MSF or MBA for my experience level?

Long story short, I didn't get the exact job I wanted out of college (non-target private school in northeast) and am working on the product rather than securities side in fixed income. I want to transition to a capital markets or trading, or research role where I can interact more with the actual securities that make up FI portfolios. I only have a little more than a year of experience - should I wait 2 or 3 more years to get an MBA or should I take the GRE/GMAT now and get into a good MSF program? For reference I had a 3.9 GPA in undergrad and good extracurriculars (finance director of club with 15k+ budget) and good volunteer work (sponsor scholarship, 100+ hours in organized volunteer group).

 
TNA:
1) someone with 3 years experience should obviously do an MBA. Someone with one year can do an MSF.
Debunk: NO because if they're in some shitty job for 3 years, a MBA does NOT help. They'll simply get left over in the recruiting pipeline and looks as bad as a MSF kid, and they cannot rebrand again.
TNA:
2) plenty of MSF programs place students in IB (BB, MM, Boutique). Plenty place into TAS of Bval, rotational programs, etc.
Debunk: NO, Plenty of MSF enter IB is absolutely bullshit. The majority of offers come from summer analyst class, and how a massive pool besides MIT gets MSFs and IB without summer offer is ridiculous.
TNA:
[Paraphrased] Let's all skip Harvard, Stanford, MITs and the ivys! Save money, go to the WalMart of IB wannabe - MSF programs
TNA:
3) a MSF is not a “fringe” degree. Specialized masters are the fastest growing, per GMAC data. And a Masters from a lower ranked school isn’t going to have more or less credibility than a MBA.
Debunk: NO again, fast growth does NOT imply great futures, because MSFs are sold as undergrads, not as serious master's graduates. MSF from a lower ranked school absolutely can't help, because they are typically cashcow programs with even less reputation than MBA.
TNA:
4) a MBA is two years and double the cost. Many MSFs offer scholarships, which you ignore.
Debunk: WRONG because MBAs have scholarships too. The average first job salary after MBA is above 100k for even top 50 programs BUT MSF salary is way under 70k for even the top 20 MSF and drops like a landslide through the rankings. They also are MSF grads WHO MAY NEED TO GO GET MBA AGAIN.
TNA:
Fact is the MSF isn’t right for everyone, which is clear. Your opinion on it is too extreme. My statements are based on fact, experience and nearly a decade focusing on this degree. UTA, WUSTL, Vandy, Villanova, USC, OSU, etc all have a varying range of very good placements. Saying someon should get a low ranked MBA as always the best option is far to generic.

Facts totally supports Esuric, which means nobody gives a shit about whatever long term chronic illness experiences you're claiming respect for, and for the sake of human decency, at least shut up and listen before you talk. At least I got my MBA business schools">M7 MBA and I know what I'm talking about.

What you're effectively doing by shitting other people, is as bad as encouraging your parents to have extramarital affairs. YEAH, Extremely terrible advice

 

You have a grea GPA. Assuming you do well with your GMAT and have some upward momentum with your career, you should do well MBA wise.

The MSF doesn’t seem ideal for you at this point. You’re already working in a career path that provides good experience. You don’t need a new, better GPA. You seem to be set up nicely for an MBA as long as a few things continue goin your way.

Save the money and do an MBA in a few years.

 

MSF should be avoided if you can get an MBA. MSFs are really for those that desperately need their foot in the door. It's great for international's and those that graduated from non-targets (particularly those that graduated during the crisis).

If you're already in the industry but not quite happy, MBA is the proper route. Work hard for promotions; increase your salary to the extent possible and kill the GMAT.

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 

This is highly qualified advice. If you can get a top MBA (1-20). Otherwise you aren’t breaking into any of these more lucrative careers.

The OP obviously is on track and has the raw material for getting into a good MBA program. Someone with a so-so job and a 3.2 from a school no one has heard of can benefit from an MSF. And many people who get their MSF and go into a FO type role never need to or want to go back for their MBA.

 
TNA:
This is highly qualified advice. If you can get a top MBA (1-20). Otherwise you aren’t breaking into any of these more lucrative careers.

The OP obviously is on track and has the raw material for getting into a good MBA program. Someone with a so-so job and a 3.2 from a school no one has heard of can benefit from an MSF. And many people who get their MSF and go into a FO type role never need to or want to go back for their MBA.

I disagree. There are MBAs outside of the top 50 that have better placements than 99% of the MSFs out there. There are a few, select MSFs that perform but even they have relatively low, median starting salaries (MBB/BB is almost unheard of and you can forget about the buyside (unless you're talking about CRE).

By contrast, MBAs at UCONN, University of Delaware, Rochester, Penn, Baruch, etc., have 90% employment rates with median starting salaries at 110K+. IB associate placements are not unheard of. Regional placements are very strong.

So the MBA is the premier post-graduate business degree in the US by far. If you can bypass the MSF you should. The MSF is costly and there are little-to-no effective recruiting channels. The MSF is really for those desperately trying to break in.

If you have 4-5 years of work exp, get a 650 on the GMAT, MBAs from Notre Dame, Penn State, Rochester, etc., will do far more for you than MSFs at Nova, Vandy or Wash U.

If you have 4 - 5 years of work exp, get a 600 on the GMAT, MBAs from UConn, University of Delaware, Baruch, etc., will do far more for you than MSFs at Nova, Johns Hopkins, Syracuse, etc.

If you get a 700+ and can get into top 20, then it's not even close.

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 
TNA:
This is highly qualified advice. If you can get a top MBA (1-20). Otherwise you aren’t breaking into any of these more lucrative careers.

The OP obviously is on track and has the raw material for getting into a good MBA program. Someone with a so-so job and a 3.2 from a school no one has heard of can benefit from an MSF. And many people who get their MSF and go into a FO type role never need to or want to go back for their MBA.

How the hell is this person "obviously on track" for a good MBA program? ROFL. Tell me which targets are so welcoming?

3.9 is good. but otherwise trading is MBA dead end, nontarget can't help, and the job already seems miserable just a year out of college.

 

You’re comparing MBA starting salaries with MSF starting salaries and you complain about my lack of hard percentages? Lol.

I’d sure hope that someone who is going into the UDel MBA with 3-5 or more years experience would have a 25k premium to the average MSFer with 1 year or less experience.

As for your difficulties going from MSF to MBA, that’s your own. Not everyone has high debt and the MBA isn’t necessary for everyone.

As for percentage of placements defining “good”, I think if 50% or more of a class places into IB, ER, rotational programs, Big 4 TAS, etc then that is pretty good. Considering most students who attend these programs come from schools that don’t have these options.

The MSF provides an education, a new alumni brand, recruiting and a graduate degree. What someone does with it is their business. You seem to be unhappy with your choice and that is fine. But telling someon who has no path towards a decent MBA (being defined as giving someone the ability to secure one of the higher sought after career paths) to just do an MBA is irresponsible.

And please, how many people without banking experience are getting IB Associate roles from UDel or a comparative program? At double the cost of an MSF (without factoring in discounts).

Also, this ignores the PT MSF option. Someone working at say State Street in Boston would be benefitted doing the PT BC MSF vs say a MBA from Northeastern.

Like I said, you opinion isn’t completely wrong, just too extreme (in my opinion).

And as far as alumni network, I just helped an MSF get an interview. Vanderbilt uses their network extremely well. The UF MSF does the same with both their UG and MSF students. You went to the school. You have a degree from the school. Networking with alumni of the school is part and parcel.

 

Your comments are italicized

You're comparing MBA starting salaries with MSF starting salaries and you complain about my lack of hard percentages? Lol. I'd sure hope that someone who is going into the UDel MBA with 3-5 or more years experience would have a 25k premium to the average MSFer with 1 year or less experience.

This is my point. The MSF doesn't really treat you different. Everyone recruits for the same shit. For example, Capital One recruits at Wash U for its business analyst program. The MSFs compete with the undergrads no matter age/experience. The MBAs apply for the MBA roles. We had a 27 year old army captain that led 100+ people in combat in my year. He went to a bank as an analyst (graduated summa cum laude undergrad).

As for your difficulties going from MSF to MBA, that's your own. Not everyone has high debt and the MBA isn't necessary for everyone.

It's not just me that would have a hard time paying for an MBA after an MSF...

As for percentage of placements defining "good", I think if 50% or more of a class places into IB, ER, rotational programs, Big 4 TAS, etc then that is pretty good. Considering most students who attend these programs come from schools that don't have these options.

This is a pretty wide variation of roles. ER and rotational programs are not the same thing. IB and big 4 TAS roles are not the same. Stop conflating things that are very different.

And please, how many people without banking experience are getting IB Associate roles from UDel or a comparative program? At double the cost of an MSF (without factoring in discounts).

It's not double the cost. You have no idea what Udel costs, especially if you get a 680 GMAT in a program that averages 580. The question is, how many IB Associate roles does a comparable MBA (requiring 660+ gmat) produce? How many does Rochester, Georgetown, UT Austin produce compared to MSFs? A lot more is the answer.

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 

You have zero clue what it cost. You’re assuming scholarships and assuming none for a comparative MSF. You’re also ignoring opportunity cost of 1 vs 2 years.

And mixing Georgetown in a conversation with UDel is disengenious. Grown, Emory, ND, etc are all regional exceptions. Depending on ranking they come in T25 or 30. They have powerful brands and alumni network.

And ND and Gtown both have one year, PT MSF programs, allowing people with years of experience to get a graduate degree in half the time. Which many choose to do.

 

UG is not relevant to the conversation. MSF students are treated as UGs for Jobs because they lack experience. The kid attending one of these MSF programs is doing so because they couldn’t get a satisfactory role upon graduation.

A fair comparison would be to look at salaries from a WUSTL graduate when they reach the same experience and age as a UDel graduate. I’d be willing to be the person who does the FT UDel MBA program has a lower UG starting salary as the WUSTL MSF.

And I have no doubt others cannot afford the MBA. But you cannot crucify my for lack of data and then use an opinion as fact.

Correct. ER is different than a rotational program. Where they are the same is they are both top roles within their space. A rotational candidate is afforded different opportunities and exposure than someone hired to be an analyst in Corp finance right out of school. And TAS is a great springboard for IB and other FO careers. Not every UG school places for TAS, whereas many MSF programs do.

If a kid has 6 months experience from a decent school and just wants to move up within say corporate finance, taking time off to go to say Santa Clara’s MSF full time makes no sense. Someone with 3 or 4 years should obviously consider an MBA, but it’s not automatically the best thing to do.

My issue is with your absolutism in your advice. I try and be more nuanced as I’ve seen many people over the years do things you’d be definitively against and have great outcomes because of their specific and unique career goals.

 
Most Helpful
TNA:
UG is not relevant to the conversation. MSF students are treated as UGs for Jobs because they lack experience. The kid attending one of these MSF programs is doing so because they couldn’t get a satisfactory role upon graduation.

I just told you that a 27 year old army commander with IB internship experience recruited with undergrads for an analyst role coming out of an MSF. If that individual went to an MBA, he would have recruited for associate level position. Do you understand?

TNA:
A fair comparison would be to look at salaries from a WUSTL graduate when they reach the same experience and age as a UDel graduate. I’d be willing to be the person who does the FT UDel MBA program has a lower UG starting salary as the WUSTL MSF.

Honestly I don't know what this would look like, but I'm fairly confident that a Rochester, Georgetown, UT Austin MBA (more appropriate comparison for WUSTL) would fair better.

TNA:
Correct. ER is different than a rotational program. Where they are the same is they are both top roles within their space. A rotational candidate is afforded different opportunities and exposure than someone hired to be an analyst in Corp finance right out of school. And TAS is a great springboard for IB and other FO careers. Not every UG school places for TAS, whereas many MSF programs do.

Rotational programs are like the worst gigs coming out of MBA programs. TAS is "not a great springboard" of IB. MBAs don't give a fuck about TAS. The worst students from Pace, Temple, etc. type of MBAs make it to TAS. I know because I've worked with them in TAS.

TNA:
Someone with 3 or 4 years should obviously consider an MBA, but it’s not automatically the best thing to do.

This is where we have a disconnect. Someone with 3 - 4 years of experience should automatically go into an MBA. All other things equal, the employment outcomes for a comparable MBA significantly outperform the MSF. Once again, I have to refer to my initial point:

If you have 4-5 years of work exp, get a 650 on the GMAT, MBAs from Notre Dame, Penn State, Rochester, etc., will do far more for you than MSFs at Nova, Vandy or Wash U.

If you have 4 - 5 years of work exp, get a 600 on the GMAT, MBAs from UConn, University of Delaware, Baruch, etc., will do far more for you than MSFs at Nova, Johns Hopkins, Syracuse, etc.

If you get a 700+ and can get into top 20, then it's not even close.

TNA:
My issue is with your absolutism in your advice. I try and be more nuanced as I’ve seen many people over the years do things you’d be definitively against and have great outcomes because of their specific and unique career goals.

Okay well agree to disagree.

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 

"Rotational programs are like the worst gigs coming out of MBA programs.

Rarely that loser gets anything right but if it's Walmart or Apple, rotational program cannot be the worst gigs. Really only depends on firm though.

TAS is "not a great springboard" of IB. MBAs don't give a fuck about TAS."

Yes as usual, TNA bullshit. Which big 4 is almost without a brain to recruit TAS at MBA programs?

 

Who says you HAVE to go back for a masters? Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it, especially if you're doing it because you enjoy school and learning new material, but I wouldn't necessarily take on $30k - $120k more in student loan debt if you could wait this out and eventually work your way into the department that you prefer. I know so many people with masters degrees (some with more than one) who have absolutely no relevant work experience whatsoever and are working as TEMPS! I'm not saying it's a bad move to go back to school but a bachelors can get you just about anywhere that you need to go. Add some experience to the equation and maybe a certification sometime down the road and you've saved yourself some headache and a shit ton of debt that you can now invest in other aspects of your life.

 

Minus at rerum dolore consequatur laboriosam. Doloribus id et dolores ad incidunt minima ab.

Porro et nobis ut officia ipsum pariatur. Ut incidunt neque nesciunt alias. Natus rem dolorum aliquam omnis ut tempore in.

Nemo et maiores dicta quia. Commodi ad quas non sint maxime aut pariatur quos. Enim cupiditate minima aut architecto quos ut aspernatur. Reprehenderit voluptas soluta veritatis id hic ipsum ratione numquam. Molestiae omnis qui aliquid corporis qui.

Eaque aut aut inventore mollitia eum. Nihil et et repellat vel vel molestiae corrupti.

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. (++) 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
3
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
4
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
5
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
6
DrApeman's picture
DrApeman
98.9
7
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
8
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
9
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
10
Jamoldo's picture
Jamoldo
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”