London (Dutch) FT recruiting

Hi everyone!

Would very much appreciate insight on the 2021 London FT recruiting timeline and (if possible) if/how FT recruiting from Netherlands happens. Due to the fact that London has much stricter recruiting timelines and rules, I have the following questions:

  1. Will there, due to corona, even be a lot of FT recruiting happening this summer? If so, the timeline I found would be applications starting in August with offers given out around October. Is this correct?

  2. Answered & deleted for anonymity

  3. Is it possible to land a FT offer without LBT (for example, through the International Banking Cycle)?

  4. Disadvantage of being in a satellite office as opposed to London if end goal is to end up at (Healthcare) PE in Dutch office?
    More of a generic question but couldn't find a lot of information on this. Most advice is to always prefer London over a satellite office but these assume end-goal would always be London PE. Would the answer differ if it's regarding large Dutch PE offices?

Thanks in advance for your responses!

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Comments (9)

Most Helpful
  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2020 - 9:58am

1 - Nobody knows, but my best guess would be FT recruiting is going to be very limited. Not backed by actual data, but it seems logical that in case starting class sizes are reduced this affects FT recruiting most since converting SAs is easier than running a FT recruiting process. Timeline would indeed be applications open in August, with final offers given around Oct-early Dec depending on the bank.

2/3 - [Partly redacted for OPs anonymity] Interviews don't take place in August. As Dutch candidates at most BBs/EBs are pooled and interviewed together from LBT/IBC/Online Apps/Networking, they rather take place in the weeks following the LBT and IBC.

As you know, these events are the best way to land an IBD position as a Dutch speaking student. At most banks however these events are largely geared towards finding SAs, while not providing much acceleration in terms of FT recruiting. There are some direct full time hires, but there are also years where no one gets a full time position. Landing a FT position without attending either of these events is going to be even more of an uphill battle. Necessity of events is also heavily bank dependent, some banks like GS and RS seem to always have people in the (SA) process who don't participate in the LBT/IBC, while banks like BAML and JPM seem to only recruit from these events.

'Leveraging offers' sounds logical in terms of game theory, but in reality you probably only land a couple FT final interview stages if participating in LBT/IBC and if Corona doesn't decrease FT spots. If you don't participate in either, and headcount is reduced there will be little to lever and you should be gunning for a FT spot in your current team. Furthermore, all three BBs with a presence in Ams have some precedent of sending well performing interns to the LDN office but this will also be heavily affected by the no. of available spots.

Actual FT datapoints per bank (disclaimer: from Dutch student standpoint):

GS: Some precedent of FT positions, last year only FIG

MS: Only way to FT seems to be SA/Off-cycle

JPM: Claim to recruit FT, but spots are extremely limited/non-existent

RS: Only hire FT through 6-month off-cycles

Laz: Only hire FT through 3 month internships, LDN recruiting hard to access as Dutch student even when participating in LBT

BAML: Claim to recruit FT, but process is run seperately from the Dutch SA process

Citi: Have recruited FT in past years, but seems unlikely this year given auto SA offers.

Barc: Claim to recruit FT, perceivably extremely limited spots

DB: recruit FT

UBS: no idea

Nomura: recruit FT

RBC: don't recruit FT

4 - Disadvantage in my opinion is as a geographical coverage office you are both product (Capital Markets/M&A) and sector generalist. Beforehand, it is going to be hard to determine what you will actually be working on and therefore what you will learn, it could be FIG M&A or Industrials Levfin.

In terms of Dutch PE recruiting, at the largest international funds Ams offices (e.g. CVC, EQT, 3i) you largely see GS/MS/JPM and some other BB/EB. The large Dutch funds are largely populated by either BB/EB/MM or straight from uni into PE. This again varies a lot per fund, some Dutch funds have people from very diverse backgrounds e.g. PE, IB, VC, Consulting, start-ups.

You will get interviews for these from either LDN or satellite BB offices, but there are very few spots so it comes down to your performance during interviews and fit.

Ended up being quite the wall of text, info on Dutch IBD recruiting scene is hard to come by so hope it helps more people.

Apr 30, 2020 - 11:28am

Thank you for your extensive response, very helpful! Definitely very helpful considering the small amount of general Dutch recruiting information you mentioned.

I was already debating about how to anonymise my post but still being able to answer the questions I had. However, I think you're right in it being too much and I have deleted the relevant question. Would appreciate it if you could edit your post accordingly if possible. Thanks again!

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 30, 2020 - 2:13pm
Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen:

1 - Nobody knows, but my best guess would be FT recruiting is going to be very limited. Not backed by actual data, but it seems logical that in case starting class sizes are reduced this affects FT recruiting most since converting SAs is easier than running a FT recruiting process. Timeline would indeed be applications open in August, with final offers given around Oct-early Dec depending on the bank.

2/3 - [Partly redacted for OPs anonymity] Interviews don't take place in August. As Dutch candidates at most BBs/EBs are pooled and interviewed together from LBT/IBC/Online Apps/Networking, they rather take place in the weeks following the LBT and IBC.

As you know, these events are the best way to land an IBD position as a Dutch speaking student. At most banks however these events are largely geared towards finding SAs, while not providing much acceleration in terms of FT recruiting. There are some direct full time hires, but there are also years where no one gets a full time position. Landing a FT position without attending either of these events is going to be even more of an uphill battle. Necessity of events is also heavily bank dependent, some banks like GS and RS seem to always have people in the (SA) process who don't participate in the LBT/IBC, while banks like BAML and JPM seem to only recruit from these events.

'Leveraging offers' sounds logical in terms of game theory, but in reality you probably only land a couple FT final interview stages if participating in LBT/IBC and if Corona doesn't decrease FT spots. If you don't participate in either, and headcount is reduced there will be little to lever and you should be gunning for a FT spot in your current team. Furthermore, all three BBs with a presence in Ams have some precedent of sending well performing interns to the LDN office but this will also be heavily affected by the no. of available spots.

Actual FT datapoints per bank (disclaimer: from Dutch student standpoint):

GS: Some precedent of FT positions, last year only FIG

MS: Only way to FT seems to be SA/Off-cycle

JPM: Claim to recruit FT, but spots are extremely limited/non-existent

RS: Only hire FT through 6-month off-cycles

Laz: Only hire FT through 3 month internships, LDN recruiting hard to access as Dutch student even when participating in LBT

BAML: Claim to recruit FT, but process is run seperately from the Dutch SA process

Citi: Have recruited FT in past years, but seems unlikely this year given auto SA offers.

Barc: Claim to recruit FT, perceivably extremely limited spots

DB: recruit FT

UBS: no idea

Nomura: recruit FT

RBC: don't recruit FT

4 - Disadvantage in my opinion is as a geographical coverage office you are both product (Capital Markets/M&A) and sector generalist. Beforehand, it is going to be hard to determine what you will actually be working on and therefore what you will learn, it could be FIG M&A or Industrials Levfin.

In terms of Dutch PE recruiting, at the largest international funds Ams offices (e.g. CVC, EQT, 3i) you largely see GS/MS/JPM and some other BB/EB. The large Dutch funds are largely populated by either BB/EB/MM or straight from uni into PE. This again varies a lot per fund, some Dutch funds have people from very diverse backgrounds e.g. PE, IB, VC, Consulting, start-ups.

You will get interviews for these from either LDN or satellite BB offices, but there are very few spots so it comes down to your performance during interviews and fit.

Ended up being quite the wall of text, info on Dutch IBD recruiting scene is hard to come by so hope it helps more people.

As a fellow Dutchman, I find this very helpful. Thanks!
Are my chances as an MSc student lower compared to BSc students? (given that most banks give internship offer > finish studies > start FT after a year).

Also, do you perceive networking to be a big thing here as well? How would one go about that (besides attending LBT/IBC)? I've used LinkedIn for this in the past, and although it gets you connections and some conversations, it's ultimately difficult to convert this into something tangible (unlike in the USA).

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Edited: deleted a question that was already answered in your post.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2020 - 4:11pm

LBT/IBC participants are I would say 80/20 MSc/BSc. There are even people who already finished their studies participating. While BSc students are better positioned to follow the 'ideal path' of doing an SA after final year BSc and returning for FT after their 1-year MSc, very little Dutch students as they find out about IBD later generally.

So I would say there is an advantage to being a BSc (albeit with a solid profile e.g. already some relevant internship experience), however no disadvantage to being a MSc student, just be open to do an SA. Tell the banks you plan to postpone your MSc or do another one such that you are elligible for SA, then do whatever you want once you get the FT offer.

Networking is effective, but it only really converts into something tangible if you ever meet them in person through a coffee chat or event(my opinion, others' may vary). Coffee chats in LDN are quite hard to plan, however most Dutch senior bankers are in Ams quite often. Viable networking strategy therefore could be asking people with similar backgrounds how they got into their banks for example. If they then say LBT/IBC/something else, tell them you are planning to apply as well. These kind of connections can be useful to a) get selected for events (IBC requires cover letter for every event and LBT cover letter and interview) and b) be noticed during events/drinks afterwards.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 30, 2020 - 4:31pm
Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen:

LBT/IBC participants are I would say 80/20 MSc/BSc. There are even people who already finished their studies participating. While BSc students are better positioned to follow the 'ideal path' of doing an SA after final year BSc and returning for FT after their 1-year MSc, very little Dutch students as they find out about IBD later generally.

So I would say there is an advantage to being a BSc (albeit with a solid profile e.g. already some relevant internship experience), however no disadvantage to being a MSc student, just be open to do an SA. Tell the banks you plan to postpone your MSc or do another one such that you are elligible for SA, then do whatever you want once you get the FT offer.

Networking is effective, but it only really converts into something tangible if you ever meet them in person through a coffee chat or event(my opinion, others' may vary). Coffee chats in LDN are quite hard to plan, however most Dutch senior bankers are in Ams quite often. Viable networking strategy therefore could be asking people with similar backgrounds how they got into their banks for example. If they then say LBT/IBC/something else, tell them you are planning to apply as well. These kind of connections can be useful to a) get selected for events (IBC requires cover letter for every event and LBT cover letter and interview) and b) be noticed during events/drinks afterwards.

Thanks for the insights man.
Would you mind if I PM you with a few (more personal) questions?
Can totally understand if you're too busy though.

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