London Landscape

Hey guys,

Just wanted to start a discussion on the landscape in London given that it's 2018 and the affects of brexit are looming and the future is still uncertain.

I guess just really wondering what the overall atmosphere and landscape for investment banking is in London right now?

Secondly, how do the top investment banks in London rank? For the BBs it seems like the ranking is similar to that in the US with GS/MS/JPM being the top but how do the boutiques rank? How do Lazard / PJT / Evercore / Moelis / Centerview rank in London including the restructuring businesses for Lazard and PJT?

How much do London bankers make relative to the US and each other?

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Comments (230)

Mar 25, 2018 - 5:41pm

Interested as well. I have heard very different things regarding the BB vs Boutique in London. It seems though that most agree that if you get GS or MS in London you should take it.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:31am

London Bankers: Looking Forward to Move Out? (Originally Posted: 06/23/2017)

Hello monkeys,

With all the Brexit talks going on, how many of you have been confirmed to move out from London to other places in Europe like Frankfurt? Do you view this as a major hindrance, or are you ecstatic to finally move from London and experience a whole, different new city?

This article on Bloomberg mentions on how Morgan Stanley is very close to choosing Frankfurt for its new hub


Frankfurt, Germany's financial center, offers proximity to the European Central Bank, which supervises EU banks and sets monetary policy for countries that use the euro. The location also provides access to the EU's most populous country and its biggest economy.

Many big international banks already have a significant presence there, and several of them, including Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Nomura Holdings Inc., plan to expand in Frankfurt as a result of Brexit. Like Morgan Stanley, most banks are likely to opt for a model that spreads jobs across the single European market.

Are you guys looking forward to the move? I assume that cities around Europe would have a much lower living cost than London, and your paycheck wouldn't be cut, so this means more take-home cash for you... Would definitely look forward to this. Although, I'd probably keep in mind the cultural and language differences.. Lots of pros and cons.

Thoughts??

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Sep 6, 2018 - 5:33am

Lucky are the ones who end up in Dublin.

Cheer up, Bateman. What's the matter? No shiatsu this morning?
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Sep 6, 2018 - 5:41am

I am not in IB and may never break into the field but I am a American citizen and Brexit has multiplied the uncertainty of my future. The now relatively straightforward London recruitment scene has devolved into...

  • Will there be IB jobs in London left in three years?
  • Can I apply for US IB jobs while in London?
  • If there aren't, should I be transferring after two to an equivalent school back in the U.S like Dartmouth/Brown?
  • Would I be eligble for IB jobs in Frankfurt/Paris if I can't speak German/French (highly unlikely)?
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Sep 6, 2018 - 5:39am

Ofc you can apply to US, I know several europeans who had interviews in NYC for SA positions, and several european VPs whom I met started out in US. But getting in Paris/Frankfurt office without local language is highly unlikely at the moment

May 22, 2018 - 8:26am

For one London bankers are paid 20ish% less compared to US and in APAC. Base is 50k GBP as an Analyst 1. Not sure if that is because they don't adjust the pay when the GBP dropped like how some law firms did post-Brexit.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:42am

View from London (Originally Posted: 12/28/2013)

Their is so much information on networking and Investment banking in the States but their is not much regarding the whole process for London.
Does networking trump everything else in London like in the States because I personally do not think it does but would love some insight.
Is less time spent on your high school grades?
Do the recruiters look for different things in a person or view the application in a different light?
Would love some insight.
Thanks

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:43am

I'm an American going for some London jobs, so this is based on my (limited) experience alone.

It seems like networking is more expected there to get a first round (several firms even have a separate form for you to fill out to show that you know someone; I've seen it a bit for American recruiting, but not as much as in London). Of course, this is true in the US to a certain extent, but I've also known a few people to get SA positions solely from the Internet blackhole. In London, it seemed like more of an unspoken requirement, based on what my friends there told me.

Recruiters also seem to look for you to flesh out specific characteristics; hence, essays on 'tell me about a time you showed leadership' and the like are more common in place of a generic cover letter, and problem-solving tests are also given at some firms (like CS).

I haven't heard of recruiters focusing too much on high school grades, in either the US or London, though others are free to chime in with the opposite view.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:44am

sorry just to clarify from your second paragraph, you mean networking is more important in London?
On my personal note, I think networking is less important in London but would love more input

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:47am

If you are at a target uni, networking is not essential. Majority of full time analysts come from the internship; majority of interns come from online applications. Clearly it helps to go to the banks presentations at your uni to a) understand the job, b) meet people, c) have a credible answer to the question 'why X firm.' But most full time and intern hires are via a very structured non- networking route.

Clearly networking does not hurt (and May be important from non-targets or if coming from outside Europe; I wouldn't know) but it's not the most common route.

High school grades are situation dependent. If you got into a target uni, I doubt your HS grades are that relevant. Being a cool person who they like, and knowing the technicals, is more important. If you are coming from non-trad background then HS may be more relevant, esp if you have great IB scores, but honestly I doubt they care that much, so hard to compare across regios unless you did IB.

The key difference from the US is that since Europeans are more likely to have masters degrees and significant finance experience, the overall entry level competition is very high. You will often get summer analysts who are 24yrs old with a masters and 2 prior serious internships. I doubt you get that in the US.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:50am

Oh come on this is just basic. And this sort of question on WSO makes me sad.

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
Sep 6, 2018 - 5:52am

Usually undergrad is three years, so many decide to do a masters. You can do a one-year masters in UK for example, so in total you've studied four years, like an undergrad in US. Also, there is no on-campus recruiting per se, like in the US, so a lot of students realize late that they want to do IB and doing a masters gives them an opportunity to get it while still in school.
Also, I've heard some BBs offering early start, so after SA you might be offered full-time before next year, which might be convenient.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:53am

@£IB£
I don't understand your 'not uncommon' point. That's the opposite of what I said.

3 reasons for continental Europeans (not UK ppl) being more likely to have a masters and work experience
- in continental Europe, it is the norm for 'educated' ppl in 'good' jobs to have at least a masters and sometimes a phd. You aren't taken seriously otherwise.
- many European educational programs include anywhere from 6 mths to a year of mandatory work experience. Especially in finance degrees.
- Europe does not have the US/UK phenomenon where liberal arts students or scientists end up in banking. These guys are business / finance / accounting undergrads, and the same for masters. Therefore more likely to do internships earlier and throughout (higher emphasis on vocation specific education.)

In the UK you also have a good number of bankers with masters. However this is more usually because uk undergrad degrees are 3 yrs and many ppl either want to stay at uni another yr, or don't yet know what they want to do job wise after the undergrad. Also, many STEM undergrads at top unis encourage students to do a one yr masters after a 3 yet undergrad, as the 'natural' degree progression.

Note that 'continental Europe' and 'U.K.' Above refer to location of education, not location of job. I am talking about London jobs exclusively.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:56am

Exactly on point.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:54am

Coming back to the networking aspect of recruiting, I'd say that both in the UK and continental Europe, networking will help you with getting that first round interview. Nonetheless networking won't help you in covering up for low grades. Once you made contact, usually you'll have to initiate the formal recruiting process online (assuming this is for SA or 1st year positions) and let your contact know once they submitted. Now your contact will probably call HR and let them know to take a look at your application. This ensures that at least you're not dropped immediately by the system for whatever reason. If it comes to an in-person meeting, your contact might put in a good word with the interviewers but everything else is up to you then.

Now I can't tell you whether networking is more important in the US since I lack experience there but I can tell you that also in Europe this is very common. For non-target students it definitely helps (your school might not be in the automatic recruiting pool).

Now slightly offtopic on the Master's degrees: some educational systems in continential Europe only aligned with the Bachelor/Master type of studies a few years ago. In the German speaking system 5 year degrees where the norm before so that 3-year Master programs were just laughed at by professionals and HR people alike.

Sep 6, 2018 - 5:55am

EuroLocust:

Not wholly correct. Just because this may not be your experience or interpretation doesn't make it gospel.

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
Sep 6, 2018 - 5:57am

EuroLocust:

Now slightly offtopic on the Master's degrees: some educational systems in continential Europe only aligned with the Bachelor/Master type of studies a few years ago. In the German speaking system 5 year degrees where the norm before so that 3-year Master programs were just laughed at by professionals and HR people alike.

That's the reason for most German speakers to have a Master's degree. However, this has changed quite a bit in the past 2-3 years.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:01am

From my experience (experienced hire rather than grad programme) networking is pretty useless in London. In some cases it may even come across as weird. It is just not the done thing or part of the culture.

Now don't get me wrong, if you know somebody in a firm or a family member knows somebody thats a definite plus but as far as the whole cold emailing, fellow alumni thing goes it is not a part of it.

For grad recruitment you apply via online application. In my experience this is a very standardised process. Anybody can apply, if they want to interview you they will. It would be seriously lucky and you would need to be seriously impressive for you to cold contact an MD and have him somehow fast track your application.

For experienced hires head hunters control the game. Just look on efinciancialcareers. There are tons of jobs. You just get in contact with a recruiter and if you have a chance they will start firing out emails for you.

The thing with London is it is much more open to diverse backgrounds. US seems very set path i.e. target school -> two year analyst -> MBA ->PE. In london there is much more variability in backgrounds and much less emphasis on MBA's.

My experience of it anyway.

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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:02am

Maherj1:

From my experience (experienced hire rather than grad programme) networking is pretty useless in London. In some cases it may even come across as weird. It is just not the done thing or part of the culture.

Now don't get me wrong, if you know somebody in a firm or a family member knows somebody thats a definite plus but as far as the whole cold emailing, fellow alumni thing goes it is not a part of it.

For grad recruitment you apply via online application. In my experience this is a very standardised process. Anybody can apply, if they want to interview you they will. It would be seriously lucky and you would need to be seriously impressive for you to cold contact an MD and have him somehow fast track your application.

For experienced hires head hunters control the game. Just look on efinciancialcareers. There are tons of jobs. You just get in contact with a recruiter and if you have a chance they will start firing out emails for you.

The thing with London is it is much more open to diverse backgrounds. US seems very set path i.e. target school -> two year analyst -> MBA ->PE. In london there is much more variability in backgrounds and much less emphasis on MBA's.

My experience of it anyway.

Do not go on efin, it's a shit show. Also, experienced hire networking does work. This guy seems to have been very vanilla in his approach to getting a job.

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:03am

I don't necessarily agree. What you can't forget is that a lot of the guys who are in IBD or PE in London are actually from the US or went to university in the US. Ergo, these guys are very open to network in general. Same goes for people who went for rotations in the US or Asia.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:04am

London ibd (Originally Posted: 02/22/2018)

Sorry cos havent been able to find a lot of information on this.

Long time lurker, was wondering if anyone would have an idea as to how hsbc london such as m&a execution is seen as compared with a mid-to-low london BB ibd coverage group? Or just how it is seen in general as compared with other banks and groups in london.

Thanks in advance!

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:05am

keithj437437, sorry about the lack of response. Maybe one of these topics will help:

  • Why is the Investment Banking division important for the bank? Hi guys, I know what investment banking is about, but how would you explain the importance this ... division has for the bank? Why is it so important? I know it isn't only because of profits, but what ... else? This was a Goldman Sachs ' interview question for the summer analyst position in London. to ...
  • IBD = Investment Banking Division " IBD " stands for "Investment Banking Division". As in- the division of a bank that ... investment banking division) a 100hr/week job?" you sound like a high school kid throwing out acronyms ... performs investment banking activities. This includes things like M&A, capital raisin
  • Best IB divisions at Barclays, London banking division Bulge Bracket bb culture Barclays London Groups banking in london ... Hi everyone! I'm an incoming IBD summer analyst at Barclays in London and wanted to ask which ... divisions within Barclays are the best to work for, in terms of culture and number of deals with regards to ...
  • Investment Banking Layoffs 2013 (London) What's the current scoop around the investment banks (bulge brackets) in London? Anyone heard ... referring to specifically the IBD division of the banks. ...
  • Dating girl in same bank & floor, diff team/division/forums/investment-banking-interview-questions-a-comprehensive-guide">Investment Banking Interview ...
  • Investment banking in London / Europe is a complete waste of time so crap honestly. I left my MM bank in London after completing two full years in M&A, with closed ... deals under my belt, expecting to find something decent outside banking. A couple of months later? ... Nothing. I have nothing. My only real option is to go back and do M&A at another bank, which I really ...
  • Private Equity Pay vs. Investment Banking Salary Banking. I was looking at the 2016 employment report from London Business School. Looking at the mean ... private equity compensation is higher than investment banking. In many cases, working in PE at the ... received at an investment bank. User @Draper_LDN shared more on this in a detailed post below. User ...
  • Morgan Stanley IBD- London internship position shortly. Thanks. Investment Banking Morgan Stanley ... Hi, can I ask you whether you know something in particular about this office/division? I know, ...
  • More suggestions...

If we're lucky, the following users may have something to say: @Alex-Wise" @Jaemun-Park" FinanceGuy15

If those topics were completely useless, don't blame me, blame my programmers...

Controversial
May 24, 2018 - 8:34am

What are we ranking? M&A? Banks as a whole?

If the former prob something along the lines of (very general, obviously group dependent):

BB Tier 1: GS, JPM, MS
EB Tier 1: Centerview, lazard, rothschild, evercore

BB Tier 2: Citi, BAML, CS, DB
EB Tier 2: PWP, GHL, Moelis, PJT, Jefferies, MACQ

BB Tier 3: Nomura, UBS, BARCCAP, HSBC, RBC, SocGen etc

If we're talking trading then its very different

Don't believe all the "woe is me types", nobody is going to close down shop and move everyone to Amsterdam or Dublin (least of all Paris)

I agree with the above poster about the difference in salaries probably being due to not re-balancing after Brexit vote, which is quite stupid really

Dont think the above ranking will change much

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:06am

Getting a job in London (Originally Posted: 11/25/2016)

Hello,

I have always always read WSO forums for valuable information for the last five years and I am posting on here hoping for some valuable advice regarding obtaining an entry level finance position in London.

About me: I just graduated in May from Boston College undergraduate business school with a degree in finance (3.4 GPA) and completed two summer internships. One as a trading assistant at a well known mutual fund in Boston, and the other working on an FX trading desk in NYC at a second-tier, well known investment bank. I am interested in obtaining a front office or analyst position at a hedge fund, private equity, investment bank, mutual fund, or any type of Asset Management firm in London. I have been aggressive applying for positions in London since April, when I granted citizenship to a neighboring EU country. So I am currently living in MA, but I am eligible to work in the UK without any restrictions.

I have tried everything I can think of over the last eight months: I've tried every career website like Linkeidn, Indeed, Monster, efinanicalcareers. I've tried staffing and recruiting agencies in the area. I found a list of all UK companies that has granted sponsorship, like I said earlier I don't need sponsorship but the list was about 12,000 companies, out of that list I found about 400 that were financial firms. After no luck for about four months, I lowered by standards and tried to apply to MO positions, still no luck. Over the last 8 months, I've probably filled out over 100 applications, and only got ONE HR screen, who just wanted to verify some information and I never heard back. I am starting to really get discouraged.

Questions:

What advice would you give me?

Any success stories that I can learn from?

When I go on Linkedin I NEVER see profile of people who have completed a degree in the US and have obtained an entry level position in an EU country; Is this because I am pretty much the only one who has interest in doing such, or that these companies have no interest in foreigners?

I have three siblings who currently live in London, should I put their address on my resume? Maybe firms are reluctant because I currently have an MA address on my resume?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

May 24, 2018 - 9:14am

Don't agree with this for M&A. Places like RBC, Nomura, HSBC, SocGen are not BBs status. Jefferies and Macquarie are solidly MM banks.

Using your general layout, I would say it's more like the following:

BB Tier 1: GS, MS, JPM
EB Tier 1: Lazard, Rothschild, Centerview, Evercore, PJT

BB Tier 2: BAML, Citi, CS
EB Tier 2: Moelis, PWP, GHL

BB Tier 3: UBS, DB, Barclays

May 24, 2018 - 11:22am

Personally i never understood the point of the term "Middle Market". I absolutely agree that the above banks you mentioned do not have the same deal flow as the others but they absolutely are BBs. They are global, conglomerate banks, how else would you describe them? On jefferies and MACQ again, what is an MM bank? "Bigger than EB but not like a BB"? pretty stupid comparison don't you think? especially given if that was the case you'da ssume them to be closer to the BBs in terms of operations than the boutiques which simply isn't true. If you have more insight on this i'd be glad to hear it but i think the way I laid it out is a fair comparison in terms of prestige/dealflow/ organization structure etc

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:07am

Tbh, I don't have any advice to you, BUT it has been done before. There are many people currently working in London who graduated from US institutions. Maybe you haven't searched hard enough. I'm sure they exist because one of my friends is your case. Houlihan Lokey also hired a guy from UPenn Wharton into their London RX team.

Problem maybe because you applied to too many firms. Takes time to craft a good application. A scatter gun approach might do more harm than good. Hiring has been difficult too so take that into account. Good luck!

May 24, 2018 - 12:30pm

What makes you put Moelis and PJT in tier 2 (I ask because in the U.S. they are both Tier 1). Also, if you include the restructuring practice for Moelis and PJT how does that rank vs the others? Lastly, might be a bit silly, but by putting BB tier 1 over EB tier 1 are you saying that it's better to take tier 1 BBs over tier 1 EBs?

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:08am

Definitely put your siblings addresses on the resume.

**How is my grammar? Drop me a note with any errors you see!**
May 25, 2018 - 4:33am

Imo, Citi and (especially) BAML are much stronger than Cs/DB/ bar in Europe - also, where is Robey Warshaw?
I would say

BB1: GS, MS, JPM
BB1.5: Citi, BAML
BB2: CS/DB/Bar

EB1: Evr/Laz/RW/PJT/cntw
EB2: RTH/Jeff/PWP/Moelis

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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:09am

Should I head to London? (Originally Posted: 06/28/2017)

I'm a penultimate year finance student at a respectable but non Russel group university. I have no professional finance related work experience and I manage a modest (£000s) student (£cash) portfolio.

My dilemma, I was unsucesful in securing a summer internship in Asset Management through formal/informal channels (Though I have secured an insight day at a firm that offers a range of financial services). My financial position at the time did not allow for me to apply for unpaid positions, however I've had a stroke of fortune.

My friends aunt passed away and his family are letting us stay in her house next semester, I will be paying half the amount of rent over the next 12 months due to the generosity of his family.

Therefore I'll be able to work 1-2 months unpaid. However I left London to live In a trailer park by the beach (lots of well paid seasonal work). I don't know whether to ditch my job on the beach and head back to London (I think I should give a weeks notice out of respect) or if I should stick with my summer job and only return for the insight day as it's already well into summer.

If I went back I'd be prospecting firms with cold calls and cold walk ins. As mentioned I was previously targeting asset managers however i would be utterly encapsulated by any experience pertaining to buy side,sell side, PWM or corporate finance (business analyst).

Would you recommend I ditch my beach job that offers me a steady wage and an enjoyable lifestyle in order to hit the pavement to persue a (small) possibility of finding unpaid work experience that is congruent with my aspirations?

Thanks for your time.

May 27, 2018 - 6:05pm

Don't know where all this MS is coming from, your BB ranking is much more in-line with reality than the ones putting Citi/BAML on same tier as CS/DB/BAR. Just look at YTD M&A fee league tables - The three euro banks have yet to crack $100bn deal value, yet this year's "worst" of the 5 American BBs (BAML) are already at $175bn...

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:10am

At this stage I think you're very unlikely to find any internship in London, even unpaid.

In you're position I'd stick to the job you have now and simply cold call from where you are, then if you get an offer go to London. But as I said, I would be amazed if you found something this late.

PS. I understand what you're getting at but it's a bit cold to say your friend's aunt passing away is a stroke of fortune, you could phrase it better.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:11am

What Is the Future for London Banking? (Originally Posted: 08/02/2018)

I just read an article by CNN about Deutsche Bank moving its euro clearing activity from its London office to Frankfurt.

Germany's largest lender confirmed Monday that it has moved "a large part" of its euro clearing activity from London to Frankfurt. The bank declined to specify how much of the activity had moved, but it said a majority would eventually take place in Frankfurt.

I am looking at doing a banking internship in London, but now I am not so sure. What does everyone think?
1. Do you see more banks following suit?
2. Is London's banking future in trouble?

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May 27, 2018 - 7:41pm

You are clearly a troll. Rothschild and Lazard are known to be two of the most elite independent advisory firms in Europe, regularly being mandated on prestigious deals and producing exits into the likes of Advent, CVC, Lone Star. PWP is solid as well, but Rothschild and Lazard are by no means second tier

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May 27, 2018 - 8:30pm

Interesting that you respond that harsh. Iam obviously not a troll and curious about the different view of RS and Lazard. Maybe it depends on nationality but at my top tier target university nearly noone chose RS/Lazard, even with offer they picked PWP/CV/PJT/Moelis (or Bulge Brackets) (was 1-2 years ago).

May 28, 2018 - 3:35pm

Laz gets high profile mandates (and I am not speaking only about deal size) both in London and its regional offices, Rth gets some high mandates and a lot of very-low profile mandates, especially in its regional offices

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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:12am

Hey UMstudent, I'm the WSO Monkey Bot and I am sad to say, but this thread is lonely, so thought I'd post in here to try and help out. Some potential topics that might help:

  • Offers Credit Suisse (FFM) vs Rothschild (FFM) vs Perella Weinberg Partners (LND) vs Macquarie (LND) vs BoAML (LND) (LND), BoAML (LND) All offers are for M&A or generalist at the BB. Which one would you choose? What ... Fortunately, I was able to receive offers from the following banks for their summer analyst ... are your thoughts about Perella Weinberg Partners in London? Which one will pay the most at Analyst ...
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  • S&T Industry Future Outlook in a few months. The associates that I am interning with state there is a significant reduction in ... s&t volume in equities and that the future of the industry is at stake (due to easy/cheap liquidity ... equities floor. I love the feel of the business and the work but have reservations about the
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  • More suggestions...

Who will rescue this thread? mstack87 @Sean.frazer" jeffdorr

If those topics were completely useless, don't blame me, blame my programmers...

May 30, 2018 - 4:38am

I think that for BBs it's quite similar to the US, GS/MS/JPM are in the top (analysts being top targets for MFs).

Regarding EBs, Lazard/Centerview/Evercore/Moelis/Rothschild are considered Tier 1 for HHs.

Boutiques would be Jefferies/Macquarie/PJT in London

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:15am

Recruiting doesn't start until September and that's when the online applications open. Firms are all over LSE and your app will go into the "read me" section because there's an autofilter for LSE. Don't worry about it yet.

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Sep 6, 2018 - 6:17am

Well I am a bit ashamed of it, I got a 660 :(
I have many other things going on for me thankfully. And word of advice: DO start studying for your GMAT early, don't wait for the last month.

I stressed out during the math part, and since I thought I had completely bombed the math I was really relaxed for the verbal section, thus I scored really high on the verbal compared to the math section :-p

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:19am
siongkoonlsk:
Is University of York in the UK a target university for BB?

Do you know anyone from this particular Uni working in your firm?

Sorry mate but, York is not a target. Oxford / Cambridge / LSE / Edinburgh / Durham are it here.

"Living the dream 24/7 at http://theallnighter.blogspot.com"

____________________________________________________________ "LIVING THE DREAM 24/7 ON http://THEALLNIGHTER.BLOGSPOT.COM" ____________________________________________________________
Sep 6, 2018 - 6:25am
newbie2banking:
York is not a 'target' but is perfectly respectable

Respetable? For what??

On a serious note though, havent come accross anyone from York on the floor...

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:22am

They have a post about it in the student room. I'll copy paste the ranking they got there: (note this ranking is HEAVILY debated on the student room) I posted the link to the thread at the end of this post.

01 LSE
02 Oxford, Cambridge
[small gap]
04 Imperial
[big gap]
05 Warwick
06 UCL
[huge, huge gap]
07 KCL
08 Bristol
09 Nottingham
(An MSc from CASS after an OK undergrad
and you're about on par with 07-09)
[gap]
10 Bath
11 Loughborough
12 York
13 St Andrews
14 Edinburgh
15 Durham
[gap]
16 Reading (ISMA)
17 Manchester
18 Royal Holloway
19 City (undergrad degrees)
20 Birmingham

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=351393&

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:24am

[quote=Disjoint]They have a post about it in the student room. I'll copy paste the ranking they got there: (note this ranking is HEAVILY debated on the student room) I posted the link to the thread at the end of this post.

01 LSE
02 Oxford, Cambridge
[small gap]
04 Imperial
[big gap]
05 Warwick
06 UCL
[huge, huge gap]
07 KCL
08 Bristol
09 Nottingham
(An MSc from CASS after an OK undergrad
and you're about on par with 07-09)
[gap]
10 Bath
11 Loughborough
12 York
13 St Andrews
14 Edinburgh
15 Durham
[gap]
16 Reading (ISMA)
17 Manchester
18 Royal Holloway
19 City (undergrad degrees)
20 Birmingham

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=351393&[/quote]

Disagree with KCL being so high.. agree with all rest including that Cass comment...

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:23am

anyway, thanks for all the info, I'll have to fight my way in then.

Besides using the SEO program, are there any special ways to gain access to an internship if I have no contact and network at all.(I'm currently in M'sia, will be a first year student in York this September)

From the posts here and in theallnighter.blogspot.com,
I see that applying online don't give you any big chances if you are not from a target school.(Not to mention there are no campus visits).

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:26am

Similar question here.
I'm doing junior year abroad at LSE next year. How hard is it to land an summer internship in London for someone from a LAC in the US? I did some search and found a couple alumni in the industry in London, but does it help to have some contact at all in the UK recruiting process?

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:29am

Well obviously "knowing" people certainly cannot hurt you in the UK recruiting process. I actually had a couple of friends who went to LSE for their junior year who came from some LACs in US (and not from some "target" LACs either i.e. williams, amherst, swarthmore, colby, etc.) and got SA positions in London and NY.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:31am

A lot of people come to LSE to help for IB recruiting. I don't know if it helps in the US, but if you apply for an SA position in London, it definitely will.

May 28, 2018 - 1:03pm

It's quite confusing to me to see so many people listing Macquarie and Jefferies as elite boutiques. When you consider Jefferies, they're without a doubt a MM bank even in their home market in the US. How is it possible that they're an elite boutique in the European market?

Would appreciate someone's insights to see if I miss anything.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:33am

Is London the same? (Originally Posted: 06/16/2013)

Hey guys,

I have been doing a bit of reading of the site, and have seen a lot of talk about "exit opps." It seems that a lot of you guys move into PE/HF after your analyst stint in IB. Is this the same in the UK? Is the analyst system different here? Do more people stay on in IB? I only ask, because it seems to me that HFs in London are very much 'old school tie'/ex-Oxbridge people, so I was wondering if the 'system' was different.

Also what is the system with Masters' over here? Do people do Mfin/Msc instead of, or as well as an MBA?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:35am

MBA not really important, exit ops nowhere near as stressed and more people stay on, but there are still a ton of funds which will hire analysts. Masters are sometimes done but again, not that important. There are a TON of Europeans, as in it is quite likely that if you are native British you will be in the minority.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:36am

Exit to PE is fairly common after 2 or 3 years. HF as well, although perhaps not as frequent, typically a lot of competition of ER and PE.

Analyst system is 3 years, with (almost) automatic promotion to associate at most BBs. More people stay on vs. US; some associates are hired out of MBA, but less common vs. US.

I wouldn't say that HFs in London are very public school / Oxbridge dominated. No doubt they exist, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Mainly because Europeans vastly outnumber Brits in most branches of finance in London (apart from a few e.g. corporate broking). There a large number of Americans and Canadians in London as well, especially since quite a few HF offices in London are HQ'ed in US.

Masters - almost all IB analysts from Europe have Masters degrees. More IB analysts from UK universities come in from Masters programs these days (mainly because competition has become tougher / they were unable to break in out of undergrad). Traditional route for people from UK universities was 2nd year uni -> summer internship -> 3rd year uni -> FT IB analyst, but this has become more difficult.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:37am

Asatar:

MBA not really important, exit ops nowhere near as stressed and more people stay on, but there are still a ton of funds which will hire analysts. Masters are sometimes done but again, not that important. There are a TON of Europeans, as in it is quite likely that if you are native British you will be in the minority.

great help. thank you. is it possible to get into PE/HF straight from University? how do you go about doing this?

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:38am

thewaterpiper:

Exit to PE is fairly common after 2 or 3 years. HF as well, although perhaps not as frequent, typically a lot of competition of ER and PE.

Analyst system is 3 years, with (almost) automatic promotion to associate at most BBs. More people stay on vs. US; some associates are hired out of MBA, but less common vs. US.

I wouldn't say that HFs in London are very public school / Oxbridge dominated. No doubt they exist, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Mainly because Europeans vastly outnumber Brits in most branches of finance in London (apart from a few e.g. corporate broking). There a large number of Americans and Canadians in London as well, especially since quite a few HF offices in London are HQ'ed in US.

Masters - almost all IB analysts from Europe have Masters degrees. More IB analysts from UK universities come in from Masters programs these days (mainly because competition has become tougher / they were unable to break in out of undergrad). Traditional route for people from UK universities was 2nd year uni -> summer internship -> 3rd year uni -> FT IB analyst, but this has become more difficult.

thanks for that. so would a masters only be recommended if you fail to get a job after undergrad?

is it possible to get into HF/PE straight from university? is there a traditional route for doing this?

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:40am

From a career point of view, yes, doing a masters is recommended to fill the CV gap and let you have another go at graduate recruitment.

HF/PE straight from university in the UK is quite rare, and I don't think there is any 'traditional' route at all.

The vast majority of associate positions at megafund PEs will be filled by IBD. I don't know if smaller shops take grads - the megafunds have little use for them, since they outsource all the grunt work to investment bankers.

For HFs, depends on strategy. I daresay you could get into a macro / quant fund if you're doing something like straight maths at Oxbridge and top of your class. For any decent L/S equity, distressed, or merger arb shop, you will need experience.

May 28, 2018 - 2:01pm

BB:
Tier 1a: GS/MS
Tier 1b: JPM
Tier 2: BAML/Citi
Tier 3a: Barclays
Tier 3b: UBS/DB (stay away if you can)

For EBs, I would say Lazard and Centerview as Tier 1, maybe Evercore as well. While Roth tend to do well from a league table perspective in EMEA, they are different in that they would usually take backseat roles / do random FOs etc. and get full league table credit for that. Average fees per deal is much lower versus peers and rarely would they be the #1 advisor on a complex deal, so I would not put them in the Tier 1 bucket. I'm sure they place OK though.

Moelis/Greenhill/PJT/PWP are all good shops but deal flow in EMEA is not great - I would not go to any of these places over a BB apart from UBS/DB and maybe Barclays for that reason. Macquarie and Jeffries rarely compete for the same deals as indicated above.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:41am

London IB Recruitment (Originally Posted: 03/29/2018)

Hi,

Im a senior year student at non-target school in CEE, finished internship in corporate banking at major European bank, then moved to regional m&a boutique. Now its my 6th month here. Im quite sure i will receive a FT offer but I want to move to BB in London.

I will go for a masters degree at London Business School but with a gap year (starting in '19). I need your advice regarding opps - is it better to accept ft offer and then apply for a SA at bb (12 months in m&a boutique in the moment of application) for summer '19 or maybe do another LT internship at big4(m&a or valuation) and then apply for SA (also for summer '19)?

Thanks in advance.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:42am

ag_cor3l, shame nobody has responded. Maybe one of these topics will help:

If we're lucky, the following pros may have something to say: tsedevsuren lou @Sameer-Babar"

I hope those threads give you a bit more insight.

May 28, 2018 - 2:27pm

And while the dealflow comment is actually right ( the dealflow in EMEA at those US boutiques is nowhere near the dealflow in the US), it has to do with the size of the office too. All of these boutiques, except Laz and Roths have much smaller teams. If you adjust dealflow for headcount then the results are very similar to those of BBs/Laz/Roths.

May 28, 2018 - 8:58pm

I would have to disagree with your point.

1) FOs only give league table credit for the # of deals, not the deal value, so if Rothschild were to be mandated as a FO advisor, the metric for average deal value would actually look worse
2) Average fees per deal is much lower vs peers because of the reason mentioned above and the fact that Rothschild has a larger focus on the MM space vs its peers (Lazard/Evercore/Moelis). That's not to say they are never on large, complex deals, they are increasingly being mandated on larger more prestigious deals with success depending on the region you are looking at
3) Whenever they advise on a large deal, they are usually the lead advisor. E.g. Sainsbury's Asda, Essilor Luxottica, Unibail-Rodamco Westfield to name a few
4) PJT has one of the best restructuring practices on the street and a brand that comes with the Blackstone legacy. If you receive an offer from PJT vs a BB that is not GS/MS/JP, the decision would not be as black and white as you stated

May 29, 2018 - 8:03am

I have a roommate who works at Evercore / PJT / Centerview / Moelis type of place. The comment about deal flow is very misleading. Their entire London office is smaller than a single BB team. Their yearly analyst intake is again smaller than the intake of a single team at a BB (i.e. GS, JPM, MS, CS, BAML takes in more analysts into each team). Some have no regional office presence so effectively the London team handles everything outside of the Americas. So if you compare the firm's deal flow, compare it to that of whatever top tier team you can think of.

On top of that, they're guaranteed to do only M&A and restructuring. No bs IPOs, secondary equity offerings that pop up every so often in an industry coverage. I interned at JPM TMT for a summer. 40% of deal flow pertains to capital markets, 40% M&A, and roughly 20% doing the absolutely mindless corporate broking stuffs.

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:43am

London 2010 (Originally Posted: 11/03/2009)

I just found out that I'm going to be starting in London for next year (from US) and was wondering who else is headed there. Feel free to PM if you'd prefer.

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:45am

It was the division head's choice (in S&T) and he is in London, I mentioned I was open to either NY or London. Though HR expected I'd end up in NY that's not the way it ended up. So I've never been to London before but will start working there for 2010 and wanted to see if anyone else was, I personally don't know many people in London.

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

  • 1
Sep 6, 2018 - 6:46am

I live (and study) in London and will also be starting there in 2010. Will you be in Canary Wharf or the City?

__________ Just my 2c.
Sep 6, 2018 - 6:47am

Canary Wharf, shoot me a PM

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:48am

Bump, any other London Analysts?

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:49am

Just got back from London. I commuted out to Canary Wharf for a while and it sucked. It takes forever to get there depending on where you live. Otherwise, it is a great city and you will enjoy yourself. It is a bit pricey though especially for a freshly minted analyst. Are they helping you with living expenses or are they helping with housing at all?

Sep 6, 2018 - 6:51am

By the way, if anyone is potentially interested in sharing housing, PM me and we can talk.

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:00am
Cabol:
And btw what average rent price can I expect (assuming it's near the City)? 1-1,5k per month? I'm completely clueless here.
I assume that when you say 'near' you mean within walking (or at most one/two stops away). I don't think there can be a generalisation because it depends on what area you are talking about. But as a very very rough rule of thumb, if you don't spend any time looking for bargains (i.e. leave it to an agent to find it for you), then yeah, £1-1.5/month is about right. For that you could get a good flat in a shitty area (Bermondsey, Mile End) or a shitty flat in a good area (Bloomsbury, Shoreditch).

Here is one of the (better)n agents
http://www.foxtons.co.uk/search?search_type=LL

__________ Just my 2c.
  • 1
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:01am

You usually pay rent on a weekly basis. I would say the cheapest you could find within reasonable distance (I consider a 20 minute tube ride reasonable) is 200-250 pounds a week. So this is close to $340-$425 per week for a studio. You can find cheaper, but it really depends on where you are willing to live and in what conditions you are willing to live in.

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:07am

CS is 45k/5.75k S&T

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard.
-30 Rock

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:10am
DevelopmentMonkey:
Hmm, I wonder how the pound is going to do over the next year - 1.5 USD per GBP isn't the best of times for Londoners.

Yup, it really sucks. I don't see GBP strengthening any time soon. It will probably never go back up to that 2:1 level ever again...just my opinion. I would be happy to see GBP/USD 1.70

-------------------------------------------------- "Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do NOT do that thing." -Dwight Schrute, "The Office"-
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:12am

In GBP:
Before-tax income: 45,000
Income tax: (7,930)
National Insurance: (4,321)
After-tax income: 32,749

Legitimate calculation.

-------------------------------------------------- "Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do NOT do that thing." -Dwight Schrute, "The Office"-
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:15am

The London Grind... (Originally Posted: 03/02/2011)

Mainly aimed at people in the industry...

...Teams across the main banks in London are suffering from high turnover. Leaves guys like me (junior VP) with real headaches as we lack junior support - end up doing crazy hours again....

...what is going on? Are people just not able to deal with the new paradigm of pay?

Deal flow isn't bad but teams are thin as a result of losses of juniors...

Same in NY?

From the ghetto....
  • 2
Most Helpful
May 30, 2018 - 10:03am

Having gone through the banking grind in London and then recruited for large cap PE roles, I would say that most rankings in here don't make much sense to me, largely as I don't understand what they are based on.

Looking back, personally I believe what matters most is:
- Relevant deal flow (you don't want to sit in your chair for 2 years building pitches, only doing capital increases, or being the industry sparring partner for the M&A guys)
- Exits (there's some go-to shops for the top funds that HHs get in touch with first (sometimes exclusively))

In London, GS / MS / JPM generally trump all others in terms of exits. Sometimes HHs throw a PJT RR or EVR guy in the mix (especially on the Distressed side of things), but the right team from these banks will go a long way in terms of recruiting.

The majority of funds will consider everyone from GS to DB and EVR to GHL. For these you should generally have a strong deal sheet, good uni and grades, and a Euro language. However, a guy from my class made an amazing exit with only one deal (in the end it's not in the analyst's control, but more deal experience obviously helps - ideally also buyside. Looking to leave with 4 sellsides on your deal sheet is harder than with 1 buy- and 1 sellside. Most of the time in deal discussions you'll spend time talking about the buyside deal anyway)

If you want you can include other factors into your assessment like pay (EB pay is generally above BB pay with exception of Laz and Roth who pay their analysts fairly crappy compared to a PJT/EVR-type place), work/life (some BBs do more for w/l than EBs, often EB lifestyle is still pretty decent though) and "reputation" (GS or bust), but most who join the madness are set on leaving after 2 years anyway, so the points above are probably more important.

To end with a very subjective note: If I were to make the decision of entering banking again, I'd probably shoot for the top 3 BBs or EVR/PJT/MoCo over other BBs/Laz/Roth/other EBs, but that's just me.

May 30, 2018 - 10:19am

It will never hurt and will often be a plus. What you will notice when recruiting is that HHs reach out and say "Fund A is looking for a 'insert language'-speaker". Often funds are looking for several languages and are prepared to hire for example a French and a German. If in this case you speak both French and German your obviously a step ahead. But yes, generally languages help.

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:16am

The bonus tax is ~0.5 right?

fdba Emory Blaine and BBA or otherwise trying to find the perfect pseudonym.
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:18am
Clarkey:
Because nobody wants to stay in Banking past Analyst level.

That has always been the case.... so nothing new

Any other insights - particularly from guys in banking?

From the ghetto....
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:19am

With the commuting and the bullshit you have to put up with on the tube on Friday nights, etc...it's just so much more stressful to be a banker in London than in most places. Most people can tough it out for most jobs, but when combined with banking hours it's a deadly combination. People want OUT of the industry.

  • 1
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:20am
Tier2Sta:
Mainly aimed at people in the industry...

...Teams across the main banks in London are suffering from high turnover. Leaves guys like me (junior VP) with real headaches as we lack junior support - end up doing crazy hours again....

...what is going on? Are people just not able to deal with the new paradigm of pay?

Deal flow isn't bad but teams are thin as a result of losses of juniors...

Same in NY?

It doesn't surprise me really, it probably has a lot to do with the pay and people deciding to jump to higher paying banks/boutiques. The 50% tax is always a kick in the balls too.

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:21am
IBD_Captain:
Tier2Sta:
Mainly aimed at people in the industry...

...Teams across the main banks in London are suffering from high turnover. Leaves guys like me (junior VP) with real headaches as we lack junior support - end up doing crazy hours again....

...what is going on? Are people just not able to deal with the new paradigm of pay?

Deal flow isn't bad but teams are thin as a result of losses of juniors...

Same in NY?

It doesn't surprise me really, it probably has a lot to do with the pay and people deciding to jump to higher paying banks/boutiques. The 50% tax is always a kick in the balls too.

I am talking about guys leaving from BBs and top boutiques - taking a look at GHL, CS, MS as examples at the moment - heavy losses from London teams. And juniors have the least in terms of deferrals and stock in their bonuses so it is still odd.... buyside isn't exactly a big recruiter in London at the moment either...

From the ghetto....
  • 2
Sep 6, 2018 - 7:22am

My experience:
Analyst I & II leaving usually go to their home countries (most London analysts are from the continent) to equal or better pay and fewer hours (that isn't always the case though)
Buyside exits in London usually Analyst III / Associate I

I'm not surprised that more and more people go home: London has to some extent lost its place as the unprecedented place to be in European finance as the political and regulatory climate has shifted, pay has gone down and taxes gone up, and living in England kind of sucks..

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:25am
OJS:
My experience:
Analyst I & II leaving usually go to their home countries (most London analysts are from the continent) to equal or better pay and fewer hours (that isn't always the case though)
Buyside exits in London usually Analyst III / Associate I

I'm not surprised that more and more people go home: London has to some extent lost its place as the unprecedented place to be in European finance as the political and regulatory climate has shifted, pay has gone down and taxes gone up, and living in England kind of sucks..

I agree that the regulatory climate and class envy fueled hatred of bankers in the UK has gone too far. London is a fantastic place to live (I prefer it to NYC), but I agree the UK kind of sucks in general.

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:24am

Interesting, my professor was just telling me to look at applying in London because the offices were decimated starting last fall. He had been told by colleagues that many of the foreigners had decided to return home, wanted to work remotely, etc. Basically the same as has been stated above. I know the commutes are atrocious in London but I still love the city!

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:26am

I'm going to approach this from a slightly different angle. I'd say that generally recruitment in IB FO has been a lot tougher in the last 3 years than at any time in last couple of decades. The grads that actually got hired have therefore, on average, been of a higher callibre than previous years. These same grads would probably have been the ones who would have been risk loving in a bull market, but decided the relative stability of a job in a recession was more appealing than starting their own business etc. However ,with the subsequent change in the risk to reward of banking combined with a better economic outlook, the opportunity cost of spending their early years in banking is too great and many have left.

I know atleast four Analysts who have decided to start/buy a business in the past 6 months. However, I don't know if this is just the norm for any class.

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:32am
godsavethequeen:
Probably only a little less than new yorkers on a weekly basis, but we take much more holiday.

Or you could look at it this way.... we get given 5 weeks holiday but then are "strongly encouraged" to sell it back to the bank.

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:45am

Tax treatment for americans overseas is quite complex. Basic idea is that you need to declare all foreign sourced income to the IRS, tax is calculated on it, and then you get a tax credit for any foreign tax paid which offsets your US liability. However, it can be complex and professional advice from an accountant familiar with these issues is highly advisable

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:46am

London FT (Originally Posted: 05/30/2007)

So this summer I will be interning in IBD at a BB in New York. I know there have been a lot of posts about working in London etc but I was wondering if anyone had advice on how to suggest to HR (assuming I get an offer) that I want to work in the London office. I think FT offers only come out the first week in September at the bank I will be working at so I was thinking of applying for some accelerated interviews at some other banks in London just in case (that way I won't have to do assesment centres too).
Has anyone been in the same situation or have any advice on getting in to London FT from a summer in NY or know how to find out about accelerated interviews in London?

Thanks for your help!

Sep 6, 2018 - 7:48am

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Sep 6, 2018 - 7:49am

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Sep 6, 2018 - 7:50am

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  • Intern/Summer Analyst (387) $83