As a few of you know, I have been working in a FP&A role at a F50ish company for a few months now. Through most of my undergrad, I was very naive and thought finance only pertained to capital markets. After I failed to get offers from both ER and IB at a few MM and boutique firms the spring before my graduation, I panicked. I began working at a start up that showed signs of failing about a year later, and had to reach out to my fledging network. I managed to get an interview at a few places, including the company where I am now.
There isn't a lot of hate for people working in corporate finance on these forums, which is great, but there isn't a lot of love either. I get that this is WallStreetOasis.com -- a site that has helped me out tremendously -- but some of you absolutely need to consider an alternative to the IB/ER path. Working where I am now is exactly where I want to be, given my circumstances. Here's why:
Pay/Benefits- All in you can expect to make between 55-65k, in a much less expensive area than NY. Since I am part of the CF rotation program, I receive a sizable promotion (with good work) every time I rotate. Our finance and accounting departments are completely separate and I do not have to do an accounting rotation if I choose not to. I'm not getting paid massive bonuses, but chances are the IB people aren't this year either. In CF, you're also not working more than 50 hours per week for 85% of the year, which leads me to my next item.
Work/Life Balance - I am rarely stressed and always well rested. My work hours are minimal and I only work weekends when I choose to login from home to keep updated on emails. There are pool and ping pong tables everywhere, cafes on every floor and massages are offered at every one of our campuses.
Quality of Connections- I interact with the senior directors of all business groups that I am assigned to. I joke with them, talk to them about non-work related items and receive career and rotational advice from them. No one I have interacted with has come off as pretentious or arrogant. Less senior people are more open to chatting with people who want to work for their firm and usually have an incentive to refer qualified students to the interview process.
Business School - Most of the highest ranked F500 companies will pay for business school if you want to go. If you don't want to stay with the company but want to get the MBA, you still get the name on your resume which greatly helps with admissions at top programs. Sure it's a stretch for Harvard or Wharton but I doubt it's an easy time getting in from the IB side either.
The bottom line is this: If you're at a target or a top non-target and have known that you've wanted to do IB since you were a freshman, then you should absolutely pursue getting into a BB or top boutique. But if you're like me, who came from a non-target and didn't know what I wanted to do with my career until I was a junior, you should put time into networking with some people at top F500 companies. There is plenty of upside in terms of quality of life, work/life balance and networking at a top Fortune500 company.
When your rotation is over, what do you see yourself doing?
Technically you can rotate indefinitely at the place where I work, but after the fourth rotation it's harder to get a promotion after your rotation is finished. Most of us who transfer to operations go into Sales & Marketing, Corporate development (Though I am told it is harder to get into) and treasury. You can also take "strategic" rotations where you are working with business partners to create pilot programs, analysis projects and marketing research. I'm too new to really know where I want to be.
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Nice post. So many people on this forum get major tunnel vision with GS/MS/JPM that they fail to realize finance is one of the broadest fields you can enter.
Even breaking into CorpFin is hard from my super super non target =/
This week I followed up to a couple contacts and was told to get back to them around late April.. Uh.. I NEED THE PIECE OF MIND NAOOOOOO
CF is always a great fall back option. I think most hard driving people are turned off by the "sane" work life balance, and therefore don't consider it. I got an ER offer but if not CF was always a consideration since that was the only OCR my school offered. If you can make it into corp dev more power to you but the thought of being a lifer in treasury makes me want to find the nearest bridge and jump.
And no offense as I agree CF is respectable, but your post makes it seem like your trying justifying how great you have it for your own peace of mind.
I think that too often we, including myself in the past, think that the only way to be successful, make money or have a good life is to go through the IBD route and that CF is like how you say -- a great fall back option. I'm trying to clarify that by saying if you come from a background like myself, the CF route is just fine before an MBA or even as a solid career path, as TLynch said above. There are other areas of finance besides working models until 3am.
Not all of us use free time to watch more movies or play more video games. I have a few side projects that I have the time for that are producing decent income for me.
StorIB - glad to see another CF person on this board. The thing for everyone to keep in mind is that each company (and rotational program) can be very different. Your's sounds like a great experience, assuming its a great brand name I'd encourage you to keep rotating to get more experiences.
A slight contrast to what you're saying - in the rotational program at my company it's almost impossible to avoid the accounting-based roles. You can definitely influence the roles that you're going to get, but you will almost definitely get some sort of FP&A role.
btw - hearing that you might go into Ops is pretty sweet. I'm currently Finance support for one of our Ops groups and it's pretty cool. I'm not 100% sure if my next role will be Finance or Ops (likely finance though).
Do you mind PMing me what company you're at? I'm always interested to learn more about the top companies.
The only thing to keep in mind is that salary progression in CF is likely to be a lot lower then IB/Consulting/Big 4.
"Ops" can be slightly different at different places. If you're looking for high finance - Ops isn't what you want. The ops people are essentially the support group for the financiers.
In corporate it is slightly different. At my company we lump manufacturing, supply chain, purchasing and a few other functions into Ops. When you realize that we are essentially a huge, global healthcare manufcaturing company those are extremely important roles.
We don't have an exact equivalent at my company, but one of the guys I present to fairly regularly would be like Tim Cook was at Apple 6 months ago. We are even more manufacturing focused than Apple and you can see how much Apple values the Operational roles.
Does the OP feel that the role would be similar at companies all up and down the F500? Any specific companies with good programs? Off the top of my head, I can only thing of GE, JNJ, LMT, and NOC.
LIFE and QCOM both have good ones in Cali.
Thanks for this,
One of the things you mentioned is that you still have enough time to work on "side projects that bring in extra income." To me, not having the time, or capability, to remain creative because of work (or working in IB) is one of my biggest fears. Staying entrepreneurial is one of my biggest fall back plans, I know that is not the same for everyone, though.
Also we all hear about the creepy bankers who cannot function on dates or with women. I've also heard of how your non finance friends stop calling you, you stop going to the gym, etc. To me, the extra 15-25K (not adjusted PPP) is not worth it.
I am waiting to hear back from an F500 in corp strategy, hopefully they come through.
I have been working in CF since graduation 3 years ago and am very happy with my decision. I started around $60K and have increased my salary by about 40% over 3 years which is not uncommon if you do a good job and look for opportunities. I work 8:30 - 5:15 most days with a few exceptions like budget season but even then it's usually 60 hours or so. While you're not going to get the 6 figure salary right out of school, you will have a life and what you do make goes much further in a place like Atlanta. My old boss, at 27, just got promoted and is making IB money while working ~50 hours a week. Also, taking vacation is encouraged and expected. I'm taking a week off to go to Europe this summer and my boss is excited for me and said to make sure I don't take my blackberry. For those looking to own a jet by age 30, CF is probably not for you and that's cool. If you want to make a nice living and enjoy life outside of work, I think it's something you should certainly consider. As a side note, we bring people from IB into our CorpDev group in the $100K+ range regularly.
"No one I have interacted with has come off as pretentious or arrogant."
THIS.
I hear so many stories of assholes in investment banking, chewing out analysts for no reason. This has not happened to me in my FP&A role, not even once.
Are you bored at your work? I'm starting a F500 rotational program and am worried i'm going to be extremely bored and that my b-school options will be severely limited.
How do you contact people in F500?
the question is op if you had to do it over again knowing you had a 100% chance of getting in gs or ms would you still take the corporate finance position, the answer you would give is no
was that a question or an answer?
do you see a question mark at the end of the sentence
BJM is right here. Believe it or not, there are a large amount of people from top business schools at these companies. They come here because they have a work/life balance and still maintain the ability to have a direct impact on business direction. As you get higher in the company -- particularly in senior management -- you can earn several million a year (total comp). I don't want to speak for those in IBD, but from what I've read and heard, opportunities to make that amount of money earlier in life aren't that much more frequent.
See above, of the people I have met, about half get the MBA paid for by our company and stay with us. The other half find work as CFOs at start ups and as associates at VC (both mm and to a lesser extent, larger firms). If you get into a top program, I doubt you will have too much trouble doing what you want to do.
Websites are good for this, but recruiting seasons are coming to an end for most places. There was no OCR at my school for this company and I purely got an interview through connects I made while networking. Apply ASAP because I know the economic conditions are affecting recruiting from my firm -- we are hiring less and less interns in finance. I've also heard from senior managers that the only way to get an interview for full time is to have some type of finance experience from an internship, too. My advice is to network hard. I received an offer for my position after I had been working for about a year.
I think Harvardgrad08 can speak more to this from a general perspective, but most CorpDev positions at my firm are for more senior people, so having 4-5 years of work experience and successful rotations will help you break in. There is some decent competition for the finance support positions for our CorpDev team because there is an opportunity to transfer into the ops if you do a good job.
It's going to be what you make of it. Cram in some volunteer hours, etc and make sure you can show steady progression at your place, but I'm not really an expert on MBA admissions. Keep in mind that you will most likely be supporting more senior level people, and those are the ones who have a higher chance of coming from good schools. Also know that not everyone is out to get the best education if they are happy where they are.
Absolutely some truth to this, but I also know from experience that the pay at MM and boutique firms for ER are pretty poor relative to the BB and top CF programs -- something to keep in mind.
That was blastoise being a retard as usual
Where does salary max out for a F500 CF person? Can you easily move, post-MBA, to IB or research, or, heck, PE and VC?
How do you apply for Corp Fin positions? I do not see any posted on company websites in terms of internships. Do F500 companies only do OCR?
Examples:
GE: http://www.ge.com/careers/students/fmp/index.html
JNJ: http://careers.jnj.com/sites/default/files/ldp/pdf/FLDP_v2.pdf
UTX: http://careers.utc.com/under_ft_flp.asp
Op you mentioned that your company recruits from IB for CorpDev. Are they typically BB or MM that come on, or does it completely vary?
If you're seeing "very few people", that means you're seeing some people go to decent MBA programs. It just means you have to perform really well, have a good outside-of-work activity, and do well on the GMATs. It's the same admissions formula for everyone, you just have to find a way to make your career and life fit into it.
Great post.
I did MM IB last summer and hated it. I was trying to balance my life with a girlfriend, working out, and a Summer Analyst role at that firm. I've been interviewing with VC firms recently, but have come to realize that I just want to live a healthy life, so I told them I'd like to scrap it and go for a CF role.
You all who think IB for the first 3 years should be a sweatshop, then it's the "golden road", is not true at all, MD's work their asses off at 40's of age... "Yeah but PE and HF will be our exit opps." Still... most of the financial services industry requires consistent scrutiny from people who's money you manage.
I'd rather be getting rest, eating well, and have less stress in my important physiological developing years (aka 20's) than getting no sleep and lots of stress to where I look like I'm 80 at the age of 50. PLUS, when you're 40 years old, you'll be an expert in your industry and people left and right (IB/Consulting) will want to hire you. I've seen it with many people, and it's generally ones who's family is well off (kids at college, wife of 20 years, etc.).
Live your life!
By setting standards. GS or bust.
This sounds like my reasoning for why I chose ER over IB... hours are great, pays better than CF and the exit opps are on par with IB.
Is it possible to get into a rotational program after you've already graduated?
Great post.
Everyone is sucked into the prestige / money of banking.. including myself.
It's all about your priorities in life. Money is important but nothing can replace my personal life and health. This being said, it's not like the pay in CF is terrible, especially if you excel and get promoted quickly.
I'm currently a BB IB analyst and hope to move into a corp dev / strategy role post banking. Can't think of many jobs that are better at a junior level in terms of pay / lifestyle.
It would be nice if someone could just compile a list of companies with FLDP that hire internally into corporate development/strategy. It's all well and good to be in love with Corp Fin but if u go through a rotational that hires mostly into treasury/accounting and want to be in development/strategy then what was the point? What I'm saying is. what companies take many internal FLDP ppl into their development/strategy position versus companies that mostly hire bankers for these roles. I would love to do FLDP and it would be nice to skip the IB grind but not if it boxes me in a treasury/accounting role.
That would be really helpful.
While banking sucks in many ways I must say that the amount you learn as an analyst probably trumps any other junior role in finance. So an analyst stint is probably worth it in the long run IMO.
And this is the main reason besides $ that people want IB. It's the best entry-level finance position you can get (without crazy connections, obviously.)
Great thread. I'd be interested in a list of FLDP/similar programs too. It seems like lists I find are never exhaustive and they contradict themselves.
Hi all, I've been reading through this thread and it is very helpful. I am a senior entering a FLDP with a top A&D company. One of my rotations includes Corporate Development among the standard FP&A, Internal Audit, Cash Mgmt, Treasury, etc. etc.
If one of my rotations is Corporate Development would that give me a better shot at landing in the Corporate Development role upon completion of the FLDP?
Thanks.
Absolutely, if you can work hard during the rotation and make some solid connections with your superiors, you'll have a better shot at "breaking in." Harvardgrad08 would have more info on this, but I know of a few people who have done it. It's also good to just experience all your rotations with an open mind -- you never know what you might like. And if you end up hating the CF experience, there is always MBA in a few years.
A few companies will allow recruit for accelerated leadership programs from top MBA schools. In these programs (at least the ones I know about) you are literally allowed to rotate where ever you want -- international, corporate development, marketing, internal consulting, etc (as long as it is somewhat specific to finance). The workstyle is dependent on your group and the company, but don't expect to work more than ~60 hours a week. The few programs that I know also have you come in at a pretty high level -- higher than a typical MBA by a few levels -- and pay very well.
Does anyone have any insight into what post MBA corporate finance is like? I am currently an MBA student at a top 20 program and will be interning at a f500 this summer in corporate finance. I came from a non finance background, so I am wondering if anyone can weigh in on what post MbA finance will be like in the terms that the original poster described. Thanks guys
Corporate finance is very underrated on boards like these. Work/life balance plus good, though not exorbitant pay, and low cost of living (depending on location) make it really attractive. Plus the hours you work are far less stressful since (surprise!) the people with sticks up their ass go work at the bulge brackets while the affable people that enjoy life go work in corporate finance. It's also more meaningful to work for a firm that "makes" something.
Corporate finance is like an easy/average class in college where there's not a ton of homework, your classmates are nice, and you can get an A without killing yourself. I liked those classes. And a 4.0 is a 4.0 lol.
I think it's also lost on people that you can make a ton of money in corporate if you're good. You can quite often be 30 and making $150K+, in a city with low cost of living (and with a ton of time on your hands, since you usually work 50 hours a week). Who do you think gets more ass, that guy, or the guy making $300K in NY working 75 hours a week?
The CEO of my dad's firm makes $30M a year, started out in corporate finance at the firm while in his 20s and worked his way up. My dad's boss makes $5M a year, etc. Look at the top people at these firms, they're all making 7 figures. Sure, they're all like 40 to 60, but they are also making more than or same as your typical MD (who aren't that young either), and they've had a much funner trip from A to B.
P.S. - Given the state of the financial services industry, expect comp to stay shitty for a long time, corp. fin. looks very attractive right now
You can be 30 and make much more than $150K at a corporation. I think you guys underestimate how much non-finance roles pay.
If you are doing a competitive management/strategy/marketing rotation at a good company out of a top MBA or Master's program, you can certainly make $150K or above, since these positions have to be competitive with people wanting to go into consulting. This is right out of business school, so people are in their late 20s generally, and of course the pay moves up from their as the person succeeds at the company and takes on more responsibility.
Sure, if you're doing accounting for a smaller company in a smaller city somewhere maybe you won't be making that much, but I would be seriously shocked if the company I'm thinking of is on the higher end of associate-level pay. These guys work hard, but it's not like they're ever getting called in to stay late on a Friday night.
I do think some people underestimate it (especially those still in college). Depends on what you're doing. I added the plus to signify it was an average, and not a limit. There are 30 year olds making $500K just like there are 30 year olds making $40K...in finance, marketing, accounting, whatever
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