Math major but can’t code
Hey all I’m a math major interested in getting a job in the finance industry. The downside is that I can’t code and don’t have a lot of time left to learn how to code (although I could take an intro coding class next semester). Are there any careers for me in finance?
Happy New Year to all as well.
Finance high school teacher
There are plenty of jobs in finance that don't require coding. Some examples: investor relations, project management, qa/testing, back/middle office, fundamental PM/analyst etc. Taking that intro to programming could be a good idea as well.
Learn Python Code. It is super simple and straight forward. You can learn the basics in one or two days.
That’s the intro class I plan on taking
You are really limiting yourself.
what kind of math? unless you did pure math i find it hard to believe that you haven't taken any courses that required you to learn to code...
There’s no applied math degree at some schools
Some classes do require stat packages like SAS/R. But my coding will be elementary at best. Many of my math major friends have been developing apps and such since high school/ USACO Gold/Plat etc. So I can’t really claim I can code when I will be given at best a brief exposure.
Programming experience itself is not that important. Most top tech companies and quant shops look for strength in algorithmic thinking, which is more mathematical than it is programming. So if you can, take a course design & analysis of algorithms and maybe one on data structures (and learn Python along the way).
Coding in and of itself is only useful in that it allows you to process large data sets quickly and efficiently. Those with poor coding skills can just brute force things in Excel, often with the help of various data services, but as a math major without finance chops, good luck getting a firm to pay the ~$100k that Bloomberg, Factset and M* Direct licences cost, along with giving you the 3+ years you need to be decent at them.
I have shitty coding skills from a beginner Python class, and a C++ class from 2001. I'm also going to only classify my Excel as OK. I'm leaning hard on an intrinsic knowledge of the data and a great nose for Bulls--t. I'll also throw myself pretty close to the top of the list at my multi-thousand person firm in M*, and above average in Bloomberg. (there's a "look at me" aspect of the keyboard, I've seen many who can't operate the thing) My FactSet knowledge is hit-or-miss, although we don't have too many licencees there.
Honestly, your biggest issue is going to be proving to people that you know finance, presuming you want a role in investments, which it sounds like is your plan. My calculus also sucks, but finance is all about stats. Can you talk to me intelligently about kurtosis and skewness and how they will apply to investment outcomes? Can you find where there's a flag, or somebody is just BSing you by using the Sharpe Ratio incorrectly?
I passed. the SIE exam. Will it help to show interest?
I'll admit that I haven't taken the SIE because I was grandfathered in by being fully licenced and Chartered when it was implemented. (I guess I'm old)
The short answer is no. It will show interest, but it won't show competency. The SIE is designed for making sure that the marketing and accounting guys at financial firms aren't completely clueless. It's not a zero value proposition, but it is not a large value-add either.
Where do you want to go? If it's investments either with a public AM shop (like me) or in PE then getting your CFA Charter is going to be the big moneymaker, although it is a multi-year commitment, (Seriously, a MBA is quicker) but even the progress of signing up for level 1 shows commitment. If you're leaning more towards sales or being a FA then the CFP or CIMA are good options. Watch out for third rate designations like the CETF which will just get you laughed at.
Hey what UG class in stats do you think would be useful? Like a stats theory class? I can take some as electives.
I'm raking my brain trying to think what stats classes I took in undergrad. I think the closest I got was EC4-whatever Econometrics with a SAS lab junior year, and maybe a basic 300 level stats class. (IIRC the teacher loathed me in that class. If I could remember her name I'd send her a xmas card with my business card in it as a F*** you) The CFA curriculum was better in cementing my theoretical knowledge, but even compared to my peer Charterholders, I'm good at smelling out BS. I think part of this is from spending years in the wilderness dealing with the worst of retail FAs, and the rest is from having a good grasp of how things just work conceptually. I couldn't pass Bayesian stats to save my life, and my mathematical skills are mediocre, but I'm very good at seeing how various rules will alter the overall output.
Hey man, Im learning Python right now. I would say you need to consider what you want to focus on to really give you a proper answer. Do you want to learn Python, Javascript, C++, etc. DO you want to focus on data science, data engineering, etc? Will you construct code for advance stat analysis? Without knowing the following I would say start wit Edx and when you are ready to drop some coin transition to Data Camp or Panda. Thats the route I am taking based on some guidance from seasoned coders. Hope it helps
I have DataCamp but it’s mediocre because you don’t write code from scratch -only minor edits to the programs. Even projects are similar.
Once you learn one language it's easier to learn others. They have the same fundamental principles (for most of the major languages). Python is probably most useful in your case. I would recommend C++ after Python. There's tons of free content online, you can just watch some YouTube videos. MIT has Open Courseware which is more or less the same concept of Youtube videos.
Obviously there are online videos and I’ve seen some of them. But knowing concepts isn’t really enough... Most of my friends have been doing their own side projects since high school. But then again they are also coding until midnight. I have two part time jobs in addition to being a FT student so I don’t have that sort of time on my hands.
Learn R - its more practical for computation and its made for people who aren't programmers. Python is only useful for creating and cleaning spreadsheets.
Python can do a lot more than that but I've heard R is very useful. It's a language I don't know personally.
python can do a lot but it doesn't do computation very well (compared to R).
analyst___apu This is classic misinformation. Python is objectively the most dynamic and capable programming language, there is a reason it is the most popular globally. R has much more strict use cases. Im new to coding and even I know this...
@Malta Monkey" is 100% correct
i agree python is very dynamic but its strength is its ability to act as the 'glue' between different systems. R on the other hand is made specifically for data analysis and gives you the ability to express mathematical concepts easily (get more done with less code).
This is wrong.
nah. its right.
Corporate finance jockey here who is learning analytics through the online GT program.
Take the GT sequence on Python over at edx. Then take the ML for Trading course on Udacity (I took this class for credit last semester; seriously, the lectures are the same save for three "enrichment" lectures you won't get and the homeworks are publicly available).
But...if you can't talk stats, you're screwed. That's why I'm doing the full-on MS degree (post MBA). Has improved my BS detector 1000x (if not more).
Are you doing the full MS CS from GT or Data Science or another MS degree?
MS in Analytics -- similar, but more focused on the math pieces than pure coding
... Why do people say on this site that a math major is viewed more highly than a stats major in high finance ? If I had known stats was this crucial I would have done stats instead. I will still have a couple stat electives but obviously it’s not the same.
Hot take: Stats are just practical, applied math skills
Think about it -- all of your optimization and simulation procedures (which come from the Stats world) still require your ability to differentiate and integrate.
Linear regression, dimension reduction, etc...? Don't leave home without your LinAlg
Can you show me where to find the hw for the ML trading class? Thanks
There are non coding positions in the MO derivative valuation space (others on the team will do it) but they typically want a combination of very strong accounting and finance skills + CFA on top of your math. Learning to code would be your easiest and smartest route as it would open doors to quant positions as well as the MO Valuation positions without having the advanced background in accounting.
There are free coding certs out there and coding is something where recruiters and hiring managers actually just want someone who can do it rather then care about the school degree (outside of GT positions) at least imo.
Free coding carts? Can you explain more
edX is the greatest place for starters. If you get a professional cert in Python you can post it to your LinkedIn. Getting one played a significant role in getting me my job in the derivative valuation space at a top BB and also got me into the masters degree Omscs program at GATech despite a non tech background. Simply watching YouTube videos on quant models, pandas and statistics will put you in a great spot during the interview.
Messaged you
Surprised at the seriousness of the answers here.
OP: very few finance jobs require coding. Learning to code will open up a few extra doors but most of them are open already. Don't learn to code just because you think its necessary for finance, that would be incorrect and a mistake.
I think coding is important looking forward and has very little opportunity cost (essentially, just time to get decent)
Agreed. Just addressing OP's apprehension along the lines of "can I still make it?"
I still think I’m going to try edX as recommend above. I’ve always noticed that the finance positions that ask for experience in a programming language have like 15-20 applicants on LinkedIn as opposed to your traditional finance analyst position which is 200+ applicants. It makes sense since most of my programming buddies think FAANG is the dream.
Wonder what the new acronym will be once Netflix stops growing.
BirdoInBoston PatrickStar120 and others who recommended edX computing in python. So i purchased the first part of the class (Units 1 and 2). It's not that I'm not learning stuff but the class seems pretty slow paced. Like I"m in unit 2 and its basic variable assignment. Among 4 courses only 5 units are covered... does the difficulty escalate quickly?
GA Techs course was very thorough so it does start off slow, though their detailed breakdown helped me a lot in some quant interview for all the technical questions they had for me back around the time I was taking the course (not that I got an offer from them though lol). It gets pretty hard in the last two units. The third because they combine all you have learned to start doing things like building program based encryption programs and the fourth because they jump into recursive programming and optimal algorithmic sorting functions. I’ve found learning machine learning and utilization of libraries for things like data frame manipulations to be easy compared to what I was doing in the Python course, so I would say it sets you up really well.
Same boat, still in school studying pure math and finance, interning in S&t with basically no coding skills. I picked up matlab and vba quickly and started python. I’d recommend building a base in a couple languages and it’ll grow on the job.
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