Moving to NYC - Making the move to Manhattan

Hey Monkeys,

Debating on making the move to Manhattan but before that happens, lets eliminate the alternatives.

  • Does anyone have experience with Roosevelt Island or Queens/Brooklyn?
  • Do people live in Hoboken/Jersey City primarily because no city tax?

Assume working 5 days a week ~70 hours.

 
Best Response

I live in Hoboken/Jersey City and know a number of other folks in trading who live there for tax avoidance purposes.

It is a 35 minute commute at rush hour, but it's about 1 hour after the trains stop running regularly sometime after 11 PM.

An apartment in mid-town costs $2800/month for a one bedroom you can convert into two. Meanwhile, you can get a solid two bedroom at Jersey City/Grove Street for $1700 or Hoboken/Newport for $2200. Figure on also avoiding $300/month in city taxes for a total savings of $600-$900/month. That's really just the beginning since you also have a lower cost of living and more frugal friends/neighbors.

If it is your first year or two and you will be expected to work less than 80 hours/week, I really recommend Hoboken/Jersey City. When solid dividend stocks are yielding 5%/year, you can sock the $10K you save in the stock market and get an extra $50/month PERMANENTLY to help pay rent in Manhattan next year.

Bear in mind that $2700/month anywhere else in the country gets you something totally amazing. So why spend money like you're going bankrupt here in New York? Why not try and save some of it to spend when you manage to escape this frigging overpriced town?

 
IlliniProgrammer:
^^^ Minimum for a legit studio in Manhattan is typically $2K.

If you aren't in IBD, save some cash and live in Hoboken or Jersey City for a year or two. Then move to Manhattan if you really want the New York lifestyle (squandering your retirement on weekends partying at The Hudson Hotel.)

This person does not know what he is talking about. You can defintiely get a nice studio in a doorman building in Midtown for less than $2,000 a month. If you go without a doorman, and look in other areas of the city as well, you can definitely be in the 1400 - 1500 dollar range.

You can definitely live in Manhattan and still save (I know because I do this,) As long as you don't spend recklessly on the weekends on stupid shit (bottle service all the time), you'll be fine.

 

^^^ I think it's pretty tough to go below $2000 in Manhattan for a doorman building. Here's a sample from the biggest REIT in NYC:

http://www.equityapartments.com/new-york/new-york-city-apartments.aspx

$10,000 is more than a years' rent in most parts of the country. And that's before it compounds about 11-12 times net of inflation before you retire. For the opportunity to retire a year earlier, I'll commute an extra 35 minutes.

illini do you go to hudson hotel a lot? i live a block away... in my duplex with 2 beds, 2.5 baths, porsche design kitchen with sub zero and viking appliances and a washing machine room bigger than most peoples bedrooms in manhattan BOOYA gloat
LOL, don't mean to stereotype Manhattanites as being spendthrifts, but the fact is that the cost of living is much higher in NYC even for equivalent lifestyles. Groceries are 15-20% more expensive in Manhattan and a bottle of beer costs $7 in Manhattan while it's $4-$5 in Jersey City/Hoboken. So if you are going to college in the Philly or Boston or Chicago suburbs, take your current non-rent spending, tack on 30-40% for Jersey City/Hoboken; tack on 55-70% for Manhattan, and figure on $250/month for city taxes and $1400/month rent your first year (for splitting a two bedroom).

Even if you don't like spending lots of money, your neighbors and friends will want to spend more- at least relative to Jersey City.

Life is less expensive when your neighbors enjoy dive bars rather than night clubs; grabbing a bite to eat at $7 Taqueria rather than dropping $40 at Spice Market.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
^^^ I think it's pretty tough to go below $2000 in Manhattan for a doorman building. Here's a sample from the biggest REIT in NYC:

http://www.equityapartments.com/new-york/new-york-city-apartments.aspx

$10,000 is more than a years' rent in most parts of the country. And that's before it compounds about 11-12 times net of inflation before you retire. For the opportunity to retire a year earlier, I'll commute an extra 35 minutes.

illini do you go to hudson hotel a lot? i live a block away... in my duplex with 2 beds, 2.5 baths, porsche design kitchen with sub zero and viking appliances and a washing machine room bigger than most peoples bedrooms in manhattan BOOYA gloat
LOL, don't mean to stereotype Manhattanites as being spendthrifts, but the fact is that the cost of living is much higher in NYC even for equivalent lifestyles. Groceries are 15-20% more expensive in Manhattan and a bottle of beer costs $7 in Manhattan while it's $4-$5 in Jersey City/Hoboken. So if you are going to college in the Philly or Boston or Chicago suburbs, take your current non-rent spending, tack on 30-40% for Jersey City/Hoboken; tack on 55-70% for Manhattan, and figure on $250/month for city taxes and $1400/month rent your first year (for splitting a two bedroom).

Even if you don't like spending lots of money, your neighbors and friends will want to spend more- at least relative to Jersey City.

Life is less expensive when your neighbors enjoy dive bars rather than night clubs; grabbing a bite to eat at $7 Taqueria rather than dropping $40 at Spice Market.

Not everything needs to be put into such extremes.

I live in a large studio within a doorman apartment in midtown and pay less than $2,000 per month in rent. I have friends paying closer to $1500 and $1600 for studios in the village and flatiron district. The people I know paying more than 2 grand are living in one-bedrooms.

I do not spend my time at expensive clubs and, like most people, realize that in the greatest city in the world, there are plenty of great places to eat without dropping a ton of cash. There are plenty of dive bars in Manhattan and solid restaurants that don't cost an arm and a leg.

By living in NJ, you end up saving a few hundred bucks a month and then have to commute to work every day AND commute every time you go out. And let me be clear, having a pain in the ass commute to get back home on a late weekend night or, if you're single, trying to get some chick to go back to NJ with you, is not going to be an easy feat and it will get old fast. If you are in your early-mid-twenties, live in Manhattan. The whole point of having these types of jobs is to be able to live decently and do some nice things for yourself, not just to save for retirement.

I'm not trying to bash you, Illini, but I've seen your posts on here. You've stated that your end-game is to own a farm or some such shit in like 20 years. Your main goal in virtually everything is to save as much money as possible. If that's a goal, then yeah, live in NJ. But, if you want to maximize your NY experience, live in Manhattan.

 

Thanks for all the replies guys.

TheKing:
The whole point of having these types of jobs is to be able to live decently and do some nice things for yourself, not just to save for retirement.

Yeah that what I think if the cost is low enough its definitely worth the extra $$$.

shorttheworld:
yeah avoid doorman apartments in manhattan
Thanks will keep this in mind.

IlliniProgrammer thanks for the replies. I agree with you on the importance of saving early i.e. prefer dive bars / no foolish purchases, I guess I'll go for Hoboken if I can find a much cheaper place close to the Path otherwise splurge for a year somewhere on Manhattan

"I came, I saw, I networked"
 

illini i think the comment re: spending can easily vary, just all depends... theres a great taco truck and a great halal cart (only after 7pm.. not the one there during the day) at 58th and 9th and i get food from them often plus there are tons of cheap places in the city to get good food in the city but overall i def will agree with you... but if you look at brooklyn can do cheaper as well and park slope food co op etc

and i think that 1400 for splitting a two bedroom is prolly more like a Flex 2 bedroom with no living room :P depending where of course

 
I'm not trying to bash you, Illini, but I've seen your posts on here. You've stated that your end-game is to own a farm or some such shit in like 20 years. Your main goal in virtually everything is to save as much money as possible. If that's a goal, then yeah, live in NJ. But, if you want to maximize your NY experience, live in Manhattan.
Oh, absolutely, but the Manhattan experience doesn't make that much sense to me until you're socking away more than $70-$80K/year living in Jersey City or Brooklyn or can at least pay cash for a condo in the city. Your suggestion to rent a studio for $2K/month is much more expensive than splitting a two bedroom in Jersey City or Hoboken for $800-$900/month, and that's before we get to the city tax (3-3.5% of income). All in, what you have in mind is actually much more expensive than my suggestion (split a 1-BD-convert to 2 for $2700, $1350 apiece), and comes out to $15K/year more than splitting a two bedroom in Jersey City or Hoboken.

We're still in a recession, banks are still announcing layoffs, and it never hurts to pay down college debt and build up emergency savings if you've just graduated. And for folks our age, we've got it incredibly good right now in terms of earnings potential. There's no real guarantee we'll be able to earn more than $15/hour in ten or fifteen years. And as someone with cross industry experience as a software & algorithms architect, I should be less worried about this than most bankers who'd be in trouble if there was a shift towards individual money management and more direct routes to the market as there has been in the past.

Why not build up a savings cushion now while times are good? $10K saved today with 5% dividends that keep up with inflation is $500/year PERMANENTLY. That's an extra week of vacation a year if you're only earning $15/hour a few years down the road. Do that for your first couple years in NYC, and you've got a much more secure retirement/backup plan if the bottom falls out of the financial industry (as it seems to have been doing for the past three years.)

For new analysts, when they announce layoffs and your coworkers are all running around worried, that $10K extra you saved by spending an extra 25 minutes/day on the train for a year is going to feel awfully darned good.

 

To add to my previous arguments:

Living in NJ will give people a certain perception of you. There is a stigma to living in Hoboken, fair or not. And taking the Path train will have people thinking you're B&T (bridge and tunnel) garbage.

Obsessing over your retirement to the extent Illini does is not going to make you a happier person. It's fucking weird. I live in Manhattan and have a good chunk of change saved away. It isn't hard to do if you are responsible with your income. And the fact that I can do whatever the fuck I want without relying on the shitty Path train makes my life that much easier and more enjoyable. Try getting home on a late Friday night. Try getting a taxi to take you to NJ and see what that'll cost you.

If you want to live a life centered around saving for retirement, there is almost no reason to work in a high-stress finance job that pays well. Hoboken is not nearly as awesome as he makes it out to be, and its viewed as a fucking dump to most people.

I have friends making way less than I do that live in Manhattan and still save money. The idea that you NEED to be in NJ and focus on your retirement instead of living responsibly and having a better social life is retarded.

 
I agree with you on the importance of saving early i.e. prefer dive bars / no foolish purchases, I guess I'll go for Hoboken if I can find a much cheaper place close to the Path otherwise splurge for a year somewhere on Manhattan

That's probably a reasonable compromise. Downtown Hoboken will run you a couple hundred a month more than Grove Street, but it's got a bit of a Manhattan feel and it's about 10 minutes shorter on the commute round-trip. (20 minutes on the weekends and late at night.)

My recommendation is to spend no more than 20-25% of your salary on rent your first year. That works out to about $1400/month. In downtown Hoboken, you can probably either find a walk-up studio or split a very nice two bedroom with a doorman on that rent. Figure on another $1700/month for all other living expenses and you'll be able to save $1000-$1200/month after tax on your salary.

Living in NJ will give people a certain perception of you. There is a stigma to living in Hoboken, fair or not. And taking the Path train will have people thinking you're B&T (bridge and tunnel) garbage.
Hogwash. Half the folks I work with live in JC or Hoboken, largely to avoid the city tax. It's a sign of common sense and thrift- particularly if you did not grow up in NJ and do not walk around with a fake orange tan. Perhaps things are more highbrow in banking than trading.
I have friends making way less than I do that live in Manhattan and still save money. The idea that you NEED to be in NJ and focus on your retirement instead of living responsibly and having a better social life is retarded.
No. What's just as crazy is spending $1200/month extra in rent your first year when most people can live on $1200/month outside the city. Why not save that money your first couple years working in NYC? After a year or two, you're getting enough from the dividends from what you've saved to spend $2-3K/year doing trackdays, going hang gliding, and doing wreck dives. You'll make just as many friends that way. Or, if you stick it out for a few more years, you've saved enough that your dividends and interest can cover the difference between rent in Hoboken and New York.

Living in Manhattan is a privilege- one that I think is wise to wait for until you've got dividends to help pay the rent and a much firmer backup plan if you lose your job. Deal with the stigma of living in Hoboken or JC for a year or two (I've never found it from anyone that really mattered) and decide what you're going to do after that.

 

Yeah it seems people care less where you live in S&T.... hahaha I rofl'ed at B&T. I did spend a summer living in NY, everything about it was great besides the price... I'll see if theres any steals to be found

"I came, I saw, I networked"
 

^^^ In all fairness, I think it also has to do that you start off working only 60 hours/week in S&T and eventually get down to 45-50. In IBD, you start at 90, dont have time to commute anywhere but Manhattan, and spend a long time working your way down to 60 (at which point you're out in Connecticut with a family and so much money coming in from dividends that you want to avoid the NY state tax.)

I hated living in lower manhattan and commuting to Midtown as a summer intern. After six weeks, I realized that I had gone quite a long time without seeing any living thing besides humans, rats and people.

Landing at O'Hare and driving through the suburbs and just seeing all the grass and trees was such a relief. I figured that I'd investigate Jersey City and Hoboken when I moved to New York and realized I liked it there a whole lot more AND it was less expensive.

 
Just...just wow. I'm honestly speechless at the shit Illini is posting in here. Let me be clear:

Hoboken fucking sucks, get over it.

Shrug.The only MDs I know that live close to the city are in Hoboken. That extra 10 minute commute/day saves them tens of thousands a year in taxes. It's a nice place, it's less expensive than Manhattan, and if you spend your first two years there rather than Manhattan, that's $20-25K in savings for an extra 10 minutes commute/day. Come retirement time, that's easily enough to buy a vacation home.

The truth is that nobody who matters cares where you live. They care how you do your job (which really isn't impacted by where you live unless you work 90 hours/week in IBD or have to entertain clients at your home).

Oh well, thanks for renting in the city and helping to pay my REIT distributions. I would have had to have forgone positions generating thousands a year in dividends had I lived in Manhattan in 2008 and 2009. Good thing I've now got those stocks and can still move to Manhattan at any time if I really really want to.

OP- please move to Manhattan and rent a really expensive apartment from one of the REITs. I want my distributions to go up. :D

 

Thought I'd chime in since I lived in NYC (manhattan) for many years - I had to be close to work since my hours were so long my first two years (avg. ~85-90, sometimes up to 120), but the last 3 years my hours were ~50hrs/week.

Year 1 (2002): 1BR Converted w Roommate in nice doorman building, 50th- 8th Ave. $1,400 each

Year 2: Small 1BR (almost like studio converted), 5 FLOOR walkup - 55th and 8th, above Soup Nazi, ONLY $1,250 TOTAL (again ~10min walk to work which was key)

Year 3 & 4 (actually was in Boston for 9 months, so more like Year 4): Larger 1 BR in Doorman building, 46th and Lexington, for $1,900/month...this was a steal. The kitchen and fridge were a joke (1970s?) but I was always willing to sacrifice with a crap kitchen bc I never cooked anyways. The building wasn't super pristine or shiny, but good location (again, ~10min walk to work = ideal) and very livable (living room was like 12x14, bedroom, 12x11)...why I stayed 2 years

Year 5: Moved in with GF at the time to a nice place on 38th & Park, rent was $3425/month but it was a HUGE 1BR with amazing views (windows on each side of building - Empire state on one side, Chrysler building on other)...and since we were splitting rent, was ~$1,700/mo

So I can appreciate Illini's willingness to commute in order to save, but for IB analysts, I dont really think it is a good idea at all. For someone working under 50hrs a week with a lower salary, I wouldn't knock it though. That being said, if you are smart with your money -- and patient enough to look for a "deal" in Manhattan, they can absolutely be found.

I think each person needs to look at their own financial situation independently. For some people that have very little saved up, student debt, etc....AND you don't have long hours, living outside of Manhattan is prob. a good option until you get yourself on better footing. But for those with longer hours and/or a lot of friends already living in the city, Manhattan can be a blast (and I'm not talking Models & Bottles, I'm talking dive bars as well...Blue&Gold = $2 drinks IN Manhattan).

...just saying... it's not so black and white guys....

 
WallStreetOasis.com:
Thought I'd chime in since I lived in NYC (manhattan) for many years - I had to be close to work since my hours were so long my first to years (avg. ~85-90, sometimes up to 120), but the last 3 years my hours were ~50hrs/week.

Year 1 (2002): 1BR Converted w Roommate in nice doorman building, 50th- 8th Ave. $1,400 each

Year 2: Small 1BR (almost like studio converted), 5 FLOOR walkup - 55th and 8th, above Soup Nazi, ONLY $1,250 TOTAL (again ~10min walk to work which was key)

Year 3 & 4 (actually was in Boston for 9 months, so more like Year 4): Larger 1 BR in Doorman building, 46th and Lexington, for $1,900/month...this was a steal. The kitchen and fridge were a joke (1970s?) but I was always willing to sacrifice with a crap kitchen bc I never cooked anyways. The building wasn't super pristine or shiny, but good location (again, ~10min walk to work = ideal) and very livable (living room was like 12x14, bedroom, 12x11)...why I stayed 2 years

Year 5: Moved in with GF at the time to a nice place on 38th & Park, rent was $3425/month but it was a HUGE 1BR with amazing views (windows on each side of building - Empire state on one side, Chrysler building on other)...and sine we were splitting rent, was ~$1,700/mo

So I can appreciate Illini's willingness to commute in order to save, but for IB analysts, I dont really think it is a good idea at all. For someone working under 50hrs a week with a lower salary, I wouldn't knock it though. That being said, if you are smart with your money -- and patient enough to look for a "deal" in Manhattan, they can absolutely be found.

I think each person needs to look at their own financial situation independently. For some people that have very little saved up, student debt, etc....AND you don't have long hours, living outside of Manhattan is prob. a good option until you get yourself on better footing. But for those with longer hours and/or a lot of friends already living in the city, Manhattan can be a blast (and I'm not talking Models & Bottles, I'm talking dive bars as well...Blue&Gold = $2 drinks IN Manhattan).

...just saying... it's not so black and white guys....

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I also want to add, outside of your personal financial situation, you have to think about how the commute is going to impact your attitude and thus your work. Personally, I HATE sitting in traffic and I hate being inconvenienced. Granted, I do not work in NYC, so take this all with a grain of salt but I could imagine that I would probably want to murder myself and/or my coworkers everyday that I had to sit for an extra 10-15 minutes on the train. Maybe I'm blowing it way out of proportion because I don't really know for sure what I would act like because I've never commuted in NYC for work, but I know I live across the street from my office now and I wouldn't want it any other way (assuming I had the choice). My situation is a bit different as my travel time and cost would increase if I lived further away because I would have to drive (gas, vehicle wear & tear and parking) and I would sit in traffic for 30-45 minutes on a good day.

To each their own. IP always makes a good push to be frugal, which isn't a horrible idea, but there is also something to be said for living in the city and spending a little. You can save every dime you want with an intent of retiring at 30 but that won't mean shit if you get hit by a bus when you're 29.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

Sometimes you have to take into account the fact that you're only young once, and that that extra price paid to be living IN and experiencing NYC can be worth it. Not everyone loves it, but how are you supposed to know without trying it?

 
Muzach:
Sometimes you have to take into account the fact that you're only young once, and that that extra price paid to be living IN and experiencing NYC can be worth it. Not everyone loves it, but how are you supposed to know without trying it?

This is what I'm getting at in a nut shell. Saving a little more in your first year so you can retire at 64 instead of 65 is retarded. Enjoy these years as much as possible because they go very fast and you will be old for much longer.

 

ok where the hell are you guys finding these deals? sometimes you can get lucky on craigslist but its rare. I'm moving back to NYC and I want to have a studio and live alone for once. If you guys know any buildings in midtown or village that cost below $1800 please list them.

 

wow. Who wants to live in Hoboken when they're first moving to NYC? And to justify it by saving later for retirement. If you want to save for retirement, do it after a couple of years of living in the main city. Especially if you can afford it. There are definitely deals out there, but I have a couple of friends who live in Jersey. And well, I've never been to their apartment and trying to get people to come over much less hookups is probably a huge challenge if you don't have a car.

I'm a big fan of public transportation, but even the NYC subway system breaks down and doesn't even run smoothly to the more easily accessible neighborhoods (Astoria & Brooklyn). If you're young and making decent change, move into the city or at least Brooklyn.

I've only been to a wedding once in Jersey and I've never gone clubbing. If you want some semblance of a social life listen to the other posts. After 1-2 years of living in the city, if you don't think it's worth it. Move to Jersey. At least then you'll have a social network to leverage.

 
audaciou02:
wow. Who wants to live in Hoboken when they're first moving to NYC? And to justify it by saving later for retirement. If you want to save for retirement, do it after a couple of years of living in the main city. Especially if you can afford it. There are definitely deals out there, but I have a couple of friends who live in Jersey. And well, I've never been to their apartment and trying to get people to come over much less hookups is probably a huge challenge if you don't have a car.

I'm a big fan of public transportation, but even the NYC subway system breaks down and doesn't even run smoothly to the more easily accessible neighborhoods (Astoria & Brooklyn). If you're young and making decent change, move into the city or at least Brooklyn.

I've only been to a wedding once in Jersey and I've never gone clubbing. If you want some semblance of a social life listen to the other posts. After 1-2 years of living in the city, if you don't think it's worth it. Move to Jersey. At least then you'll have a social network to leverage.

Real talk.

The extra few hundred a month spent on living in Manhattan instead of Hobroken will pay dividends in the form of more fun. No one wants to go to Jersey, period. If you're 45, fine, go for it, raise a family there. If you're 25, why the fuck would you live in Hoboken if you can live in NYC and responsibly save money?

 

If you live in Hoboken, you can easily get a car. Want to go hiking in the Poconos? Or drive up to the Catskills for hang gliding? If you live in Hoboken and it's a Saturday morning and you get some crazy idea, you can run with it and drive wherever you want to go.

What is the appeal of this god-forsaken city, anyways? Sewers backed up with water? Overpriced restaurants with snobby Manhattanites? Asphalt, concrete, and bricks? I know, it's the rats in the subway. That must be it.

If you don't find Manhattan particularly appealing, or even if you do but don't find it appealing enough to spend an extra $10K/year on it, NJ or maybe Westchester for folks a few years older is the obvious choice.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
If you live in Hoboken, you can easily get a car. Want to go hiking in the Poconos? Or drive up to the Catskills for hang gliding? If you live in Hoboken and it's a Saturday morning and you get some crazy idea, you can run with it and drive wherever you want to go.

What is the appeal of this god-forsaken city, anyways? Sewers backed up with water? Overpriced restaurants with snobby Manhattanites? Asphalt, concrete, and bricks? I know, it's the rats in the subway. That must be it.

If you don't find Manhattan particularly appealing, or even if you do but don't find it appealing enough to spend an extra $10K/year on it, NJ or maybe Westchester for folks a few years older is the obvious choice.

See, the problem with your argument is that chances are, unless you live like a total cheapskate, that extra $10,000 is not going to be a reality. You're basically saying "you should live in NJ and hang out there and only go to the city for work and then you'll have all this cash to put to use in 40 years!" That's no way to live. If you think that way, don't work in NY, this is a big country with plenty of less expensive places with more access to cheap housing and great outdoor activities.

Furthermore, the city isn't filled with only snobs and overpriced restaurants. What it is filled with, however, is some of the best food in the world of any variety you'd ever want. Don't want to spend $150 on dinner for two but still want to be satisfied? There are hundreds of restaurants that will do the trick, and a half-way decent place in Manhattan is likely better than 99% of the crap in Hoboken.

So, if you plan on spending a lot of time in the city and think you'll be going out a ton in the city, then LIVE in the city. If you want to spend all of your free time hang gliding and don't plan on going out in the city, live in Hoboken.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
If you live in Hoboken, you can easily get a car. Want to go hiking in the Poconos? Or drive up to the Catskills for hang gliding? If you live in Hoboken and it's a Saturday morning and you get some crazy idea, you can run with it and drive wherever you want to go.

thats your argument, really? if you live in nyc you can easily get a car at minutes notice, ever heard of zipcar

 

I think at this point, the OP can figure out what's best for him. If he doesn't know anyone, is young and relatively new to the city, I think Manhattan / Astoria / Brooklyn are the obvious choices. IF he wants to think about retirement, saving $10K a year, and hiking in the Poconos with an established network of friends he already has in the area he'll pick Jersey.

I had a friend in banking who bought a condo in Jersey. It wasn't Hoboken, but boy did she have a rough time. When she would get out of work at 3am she would often stay at her desk, because the commute back and forth wasn't feasible for a 7am meeting. She would camp out at her cube and take a shower at the local gym. Fun stuff.

Good luck

 
audaciou02:
I think at this point, the OP can figure out what's best for him.

Haha yeah this really turned into a lively discussion. Thanks for all the advice guys, now the pros/cons of each in the big picture of things are pretty clear.

"I came, I saw, I networked"
 
See, the problem with your argument is that chances are, unless you live like a total cheapskate, that extra $10,000 is not going to be a reality. You're basically saying "you should live in NJ and hang out there and only go to the city for work and then you'll have all this cash to put to use in 40 years!" That's no way to live. If you think that way, don't work in NY, this is a big country with plenty of less expensive places with more access to cheap housing and great outdoor activities.
I dunno. Just by living in Hoboken, you're saving $10K combined on rent and taxes. So even if you decide to spend a few grand a year on other fun stuff that young people do (which might be covered in the cost of living outside rent alone), you still come out ahead. You can always move to Manhattan at age 30 if you really want; it's a lot easier to learn hang gliding or kitesurfing when you're younger and healthier, though.

My suggestion: if you work less than 70 hours/week and aren't enamored by Manhattan, save $10K/year the first year or two and commute from Jersey City or Hoboken. You can then invest that $10K in a REIT, collect the dividends, and use that money to move into a nicer apartment in Manhattan. Save up $40K, and at 6%, that pays the extra rent on a nicer view and a balcony. Next time you bring friends to your apartment, you can serve up some grilled hamburgers and bratwurst.

 

holy shit this thread is retarded..the entire point of working your ass off in finance is to enjoy and spend the $ you make, not worry about retiring when you are 23. i couldnt agree with the king more - there is def a stigma about living in jersey, no fucking smokeshow is going to take a 45 minute cab ride back to jersey (yeah u can pick up chicks in hoboken i would assume, couldnt tell you). the only reason anyone ever goes to hoboken is for the st pattys day parade (which is sick btw if youve never been).

not to beat a dead horse, but there are definitely deals in the city to be found. be open to neighborhoods and setups (walkup, no doorman, etc) and also the more people living together the cheaper obviously. dont really plan on living alone for the 2 yrs or so in the city.

you can def live here and not do the whole bottles and $150/head dinner thing. save money in other easier ways if you must (make your own coffee, bring lunches, cook dinner/expense at work, whatever).Pretty much the entire point of your early 20s is to bang as many chicks as you can and enjoy yourself. dont do shit like live in jersey which makes that more difficult to save a few bucks.

 
iambateman:
holy shit this thread is retarded..the entire point of working your ass off in finance is to enjoy and spend the $ you make, not worry about retiring when you are 23. i couldnt agree with the king more - there is def a stigma about living in jersey, no fucking smokeshow is going to take a 45 minute cab ride back to jersey (yeah u can pick up chicks in hoboken i would assume, couldnt tell you). the only reason anyone ever goes to hoboken is for the st pattys day parade (which is sick btw if youve never been).

not to beat a dead horse, but there are definitely deals in the city to be found. be open to neighborhoods and setups (walkup, no doorman, etc) and also the more people living together the cheaper obviously. dont really plan on living alone for the 2 yrs or so in the city.

you can def live here and not do the whole bottles and $150/head dinner thing. save money in other easier ways if you must (make your own coffee, bring lunches, cook dinner/expense at work, whatever).Pretty much the entire point of your early 20s is to bang as many chicks as you can and enjoy yourself. dont do shit like live in jersey which makes that more difficult to save a few bucks.

But...but...if you do that, you will have to retire at 65 instead of 64! THINK ABOUT THE DIVIDENDS!!!!! EVERYONE IN NEW YORK CITY IS A SNOB WHO ONLY WANTS TO DROP HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS ON EVERY MEAL AND ONLY GOES TO PRICEY CLUBS FILLED WITH SNOBBY GIRLS!!!!!

Hahaha. Thank you for backing up common sense.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
^^^ Yeah. One of my friends spends an hour going through the Lincoln Tunnel to get the heck out of this city.

Again, the fact that everyone hates NJ to me is proof that it's cheap and practical. Meanwhile, I'll be retired a couple years earlier than I'd have been if I lived in mid-town. Value investing FTW.

Cheap, sure. Practical, not so much. Maybe for getting out into the country and more rural settings faster, but not more practical for:

-getting to work faster -getting to better restaurants quicker (not just the pricey ones) -getting friends / chicks to come to your place -getting home late on a weekend -getting to museums -getting to nice parks -having an infinite selection of bars / clubs / lounges / hookah bars / coffee shops / etc. right outside your doorstep

But, yeah, have fun retiring a couple of years earlier. Which is honestly only true if you live in a vacuum. If you and I have the same income for each period of our lives, yes, you will be able to retire "earlier" and "more comfortably." With that said, we don't live in a vacuum or a controlled environment, and who knows where our earnings may go (ideally way up.) Your idea of retiring early is based upon a rather bleak outlook on your future income, and is a piss-poor argument for living in a dump versus actually maximizing your early - to - mid twenties social utility.

 

I highly recommend Astoria if your office is located in mid-town. There are several new, smaller apartment buildings around the Astoria Blvd stop on the N/Q that have fantastic units with balconies and awesome views of Manhattan. I just moved out of NYC for a job and really hated giving up my apartment. In Astoria, I had a very large (by NYC standards) 3 bedroom apartment on the top floor of a 7 story building with amazing views of Manhattan and a parking space in the basement garage for only $2900 a month. It had two large balconies and the building is only a couple of years old. So although there are some crappy apartments in the area, if you take the time to search you can find a real gem at a very affordable price.

“Whatever you do, don’t be a victim. If you’re in a bad situation, try to fix it. If you can’t fix it, move on. Don’t whine.” --Jack Welch
 

I dunno. It's a 12 minute train ride to Midtown and you'll have a number of coworkers in Hoboken if you're in markets. Compare that with 20 minutes to half of Manhattan and it's pretty obvious when you also get to avoid the city tax.

Your idea of retiring early is based upon a rather bleak outlook on your future income, and is a piss-poor argument for living in a dump versus actually maximizing your early - to - mid twenties social utility.
Obviously you haven't been talking to anyone outside banking. The fact is that the US- particularly when it comes to banking- is in long-term decline. Even if it's not in decline, the business is becoming increasingly automated. That might be great for quant developers right now, but it's bad news for everyone else.

You make hay while the sun shines. The thing, though, is that it's not morning in America- it's sunset. The banking industry continues to get sicker, spreads continue to narrow, and in the next decade, I think IPOs and mergers will become very, very automated. If it means taking a train into Manhattan on Sundays for brunch group to save $10K a year, I'll take a train ride now so I can afford food in retirement.

It's already paid a lot of dividends. Back in 2008, everyone else was running around in a panic. Having $10K in the bank as a first year analyst is a great way to sleep at night during layoffs and a banking recession. And we can expect the pace of layoffs to get worse than 2008 in the next few years.

In any case, thanks for consuming all that stuff in the city and helping cover my dividends.

 

The fuck? I don't even work for a bank and many friends of mine don't either. I'm not tied to the banking industry and it's "sunset" period.

Second off, again, you do not need to live in Hobroken to save money. Know how I know that? Oh yeah, because I live in Manhattan and save money as do many of my friends who AREN'T IN FINANCE. I've got a friend pulling $45K a year living in the city saving money. No bullshit, no strings attached.

"but, but, I save more money! I can retire at 64 instead of 65! I'll have food in the coming American apocalypse!"

You disgust me as a man, you clown.

 
The fuck? I don't even work for a bank and many friends of mine don't either. I'm not tied to the banking industry and it's "sunset" period.
Of course you are. The country is $14 Trillion in debt and we're quickly going bankrupt. China now consumes more oil than us, we're not discovering enough oil to replace our consumption, and the country will probably be consuming half as much oil in ten or fifteen years as it consumes today. That has implications for nearly every industry from finance to agriculture. Additionally, the country is becoming increasingly socialist. As a developer/mathematician, I have a lot of choices over which industry I want to work in, and the future looks awfully bleak in pretty much all sectors aside from maybe energy. (This is coming from the only first year analyst in markets who called the crash in 2008 and still managed to buy back in in 2009)
Second off, again, you do not need to live in Hobroken to save money. Know how I know that? Oh yeah, because I live in Manhattan and save money as do many of my friends who AREN'T IN FINANCE. I've got a friend pulling $45K a year living in the city saving money. No bullshit, no strings attached.
Regardless, the fact is that unless you're paying $600/month rent in Manhattan, you could save money by moving to Hoboken. Why not save a few grand a year more? Or, if you are paying $600/month rent, why not move out of Washington Heights? It's easier to get folks who look like they'd get mugged in certain neighborhoods to visit you in Hoboken than Harlem.

The country and ultimately the world is going to be in long-term decline for a couple decades. Frankly, we're running out of oil and the alternatives- wind, solar, and PHEVs- are even less sustainable. You need to be saving money and investing it in hard assets now while there's still time.

But even if you don't think the world is ending, you've got a very pessimistic sense of your ability to create returns on your money if you're not trying to save every penny now while you're young. The average stock market investor nets 6% after inflation. If you can get 5% alpha, every dollar you spend today can be expected to turn into $2- and generating about a quarter a year- in a mere six years.

"but, but, I save more money! I can retire at 64 instead of 65! I'll have food in the coming American apocalypse!"
Ahh, I was thinking more like 33-34.
You disgust me as a man, you clown.
Again, folks, this is what I was saying- if you work in markets, nobody who really matters cares where you live. The corrolary is that some people who do care are idiots. Best case situation for TheKing, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank while he's still working. That's the best case. As they say, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
 

Have fun retiring on some farm in the middle of fucking nowhere, you dummy. I've seen other posts of yours on the site. Talking about how all you want is to retire and then own a farm and grow your own crops and what not. Good for you. But, for those of us who don't want to retire to a farm at 34 and grow our own crops for our entire lives, we'll have fun living in the present day while also saving for the future.

And best case? Get the fuck out of here. Again, that's based on bullshit assumptions. Including the assumption that all anyone should do is focus on retirement and that somehow "being capable of retiring on a farm in your mid-thirties" is a solid goal that everyone should have.

 

Illini. Just give it up. The fact that no one has piped in on your behalf means you don't fit into consensus and shouldn't be defending your position constantly. It's fair if you think that the path you've chosen is correct, but stop bashing people over the head with it. Because at the end of the day, you're not going to convince the majority of people here and you could potentially be giving bad advice to people. At least consider that much

 

Shrug. The most valuable thing in life is free time and people, not money and things. Everything turns to dust in 100 years, anyways- I say get off the hedonic treadmill and focus on things that will eventually make your life better rather than just make it more complicated.

Illini. Just give it up. The fact that no one has piped in on your behalf means you don't fit into consensus and shouldn't be defending your position constantly. It's fair if you think that the path you've chosen is correct, but stop bashing people over the head with it. Because at the end of the day, you're not going to convince the majority of people here and you could potentially be giving bad advice to people. At least consider that much
I'm not giving any advice per-se. I'm simply laying out the costs of both Hoboken and Manhattan so people can decide for themselves. My point is just that you will probably have to work a couple more years for the privilege of living in New York. That might be worth it- or it might not. To me, it wasn't worth it. To others, like the TheKing, it was totally worth it. (So much so that he needs to drop insults on neighborhoods and throw ad-hominems at folks who would argue otherwise.) Welcome to New York- everyone has an opinion, argues it vehemently, and it's not really personal. :D

In terms of actual advice, I'd recommend folks spend a little time looking around before they actually set their heart on a neighborhood. I was planning on living in the FiDi until I discovered all the open space in NJ and calculated the cost difference. One of my friends was set on Hoboken until he found a nice place on the UWS.

 

You get insulted because:

--Hoboken sucks and defending it to no end will not make it any better in reality

--You make assumptions about people (i.e. that you need to be a materialistic asshole to live in or want to live in NYC, which is not true)

--You make bullshit assumptions about retirement based upon desires that 99.9% of people in our field do not share and use them as facts to back up your arguments

--Also, Hoboken sucks

 
TheKing:
You get insulted because:

--Hoboken sucks and defending it to no end will not make it any better in reality

--You make assumptions about people (i.e. that you need to be a materialistic asshole to live in or want to live in NYC, which is not true)

I don't make assumptions about individuals, but neighborhoods, yes. I didn't necessarily say that Manhattanites were materialistic assholes and I don't see what's so insulting about saying that many Manhattanites enjoy eating at Spice Market and drinking at the Hudson Hotel. Whoever said that that was bad?

And it's hard to make a decision about Hoboken until you visit it. You visited it and thought it sucked. I visited it and thought it was nice, quiet, greener alternative to Manhattan. Apparently, so did some of my coworkers.

--You make bullshit assumptions about retirement based upon desires that 99.9% of people in our field do not share and use them as facts to back up your arguments

--Also, Hoboken sucks

Apparently, TheKing is the only guy who takes arguments personally in New York. Perhaps he should move upstate.

Dude, relax. Just don't forget to pay your rent on time- I was kinda hoping for a distribution hike this quarter.

 
TheKing:
Dude, you're a joke.

--No one is impressed by your REIT investments (you're on a forum of finance professionals who know how to manage their money)

Of course. I'm sure they understand the trade-off you chose to make.
--No one agrees with you on Hoboken vs. Manhattan unless they simply cannot afford Manhattan responsibly
Yes, and a lot of people have different definitions of responsibility. I think you should aim to save about 20% of your salary and all of your bonus. Other people think you should save less and that's fine, but if every dollar you spend today turns into two in just a couple years (more like three or four dollars if you plan on spending it outside of the NY metro area), that's a lot of incentive for some folks to keep their spending under control.

Sounds like I touched a nerve there on talking about savings and the fact that I can always move to Manhattan if I really want and be in better financial shape than I'd have been if I'd lived there the whole time. It's not the end of the world man- just let it go.

 

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