For S&T, Help Me Rank These Schools
Ok, I am a career-switcher interested in jumping over to S&T after B-School. I am applying to the top finance schools, but also through the Consortium. My dilemma lies in "ranking" my order of preference on the application. For those already in S&T or those with knowledge of S&T recruiting in B-School, which of the best Consortium schools have the best placement in S&T outside of NYU.
*Assumptions
- Career-Switcher w/ non-finance background
- I can get into any school below but can't get into the top programs (Wharton, Booth, etc.)
- I care nothing about fit, school stereotypes, B-School location etc.
- I'm only interested in S&T (and consequently concerned with S&T recruiting)
- Order of preference for post-MBA placement in S&T (NYC > Chicago/SF > Houston > Elsewhere)
- Not interested in MSF
1.) NYU
If you had to pick from below for S&T recruiting 2.) . . . . 6.) How would you rank them?
University of California, Berkeley, Haas School of Business
University of California, Los Angeles, UCLA Anderson School of Management
Carnegie Mellon University, Tepper School of Business
Cornell University, The Johnson School
Dartmouth College, Tuck School of Business
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, Stephen M. Ross School of Business
New York University, Leonard N. Stern School of Business
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Kenan-Flagler Business School
University of Southern California, Marshall School of Business
The University of Texas at Austin, McCombs School of Business
University of Virginia, Darden School of Business
University of Wisconsin-Madison, Wisconsin School of Business
Yale University, Yale School of Management
cmu
simple. look at career reports (every bschool website has one) and see how many go into Capital Markets/S&T. The secondary filter is looking at courses offered at the bschool. Look to see which has the most technical finance/econ/stat courses (e.g. dartmouth would be low on this count). The last filter is name prestige.
The question is how much weight to put on each (already subjective) filter. But no one person can answer that. You'd have to take a poll. Still I'm guessing the poll would yield many similar results.
The weakest ones are probably wisconsin and texas since they're so low on both the first and third count (though wisconsin is good for the second count) One would expect cornell and cmu to pass all three filters well (but cornell doing better than CMU on the second count since CMU's MFE program really cannibalizes S&T opportunities away from the MBA [moreso than those at nyu or cornell]). And yes, NYU would be number one.
you prob won't get great ST recruiting from Texas, Wisconsin, UNC, USC, or UCLA
the others sure
houston s&t is 90% UT , Texas A&M
@ Seigniorage That actually was my one of my first areas of research for these schools, however I got stuck with some schools because they lump S&T & IB under "Investment Banking." Thanks for the thoughts on CMU's MFE program, I saw the same in their employment reports. S&T placement out of the MBA was This group will still get looks, but I will have to hustle way harder for S&T than IB
So why arent you looking at master in finance degrees for s&t? princeton's program places nearly everyone in s&t.
@bcbunker1
Good question...I am assuming that if I can get into a Wharton/Chicago/Columbia/NYU, that the pros of attending B.School (networking, experience, "MBA" brand) would outweigh the placement pros of a top MSF like Princeton/CMU.
If I do well on the GMAT, I have a strong enough app/story to be competitive and hopefully get $$$ (not being cocky, I have a few friends currently in top B.Schools now, they all have said I just have to nail the GMAT).
Your question definitely raises a good point...I think it is going to be best for me to apply to the top B. Schools round 1, and then consider applying to the top MSF programs along with the "Second tier" Finance schools round 2.
.........
Dude, you get an MSF/MFE to work in trading, not an MBA.
MBA might be helpful for sales, research, or long-term asset management, but you really want the tools an MFE gives you- stoch. calculus, pricing models, and risk management, among other things.
Check out the MSFM program at Chicago and the MSF program at Princeton. Carnegie-Mellon also offers a combined MSCF/MBA program if you insist on getting an MBA, but you really don't need one to be a trader or even run your own hedge fund. Ken Griffith started Citadel up out of a college dorm room while he was getting a Comp. Sci undergrad. Princeton has a 90%+ placement rate into S&T and research at BBs and hedge funds, for instance; I think roughly 60-70% wind up in some sort of trading position.
Meanwhile, a Harvard or NYU MBA would struggle to make it into trading at the BB I work for- though it is doable. One of my old friends from analytics got a sales & trading internship at DB out of the Wharton MBA program. That said, the guy is a quantitative genius with five years of experience pricing corporate bonds and I think he would have been a shoo-in for trading at GS or JPM had he gotten an MFE. I'm not sure how much the MBA really helped him- I think this was a job he could have gotten without it.
If you're going to make a run for trading and insist on getting an MBA rather than an MFE, I would consider a more quantitative or finance-related MBA- Wharton, CMU, or Chicago, and take as many math-heavy courses as you can. This advice applies to research, risk management, and asset management as well. If you want to be a consultant or a banker, aim for Northwestern or Harvard. If you want to do anything that involves pricing assets or managing risk in the process, you really want to aim more quantitative.
Colleges for S&T /Quant Finance (Originally Posted: 07/02/2013)
From your perspective, what colleges are most represented at top S&T groups and hedge funds, prop shops, etc.?
Just curious at how it would differ from the distribution at standard IBD groups.
A lot of the top targets are well-represented at all of these places so here's my point of view on what I feel like are "exceptions" to the rule. In BB S&T, I saw that Georgetown and Notre Dame were heavily represented, sometimes more so than HYPS. See here (//www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/the-slow-mediocritization-of-the-bulge-bra…) for a possible explanation. I'm not too sure about hedge funds, but a lot of the top prop shops seem heavily weighted toward the more technical targets, such as MIT, UChicago (might be due to location), Berkeley, Stanford, etc. since that's where that industry is going these days.
In BB S&T, wharton/harvard/princeton/nyu stern/duke/dartmouth/columbia/mit were all reasonably well-represented.
For top prop shops, they lean towards the strong math/cs programs: mit, harvard, princeton, carnegie mellon, stanford, berkeley. I have noticed that jump and tower lean toward stanford while getco and hudson river lean towards mit and harvard.
I'd imagine CMU would be up there as well
For what it's worth, HRT doesn't hire undergrads anymore
Interesting. I wonder why that's the case.
They used to recruit aggressively at harvard and mit undergrad.
Anyone else?
Best represented undergrad schools in trading (Originally Posted: 05/09/2013)
I'm including both BB S&T and prop trading. This is obviously purely anecdotal, based on what i have seen during 4 years in the industry.
cmu is very strong for s&t. i would assume chicago and booth are also strong but i don't have any particular experience working with students from either school so I cannot comment.
cmu tepper is a quant program, with serious students and a difficult curriculum. by the way, fit is important. if you are a non-quant, yet you attend a quant school, you're going to have a difficult time in recruiting. why? because recruiters are coming to your school looking for the "stereotype", and if you don't "fit" that stereotype, you might not have an easy time landing in your ideal role.
career switching is difficult in this market and you will need all the help you can get.
btw i don't know why sales always gets mixed up with trading. if you want to be a trader, you will need serious quant skills. if you want to be in sales, it pays to have a nice haircut and be able to speak intelligently about a wide range of topics. totally different requirements.
Kind of surprised Stern has such high representation. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if CM was a bit higher, either.
Also surprised by Stern, I thought their ugrad was considered 'semi-target'
I've run into tons of sternies at BB trading desks. S&T is probably stern's strongest area, at both the undergrad and MBA levels.
UIUC has got to be up there based on their large Chicago presence.
Ah, forgot about them. UIUC cs grads do very well with chicago prop shops. Illini will probably kill me for not mentioning his alma mater.
Which school for S&T? (Originally Posted: 04/07/2013)
Hey everyone,
I just got accepted into University of Washington (top 6 for CS, but didn't get direct admit into CS) and University of Waterloo, which I hear places well for S&T in Canada, for Arts and Business Co-op.
I want to remain in the US, but move towards the East. To anyone who knows anything about either or both of these schools, which school is best for S&T, or banking/finance in general? How long would it take me to transfer from Arts & Business into a CS major at Waterloo?
I aim to get a computer science and economics double major.
Thanks!
Tepper's most quantlike program is the MSCF program. In reality, a quant program is going to involve a Math, Physics, Stats, Finance, Econ, or maybe Engineering PhD- a CS PhD from CMU with a dissertation involving finance would probably be CMU's "quant program".
If you are at Tepper and want to go into trading, it may be a good idea to seriously consider the MSCF-MBA or financial engineering concentrations. In your resume, make sure you emphasize financial engineering and de-emphasize "MBA".
CMU is a great school, but you don't have an MFE program unless you spend about 12 courses covering mathematics, economics, and pricing models. I don't think Tepper's MBA program alone has that- you really need the MSCF.
The newly hired trader behind me had a Wisconsin Finance undergr (he also spent 2 years at KBW before getting here, though.) The school arguably also has one of the best finance PhD programs in the country when it comes to risk management.There currently isn't great ST recruiting at those schools, but state school representation has improved (or "disimproved" depending on your perspective :D) pretty dramatically over the last 18 months. It's a competitive market; the smartest kid out of Harvard is going to a hedge fund and the smartest kid out of 10,000 student/graduating class Wisconsin is smarter (and cheaper) than the second smartest kid out of Harvard.
we aren't talking about Wisconsin undergrad though- I know that it has a good ugrad business program. The Wisconsin MBA is not really that great though, and certainly will not open up many doors for S&T.
Wisconsin does have a good Masters in Quantitative Finance though, which does place in S&T.
I would say you have a much better chance of getting into S&T from Waterloo. I transferred from UW my freshman year - very little relevant OCR and poor networking opportunities. It's a top school for CS, but great if you want to work in the tech industry, not for Finance.
Thanks for the feedback. I've been considering transferring out of UW as well if I went there. How hard is it to transfer for a target around the East Coast, provided GPA is good? Do they look at high school grades? And, if you don't mind, where did you transfer to?
Thanks!
go to h20loo
Arts and Business at Waterloo has very poor placement overall (finance included) -- it's usually the Math (particularly Math/Business) or Engineering students that get most of the top jobs. You can apply to transfer faculties after your 1st year I think but your odds will be against you coming from Arts (most of the transfers to/from Math/CS take place with the Engineering faculty).
Thanks monkeyspells, that's enough for me to decide. That is extremely good to hear, I was actually pretty close to choosing UWaterloo. I'm committing to UW, and hoping to transfer to a better school in the East.
Software engineering at Waterloo with a minor in math will get a great look for CAD S&T banks.
Yes so is MIT and Berkeley. I don't think the OP is getting into any of those. Transferring into Soft Eng is near impossible, unless you are like coming from ECE and have a crazy average.
Arts and Business at Waterloo is a joke major. Also no way you can transfer into CS. At a minimum you would need to get into a general maths program and take calc1,calc2,cs into courses, lingear algebra, classical algebra. Basically impossible from Arts Faculty.
Also I do not think you could transfer into CS without a 75+ math average in the above, yah it ain't easy.
I think your AIM is bit higher than what is realistically possible.
Because I took the two year IB Physics course at my school instead of physics and chemistry courses, I couldn't even apply for the computer science programs at most schools I applied for (UBC, Waterloo, etc), which have chemistry as a prerequisite.
However, I did get into University of Toronto's computer science program. I'm not going there, but how good is it for S&T?
Sorry bud you are misinformed, but no CS program in Canada looks at physics/chemistry, seen many a folk who are math genuis at Uwaterloo who had low english, science marks they really just care about your math average and how good your high school calc/algebra were. So not sure why you did not apply... Math average, winning competitions like Euclid things they care about.
UofT has a good program, just less recruiting then Uwaterloo no real co-op program as well. Also its the downtown area of a major city versus a college town and etc. Chicago and Cali shops goto Uwaterloo, while UofT you are going to have to fight it out for Canadian banks which ain't easy.
@marcellus_wallace I applied a little over a month ago, so I know that some require chemistry. I am doing it through IB Diploma, so it may differ, but Waterloo requires a IB Chemistry score of 5 (for computer engineering, my bad; I couldn't apply to CS because I didn't take the higher level math) and UBC requires IB Chemistry.
As for UT, I also heard that their undergraduate business school (Rotman) is a joke. No chance I'm going to UT. $600 application fee for Ontario schools.... at least I get to feel good from receiving acceptance letters.
Everyone says go to waterloo engineering for s&t....but what kind of engineering at UW places best?
Soft/Comp/Elec/Mechantronics/Sys Design.
Then again, he was doing convertible arb back then. Not sure if he could do the same* if he was starting out in today's environment with just a skillset from undergrad...
*Read: "be as successful", not "do convertible arb"
MBAs in S+T? (Originally Posted: 12/05/2006)
Are there many MBAs working in S+T? I guess it's not an obvious choice for MBAs (compared to Banking), but do many people do this after a career change via an MBA?
Cheers, Rody
some shops only hire MBA's for S&T, so there are opportunities there.
there are definitely a decent number of MBAs in S&T, but they tend to be concentrated a bit more in the positions that are a bit more banking like, like derivative marketing.
otherwise, there isn't as clear a reason why you should hire an MBA vs an analyst for a lot less in most cases.
that said i do know traders with mbas
I suppose you also have a slight issue that by entering S+T after an MBA, you've already "played the MBA card", so can't use it as a way of getting out of S+T 5 years down the line etc.
Rody
I have an MBA and now work in S&T. I think as the markets get more and more focused on derivatives there is an expanding role for MBAs in S&T. One of the main growth areas is working with investors to explain all the complex products - this is often called marketing.
What schools are recruited for S&T/How to break into S&T (Originally Posted: 04/06/2008)
Hey,
I'm going to Texas next year, so obviously, there's no way I'll be recruited for S&T because from what I understand, S&T is even harder to break into than banking. My question is, if this is what I want to go into, what types of schools would I need to transfer into? Also, is it true that quant-heavy people have a huge advantage in this industry? So in that case, would majoring in engineering help me out a lot in order to break in?
thanks
^^^^
Then again, getting into Boothe and Wharton is a cakewalk compared to getting into Bendheim. 2% acceptance rate vs. ~10%.
Still, all things being equal, an MFE/M. Fin. Math/ math-heavy finance MS is going to be stronger than an MBA for trading. If you can get into Wharton, you might not be able to get into Princeton, but you can probably get into Stanford or Haas's MFE programs with the appropriate math background.
I actually would like to know this as well. I assume the most common answer would be to contact alumni. While this is not so difficult for typical corporate finance ibd jobs, S&T at UT is not that common. Would simply applying to websites that have positions open next year be plausible or would contacting anyone in the industry (regardless of alma mater) be another good choice?
If you're interested in energy trading I'm sure there are some decent opportunities coming out of Texas.
I did a couple of internships at small prop shops as well as fixed income research desks before my junior year. I also took stochastic calculus classes to prepare me for the quantitative aspects of S&T. these experiences definitely helped me land my interviews. They also convey that you have a strong interest in the market.
If you go to school to Texas, I'd suggest that you do some internships during winter/summer breaks before your junior summmer in local energy trading shops to build up your resume. No you won't get to trade. but you'll get the exposure and you have to take initiatives to do analytical work.
Read books. There are excellent books about this field. Get to know what the culture is like on a trading desk and see if it fits your personality. Liar's poker, When Genius Failed, fooled by randomness, black swan, Market Wizards are some good ones.
Familiarize yourself with statistics, especially the probability aspect of it. Take classes on this subject, do puzzles to test yourself. It's asked a lot in interviews.
Read about the market, you will eventually develop your own point of view and be able to generate some basic trading ideas. Test them out on some simulation account.
Start playing poker or bet on sports. Develop a sense of what risk is. Check out www.intrade.com if you don't like poker or sports.
Find some ways to put all the shit above in your resume so people know you are interested in trading. I put my trading-related coursework on there, for example. Some guy a while ago wrote about how he developed a program for betting on sports. Traders like that shit.
Plenties of BBs recruit S&T interns at my schools. But if you don't have the resources, definitely reach out and network your ass off. Apply via the recruiting website might be the only way if they don't come to you directly.
thanks for the reply untilted. Do you know, however, in general how hard it is to break into trading in general if you show interest by doing things that you mentioned? Also, can those trading internships still help me out, even if I choose to do something else in business such as corporate finance or consulting?
thanks again.
I did an internship in trading... (traded futures).. and well I can say yes they will.. trading gives u a very good feel of the concept of risk and reward and it also teaches u a lot of innate abilities such as self discipline and controlling emotions. To break into sales and trading in general, experience in terms of internships is wad counts. I also think it helps if you do some of ure own trading e.g. in stocks and all.
In terms of how it can help in corporate finance or consulting, I honestly am not too sure but I am sure others especially the bankers can help out here
" Do you know, however, in general how hard it is to break into trading in general if you show interest by doing things that you mentioned?"
not easy.
Each BB on campus interviewed like 15 people for 1st round S&T. Think about it. only 15 people even get the chances. A lot of them have multiple S&T interviews too. After that, 3-4 are sent to super day, and 1-2 offers are given out. Pretty competitive process. Although fewer people apply to S&T compared to IBD, S&T is still competitive simply because the applicant pool is more self-selective (they know their shit).
Although all the BBs interviewed for IBD interns at my school, not all the BBs interviewed for S&T. Deutsche Bank didn't, nor did Credit Suisse. UBS didn't interview for fixed income S&T. I guess my school isn't quant enough for them.
@IlliniProgrammer Thanks for the insight on the MSF, exactly the type of advice I was looking for in terms of my plan B. I will admit because I am a career-switcher into Finance, I'm definitely interested in the MBA moreso for the networking, and experience in addition to the opportunities that it will provide. I'm sure you know the saying, "You don't know what you don't know," so I want to keep the door open just in case I find an area in Finance that I like more than Trading (90% certain I want to go into Trading). Because of this Quant-like MBA programs would be plan A. However, you definitely have me thinking about Plan B. If I had to choose between trading opportunities after school or "MBA experience," I'm going with trading opportunities.
@MonumentMan Thanks for your insight as well. I neglected to mention that I have an Engineering U-Grad, which is why I am even considering Tepper, the quant-stuff doesn't scare me as much as it does for my non-engineering friends. Good point about the S&T, and I didn't mention this before but I am interested in Trading. I have heard about most of the MBA placements on the desks being in Sales, which is why I am concerned about S&T recruiting to begin with. Definitely don't want to end up in Sales only to have to go back to get MFE/MSF to get onto the trading side. However, this is the greedy side talking now. I'm just trying to get IN a BB...can't do this F500 life much longer.
Which B-schools are better for getting S&T jobs? (Originally Posted: 07/18/2011)
With 3 years experience in Equity Research, I am currently applying for B-school. It seems that nowadays, the majority of MBA students who work in finance jump into M&A, rather than S&T or AM. However, my career interest is not in IBD anyway, and S&T is the first choice for me if I do not do ER any longer.
I am not quite sure - are the banks still actively recruiting MBAs for their S&T desks these days? According to some top B-schools' employment data, less than 5% of their recent graduates went to S&T, where 20-40% went to IBD. Is it because of the bad time on S&T business, or because of lower appitite for the banks to recruit MBAs for S&T? If I want to go into S&T after B-school, which B-schools will be the right one (with more opportunities)? Or should I apply for MoF instead if my interest is in S&T rather than M&A?
If anyone could kindly teach me about the stuff above I would be very grateful!
Hi there,
Pertaining to why more MBA's go to IBD, that is simply because there are more IBD positions than there are for S&T. It is not because of the bad time on S&T business since major banks are cutting jobs in their IBD than any in any other divisions such as S&T and research right now. (you can easily find from dealbook that major banks have been cutting jobs in IBD to tighten up).
For the right B-schools to go into S&T, obviously, the best MBA's are from Harvard and Yale. Also Wharton is top notch. However, for practical purposes, as S&T is less management intensive (MBA is mostly for executive positions) and more functional, schools in New York City, NYU Stern or Columbia will do. Working in major financial centers like New York City gives you a major advantage in networking and connecting with professionals.
Best of luck,
Definitely not Yale, which is not that great of a b-school. Also, very few HBS students go into sales&trading.
The best schools are Wharton/Booth/Columbia, followed by NYU. Those 3 do very well with s&t desks, but from talking to friends, most MBA's go into sales, not pure trading.
Great to hear from you kosky, you really made my day and it is my pleasure to learn from your ideas.
BTW: MIT Sloan is famous for its MoF program, the majority of the graduates of which went to quant/trading jobs. I wonder if they have the same style in MBA programs? I believed that Sloan is a top B-school but some friends told me that do not hope too much since it is not that excellent.
On the other hand, you mentioned Yale SM, which I respected a lot. But many say Yale graduates never made the mainstream in financial industry, is that right? Perhaps they are more interested in business/strategy/public affairs?
carnegie mellon actually has had some place as well this past summer into trading roles as well as some MIT but def chicago columbia and wharton (and yes i was shocked when i found out my friend got s&t from carn mellon, he was pure mba not a hybrid or mcsf)
Yes, getting s&t at a bulge bracket from carnegie mellon MBA is VERY rare. Your friend is an anomaly and should consider himself fortunate. The masters in quantitative finance from tepper is very good, and they place well into quant trading roles.
But yeah, wharton/booth/columbia dominate S&T.
Wharton/Chicago/MIT/Columbia/NYU Stern
@bcbunker1
You just ruined my night. Just kidding, I appreciate your thoughts, exactly the type of stuff I was interested in hearing since these schools don't publish the backgrounds of the kids that get the placements. So as a career switcher, if school A sends 30% of kids into S&T but they all have prior experience in S&T, then I'm at a heavy disadvantage. Looks like I need to open up my options and take a look at the MFE/MSF programs as well.
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