Lets talk about young people on this site
I wanted to write a post with regards to the younger people on this site- the kids in late high school and early college. On every forum when a high school senior asks for advice, or when a college freshman worries he doesn't have a finance internship lined up, I see 40 comments saying "get laid" or "you're too young to be worrying about this stuff," or "you should be chasing chicks with your buddies." To some extent I agree- HS-ers and young college students should be focusing on enjoying life before crippling 80 hour weeks, and from a career perspective, above all they should be trying to get into the best top 20 school they can.
But here's the rub: the idea that younger kids are incapable and DON'T have to worry is wrong. Go look at the top PE firms in the world, bulge brackets, the best RIAs, in every intern class you'll find at least 1/2 high schoolers and many freshman and sophomores. These kids are the standard (although they more or less all got their roles through connections). Moreover, in my experience they are adding value, and I'm not talking about getting coffee or running a copy machine. You'll see kids running cashflows and creating market summaries for potential opportunities. Young interns nowadays can recite the whole front page of Bloomberg and WSJ with fluency. I'd say nearly half of kids from top prep schools in the Northeast and California will have traded their first stock by the time they graduate high school. The idea that you can work at a ice-cream shop every summer till your junior summer and land at Goldman TMT is not true anymore unless (and Im sorry for saying this) you are a diversity candidate. Affluent kids will have internships that build upon each other every summer starting right after they graduate HS until they finally get THE internship junior year. (this is particularly true for kids with parents in finance)...
The competition is getting tighter and the process is starting earlier- so like it or not, kids are smart for getting a CFA before they start college- for being able to talk about the equity market with fluency. Go ahead and don't believe me- but you'll be a fool when you show up to your finance internship junior year and all you know about is Shakespeare, the social impact or fossil fuels, and can't tell me what a ratings agency is.
Young people- Dont let this site dissuade you from starting early. Enjoy your childhood? Absolutely, go party and make lifelong friends with some smart and promising people. But going over-prepared for even a freshman internship is a good thing so long as you are humble and not overly hardo.
just make sure your stats are good enough to get into a t30 and thats all you need to worry about
True, T20 doesn't actually mean top 20 schools on Forbes and niche- It's more like 25 nation-wide known schools that are sub 15% acceptance. Also there is a difference between a well ranked school and a school that places well. Towards the "bottom" of those ranking 25s are like NYU/Michigan, but for finance most would agree they place better than rankings t20s like WashU, USC, or Vanderbilt
Totally agree with this website. I go to a non-target school, but I completed an ER internship before my sophomore year started, and was supposed to complete an internship at an investment bank this summer before COVID happened. But because I started early, I was able to demonstrate a clear interest in my applications to get into clubs/programs on campus that were highly selective, and that continued till now that even though I don't have any internship for this summer, my other activities more than cover the weakness. I am a top candidate from my school and that wouldn't have been possible if not for the early start.
When you start early, it has a positive snowball effect in the future, and you get a serious step up over other candidates.
Would definitely recommend starting early to get a serious edge.
Terrible advise. Recipe for burnout. Focus on cultivating relationships and building a likable personality.
*advice
Please send all these kids to Stern and away from our schools though.
young people should be competitive, but doing internships in hs and figuring out which BB is “better” than another BB is frankly not adding much value, not in a smart way.
what’s more important for them is to understand how to socialize / make connections / read the room. they should try to figure out what kinds of people they want to interact with in college, what groups they want to put themselves in, etc.
being a “finance hardo” before even entering college for sure makes you technically sound, but you can just do that in college with a more targeted approach under proper guidance from your upperclassman friends, whom you need to get by being socially pleasant, (unless your goal is to go straight into an HF / some other finance roles that are much more technical than banking). the social skills required to get interviews / jobs / be liked in banking should be prioritized for them instead, not reading guides in hs senior year.
I'll do my best to not be dismissive since the OP posting anonymously as an intern (or at least is still in college/just graduated), or saying that kids are getting the CFA before they start college because they can't... I generally avoid those threads because I think that there is a need for work/life balance. When you're in High School and College, you really should be trying to enjoy life and make time for actually enjoying the experience. If you go to TSUN, UVA, UNC, or any other program with a great D1 team, I would hope that you spend your Saturdays in the fall watching every home game in person (or going to see every home game for your basketball team). If you go to NYU, UPenn, MIT, Harvard, Etc., I would hope that you take in the sights and culture of the city you're in. While I get the competitiveness of finance, there is nothing that replaces having a life, the ability to socialize, and be well rounded and able to connect with people. I don't care how good your technicals are, if I can't connect with you as a person, and you're going to be in a role with client-facing implications, then why would I want to hire you? Unless the purpose is to churn you and burn you to the point of exhaustion and force you to leave banking for good, I'm going to be dealing with you for as long as you're at my firm.I want to know that I can have a conversation with you about more than just finance. That's why a lot of users stress having a life, getting laid, etc. Having a life, having hobbies, and being well rounded is just as important as being able to do the work.
Now, I'm not discounting putting the time and effort in, but there is a time and place for everything. Nor am I saying that if you have an interest in finance, don't start learning about it and teaching yourself how it works. Those are important things to do in order to be competitive, but discounting having a life for the sake of getting a job in finance is a fools errand.
If you're a a student at my Alma Matter, reach out to me for a coffee chat or a networking call, and you can't discuss college football, basketball, or hockey, don't have a thought on the current state of Greek life, or an interest in being involved in philanthropy, I don't care how good you are as a candidate. If the only thing we have in common is Alma Matter, then I'm sure some other student with an interest or opinion on these things will reach out to me and stick out more in my mind than you do. It's not a pleasent thing to hear, but it's the truth. If I'm judging two candidates who both have the same resume experience, I want to pick someone I can relate to better, not someone who can ace his technicals but has no social skills. Networking is a two way street built on having commonality and rapport. Relationships are built on commonality and rapport. Relationships open doors. Being a strong candidate can help get you through them. But you can't just be a strong candidate if you dont' have the social skills to pair with the technical skills.
I'm as much of a critic of hardos as anyone, trust me. But I do find it frustrating that people on this website characterize being "sociable" as fitting a very narrow mold-- loves "college football, basketball, or hockey" and has a "thought on the current state of Greek life." Here, being sociable is somehow construed as being in a top tier house, which lets be honest, carries a further set of connotations that, quite frankly, aren't accessible to everybody (non-prep school kid / not-white kid).
Can we at least agree to not dichotomize kids between jocks in DKE and non-sociable hardos? I've met plenty of "cool / sociable" people in my life that don't fall under either of those characterizations. By the time I graduated college, I would see a lot of freshmen trying to fit your cool-kid mold, and they came off as posers more than anything.
I think you're missing the point. Being social isn't about being in a top tier house or loving sports, it's about being focused on more than a very narrow band of things in front of you. I mentioned 3 areas that I would hope someone from my Alma Matter can discuss - sports, greek life, and philanthropy - because they are a part of the culture at my school. I don't care if you have a cursory knowledge or are deeply involved. What I care about is that you did a little due diligence on my background, can have a discussion with me about one of these things, and show me that you can have a conversation. Show me that you can use something to create a connection. You belong to the same religious, social, or philanthropic organization as someone? Discuss that. Use that to create something you can both connect on. I used my alma mater as an example because I can explicitly discuss these things (and if you went to my Alma Matter, you should be able to discuss one of those three things in passing) since they create a few common touchpoints used to generate rapport. I don't care that you don't know shit about football, but if you're talking to me after a huge win or loss, I'd expect that you are at least aware of the results. If you tell me you're involved in Greek life, I expect you to be able to talk about the high level state of affairs. If you go to my school, I expect you to at least be aware of philanthropic efforts because it's part of the culture of the school. See where this is going? I want to work with someone I can relate to; even if you don't like sports, aren't involved in philanthropy, and have a disdain for greek life, not being able to have a cursory discussion about something the school is known for will give me pause. Using college football as an example, I don't care if you hate sports with a passion, but if you went to a D1 FBS school, you should at least have an opinion on Covid-19 and its impact on college sports. Show me that you can have a discussion about it. Show me that you can look at this not just as a sports question but as a finance and economics question too. Commonalities. Cultural touchpoints. Easy things to discuss. Make it easy for me to find reasons to want to help you besides "I want to work at XYZ Company. Can you help me since you're an Alum".
If I'm being asked for a coffee chat, I want to help people I can develop a connection with. Remember, I'm the guy helping you and want you to give me a reason to help besides the fact that you're interested in Finance or working for my company. I'm looking for reasons to take time out of my day to talk with you and come away from our conversation with the thought that "this kid's alright so let me see if I can help him." It's not about a dichotomy, but about developing a relationship. Show me that you can build a relationship.
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