Low Harvard Admission Rate
Came across this article this morning that argues that Harvard and over top schools should admit a bigger class with more lower-income students.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/harvard-an…
There are arguments for both sides and as someone that grew up in the lower middle class, I can understand where the author is coming from. However, I also find the argument that people paying full tuition to offset lower-income would not be okay. Even if I were to overlook that I am actually starting to think that it is not a good idea to have more lower-income students. Here is why:
My parents migrated here and built a life here. Growing up I did learn things like upper-class American mannerism, etc. After starting in finance, I had to step up and learn to fit in. I am one of the rare people that like change so it was not a big deal for me. At the same time, sometimes I feel like I am not myself. Another issue that I found was that it was hard for me to relate to some of the old friends who never changed/are still in the lower socio-economic status.
This got me thinking that even if you have lower-income kids in Ivy's. What's the guarantee that they will fit in / find a community. The most realistic scenario IMO is that the student body is divided, so the upper class hang out with the upper class and the lower with lower; kind of like prisons.
Undergrad education in the US is a joke so really the value add of universities is the relationship, network, and connection with others. If student bodies are divides then the value add is gone and many kids might never be forced to change since there are enough others with a similar background, regret changing, or simply be an overlooked group in life post-graduation (in terms of having a network to get a good job, etc.)
I want to be clear that I am not trying to turn this into a diversity discussion, there are already enough on this site. This is more about hearing about others' thoughts on the value of colleges, connecting with people from different socio-economic backgrounds, and college experiences related to the dynamics I described (or any that oppose it).
some valid points there.
People may self-segregate if they want, nothing you or I can do about it. I have worked and lived in many different countries, speak multiple languages natively or fluently and you would imagine that my family or circle of friends are super diverse. They are not. Even if I wanted to have every race, every economic background or any disability in my group of friends, who says that the other side wanted to achieve the same goal?
Giving poorer families or people of color or immigrants (or anyone else) a shot at a certain educational institution is trying to give them a chance they otherwise wouldn't have. Without a personal connection, a friend in high places or certain schools beforehand they would never be admitted. And that is what these schools are trying to improve on. They believe that everyone in a class would learn and improve if they had a broader range of students. Seeing the same world through different eyes/languages/cultures is sometimes incredibly helpful.
I also don't believe that integrating immigrants should mean they would forget their own race or culture. The opposite actually, with moving to a Western nation they would ideally gain another home, another culture and another set of values.
here is a real world example: I had a college friend who was hard of hearing. She taught me a few words in ASL and until this day I can sign basic aspects in ASL. It isn't something that I really needed or wanted, but it can be very helpful and showed me to see the world through her eyes.
This is exactly what these schools that are wealthier than God should be doing--using their immense resources to expand the pool of people they admit. However, I'm very skeptical that it's something they will do or will do without a fight. The most prestigious schools are prestigious because of their exclusivity. If Harvard, et al decreases its exclusivity, waters down the wealth of the student body, and (in light of the likely move toward eliminating standardized testing) lowers the overall raw intelligence of its student body, its prestige will fall. Not immediately--not in 12 months--but over time the brand will be tarnished.
There is a reason there have been no serious talks (yet) at Yale of changing the name, even though the Yale founder had a pretty terrible relationship with slavery. The Yale brand is everything to the students and alumni and their parents. When the progressive beliefs hit too close to home, you're going to see either intense pushback or refusal to acknowledge. Frankly, these elite schools have been very progressive for 60 years or so and yet we have not seen any real move toward democratizing admission. There is a reason.
Your counter argument is hilarious.
The wealth divide already exists at ivies. The ultra wealthy students will go rent a yacht for a party and if you can’t put up the $1,200 to help split the cost, you can’t come. Can’t afford the hotel in aspen for spring break? Then you can’t go. They price you out of their social group.
Outside of the ultra wealthy doing ridiculous stuff like that, people aren’t dividing up by their parents income level. Adding more lower income people would create a more inclusive environment because the ultra wealthy people would be a smaller % of the social scene.
Agreed
There are no guarantees in life - and finding a community certainly isn't the outlier here. Don't shield kids from the real world, god knows we all are screwed up enough from that viewpoint. I am a firm believer that higher education should seek to admit a broadly diverse body of students (using the term 'diverse' to cover all aspects of life). That's geography, class, race, gender, viewpoints, brainpower, weights, heights... whatever floats your boat. It might be tough - but kids need to learn how to interact with people across the spectrum.
I dispute the idea that being a lower income student at Harvard is anything akin to a prison. That's your problem if you feel that way as a student. You have world class facilities, education, professors and environment to support you. Are you likely to hang out with a bunch of rich kids from New Canaan? Doubtful - but do you really want to? Does that even matter? If you make even a dozen friends across the spectrum - isn't that a good thing?
Moreover, education is still a huge tailwind for social mobility. The net positive that someone going to Harvard is hugely important - especially if you are coming from a lower socio economic background. The network you will build, the alumni that will help you out, the resources at your disposal - I'll take that any day, even if the trade off is my social scene isn't perfectly integrated.
I mean, as someone who went to a top school like that, it already pretty much is that way. All of the rich kids know each other and hang out together from day one. Sometimes there will be one or two poor or middle-class kids thrown into their group who are really interesting, different, or sociable. For the most part, the poor kids at top schools don't really want to mingle with the wealthier ones though. The low-income students join the club for first-generation, low-income students, usually a motley crew of purple-haired social justice warriors and socially awkward people, and are pretty content there. If you want to call it segregation, then sometimes it's self-segregation. I'd say it's only unfortunate for the kids who are social and hyper-aware of social class, because they're the ones that actually notice, or care about, this divide. Also, I don't really get the prison analogy. People of a similar social class are always attracted to each other, since they have more in common and similar budgets for activities and vacations, like some posters above me talked about.
Love the presumption that first-generation students are socially awkward and the rich kids are fucking sickkkk
You might not want this topic to lead to a discussion about diversity but I have a feeling that is where the topic is going to go. It is 1:45 eastern time. Let's see how long it takes. I hope I am wrong.
ASIANS ARE GETTING SCRWED IN COLLEGE ADMISSIONS BY AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
11 minutes! Nice work.
Yeah but the sad reality is no one gives a shit about Asians. The thinking in this country is you can be racist towards them and it's ok which is incredibly messed up
People already divide up by their parents income level for the most part in college. Not explicitly IMO but it happens nonetheless.
- Wealthy international kids (separated by region - LA / Europe / Middle East / China were the big ones)
- Wealthy prep school kids (Exeter, Andover, etc)
- Upper middle class (pretty much my friend group)
- Lower middle class / URM
I don't think most people consciously self selected into only interacting with that core group 80% of the time, it's just something that happens naturally as you go towards things you recognize / are most comfortable with. And also longevity / value of connections. So admitting lower income students can help with real world outcomes (i.e. having Harvard on your resume) but not quite as much as you might think.
Source: Went to an Ivy and recognized this behavior, have had conversations about this with friends
This entire behavior isn't just the case in higher education, it is anywhere you go IRL. it was like this in high school, it was like this at every work place I worked at. The divide is sometimes very obvious and strict (lunch time at high school, or look what people your friends are dating or marrying), and sometimes more subtle (ie who gets invited to a colleagues' wedding)
The groups are almost always divided by race, religion, and social family background/upbringing. And I have also seen this in Europe as well, not just in the US.
And this doesn't mean people don't like diversity or they look down upon others, they may seek familiarity and common interests.
RIP my future kid's chance of getting in
VANDERBILT is 6% this year
wtf
The Author is really reaching I think in some sections. Like do we have actual evidence theses colleges are in this much of a bind, where the larger portion of the class is coming from alumni children vs low-income students. Those are the stats I would like to see. I thought all Ivy schools offer crazy financial aid.
The comment on Canada is awful. Those 3 schools may take 150k students, but maybe 5% of them are in prestigious super competitive programs which get the best resources/professors/recruiting. The rest of the world is elitist too. That 5% class portion still would all seriously kill/attempt to get into an Ivy in the USA too. Ivy schools are world reknown institutions not top national schools in just the USA. So comparison is awful.
Lastly, isnt the “increased class sizes” the issue where top US state schools have to juggle all the instate/out-state problems.
Truly think what Lebron is doing at grassroots is way better than the Author’s.
Vel omnis quibusdam temporibus ex corrupti asperiores impedit. Laudantium omnis similique aut quod odio perspiciatis reiciendis odit. Aliquid minus qui iure nobis dolores qui. Assumenda a occaecati odio corrupti animi laborum. Officiis rerum rerum corporis non id. Sunt est recusandae odit est mollitia.
Dignissimos recusandae dolorem error voluptatum. Debitis asperiores vero similique cum. Et at quisquam quo illo non sed odit et.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...