that's it. We're not here to make friends, we're not saving the fucking manatees here guys. You want vacation time, go teach third grade at a public school."

I win here, I win there...

8/19/11

Jane Street Capital perhaps?

Search on WSO, there should be some stuff on them

8/19/11
8/19/11
8/19/11
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