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You could make the argument any of the banks are overhyped - people at my target just recruit IB, especially RX, because other people do it. It doesn’t mean they’re not smart, but it doesn’t help anyone. Look at PJT RSSG - almost everyone in their intern class recruits for MF PE over the summer. Just goes to show they saw banking as a stepping stone - now the new trend is increasingly PE out of undergrad
It’s core for every group in houston (i.e every bank) and probably a semi target for NYC
This is such a UT post.
The only thing “Target” about it is the shopping trip incoming frosh make prior to move-in, over which signing up up for IB club (and starting memorizing ‘technicals’) takes precedence.
Think "overhyped" and "firms that people blindly recruit" can be two different things. I think it's hard to argue that the firms you listed are "overhyped" when they've constantly met expectations in terms of buyside placement. Actual deal flow and job function there also lives up to the reputation - both firms are at the top of the league tables right now for their respective groups/industries. It makes sense everyone wants to recruit there. If I had no idea what I wanted to do, I would just follow the rest of the smart kids.
Not sure if sentiment has changed, but I remember thinking Moelis was overrated back in college. Specifically, the NYC team heavily recruited from my school - never understood the hype because it wasn't that small and the people I interacted with didn't seem the like their job. Each networking call, analysts and associates would ask if I had any thoughts on NYC vs. LA, and that's when I realized that LA was better. Turns out all the people I know at Moelis NYC either left in <1 year due to the terrible culture or went to MM PE. People who usually went just couldn't get anything better on either the M&A or RX front
Moelis, whilst the exits do remain strong, might be the most overrated bank on the street. Their average M&A deal size this year is 750mm, they are a glorified middle market bank. I have no idea how they got the reputation they have, but they really do not compete on that many 10b+ or even 5b+ mandates. Miles apart from the PJTs of the world. That being said, the analyst placement to buyside is excellent. I'm sure I'll get MS for this comment, but I really don't understand the hype. My top MM regularly competes and wins pitches against them.
At a MM as well (pretty average one) and at least in healthcare, I can confirm your last sentence is accurate at least in my experience. However I'm not sure if this is them not being able to get on larger deals or just a general willingness to go down market. I'm sure the fees are still decent.
If you look at Jefferies Stats too, they also have a pretty low Deal value.
Definitely agree with everything you said. However, what differentiates them from other MM banks is that they actively pitch for M&A deals that are 2-3B+ …. you’d never see a true MM bank like Blair, Lincoln, etc. go after larger deals
at moelis NY and currently on a $10b deal and a <$150m deal
moelis is a slut bank, it takes whatever
PJT is an outlier among other EBs, most will go down market. Transaction size mix isn't wildly different for the others. Moelis is probably a bit more willing to go down-market. Also why it has the sweatshop reputation, the extra capacity is plugged with mid-market stuff
kinda like a fratbro who can hook up with 8s but will go for 4s after a few beers
Great take here, but even compared to PWP which is known for going down market and many consider to be "below" moelis on this site has over double the average M&A deal size YTD. Moelis is truly a down market player compared to the other EBs.
The 'overhyped' group is the one you're in but not interested in.
Hands down HL RX
If you want to do restructuring, better off going to PJT or EVR. If you just want to do banking and have no idea what kind, go to a bulge bracket.
Hands down HL RX
If you want to do restructuring, better off going to PJT or EVR. If you just want to do banking and have no idea what kind, go to a bulge bracket.
10x Leveraged we need your input here
Can anyone from HL RX confirm the points on L/S and MF PE exits and the culture?
Just do a quick LinkedIn search - the minority of people at PJT RSSG go into distressed, but the vast majority of HL RX goes into credit. It’s self selection to some capacity, but a good fraction of people realize how tough and scrappy distressed can be, especially at a place like HL. If anything, a lot of people who do RX for even a summer figure whether they enjoy working with distressed businesses. You’ll probably be able to join a pod shop on the HF side, but I don’t think those seats are coveted by any means vs. single manager funds i.e. tiger cubs.
Associates and VPs are nerds with zero personable skills. Worked with them on the creditor side.
the fact that OP says "75% of people are fratty" shows that he/she knows nothing about that group
I'd be curious to know the wallet share HL has with RX mandates. Rx hasn't been as active as people thought it would be in the last 12 months so knowing that, who is getting the lions share of remaining action?
And would love to have a breakdown by sub $500M deals and > $500M deals. Also would be curious on what the drivers of 2019 vs 2020 performance and where you see 2021 performance
Associates are responsible for holding the deal during deal execution, where VP is managing up. Two vary different roles requiring very deep finance expertise to deal the best deal experience to trusted clients
Is EVR RX also overhyped to some extent? There don't seem to be any MF PE exits (flagship PE, not credit/hybrid value) besides one guy who switched to BX PE for full-time.
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Work at EVR M&A. all EVR groups’ 2nd years just left. For RX one of them was flagship PE. I think the rest of that class is all in HFs or like you said Apollo hybrid value. So it’s a lot of HF self selection which sounds right given RX kids (in general) tend to do HF vs M&A to PE. The RX team historically loves to hire wharton kids so that probably adds to why. But in general for all top shops (not just EVR) MF PE funds don’t just flat out ignore RX team, and also everyone at EVR (and all top shops) gets looks from top funds, it’s not as group dependent as undergrads make it. Would focus more on culture and deal flow when comparing groups
Restructuring league tables are a joke IMO. I read an interview with Ken Moelis (I think it was Ken?) where he seemed pretty adamant that restructuring “league tables” would look very different if you include companies that they’ve advised and helped avoid Ch 11.
Not sure where to start with this comment - recent analyst class had exits to Apollo (PE fund, not hybrid value or credit), Centerbridge, and Anchorage. Exits were basically identical to PJT and Evercore's from what I've heard. Your description of the analyst class screwing each other over and the group being 75% fratty and snakey makes it seem like you're just making this up, my buddies in the group have all said exactly the opposite. They definitely had a few bad months during COVID but even by the summer it was rare for them to work past midnight, and I haven't heard a single story of analysts screwing each other over. Have heard that analysts have been leaving at 7-8pm this year - the reason RX didn't give paid vacations is because analysts had such a good work-life balance to start with. Bonuses last year were north of 6 figures too. Also pretty sure most of the Wharton kids they take were either PMs or execs in WITG. Sounds like someone just didn't get an offer from them lol.
They fill 50% of the class Wharton and the rest with students in leadership positions at schools like UVA-Duke-NYU. At UVA, they basically always take the best sophomore of the oldest and largest club on campus and I've heard at Duke they always hire from one specific club as well.
You def don't know the group or are trying to misinform
lol second HL RX as overhyped. I always wondered why some of the brighest H/W kids that end up there go. There’s a distinct lineage of kids from W that comes to mind, but the rationale seems to be that they understand they’re capable of exiting whenever or wherever given background. Can’t imagine them not thinking this through. As for the rest of the group, HL including RX is a volume based group. With a larger RX group, it implies that exits will be diluted, and it’s harder to stand out without a nice pedigree. All the Apollo’s, Carlyle’s, etc are the Wharton kids and they’re all in NYC. LA, Minneapolis, and the other regionals have terrible placement relative. Dallas just sends kids to LMM PE. Only real reason I would think to go to HL is that I can’t get a better offer or I want to be a career banker, barring friends and family.
It almost seems like Laz RX replace’s HL RX hype spot. Lazard gets little attention at the undergrad level, but their placements are lights out - on par with EVR and not restricted to distressed
You can’t recruit directly into Laz RX though...
Not true. They recruited at my school this year for RX (among other groups). RX was for their Chicago office though
None bankers lives matter
ww are all great
Media and Entertainment coverage
hi - would you mind explaining why that is?
Just personal preference
GS TMT SF specifically and PJT M&A probably the most overrated. Both great - I mean great - shops/ teams, but wouldn't hype them as much as prospects/interns do.
Only shops that really live up to expectations are Evercore M&A, GS TMT NY, and PJT RSSG.
Lol those are top 2 groups extremely swaggy
they are top of finance echelon.
Swaggy and IB don’t belong in the same sentence
Couldnt agree more
Why is GS TMT SF overrated?
Mediocre, not impressive analysts to VPs solely focused on tech
Lol if you actually think GS TMT SF is overrated but then say GS TMT NY is the best then you definitely don’t know anything about GS…
Lol GS TMT SF exits aren’t even comparable to NY tbh. GS SF is really just GS Tech. More GE/VC/Corp Fin opps.
This is such a nerdy topic
Yup. That’s what makes wall street oasis so great, because it’s the bankers and people who make up the site
No where else will people say GS TMT hmm.
People here are honest and listening
Some Would say wallstreetoasis is too good to be true.
Not sure this makes it great. PJT M&A, HL RX, Moelis NY, GS TMT SF are all really amazing groups and people should be focusing on getting better rather than wasting time with this stuff
GS TMT - large group a lot of analysts are just on client services books
HL RX
Certain groups within EVC. They are a super strong franchise but some groups are very new (metals & mining, c&r and it's literallt 2-3 old mid tier BB MDs running the show)
Someone in another thread mentioned it but for mm groups, Raymond James tech has to be the most overhyped
What? By whom? The career counselor at your non target?
Don't know anyone in the RJ tech group personally but have heard people saying their a top 2-3 MM tech group
Second this. They have had some good exits in the past but as was also discussed, many were due to family/ close connections. The quality of the deals they work on are on par with many other MM groups, so the amount they have been discussed in here is very overblown relative to other firms. Again, not saying it’s a bad group, just certainly overhyped.
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