2 days before I was about to start, got a call from HR saying they cannot 100% guarantee the position and told me to wait. This is after I rejected a position in another bank when I called them up 2 months ago to ensure my offer still stood and would be okay.
What should I do, what would you do in my situation? Should I let the firm know I rejected another bank already in favour for them?
| +171 | The "Not So Obvious" things that get you a return offer? | 20 | 7h | |
| +102 | Is my life over after not getting GS? | 25 | 5h | |
| +65 | Best IB group on the Street | 28 | 2s | |
| +56 | BIG FOUR ARE PARADISE | 15 | 8h | |
| +49 | Thoughts and tips on how to speak like an investment banker. | 25 | 7h | |
| +47 | Tell me one good reason why Jefferies isn’t going to be a top bank in the next 5 years | 23 | 29m | |
| +36 | UBS Outlook | 28 | 1d | |
| +34 | How to deal with egotistical team? | 6 | 3d | |
| +33 | Highest Paid Bankers in Toronto? | 51 | 6h | |
| +25 | Got RBC offer but I have cold feet accepting. | 33 | 1d |
Career Resources
Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling.
yes. i would try to speak to the people you met at the company during the recruiting process to see if they can pull for you.
Thanks for your reply man, much appreciate it. The thing is I don't want to sound arrogant because everyone at the team is feeling the pressure. Should I send 'proof' of my offer from th other company? Would you advise I do this by email or phone call?
Man I feel like an idiot. I told my parents, friends, etc. that I will be starting and now I just feel so choked. I have even cried because I feel so down specially when my parents told me to accept the other offer from another company which was felt much secure.
Sorry to hear that - hopefully they end up taking you after all. If you don't mind, could you elaborate as to what kind of bank (size, location) this is?
Bulge Bracket, Top 3 investment bank, New York.
Best of luck man, hope you get to stay where you are!
thnx, Will keep updated what happens. Already started looking at fall back options, AGAIN.
This is exactly why people should have no compunction about reneging.
Sorry to hear that man.
Yea, I had mine rescinded as well, after telling EVERYONE what I would be doing and who I would be working for... feels f-ing terrible, I know. Good luck to you.
NEVER lose your BlackBerry www.conveniencesoftware.com
[quote=Convenience Software]Yea, I had mine rescinded as well, after telling EVERYONE what I would be doing and who I would be working for... feels f-ing terrible, I know. Good luck to you.
NEVER lose your BlackBerry www.conveniencesoftware.com[/quote]
Thnx dude. Sorry to hear about your situation. Did they give you severance pay and alternative job offerings? Was this a FT position or a SA? Hope you are able to secure a job in this climate. Gd luk.
That's horrible. So what are you going to do now?
Sorry to hear this:
"Should I let the firm know I rejected another bank already in favour for them?" As to this, dont think it'll matter much/dont think they will care. But if you want to, go ahead.
This, once again, is why I believe freely in reneging.
This just happened to me but with 4 weeks before starting.
I don't really feel there is anything you can do before they make their decision to revoke or not. I won't get too into my situation, but if this firm does revoke the offer and they have a regional office that you might be interested in, then ask about or propose moving to a regional office that has higher works levels/better staffing needs. That's about the only play you have with this firm if they do revoke.
I'm a supporter of reneging. Just to cover myself, I've been applying to random job openings over the past couple of months. It hasn't helped me yet, but I was just waiting for this to happen.
It's tough being a laborer in a capitalist's world. Oh well.
This has gotta be JPM. Been hearing alot about them hiring too many and they have two training cycles. Aparently they created crazy rules during first cycle of training trying to get rid of people.
this is entirely inaccurate. No one has been cut. The only rules I'm aware of are the standard rules any bank would have (i.e. if you fail out of training you can get fired). There are indeed two training cycles, with the first group training first and then joining their groups, and the second group working first and training after the first cycle.
I have heard from people at Citi that they are getting rid of anyone who fails an exam though.
jws43yale,
Yeah I suspect it is JPM.
What type of crazy rules have you heard that the firm instituted?
Banks really do not give a shit about anyone, and I keep trying to tell my starry-eyed SA friends that.
I thought that was Citi where if you fail one of the tests you're out.
I also heard they shortened training at Citi to 5 weeks, making each training day unbearably long.
MDR, I'm sure you're aware of incoming JPM analysts being shifted to the commercial bank for a year or being told that their start date has been "delayed" one year.
http://ibankinglife.blogspot.com
What about S&T and ER , is there any rigorous training like in IBD?
Yes ibankinglife I am very aware of that...but no one's offer was rescinded and the point about the crazy rules during training was completely inaccurate.
Well I spoken to the person responsible for me and they said they are fighting for me and I am number one on the list. I expresssed my interest in any other positions in other offices in case my position gets revoked. They said they will get back to me so its just a waiting game for now.
I am quite doubtful and I feel I am left in the dark and they have already made up my mind about me long time ago. I just feel so choked after rejecting an another offer which I was close to taking up.
I feel like I am just a condom. Been used and now they throwing me away in the last minute.
My advice to those who have offers. Keep still applying and always hedge your options in this kind of market.
.
no models and bottles for you
Chances of BofA offer being rescinded? (Originally Posted: 05/19/2009)
Hi all, I will be starting at BofA in July in the FIG IBD group as a full time analyst. I was wondering what the chances are that my offer will be rescinded before starting work? Also, what would be the protocol if my offer were to be rescinded (i.e. would i recieve some kind of monetary compensation?)
Many thanks
Thanks, that makes me feel so much better.
Thanks, that makes me feel so much better.
Like really, really slim. It's more likely that they will fire you within 6 months after training. It's only 2 months till training so chances are low they will rescind this late. Just do your best and don't slack.
0%.
Your chance of losing a job in the next year or so depends on how the markets are doing - if deal flow is up, good for you. If not, good luck to you. Unlike S&T and Research front-office positions, IBD is so heavily dependent on deal flow that there is a lot more variability.
I agree that there is a zero % chance of your offer being rescinded at this point. Deal flow in general has obviously been up over the past month or so in FIG, so I am optimistic on that sector. The industry is poised for consolidation (banks) and PE are hording cash. It's only a matter of time that deals start to explode. Good luck.
i know exactly how it feels. there's really not much you can say. worst case scenario, the people who told you about "number 1 on the list" know you won't be there but just making up stuff and the hr's are just delaying the process of letting you know. if you don't mind, i'd like to know which BB it is too. did you intern there last summer? it doesn't sound like you did and the interns usually get a little ahead of you at this stage. i would try to tell the more senior people that you turned down the other offer for them, but avoid telling the hr because it definitely won't help. keep us updated.
2011 Probability of Rescinded Offers (Originally Posted: 10/26/2010)
Although this was obviously more common two years ago. Now that the economy and hiring is picking up, what are the probabilities/chances of offers being rescinded for the current year?
I haven't been around long enough to know of a time when hiring was great so it would be great to hear about those who have been through more normal times.
Hi there. Yes, I did 2 internships with this firm in two different offices supporting the same team.
very low, recruiting was meager to begin with
If you got an offer, stop worrying about rescinding. Would be real dumb of the company to waste the time and effort of recruiting and giving you an offer in the first place. Stop worrying.
Thanks.
How could anyone even know this?
Don't worry.
is this for a FO position
BSC rescinding offers? (Originally Posted: 03/28/2008)
http://dealbreaker.com/2008/03/notice_him_mouthing_im_so_sorr.php
Any truth to this? Or is DB just spreading baseless rumors again?
Yes, M&A.
As a current and hopeful SA w/ Bear, I'd like to write it off as a baseless rumor. Then again, I'm not in equities, so I cannot fully comment on that situation.
Until you get official word, nothing's certain... you can't just listen to what random people/websites on the Internet say. And yes I realize the irony considering I am a random person and run a banking website. :)
My advice would remain the same: hedge your offers and shop around, but don't assume it's all over yet.
first just wanted to say thats a terrible situation and sorry to hear. in this market a lot of things are just out of your control. just to clarify though, was your offer for full-time summer 2008 summer, and you just got it rescinded basically a few days before you were to start while still in training? if so, that's a real gut punch, terrible
JPMorgan rescinding contracts for Bear offers (Originally Posted: 04/14/2008)
Got my release contract in the mail today from JPMorgan. In the contract, it reiterates that I must sign and date the release form by April 30th, but it never explains consequences of what would happen if I didn't (aside from me not being able to use JPM career services...)
Any idea what happens if we don't sign the contracts?
I imagine they would just fire you, and you wouldn't receive any of the (albiet meager) benefits they're offering you.
What department were you going to join at Bear? I was set to join Bear as well and am still waiting for the official word
Sales and Trading - Global Equities Division Analyst program
Layoffs -> Rescinded Offers? (Originally Posted: 12/17/2011)
I have a returning SA offer at a BB, and I have decided that this is where I see myself working after college. I'm ready to accept my offer, but I'm worried that with all of the recent layoffs, offers could be rescinded as well (think 08/09). If there's a chance that offers could be rescinded, I'll participate in on-campus recruiting "just in case," but I'd rather not go through the recruiting process again.
I know I'm being paranoid, but does anyone think this is a possibility this year? Are specific FO departments being hit harder than others?
So what ended up happening?
you betcha. keep looking in the spring.
I'm also interested to hear what people think. I have a FT analyst offer that starts in July and am starting to get a little nervous with these layoffs being announced. How often do rescissions usually occur and how do they decide who gets cut?
BofA rescinded offers made to MBA students who need visa sponsorship (Originally Posted: 03/08/2009)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa648182-0c3d-11de-b87d-0000779fd2ac.html
Any thought, guys? How likely other banks, especially American banks will do the same?
Hey guys. Well I talked to the VP and they told me to be optimistic. One of the MDs in the team is sorting it out and they told me just to wait. What do you guys think of this?
Wow that's crazy...
It's a provision within TARP, other banks took money from TARP would have to do the same.
Shit this sucks. So we're not only talking about associates, but we're talking about international students for analyst positions with Citi, GS and MS since all these firms made workers redundant.
I feel u man... protectionism is taking place in America now and its fuking scary
If BofA did this because they HAVE to in order to comply with government regulations of TARP recipients, then it makes sense that other tarp recipients would be confronted with the same problem. This seems to be a valid reason for a company to rescind the offer- they can't legally employ the employee. When they start rescinding offers due to "market conditions", than we've got real problems.
Does anyone know whether the BB banks would be able to pay off TARP ahead of time? Or is it just impossible given the markets?
Goldman, Morgan and JPMorgan all made offers to pay back the TARP early. I'm not sure if they can do it within the next few months.
Many TARP recipients have indicated their willingness to pay back the money as soon as it is PRUDENTLY PRACTICAL, including GS, MS and JPM. However, only a few relatively small recipients have really started the repayment process.
Under the current market condition, BofA and Citi may need a very long time to get off the TARP list. GS, MS and JPM may be in much better sharp, but I don't expect them to give back the money until they see clear signals of economic recovery. With that said, I think big bank returning TARP money is not to happen any time soon.
It's called change you can believe in.
I dont know if thats Obama's fault.. the bill is pushed by Senators Charles Grassley (R-Iowa)
This FT article is confusing. What do you guys think of this?
http://www.businessweek.com/blogs/money_politics/archives/2009/02/h-1b_…
I wonder if BofA only did this to MBA students or undergrads as well?
If it is required by law then all banks WILL HAVE TO follow, otherwise if they don't then it means that BofA simply interpreted the law to their "best ability" and took the course of action that is in the bank's "best interest". I guess time will tell and we will have to wait and see what others do.
As per my understanding, BOA never took international students for analyst positions in the first place. Certain banks did, but I seriously doubt that this particular trend will continue in the future.
this is pure racism... but what did you expect from the worst bank on the street (well if you consider charlotte to be on the streeet)
i wonder when they will start rescinding other offers to MBA students
boa did take international students for analysts position - but they make you sign some form saying they don't sponsor int'l students before you interview with you. But as a matter of fact they hired intl students in the past and helped them get H1B (those who didn't get H1B were relocated to London and elsewhere).
Lucy, was this happening over the past couple of years or so? I remember that a while ago firms did sponsor, but recently, I can confirm even for some of my friends at target schools, JPMorgan, BOA and some other firms declined to sponsor.
son of a..
I hope other banks don't follow suit. Otherwise, where else am I going to get those russian girls and bollywood babes with fobby accents.
Gosh-darn it!
but no seriously, that sucks.
The world has changed. And we must change with it.
lucy, the past was prior to the TARP money, thats the whole point here. do you not get that?
It was bound to happen and will continue.
In the article, it only says foreign MBA's. Will foreign undergrad's face the same fate? Thoughts anyone?
I think the TARP rule applies to all international students. For SAs, this really shouldn't matter because it's one summer. For full time, if you're under OPT, then you should be clear for a year and hopefully by then these firms might have cleared that debt except for Citi and BOA. Also, I think for international students, the European banks should be a better choice now since they don't have these particular restrictions on them.
According to the forbes article below, JP Morgan might follow suit.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/09/foreign-workers-visas-business-banks.h…
Why BoA did not relocate those MBAs to Europe? Better image though...
bad news...
Dimon Mentions Rescinding Offers to Students (Originally Posted: 05/20/2009)
Interesting, you never hear anyone address this.
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/jamie-dimon-on-jpmorgans-f…
It's unfortunate they are putting you through this hassle... sounds like a waiting game from here on out...Goodluck man.
But having studied TARP in depth, I get the feeling that this protectionist provision would have slid by the wayside and not been enforced in the last administration.
I think the present administration, clearly having a more populist slant on things, probably considers this provision a victory for the good guys.
Could be totally wrong, though.
In either case, TARP has been far more trouble than it was worth for the esteemed Mr. Dimon.
Edmundo Braverman- While I respect your knowledge and the major contribution you make to WSO, I don't understand the blanket anti-Obama sentiments in this post and on this board in general. Speaking as someone who opposes the TARP provision about international workers, I strongly believe that any president would have had to go by that. Virtually the rest of the industrialized world has similar provisions given the economic times and frustrations of their citizens. Also, it would be quite difficult not to enforce a provision like this (which you claim the Bush administration would have done) which so obviously goes against the national sentiment. It's a temporary program which I'm sure will phase out. Also, on broader issues of protectionism, you'll notice that Obama is pretty much completely anti-protectionist, not touching free trade agreements.
Again, I greatly respect the knowledge and insights you bring to WSO (and I have learned much from them), but the venom against our president here seems to be guided by the fact that everyone thinks that they will be in the top tax bracket within the next year and the only thing they care about are tax cuts for the top 1% of earners while single mothers at the poverty line are struggling.
Chanho
Ayn Rand would kill you on sight if she were still alive.
I didn't mean that Bush was such a capitalist hero that he wouldn't have enforced the provision, I meant that he and his team were such a sloppy bunch of cronies that the provision would have been ignored like most other regulations that made it more difficult for them to enrich themselves.
Also not sure where you're picking up anti-Obama sentiment in my comment. I don't think even the most ardent Obama supporter would disagree that he's a populist.
Guys, in all honesty, Obama's actions against Wall Street could have been MUCH MORE populist than it was. Geithner even wants to get rid of caps. SMART people realize that investment bankers and finance in general is a linchpin of America's success. When the TARP banks post consecutive quarterly profits for a year it will shut up the people who don't understand whats going on (and want their guaranteed $25 per hour union wage to hang up picture frames in offices).
period
Was this the case for everyone? Or have some been left unemployed at the last minute?
I have a feeling the offers were probably rescinded and after Dimon's speech JPM PR probably realized it doesn't look good for potential recruits to hear others were left high and dry so they prob got HR on the horn and told them to find a place for these 50 kids and told the New York Times to clarify what happened to them in their article.
Obviously my own speculation.
JPMorgan has a company policy which dictates that once they made a decision to hire someone, they will do their best to accommodate any VISA issues. I've seen several cases of people sent to London/Asia for a period of time to resolve their US VISA situation.
While I do not have information on what's happening at the moment, I think it is quite likely that JPM is placing their US hires abroad.
Most prestigious banks do that, like JPM, GS, MS etc. The problem is that all this trouble of resolving US VISA issue is costly and makes the employers inclined to discriminate against foreign employees.
I'd say this is a pretty true statement especially for an investment banker forum. It gets kind of hilarious though when 40k salary "joe the plumber" workers get hooked on the fox message and are also pushing for top 1% tax cuts too.
Are some of you guys seriously saying shame on Obama?
I have my problems with some of his policies, but how is it Obama's fault that the provision regarding H1-B visas and firms that take TARP money was co-sponsored by REPUBLICAN Senator Chuck Grassley and slipped in at the last second?
It's called the GRASSLEY-SANDERS amendment for god's sake.
If you want to cry about this stupid provision, send your remarks to the GOP.
I am going to training for the corporate finance analyst programme. My position is still not yet confirmed though and they said that they will let me know in 1 month (when I will be training).
What do you guys make of this?
Thnx
Advice for friend whose SA offer was just withdrawn (Originally Posted: 02/19/2010)
Friend of mine got a SA offer with a BB (JPM/BarCap) Sales desk over a month ago and signed. Today she was informed that the desk is being restructured and they won't exist as a team by summer time hence her summer offer is obsolete. HR told her they'd do their best to place her somewhere else.
Questions: 1. How likely do you think it is she'll get placed elsewhere by HR, keeping in mind that the bank does desk specific SA hiring? 2. What would your next course of action be if you were in this situation/what advice would you give her?
Note: this is for London
Call HR back. Ask if she can count on HR to place her in a similar group or if she can start interviewing with other firms as a backup. Obviously, if the employer is saying they may have to renege, it's only fair for your friend to have the opportunity to renege, too.
May be too late to interview with other firms as London S&T SA recruiting is coming to a close (started around November). The banks still recruiting are done with first rounds and are in the final round/offer stages.
I was thinking of telling her to call the people she interviewed with on the desk and asking them to recommend her to other desks within the bank.
tell her to be in constant touch with HR and be proactive about it
This happened to me for FT position on a sales desk at a European bank in NY... the whole desk was split into 2 teams that merged with other groups 2 weeks before my start date due to "the crisis" and HR rep told me my resume was going into "their database" (words of death) I started looking elsewhere. They said technically the position in my offer didn't exist anymore so they had no obligations to employ me based on what I signed.
BnewzSrumr - thats terrible, Im sorry to hear that. How did it all end - did you get the offer?
I ended up getting another offer at a different bank a few months later, been there for the past year so it worked out. I actually asked the people I had interviewed with for any suggestions of people I should contact, because obviously they liked me enough to hire me and understood my situation, and that helped.
IB Refugee: what now? (Originally Posted: 03/08/2010)
During my senior year, I went to several superdays and eventually accepted an offer as an IB analyst at a BB. One of the bankers in my group told me I was considered their top incoming analyst by far. Several months later, my bank went under, and about a month before graduation, my offer was rescinded. This was unfortunate considering I had decided (after signing an offer) that GPA no longer mattered--and my own had plummeted down to something that wouldn't even make a normal BB cut-off.
(I guess I should mention I'm an '08 grad from a LAC and went to a reputable prep school. In college, I was a varsity athlete, member of a good sorority, and held several leadership positions. I also interned at a big name HF early on and had been going to BB SA superdays since sophomore year.)
When I heard the bad news, IB analyst positions were all gone, and unable to find anything else, I started volunteering in a research capacity for a business school. I applied to every IB/S&T job out there and went to 10+ recruiters in NYC/DC, who were not helpful at all and just wanted to place me in Admin/Investor Relations. The job market around late 2008/early '09 was like the Dark Ages, and finding my prospects impossibly bleak, I ended up traveling, volunteering, and attending a language school overseas.
I've been back in the US for several months now, and though I apply to probably 20 jobs a day in every possible location and have made it to several final rounds for various S&T positions, I am still finding it impossible to get a job--especially something in IB. I tried giving up hope and foraying into a different industry (law, publishing, media, etc.)--I even made a final round at Vogue. But this alternate plan didn't work--the companies I interviewed with said my financial experience made it obvious I was only changing career paths because of the recession. Also, my top choice is still banking.
People I meet with keep giving me the whole "if you had graduated any other year" spiel but frankly, that doesn't change the fact that I don't have a job. Is there anything I should do? Is it time to throw in the towel?
...no way to tell, but it's definitely promising tha thtey're sending you to training. be optimistic though (what do you have to gain by acting otherwise)--if there are concrete steps that you can take to help line something else up, start taking them. but most probably there aren't, so really, don't worry about it.
move to Canada...its differnet here..they like diversity...actually apply internationally...forget the States, forget NYC, before they hire you, theyll need to take care of 10 000 ex-trades working as barmen and belboys
No they don't. In Canada, the only thing that matters is GPA.
That really sucks man, I'm sorry to hear that. I guess if I had any words of encouragement it would be to realize that IB is not out of the picture, just maybe for the meantime. I know it will be difficult, but try to get a F500 position, MO, or anywhere else in the finance world. I have know plenty of people that didn't go the BB or Boutique route, went to business school and now have great options. B-School can be the ultimate equalizer.
One other thing. Are you just applying to general company emails? Are you going through HR? I came out just after you and also found it extremely difficult. I was able to get interviews by getting on the phone with them. Get on the company website, find an MD or VP and call them. Have your pitch down pat and make the best of it. Also, I would bullshit and say that I would be in town (NYC, SF, Charlotte) during a specific time frame (when I obviously wasn't) and ask if they had time to sit with me. It worked almost everytime I was able to establish a decent conversation. If you are half-way personable you will pull off some interviews.
Hope this helps...Keep your chin up
Have you tried reaching out to the people that had offered you a job before. I know you said your firm went under (which sucks!), but are you still in contact with any of them?
Mezz: Yeah, I'm in touch with a couple of them but not any MDs. They know I'm still unemployed and they email me once in a while to see what's going on, but no one has really suggested anything job-wise. I'm kind of afraid I burned my bridges when I told them I started applying to jobs in other industries, but I guess I can shoot them an email and see if they'd be able to put in a good word.
Boutique Banking: I'm actually a finalist at a F500 right now for a Corp Finance job. Unfortunately, like most Corp Finance jobs at non-financial companies, the pay is low and the work is basically just back-office stuff. I'm definitely considering it, but it'd be my last resort since I would strongly prefer IB, even in an 'undesirable' city.
When the bank that acquired my bank rescinded offers for analysts, there was something in the letter that said I was entitled to 6 months of career counseling. No one I knew took advantage of this--I really wish I had.
you mention you went to a reputable prep school, were a varsity athlete, member of a good sorority, and made it to the final round at Vogue. I am guessing you are polished/charming and have a good personality. how about being more aggressive in networking with boutiques, i am sure a bunch of people will be willing to talking on the phone/meet up over coffee if you explain your situation well.
and what mezz said of course.
I just realized my original message doesn't really convey the desperation of my situation. I see a lot of posts from recent grads who never got a job offer and are wondering what to do now. I had two FT offers senior year and was one of two chicks at my school that got IB jobs that year. It wasn't like I didn't try hard enough. But I've probably gone on 70 interviews since 2008. When I've been called in, I almost always make it to the final round, and often to the final two--but nothing ever works out. I guess I'm no longer clutch. Or it's "just the economy," as my wizened elders keep saying.
I networked the shit out of my college and prep school alumni base. It got to the point where Career Services asked me to give lectures to sophs/juniors on how to network effectively. To this day, I get emails from freshmen asking for internship or career advice (ironic.) Unfortunately, nothing in the form of a job has ever materialized from my networking efforts. I occasionally get called or emailed by MDs asking if I'm still unemployed. They'll say my name came up during some discussion or they were just curious for an update, but this doesn't result in anything except sympathy. Thus, I've become extremely skeptical about the importance and/or effectiveness of networking in a saturated economy.
I guess I could start taking advanced modeling courses/ learn VBA, but at what point should someone just give up on finance and get on with life? I feel like if I channeled these efforts in the film industry, I'd probably have an Oscar by now.
Where do you live? Are you geographically close to finance centres; i.e., can you continue to interview without ruining yourself financially?
Don't give up. All you need is 1 break and the whole picture changes. If the answer to my previous question is 'yes' then don't settle for something and don't get discouraged. At some point you may have to take a job doing something else to earn money, get health coverage (etc...) but you should figure out what your breaking point is create a schedule around that.
I would continue to retrace your steps, network...speak with everyone who will answer the phone. The world is improving so people who had nothing to offer in December may be able to help now.
Also, do something (volunteer, take an accounting class, whatever) that you can talk about during interviews. The problem with this gap is more optical than anything else (your skills aren't really deteriorating since you haven't developped any practical, on-the-job skills yet...) and doing something productive with your time will be good for morale and as discussion fodder for interviews (or defensive...as an answer to the inevitable, "wtf have you been doing for the past yea"...)
Good luck
I feel the job market in IB has recovered significantly since of late... and given your background you shouldn't have much trouble landing interviews...
anyways sounds like you have applied to a lot of places but... have you considered locations outside the U.S.? or something like TFA or peacecorp?
also if MDs keep in touch with you, that's a good sign, I feel eventually there will be an opening and you will be contacted. I feel once in a while positions open up and recruiters DO get back in touch with you if there is an open position. In the last few months, a MM and elite boutique that I interviewed with a while back e-mailed me saying they had an open position and would like a resume so just keep your head up.
Wow, 70 interviews is a lot. I'm shocked that you didn't get a single offer from 70 interviews. I think your skepticism for networking is warranted, especially in this economy. Its really hit or miss. I myself have been unemployed for quite a while now (6 months), and may have just screwed up another interview today (crosses fingers). I completely understand your frustration because I myself have completely exhausted most networking resources and keep being edged out in interviews.
In times like these, I think people will only stick their neck out for close friends and family. Anyways, In my case, It came down to others being better with case studies than me. In yours, from what I understand, I think employers are just hesitant to pull the trigger and hire someone who basically has no full-time work experience when the market is saturated with currently employed people with extensive work experience. They just can't justify it to themselves. Also, at this point, you're no longer part of the Entry Level group, and your college accomplishments are fading into the distance.
The only meaningful advice I can give you:
Contact small boutiques in your area and offer to work for free for a few months(there should be lists on here for most major cities) while continuing your job hunt. You will gain some experience and best case scenario: they hire you full-time or refer you to a position. Worst case scenario: you get good recommendations after a few months. Make sure they're reputable of course, and won't just take advantage of your free labor. Its a gamble, and may or may not pay off, but the same can be said for going back to school to get a Masters or paying for WallStreetPrep courses. The summer of my junior year, I emailed dozens and dozens of boutiques in NYC, offered to work for free, and received a FT Paid offer from a small boutique. Of course, those were different times but the point still stands.
As for when you should give up on Finance...I know its impolite to ask a woman her age, but how old are you ? 23, 24 ? You're young, If you really want to do IB then give it more time before you decide to cut your losses and move on. The fact that you're getting interviews is a sign that you're not just throwing hail marys.
Those are my 2 cents. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss resources for job hunting.
A friend of mine finished his UNDERGRADUATE degree at 26 years of age. Despite, having spent that much time at uni he only had like 1 solid internship, and he didn't even get a FT offer. Yet he still managed to get a grad role at a BB IBD.
Relevence? in retrospect i'm not really sure, i'm just saying if your like 24, i think its too early to move on. people go to IBD to be at the pinnacle of the business world. you could spend your entire life working in industry and never achieve what an average banker does.
lol, pinnacle of the business word. One of the best jokes I have lately heard here.
Its always darkest before the dawn... or something like that... anyway - dont give up, as it seems that you are just inches away from your goal. As to the age thing - I'll be 24 this year, finishing my masters, but only doing an IBD SA (in London) - I do feel a bit uncomfortable, but definitely not too old.
It's always darkest just before it goes completely black, accordign to Chmn Mao.
I've been in a similar position. I got laid off from my bank beginning of 09 and it was like the world had ended. I also have good grades, went to good prep school, college, grad school, sorority etc so I totally relate.
I'm finally going back into banking now, just over a year after I was laid off. In the interim I worked at a financial services provider, which paid the bills and kept me sane. There is nothing worse than sitting at home all day, watching TV and feeling bad for yourself. I did this for a while, it's awful.
Tips I can suggest
be open minded about positions if you really want to get back into banking. You went to a language school - would you consider joining a sales desk that would highly value those language skills? It seems from your post you were going for IBD.
be open minded about location. Would you move to another city where the banking is more regional but perhaps will appreciate your strong educational background more. Perhaps West Coast (tech) or Houston (energy)?
be willing to take another job while you search. Make sure the hours are flexible and it's somewhat related to finance. There is no shame in working for a paycheck, no bank should expect someone to live off their parents or get into debt just because they're trying to get back into the industry. I interviewed a lot and my current job was a non-issue - I mostly got asked about my banking experience and my education.
network in person, not online. I made some great contacts attending an alumni conference in my City, and I did some temporary work for an alum who was trying to start a cleantech fund. If I had just randomly searched him in the database I wouldn't have found him. Go to alumni drinks - it's hard when everyone's talking about work, but if you act like you're enjoying the time off instead of being depressed in the corner, people will want to talk to you. If you went to a LAC check and see if you can get affiliate membership at one of the Ivy Clubs in NYC to expand your network. It sounds cheesy but seriously this stuff only exists because it works. Also a lot of older people (i.e. MD level who can hire you) suck at email and online stuff.
Good luck!
Thanks for all the responses so far--the suggestions are actually very helpful. Just to answer some of the questions...
Turning 24 this year. I'm now back to living at home about 2 hours outside of Manhattan. I lived in NYC for close to a year after graduation for unpaid internships but couldn't sustain the living expenses. I recently decided it wasn't worth it to spend $500 per month on transportation (train into NYC + Metrocard) for yet another unpaid internship (I've done 3 in the past 1.5 years) that may or may not lead anywhere.
When I said 70 interviews, I also included informational and courtesy interviews where it was clear that there wasn't an immediate position available.
I'm actually a member of an Ivy Club in the city and used to go to many networking events. But it seemed everyone that went to these either wanted to find a job or a date. I stopped going.
One thing I'm also wondering is if anyone's had luck trying to network through athletics. I play squash and am decent, though this wasn't the varsity sport I was involved with. I wouldn't mind pursuing some sort of 'squash networking' approach, but older men probably feel awkward playing against a 20-something girl...
Sounds like you have good stats, but IMO you made a critical mis-step in getting out of the recruiting game by doing research at a b-school and traveling. I saw kids who didn't have half the stats you describe and ended up making out ok. On top of that, you're a chick... which should help as well.
IMO, the best route would have been to network and reach out to boutiques and restructuring shops, explain your situation. Worst case, they really like you but dont have any headcount space, but keep you in the back of their mind for down the line when there's more visibility... for say... a time like now.
In any case, whats done is done. Now I think you need to just keep hitting the pavement and trying to land something. I'd do exactly what I described above. Do it all over again. Network network network. With boutiques, with BB, with everyone.
Hmmm... not sure about the squash networking thing... but it couldn't hurt. If by awkward you mean staring at your ass instead of the ball... then yes, I think older men would often find themselves in the midst of awkwardness. Go for it.
I had a similar experience as fp175... lost my job at a BB. As well, I had realized that S&T wasn't for me... so when I was looking for banking/corp fin/pe type jobs, I was going up against laid off bankers in interviews... In the end, it was a network that opened up a position. This was almost a year later.
I can completely relate to your situation, I tried everything... networked the hell out of my alumni addressbook, called up all my connections with the bank... tried recruiters, tried friends, tried friend of friends, tried friend of friend of friends...
Besides everything everyone already said, I would say, take a few hours each day to brush up on financial modeling skills, reading the news, keeping in tune with the markets in general. That way, when interviews do come up, you'll be ready. Also, will mirror something someone else said - try internationally. Asia will be a stretch, but maybe Europe. European banks sometimes have long-term internships (6-12 mos). I'm not sure if they allow for transitions into full-time, but at the very least, if you get it, you'll have it on your resume...
It's a matter of the environment... and given your background and willpower so far, I'm sure you'll find something. I'm not saying it to cheer you up, I genuinely think someone who has demonstrated ability to previously land a top banking job and is getting pretty close and has not given up, will eventually get something since jobs are opening up now.
I also agree with PJC that old MDs/VPs calling you up is a good sign. Means they give a shit about you, and think you're worth contacting. Keep in touch with them, politely ask them to keep their eyes and ears open, and if something comes up, let you know. And your fellow undergrads working in banks too.
Good luck
Hey your situation is very similar to mine. I went to a college in NYC and graduated in may 09 with experiences at two BB's and a $10 PE fund during summer of 08. I realized the IB route was exhausted when the COO of IB at a BB told me things were super bad. I am now in Switzerland after wasting 8months in NYC, just taking the opportunity to travel just like you did I guess, but I started looking outside of the US the day I graduated in May. There is a lot of activity in the middle East, particularly Abu Dhabi and Qatar, as well as India and China. All these countries look for graduates with stellar backgrounds from the "west" like you and might I add any of these regions, (particularly the Middle East w/no tax) would make your background even more diverse when applying to Business School. I found out today about a job opportunity I got in Abu Dhabi, which is not an IB rather an investment firm whose activities are very similar to any PE firm. The small teams and the number of deals these firms conduct gives anyone more exposure than many of the analysts receive at any BB IB, as well as the exposure to broad industries and geographies instead of focusing on just one industry and country. I am planning to go into PE after this experience and I believe the number of deals which I will be exposed to across regions can itself make up for the lack of IB experience. So you should really should consider other areas outside of IB, particularly outside of the US because once you go to B-school it only really matters what you do afterwards, but you could really only get to B-school with diverse work experience (aside from the stellar gmat score up course) You have to see what sets you apart from the pack because let face it the sun will rise tomorrow and it'll be a new day, but not all IB analysts or PE associates applying to the same schools will get accepted because of the lack of diversity amongst the applicants.
Thanks everyone for all the comments so far. I think I might try for finance jobs abroad if I don't get anything by mid-April.
Marcus_Halberstram, I completely agree. It was a dumb mistake to travel abroad. But the b-school research gig was an attempt to gain some industry-specific knowledge (TMT), so I guess there's a chance this might be somewhat advantageous for Silicon Valley banking jobs. Regardless, I like your take on awkwardness.
Calling yourself a chick, using the word "clutch", top schools, and working at Vogue? I think I'm in love...I'll sign over my SA offer for a date. Totally joking ha.
This is rough. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you were going to work for Lehman. I'm surprised Barclays didn't take any of Lehman's analyst 09' class.
Anyway, a little on my background: I go to a non target was set to graduate in 09'. Pushed back my graduation to this year & signed up for BS/MS program at my engineering school for another year in school. My GPA wasn't particularly strong, and I had a one IB internship w/ zero deal experience the previous summer. I contacted an alum at a BB (regional office), went through the process, and got an SA offer. If I had tried to get a job in NYC, they would have laughed me out of town. The WC doesn't seem quite as competitive as NYC. Have you considered LA or SF/SV?
I just thought of this, since you have International experience and foreign language skills, you might try looking for something in Microfinance or at a firm like I-Dev, they might like your background.
As far as networking goes, I sort of gave up on it, but FP175's idea of going to alum meetups or conferences doesn't sound too bad.
2007Grad: That's a pretty good idea, she might be able to go into that...
Here, this is a microfinance firm that had a posting awhile back: http://www.dwmarkets.com/
[quote=Kanon]2007Grad: That's a pretty good idea, she might be able to go into that...
Here, this is a microfinance firm that had a posting awhile back: http://www.dwmarkets.com/[/quote]
Yea, also Microvest and Grameen are two other options that I can think of. Get some Fin.Modeling experience and good, respectable segue into B-School.
You're in a tough spot but the biggest mistake you can make right now is to abandon what you're doing. It's tough to put in work to network, apply, etc. with little positive feedback but as long as you do what you say you're doing, it really should be ok.
I've seen all sorts of shit when friends lost their jobs - quitting finance altogether, doing TFA, moving to an even better bank than the one they were at, moving to a start up hedge fund, moving to a huge HF/PE, journalism school, teacher's college, etc.
You obviously had the goods in the first place and if people check in with you, it means someone is invested in you on some level. It's unfortunate because you didn't work full-time anywhere - internships never will give you the same weight to apply to start-ups or hedge funds.
What is your GPA?
2007grad and Kanon: Good call. I haven't looked into microfinance much, but I checked out those sites and applied to one opening already.
helphere: My GPA is pretty miserable. Even when I was interviewing for superdays, it was a lot lower than everyone else's (3.33), though most banks thought it was somewhat justified due to my commitment to various ECs, missing about three weeks of classes every semester. Let's just say I can't even mention my final GPA during interviews or else I'd get tossed out immediately. My major GPA is pretty decent, but I don't want to look like a douche and put that on the CV.
Westfald: SF is actually my top choice right now--there's an IB gig at a MM that I'm being considered for--talked to an alum at the company who is putting in a good word. I seriously hope the West Coast location deters the more-qualified-than-me East Coast kids from applying. P.S. Once you're a FT analyst and want to use that as your bargaining chip, let's talk.
Spit that e-game yeeedig
When people post links to companies such as that microfinance one, probably 50+ people just sent in their resumes too
A 3.33 isn't all that terrible considering the other parts of your resume. It's pretty irrelevant once you pass first round interviews. I do hope you land a position at that MM you're being considered for..
This is ridiculous. Your GPA serves a screening role. Once you're talking to someone other than an HR rep, your GPA is not relevant.
You're too far removed from recruiting. You should focus your search on regional boutiques / middle market firms, do Teach for America / Peace Corps / AmeriCorps, or go to graduate school. A firm would have a hard time justifying hiring you over a fresh grad at this point.
1 question tho Lehman? or Bear? If so - send me your resume via pm if you want (you can blot out names) or if you're afraid its not going to somewhere legit you can send to my work email.
Thanks
3.33 is not low btw - it's not great but not low. My friend is a recruiter for top 3 BB and I can tell you that for a fact. Anyway, see above email, pm me and I'll see if I can help
Why do you want banking that badly btw?
lol @ GoVolckYourself - you really made a new name just to post that?
and LeatherPantz1 is right... GPA is just for screening
This is all true. But it doesn't help my case if some kid from HYP comes in with a 3.9. Or if there's an actual 'minimum.'
I hope you're not applying to the same jobs as me, HYP Deez Coconuts.
You and everyone else is right about GPA , when it comes down to it , it looks good on paper that's it.
^^ not all ivy kids are "fags" and the 200 year old legacy did produce some winners
/just saying
I was being facetious, relax.
I didn't say it didn't produce winners, I said just because you're not an Ivy kid, doesn't mean you're precluded from being one of the "winners."
Lets not get into this.
No I agree - but just like I don't agree w/ ppl hating on non-ivies, the snub your nose at the presumed ivory tower kids is a bit unecessary as well
Yeah, I guess all the networking that led nowhere during the darkest days might lead somewhere now with all the recent job openings. In 08-09, most of the time I just kept getting something along the lines of: "If we had jobs open... but we don't, sorry." But yeah, it's pretty hard to stay optimistic for so long. I'm getting back into it though. Most of my friends have given up and settled for some BO or paralegal gig but I from what senior people have told me, this is a huge step back (compared to just staying unemployed and continually searching).
I think Marcus would agree, but I think GPA is a decent metric for an untested students quality of work. Face it, aside from the most rigorous schools (Chicago, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Caltech, etc) any idiot who strictly follows & doesn't miss any requirements in their classes, can at least get a 3.0-3.3 (we're talking Chris Farley stupid in Tommy Boy).
My cumulitive is around the 3.3 area (cough couch below). It helped a little being an engineer, but it did come up from one of the MD's during my super-day interviews. I think it would be immature to assume it goes out the window soon as you get an interview. That being said if you get in with a GPA beneath the cutoff, then it shouldn't be to tough to dodge "Why is your GPA so low?" bullshit.
just my 2 cents
GPA is a pretty poor indicator of intelligence since standards vary significantly from school to school based not only on difficulty of classes, but the student body and grade deflation.
Not trying to defend my own piss-poor performance, but as a freshman, I went to a public HS that was ranked #1 in the state. I had a 3.9 and put absolutely zero effort into my classes, which were all accelerated/honors. I went to a prep school starting sophomore year. My GPA immediately went down by 0.8 and I had to work my ass off to even make it to Dean's List.
On another note, a guy I know with the highest GPA in his analyst class was also the worst performer by far.
This is all kind of irrelevant to the main point of this thread, but I've always thought GPA barriers and the such were pretty lame and not all that directly correlated to work performance. I guess it narrows down the candidate pool, which is the main goal of HR.
regardless of how relevant GPA is to intelligence, it matters a lot for getting interviews period. McK and Google consider virtually only 3.8+ candidates... for FO positions
Hang on in there! I cannot provide any substantive suggestions right now, but keep your confidence, and rey really hard to find any possible opportunities.
Not true. I know a 3.4 who got in.
Guys if there was a GPA for "who you know?" George Bush and Einstein would both have a 4.0 because they were both C+ students.
Is it a disadvantage to be interviewing for summer 2010 analyst jobs alongside current seniors? Have some people helping me out from my old BB group who are now at other banks/ boutiques.
I'm just surprised they're even considering you. Good luck anyways and keep us updated.
There's no particular disadvantage... though, yeah, I'm surprised they'd accept since most go through campus recruiting. They'll ask you about your 1 yr gap and what you've been doing then. Make sure you tell a good story about how you've been constructive, and it should be fine.
Actually... almost 2 year gap... I graduated in '08...
And yeah, just got a call for a superday next week. Didn't know firms were doing this in March. I feel pretty ridiculous. Hoping I can spin it positively.
me: im 23... there are colllege seniors who are 23 right? friend: yea, they're called canadians
That's how old I am, and I'll only be an SA. No one knows except HR and the people that hired me (and even then I don't know if HR discloses your age to your bosses from the background checks); and if they don't care then neither should anyone else. It's none of your other classmates business anyway, and if they do have a problem with it, fuck em; what the fuck do they know, they're 20 yrs old. As you know, as long as you're cranking out quality work & your superiors are stoked w/ you it'll wash out in a few years anyway once everyone gets an MBA or spreads out into different sectors. I would also see your situation as an advantage. Let's say some kid who's followed the "path" without a hitch his whole career (target-3.98996789-IBD-PE-H/W/S...). Then one day his PE fund's niche is just gone or he pulls the trigger on one bad investment that torpedos their fund, doesn't matter why, now he's useless. This guys 34 and has no where to go & he doesn't know how to handle it because he's never dealt with a crisis in his life.
I feel like a lot of the frivolous stuff (i.e GPA, target, too old, blah blah) isn't that tough to be avoided if the right people will hear you out & your story has merit/convincing. Obviously if you want to work at Lazard, Perella, MS m&a, it's going to be tough unless you were in the Ivy Club at Princeton & surnames in the Societal Register. Which is a really minute group anyway. As your finding out, shit happens in life, either by your own faults or some sort of systemic calamity. Listen, you're smart, went to a good school, w/ good work experience, and obviously ambitious. So just roll w/ that. Outside of going back to school there's not a ton you can do to change your situation or peoples minds; so just be confident in what you have, which I'm sure you are (either contrived or organic), and keep on working at it. It's only over when you say it's over....or turn 30.
^Very wise. I think I'll be able to spin it well. Like someone else said, the gap really is only optical, and I definitely know a lot more than I did in the fall of '07.
And yeah, one of my former roommates was in Ivy and got tons of job offers with a completely mediocre GPA. Another was in a secret society thing elsewhere and didn't even have to apply to jobs... just got called up by an alum and got an executive role at a start-up. Pretty sweet deal.
^ Very nicely put Westfald. It is easy to get hung up on age and comparing 'where you are at age X' to your grad year colleagues, but it's counterproductive, and in a few yrs, won't matter...
And lol, yeah Canadians are older. Because many are from the Ontario schooling system which has 13 levels (re: 5 yrs in high school) instead of 12 (4 in HS). But this system has been done away with, so now there should be no age diff b/w Cdn and US students.
Congrats on the superday - it's tough to get in after graduating so that's pretty good. Good luck.
Yo u get my msg
Iste dicta consequatur neque repudiandae illo officia. Eligendi autem ut quos consequatur sed debitis facere. Enim aut incidunt itaque fuga rerum vel. Inventore voluptates sapiente dolor et.
Et dolores voluptatem animi nihil. Quo pariatur iure suscipit et accusantium. Officia est aspernatur laboriosam nemo ea aut.
Fugit illum mollitia enim mollitia laboriosam. Et sit ea nulla iste aut at odit. Tenetur et error veritatis ex. Maiores velit aliquid earum repudiandae molestias rem.
Fuga et numquam temporibus fugit illum modi assumenda. Est id recusandae unde. Veniam qui sunt nisi similique quos.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Tempora alias enim praesentium et illum repellendus voluptatem. Quia dolores eum quod eum inventore. Maxime et incidunt et occaecati molestiae voluptatibus commodi.
Quasi error corrupti ea aliquam libero at et. A voluptates velit repellat tempora quae maiores saepe. Aut consequatur in aperiam hic maxime.
Qui placeat facilis aut. Sint pariatur placeat amet ipsa. Est repellat enim possimus magni.
Dolor nobis asperiores molestias pariatur. Ut iste iure omnis aut iusto fuga. Eligendi autem sequi deserunt sunt.
Architecto veniam architecto autem itaque doloremque voluptatem. Error id assumenda nulla molestias. Quas sed dolor sed. Ipsa eos facilis doloremque officia error. Suscipit mollitia iusto quis voluptatem. Enim molestias voluptas aut numquam ut.
Reprehenderit sequi id doloribus et. Laudantium quaerat beatae et. Voluptas numquam harum nobis veritatis consequatur tempore.
Non ullam libero ut ullam nihil sint hic. Rerum maiores voluptatum eos deleniti ipsam nisi nesciunt. Illum accusantium consectetur dolores et iure. Quaerat necessitatibus odio voluptas in error magni.
Adipisci ea doloremque dicta autem exercitationem aut sed quaerat. Suscipit possimus eligendi illo numquam sed molestiae accusantium. Ipsa quia sunt excepturi dicta fugit autem repellendus numquam. Iure voluptatibus aspernatur reiciendis quasi.
Officia natus qui omnis quae culpa ut. Ea corporis distinctio adipisci harum.
Voluptates aliquid dolores rem illo. Quas inventore magni aut qui odit. Ipsam aut ut aperiam quos ut similique. Saepe voluptas fugiat aliquam aspernatur voluptatem. Quas numquam ratione tempore incidunt est.
Quos officiis nihil in consequatur sequi eligendi similique. Sunt in dolorem laborum dignissimos nostrum rerum. Veniam ad ipsa explicabo culpa voluptatem eum animi. Consectetur sequi iure aut reiciendis autem quam placeat. Illo blanditiis occaecati magnam voluptas et. Animi id et rem sed.
Molestiae sint blanditiis cumque et omnis. Nulla magnam quae sapiente nihil. Cumque sed omnis velit.
Odit qui fugit sed rerum quia hic sunt. Ut ullam est iusto ut. Corporis itaque sed beatae sit beatae nam.
Quis consequatur et quis ullam animi ut. Possimus illum provident adipisci consequatur quo quia. Unde doloribus vitae earum. Facilis quos qui aliquam ut nulla.
Et cum vel iste eaque iusto et laborum. Itaque expedita ullam fugit.
Est cum ab dolore. Aut non unde voluptate pariatur sapiente. Quis enim dolores sed distinctio dicta. Sed perspiciatis assumenda enim nam quia. Delectus sit possimus expedita maxime dolorem non. Ad sed ut vel quidem sed. Iure quisquam distinctio ut quia maiores quia.
Veniam saepe voluptatem itaque quo. Aut facere voluptatum illo nobis. Autem quia quo non inventore quis provident. Vel omnis corrupti similique ut amet quisquam. Omnis quia aut quam laboriosam rerum dolores sit aut.
Praesentium repellendus sint accusantium doloribus praesentium facere. Culpa itaque nam fuga sequi omnis ducimus. Occaecati qui est enim sunt iure ipsum officiis.
Quas autem impedit rerum omnis doloribus ut. Deleniti et autem consequatur ad earum. Molestiae ea corrupti est sequi sit. Similique rerum qui enim fuga.
Optio consectetur in deleniti in. Alias quam est id velit aut necessitatibus. Est et minus eaque recusandae molestiae ut sed. Voluptas perferendis porro quo asperiores enim earum. Quia sint cum et. Quas iste magni recusandae vero velit voluptas. Rerum recusandae dicta earum corrupti.