More prestigious? HBS vs HLS?
usually in society, which one "sounds" more prestigious?
i know all the bankers from HBS make a shitload more money, but then again, money doesn't always equal "prestige". There are car salesmen who make $3 Million and restaurant owners with no degrees making $5 Million but that isn't "prestigious".
so, put on your best elitist/snobbish hats and tell me, which one is generally regarded as more prestigious?
I would say law school simply because its alums are much more prominent to the general public and law is perceived as some sort of intellectual endeavor whereas the general perception is that business school is about schmoozing (and that would be true)
I dunno. I would consider the salesman or restaurant owner making $3-5/mill as more prestigious then someone who got into HBS+HLS. The latter is just a step stone (albeit the most prestigious stepping stone), the former actually made it.
Think of it this way: Would someone making 3-5 mill want to go to HBS or HLS? Would a student at HBS/HLS like to be making 3-5 mill?
Fuck formal education- it's just a tool, not a means to an end.
Shitty thing about law is that you're either making a lot of money with no life, or you don't make shit. For that reason, I don't get why it's such a highly coveted career choice.
Exactly why I got out while I still could. Its the glamour, I think.
^^^it's more like "you're either making a lot money with no life, or you don't make shit with no life"
I'll go with option #3, Harvard Medical School
Harvard Business has more prestige in general society. It's the most coveted degree in the world, even moreso than harvard law or yale law. It's synonymous with wealth and power, and its alums dominate every facet of business. In terms of earning potential and network, HBS easily beats out HLS.
Or if you're really accomplished, go for a JD/MBA at harvard and get a job at Paulson afterwards. A few guys have done this.
Or if you just want to be in the class of the most competent and successful MBAs, you could always go to Booth.
I just don't get it. Harvard is fairly easy to get into relative to most financial engineering programs. Chicago takes a few more in than Harvard and execs rank them as more competent and better at their jobs in most MBA surveys. So why not go with the highest quality program rather than the most exclusive?
This is the same mentality that makes people spend $70 on a pair of Indonesian-made khakis at Abercrombie and Fitch that come pre-ripped-up and wrinkled. For $40, you can get a pair of high-quality Korean-made khakis at J. Crew that aren't ripped, last longer, and don't make you look like you're homeless. Oh well, to each their own.
Harvard does NOT have a master's program in finance or financial engineering.
Booth is a great school as well, but everyone there was rejected at HBS and would have gone there in a heartbeat if they had gotten in. The OP was asking about prestige, and in that regard, almost nothing beats Harvard Business.
Heh, I can you tell you that's 100% false. Particularly the guys focused on Finance - I was in a strategy class with some of them, and they all had their pick of MBA programs. It either came down to Booth or Wharton for them. Harvard wasn't even in the picture.
Last time I checked, AF clothes were not more expensive than J. Crew clothes.
And Harvard MBA grads tend to do better than Booth MBA grads.
^Agreed. There are several programs that are far more selective than HBS.
This is like saying that people who shop at J. Crew can't afford Abercrombie and Fitch. Maybe they just don't like wearing clothing that makes them look homeless or studying in a program that gives them a bunch of connections to rich people but no analytical toolkit that gives them fundamental value when they graduate.
As for prestige, Abercrombie and Fitch has more prestige, but you're less likely to be denied a table at a nice restaurant wearing khakis from J. Crew than wearing homeless attire from A&F.
They're both good programs with tailoring for different regions. However Harvard really isn't in a class of its own when it comes to MBA program and there's a bunch of lower-key schools that cost less and offer the same or better NPV or prestige proposition. Also don't forget the three English schools as well, not to mention IIT/IIM.
When it comes to the world's largest and one day most important country, IIM wins hands-down in the prestige rankings.
WHO THE FUCK CARES
Princeton Undergrad + Wharton MBA + Yale Law + Harvard Med = Ultimate Prestige
Best answer in my opinion!
This girl: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2003/6/5/senior-earns-perfect-grades-… is probably the most prestigious person alive.
BA in government from Harvard, created her very own JD/MBA program, with a JD from Yale and an MBA from Harvard.
Lisa Schwartz FTW
Lisa Schwartz FTW.
Lol I wonder wtf you could even do with all of that shit? I guess if you did engineering at Princeton, you could then become a patent lawyer (make use of the law + ugrad degree) that specializes in biotech/medical devices (use of Harvard MD) and then invests in companies in the biotech space (use of Wharton MBA)?
9 years of post-graduate work just for that, they better be starting you at $1mm / year.
This makes me want to kill myself.
My grandfather completed this back in the nineties
Bingo. Some folks want to pay $70 to wear prestigious homeless attire, other would prefer to pay $40 for a pair of well-made khakis that can get them into most fine dining establishments. To each their own.
//Trollbait thread.
Princeton Undergrad + Wharton MBA + Yale Law + Harvard Med = More than $1M in debt and living in (relative) squalor while you clutch desperately at your prestigious diplomas while watching the loan bills flow in.
I know your kidding- but can you just imagine how ridiculous it would be if someone did that lol? It would never happen I suppose- not because there aren't smart enough people- but rather because nobody's smart enough and stupid enough.
What are the payments on that? $1 million @ 8% + 20-year repayment schedule = $130K in after-tax payments per year= BK unless you START north of $400K/year pre-tax.
i fucking love how IP is equating HBS with looking like you're homeless by overpaying for A&F LOL
Haha, I know. I had to double take to make sure I read that right. And there's nothing wrong with either pair of khakis.
More like -
Harvard College + Harvard MBA + Harvard Law + Harvard Med = Ultimate Prestige.
I go to a mid-Ivy and the only place people would transfer to without even thinking for a second would be Harvard.
And now both Lisa Schwartz and her brother work at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz.
^why in the hell did she waste the two years doing a Harvard MBA?
Also, her brother makes her look like a dummy:
KEVIN S. SCHWARTZ (Associate, LITIGATION )
Education: Yale Law School (J.D., 2006), Thomas I. Emerson Prize, Judge William E. Miller Prize Oxford University (Ph.D., 2006) Oxford University (M.B.A., 2002), with Distinction, Marshall Scholar Harvard University (B.A., 2001), summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa Sophia Freund Prize for Top-Ranked summa cum laude Graduate in Harvard College
http://www.wlrk.com/Page.cfm/Thread/Attorneys/SubThread/Search/Name/Sch….
So what do we do now? Start flooding his office with prank calls?
IIMs are shit.
I did graduate from an IIT, which in IMHO are significantly better...
Why do a JD/MBA when you want to practice law? I just dont get it. The extra year for an MBA is wasted. Plus I thought she would be hitting up public policy in a big way.
Good for her though I guess..
except abercrombie is for high schoolers? lol
The answer to the JD/MBA has to do with practicing certain kinds of law. When you focus in on Securities Litigation, Bankruptcy, Restructuring, M&A and a few other major areas of finance, having either a background in the area in question (ie spending a few years working for a Bank) or having an MBA to "make up for the lack of full practical experience" is looked at favorably in the Law Community.
Now, as to the question of HBS or HLS, I would argue strongly that HLS carries a much higher sense of Prestige overall. If you look at the alumni base, I mean, it has 2 US Presidents (and the wife of one), 10 US Attorney Generals, Numerous politicians, 15 Supreme Court Justices (of which 1 is the current Chief Justice and 4 are currently sitting on the bench, and it counts among those 15, two of the most prolific jurists in Oliver Wendel Holmes Jr and Louis Brandies), its fair share of Federal and State Judges, governors, and political appointees. Outside of the US, you're talking notable politicians and jurists from around the world. Outside of Politics, the are extremely well represented in the world of Academia. Outside of Law, there are more notable political and social activists than from HBS. HLS has its share of famous authors, artists and actors (including the late comedian Greg Giraldo). In the realm of business, Jim Cramer, Lloyd Blankfein, Sumner Redstone and Charlie Munger all have their JD from HLS. Hell, even their list of dropouts and outgoing transfers is impressive, again, including politicians, political appointees, a chief justice (He was a dropout), a current sitting Supreme Court Justice (who transferred out) and a former Supreme Court (this one was a dropout), Economist Greg Mankiw (a dropout), and the former Secretary of the Treasury, Goldman co-chairman, interim chairman of Citigroup and the current Co-Chair of the Council on Foreign Relations, Robert Rubin. Look at HBS. It's got nothing this expansive.
HBS really shines in the realm of business. That's about it. The transference into other realms, including politics, isn't as great. Prestige is not just about money. Prestige can be wealth. It can be power. It can be influence. The network at Harvard Law School is much bigger than you think, and is so well connected in ways we don't think about. Unlike business school, the reach of a lawyer is more pervasive than you'd expect.
However, it really doesn't matter where you go to school, but what you can do with yourself to make things happen.
Good post. I agree that HLS has a broader reach in society. However, I think the HBS alumni network still has more "punch." Aside from the fact that it's much larger, HBS has a very large international presence while the vast majority of HLS alums are Americans who stay in the country. And the type of students you meet at HBS, in terms of their backgrounds and achievements, are more impressive than HLS, which accepts students primarily based on their undergrad gpa and lsat scores. At HBS you get navy seals, children of wealthy international tycoons and world leaders, people who worked at elite PE firms and hedge funds, etc. I think having access to such an eclectic and accomplished network is invaluable and IMO counts more than HLS.
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.
First of all, the collection of assorted characters you said end up at HBS most certainly end up at HLS. Both schools look to get the quality of candidate that best meets what they are looking for in a student base. Law School takes two types of people. If you look at HLS's Class of 2013 statistics, GPA's importance actually is and your personal story takes more of a prominent standing.
While I love the zeal for saying what HBS will accept, they accept the exact same people at HLS if they wanted to apply. Law Schools traditionally do not break down the class into where they came from. It's not like business school where background is "important", and by "important", I mean it has some vague notion of relevance to problem solving. Law School doesn't care as much about your background in your first year and even then, your background is only relevant in courses that apply your background. Law School and Business School are apples and oranges in that regard. As to the entrance exams, yes, the LSAT is important, but it's just as important as the GMAT is for HBS.
I think that your comment about the international presence is a questionable approach at best because of the nature of the court system. Unlike Business, a Juris Doctor carries with it different status. In the US, while a JD has the same merits as a Bachelor of Law applied in Common Law countries or similar degrees awarded from other countries, is much more applicable to practicing Law in the US. The system of law stateside is adversarial and, although we use the same idea of a Common Law system as the UK, we don't have the same notions of a common law system that the English use, or the notions governing Canon Law that religious organizations use, Sharia law which governs the Islamic world and a concept of civil law used by continental Europe. This does not preclude practicing Law internationally, as having a JD is more than sufficient for having a "Dual License", meaning the lawyer is admitted to bar in multiple jurisdictions (in this case internationally).
Unlike an MBA, which is just a flimsy piece of paper that says you understand business, a JD carries the same professional status as an MD. A JD is a PROFESSIONAL degree. I've capped the word professional for a reason, because you need (or an international equivalent - and an LLM if you are an international lawyer and plan to practice in the US) as a precursor to any sort of practice of law. Even then, you still need to pass and be admitted to the Bar in order to practice in the States (or the local equivalent to the Bar). Outside the US, there may be an apprenticeship that comes with it. With the increased international presence of many major US firms all over the world, having a JD from a school like Harvard, which is already extremely well connected stateside, is quite beneficial for lawyers looking to hire internationally. An HLS degree carries with it the same weight no matter where in the world their JDs are practicing.
HLS admissions focus mostly on quantitative factors, whereas HBS focuses mostly on qualititative ones. Also, if you qualify under US Law, you can't practice in another legal system without taking a conversion course hence most HLS JDs stay in the US, This confines the alumni base to people working in the country and pales in comparison with HBS's global alumni reach.
As to which is more prestigious, I don't know or care, but I wanted to correct a lot of the misinformation in your post.
Your understanding of law school admissions is deeply flawed. With the exception of Yale Law (which is so selective that they routinely reject 180's and really look carefully at extracurriculars and other qualitative aspects), law school admissions is about numbers. It doesn't matter if you've been out of college for 5 years. If you had a 3.5 gpa and 165 lsat, you're NOT getting into Harvard Law. Just not gonna happen. Heck, I knew a girl in college who had like a 3.95 gpa, tons of leadership on campus, and was a finalist for the rhodes scholarship, and she got dinged at HLS because her lsat was only like 166.
Frieds,
For the record, you can take the bar in California without going to law school. The pass rate in CA is 15% for people who did not attend law school, as opposed to 30% for those who did. I'm not sure if this means you can practice, perhaps you can clarify?
http://www.economist.com/node/21528280
Great to see you around WSO again, your wisdom is most certainly appreciated :)
As for prestige, who cares. Men who determine their self-worth based on their affiliation with an admired institution are weak in my eyes. Its funny how you think you are above the herd by going to HBS or HLS, but really, you are just a part of the herd. The most interesting people can succeed without the degree that they would get from either of those schools.
This is one of the best quotes I've seen on this site. Spot on.
^^^ More folks who pick J. Crew and Aeropostale over Aberzombie. :D
I thought Wharton and Booth were in the 70s. Regardless, Booth has twice the acceptance rate of HBS, so 60s is pretty darned impressive relative to high 80s.
Harvard wins the cross-admit battle with the typical applicant because of selectivity, not because of the quality of the graduates or the program. Again, this gets back to Joseph Abboud vs. Chinese-made Hugo Boss. Most consumers given the choice would pick Hugo Boss because it's more expensive, but educated folks would take the US-made Joseph Abboud. It's a higher quality suit that lasts longer. The typical Booth or Wharton picker has done a lot more research than the typical Harvard picker.
So having done more research equates to higher quality now?
can we plz stop the circlejerk about prestige permanently on this site plzplzplzplzplz
the PRESTIGE does not fucking matter. if it gets you to the well paying jobs that you desire doing thats all that matters, along with you being happy. if youre a miserable banker or lawyer, your school degree isnt going to make you any happier.
This is kind of a ridiculous question. HLS is far far more prestigious than Harvard Business.
There seems to be a focus on admittance here, rather than graduation. I would count graduating from either of those schools as being more important to prestige related concerns. Graduating from HLS is infinitely harder than graduating from HBS. Graduating from law school in general is infinitely harder than graduating from business school
As to the question, I think they're equally prestigious, each in its own way. At the end of the day, they're both entities of Harvard University, arguably the most prestigious university in the world, and to me, law, business, and medicine are all more or less equivalent in terms of prestige of profession. However, the prestige of the institution you go to can only take you so far (in most instances a first round interview), and past that point, your passion/knowledge/character/etc. take over. I'll be applying to the JD/MBA programs at both Harvard and Chicago, and if accepted to both, I would without a doubt heavily consider spending four years in the Windy City.
A patent lawyer / COO at a startup biotech company. Bam!
I wager that the OP has a very, very small penis.
lulz Harvard Law is way harder to get into. Law school in general is harder to get into than an MBA program. HBS is great but in my opinion is not on the same level as Harvard law. A lot of the MBA admission process focus is on work experience, interview, personal statement. Law school admissions for Harvard Law look something like this. Did the applicant get 96% on the lsat? If so, don't throw out the application. Did applicant go to a top undergrad with a 3.8+? Don't throw out the application. Then they look at personal statements etc. You can land yourself in HBS if your dad hooked you up with a sick job at GS, you crammed for 12 months straight on the gmat and broke 700 and wrote some bullshit essay that the adcom likes about how you created a start up that makes micro loans to midgets who live in the netherlands who want to start midget communities. It's a load of crap lol.
This year I spent a weekend with a bunch of HBS grads and spent a weekend with some Harvard law grads (separate occasions). HSB kids struck me as kids who are great with excel, know their times tables and can drink beer. Not particularly bright nor interesting. Not stupid, and not total nerds but they were one dimensional and lame. The Harvard law kids were destroying bottles of scotch while simultaneously quoting and debating Georg Hegel's "Philosophy of History." I respect that.
Not hating on MBA's or HBS at all. Just saying, Harvard law attracts more interesting and well rounded intellectuals...... oh yeah only 50% of Harvard law grads got jobs..... sooooooo I'd much rather be HBS myself. Who needs to be interesting or intelligent when I gotz dat GS business card.
Can't tell if this post is serious or not.
But let me address it regardless. First, I disagree that HLS is a lot harder to get into than HBS. It's definitely harder from a purely academic standpoint because admissions is almost entirely based on gpa and lsat. But HBS goes way beyond numbers and looks for a wide variety of skillsets, experiences, and accomplishments. A guy with a 4.0/180 lsat is a virtual autoadmit at HLS but is in no way a sure shot at HBS if he does not have solid work experience, leadership, awesome recs, great essays and interviews, etc.
Also, the notion that HBS students are one-dimensional and lame is laughably wrong. HBS consistently gets some of the most accomplished and interesting people from all across the world. The plethora of their background and life experiences is quite staggering; it truly is an amazing place, which is one reason why virtually everyone who went there raves about it.
This is somewhat of an exaggeration
I fucking hate people who still refer to others as 'kids'.
This debate is pointless really. Each school is at the pinnacle at their respective professions so to cross compare them doesnt really work. Are you really telling me someone is going to look down or think less of you, etc for attending HBS when they said they went to HLS?
They are both very prestigious in my opinion but I do feel that HBS is harder to get into than HLS. There are some people in HLS that probably cannot do a simple calculus problem. In business, a strong math background is almost vital. Contrary to what you guys think, there are more people in this country that are better at reading and writing than math. You can suck hard at math and still make it HLS since there is no math on the LSAT. That is not the case for business school and the GMAT. Besides from what I know, the prestige of your undergrad doesn't matter much when applying to law school as oppose to finding your first job and applying to business school.
Sincerely, Someone with a math background.
jetset, the most complex operations you need to know in finance are exponentiation and multiplication. if you can't do those things you don't suck at math -- you are just innumerate and should have your high school diploma stripped from you. i hope there aren't such people at HBS.
FWIW i know many folks at HBS and HLS. intellectually, they are impressive. i haven't met a dumb one yet.
How about All Souls College at Oxford? They stopped the one-question exam recently, but I'd say that probably has more prestige than anything else.
Look up the exam they used to administer to applicants.
Harvard Medical School is the most prestigious, in my mind
God this thread is way too long and popular...
It means you've got a bad tailor.
Well Booth or Wharton may be better for finance, but Harvard seems like a great place for nonfinance roles... not implying that it's not also great for finance, just doesn't seem like it's finance like Wharton.
This discussion seems so stupid though... If a guy/girl is in business I think HBS would be more prestigious. If he/she's a lawyer, HLS. Guess what school I have in mind when it comes to doctors... I can't get myself to think that somebody from HLS/HMS is more prestigious than a guy from HBS just because they have different goals. It's like there's a constant search for the absolute pinnacle of prestige on this forum.
Prestige isn't really that important to me anyways. I have just as much respect for the guy from unknown state school who's achieved as much as the guy who went to HBS. Maybe even more.
edit: btw, I only mentioned Harvard so much because that seems to be the theme. Illini's point about the suits makes sense.
If I knew anybody that found it necessary to get all of those degrees, I'd think that that person is probably one of those prestige whores like some people from this site. I'd like to meet somebody who's done something like that and just ask "why?"
And if undergrad was engineering then it would have to be MIT.
It's just sad to watch someone who never got into HBS badmouth about HBS :)
who's badmouthing HBS?
Waiting for someone to come post something along the lines of:
"My Sniper can take out your Honor Student from 600 yards."
Prestige is worthless
We have presidents from HLS, but not HBS
HLS chicks are hotter
.....that is all
Number 3 is a bit of a given. I would be floored to see a hot chick in business school.
there are definitely a few at Booth. not many, but a few. And they are pretty legit hot, not just relative to their peers.
HLS chicks are definitely not hotter. There are a surprisingly large amount of attractive classy women at HBS. Great place to find a wife.
...and this is why it pays to think and THEN speak
Really? Classy, I see, but attractive, I didnt expect.
Eh, you're better off wifing up a girl who's ~four years out of an elite undergrad working in NYC at a non-profit.
EDIT: I commented on a year-old post, awesome.
George W. Bush is an HBS grad. First president who attended business school.
Yes, that's true. He got rejected at UT law school, but his dad got him into HBS. The education obviously did not help him much when it came to his disastrous fiscal policies.
To be fair, the fiscal issue in the US has stemmed from president to president without anyone really addressing it properly. That would be near the bottom of the list when criticising Bush. But I digress, I dont wanna turn this thread into that. Thats for the forthcoming geopolitical forum..
Yes, Bush's fiscal policies were disastrous. And Obama's fiscal policies are an even greater indictment on HLS. I'd say Harvard has a pretty bad recent track record.
BTW, Ronald Reagan was asked one time if he ever felt bad or inferior about attending Eureka for college. He responded something to the effect of, "Imagine what I could have accomplished if I had attended Harvard."
Sorry guys but I have to make a change to my Ultimate Prestige™ formula. Here it goes:
Deep Springs + Harvard UG (can't transfer to princeton) + Yale Law + Wharton MBA + Harvard Med + Get a second BA from Princeton = Ultimate Prestige
UFO, it's really too early to comment on who will do a better job. We'll see in 30 years how the world ranks the two.
However, I do agree that HLS has produced more noteworthy people than HBS.
education is overrated.
whoever has more money wins.
I feel this is HBS.
HLS tend to have better alumni in govt, but power is not that useful unless your in a high position in a dictator ship where it helps you amass vast resources.
academic credentials become impressive once your a prof in a hard science at prestigious school, before that ur still just an idiot.
Could have been worse for Bush...His family could have had their name on a building and still be rejected from HBS.
cough Kennedy School of Government cough
Co-founder at Preftige Worldwide, duh
If you have some sort of speech impediment, I guess pronouncing it "preftige" is ok, but when you write it, you still need to spell it with an s.
Seriously folks. I thought you ivy leaguers knew how to spell.
Also, if you want prestige, look at the folks dodging bullets on behalf of the US in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries. In the context of the northeastern schools' postmodern and naturalistic values, if you can somehow pull that off and make it out alive, you are probably more evolved than most American bankers.
You spelled preftige wrong.
EDIT: (Also, you're the Ivy Leaguer now, bro.)
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