Madiba

Haven't seen any dicussion on the passing of Mandela and the subsequent news / coverage.

Anyone follow this? Arguably one of the most important stories from the last few weeks and a great time to reflect on leadership and the impact such an individual can have on the world. I realize the man was not perfect and there are things you can fault him for, but in the context of history and relative to his achievements and sacrifices, the good he did far outweighs any grievances some may hold against him.

There is only so much one man can do. Given the current state in South Africa, it's sad to see those who followed after him have not continued in his footsteps. South Africa still has many problems, but Mandela acheived major fundamental change and set an example for his country and the rest of the world.

It's rare to witness such leadership and it's exactly that kind of leadership that history books are made of. Our generation was lucky enough to have witnessed at least some of it first-hand. So if anyone is interested, it's a complicated story and a complicated history, but it's well worth following and reflecting on

 
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I refrained from saying this ealier out of respect for the recently deceased.

While Mandela does deserve some credit for adopting pacifism and stressing integration of a racially fragmented nation, I personally feel that he gets way too much credit.

Mandela's policy of racial acceptance was really nothing more than a pragmatic approach to black leadership of South Africa. Had he not been as keen on integration as he had been, it's unlikely he would have ever received the international support he did and probably would've spent the remainder of his days in prison. Furthermore, whites in South Africa still had a lot of power (and guns) at the time of his taking over, so preaching anything other than an "accept everybody" line would have simply plunged the country into civil war. Again, he deserves credit for having averted said civil war, but only credit for not being a total moron (unlike Robert Mugabe).

At the end of the day he's still an avowed Marxist with a soft face and lots of popularity among rockstars and rappers. South Africa has an astronomically high HIV infection rate, a sluggish economy, and is STILL victim to racial stratification in wealth (with light-skinned 'coloureds' now having risen to the level of caucasians). I'm sure he's a nice guy and he know's how to handle a dicey situation, but the amount of foot worship this guy has received has been ridiculous.

"Yes. Money has been a little bit tight lately, but at the end of my life, when I'm sitting on my yacht, am I gonna be thinking about how much money I have? No. I'm gonna be thinking about how many friends I have and my children and my comedy albums."
 

The major difference being that no other 'reform' in the rest of Africa took such pragmatic approaches. I don't care whether he did it for pragmatic reasons or 'ethical' reasons, the point is he went for reconciliation and was largely successful at it. He would have been within his rights to hold something more akin to a war crimes tribunal but instead held a truth and reconciliation commission. To your point, it was pragmatic, but effective...

Yes, HIV is astronomically high and you can blame him for not speaking up earlier. Keep in mind the guy did miss the whole sexual revolution thing while he was in prison for 27 years, so might have been difficult topic. Not an excuse though, and eventually he did speak up and confronted the acting president at the time. Which brings me to the point that the acting leadership at the time bore the greatest responsibility (Thabo Mbeki), since he refused any help and denied the link between HIV and aids in the first place. Had Mandela served a second term, I think there would have been action much sooner on the topic of aids.

I disagree that he was still an avowed Marxist. I think he looked to all systems, and he himself stated that he had particular respect for British and US institutions. Gotta keep in mind it that communists were the only ones offering a helping hand initially and that it was back in the day when the soviet union actually had power. To his credit, he didn't go Marxists and left the economy largely open and as a capialist economy. He continued the country closer to the western forms of government. I think he was incredibly pragmatic, and I mean that as a compliment. The Marxist angle comes from the fact that you need some re-distribution to lift up the extreme imbalances created by apartheid, but by no means did he still consider it the best form by the end of his life. You can blame him for still being friends with Castro and Ghadaffi, but they supported his cause when others did not. Not to excuse him of that, but it does give some context. And again, he never went in that direction, he willingly stepped down after one term to set that example (but yes a moral leader he should have spoken out against those crimes of humanity)

I think these complications make it so much more interesting precisely because he wasn't a saint, but yet the things he did were largely good and resulted in positive change.

 

Also, it was pretty cool that he wore a springboks jersey for the rugby world cup and that he had tea with the widow of the architect of apartheid. He didn't just preach reconciliation, he practiced it. Whether it was purely pragmatic or not is largely irrelevant. It set the example

I read somewhere he donated 1/3 of his salary as president to building a new school or something. The current president meanwhile has been accused of multiple rape charges and has spent roughly $25MM on his private residence from government coffers / taxpayer money.

It's hard not to give him credit compared to the many other possible outcomes that could have taken place

 

Right. And everyone seems to forget the bombings against civilians that he orchestrated as head of MK ("Spear of the Nation"), which was nothing more than a militarized terrorist organization. The killed hundreds of civilians at restaurants, bars, banks, shopping malls, even a rugby stadium.

The man accomplished a lot in office, but you can't have a conversation about the contributions of the man without discussing the reasons why he was rightfully imprisoned.

 

global macro - the fact that he took the "pragmatic" approach is important. It means he's just another politician, not some demigod deserving of the massive cult-like worship ceremonies he's received. I'm not denying that he did something that was pretty incredible, but we're tending to forget his massive dark side (including wrapping tires around the necks of boer farmers and dousing them in kerosene, then lighting them on fire).

Finally, the media's worship of him has done nothing but elucidate their left-wing bias. Augusto Pinochet, while by no means a benign leader, turned chile into a latin american powerhouse (and eventually stepped down for a democratic regime). When he died, the media couldn't forgive him for the couple thousand marxist terrorists he killed.

"Yes. Money has been a little bit tight lately, but at the end of my life, when I'm sitting on my yacht, am I gonna be thinking about how much money I have? No. I'm gonna be thinking about how many friends I have and my children and my comedy albums."
 

I don't disagree and think the complicated history of the man needs further scrutiny. There was a stated objective of targeting infrastructure for bombings and doing more 'sabotage' then terrorism, but MK did continue on to essentially target civilians and did basically act like a terrorist organization. There seems to be some question on how much Mandela was involved at that time, given that he was locked up. We should remember there were other terrorist organizations as well. I haven't looked at the evidence close enough but I am digging into it. My interest in the subject was only recently sparked again due to all the coverage.

As far as I can tell, his objective always seemed to be to minimize violence and use it strategically against the oppressive government. I am for strategic sabotage aimed at infrastructure and government / military under those conditions, but against any sort of civilian targeting of any kind. If I was to change my opinion of him, it would be because of evidence of his involvement in civilian killings. I do find it problematic that he did not speak out against it, and that is a solid mark against him, something which has not really been mentioned in the media.

I believe the tire wrapping was more of a Winnie thing and I don't know how much he was involved in that, she seems like she went the opposite direction of him in many aspects. But I am interested in evidence either way.

Pinochet is not even a comparison. Sure he gave up control, after 17 years. He also suppressed all opposition while he was in power. Both of these are marked differences. Pinochet did not even recieve a state funeral, testament to how is own country viewed him.

Fair to say Mandela's history is not all clean, but seems to me what he accomplished was still quite amazing. Lesser men would have not have been able to pull that off, as clearly seen in the rest of Africa.

 
globalmacro:

Pinochet is not even a comparison. Sure he gave up control, after 17 years. He also suppressed all opposition while he was in power. Both of these are marked differences. Pinochet did not even recieve a state funeral, testament to how is own country viewed him.

Pinochet didn't receive a state funeral because a socialist prime minister was in power at the time of his death. Most chileans were pissed by this and Barchelet got a lot of flack for it. If you go to Chile, even many leftists praise Pinochet because they realize that, even if he had been oppressive Allende would have been worse. Regardless, I am more focused on outcomes, and the state Chile is in is far more envious than that of South Africa.

"Yes. Money has been a little bit tight lately, but at the end of my life, when I'm sitting on my yacht, am I gonna be thinking about how much money I have? No. I'm gonna be thinking about how many friends I have and my children and my comedy albums."
 

I stand corrected as it relates to Pinochet's funeral then. Agreed Chile is in a more envious state. Mandela brought political reform, seems like subsequent leaders need to spend some time on economic reform. Either way, South Africa would likely have gained if Mandela served a 2nd term, but that's speculation only in hindsight compared to the likes of Mbeki and Zuma

 

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"Yes. Money has been a little bit tight lately, but at the end of my life, when I'm sitting on my yacht, am I gonna be thinking about how much money I have? No. I'm gonna be thinking about how many friends I have and my children and my comedy albums."

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