New IBD Rankings
In light of the credit crunch, how would you now rank the bulge bracket banks in terms of their overall IBD?
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this is like the 10th time this topic has been posted. Rankings do not matter. They never will.
1)GS 2)JPM 3)MS 4)LEH 5)CS 6)Citigroup 7)MER 8)DB
Both GS & JPM had the lowest in writedowns and we were among best risk managed banks. CS was probably at number 3 until just recently when they announced a few more $billion in writedowns
JPM and BofA had the lowest writedowns as a percentage of capital. Both also picked up significant market share. GS is still the gold standard.
Erm..BofA picking up significant market share? what's your source? BoFA's IBD could be killed by the bank anytime now. Bankers are bleeding out of their system at X per second.
The previous poster is right. BoA is even thinking about spinning it's IBD business/division, etc off to focus on their commercial banking business
Hey student banker,... unless you are Brian Brille, lets not speak for the largest bank by market cap in the Country. I could really care less about who ranks what bank where, but I really hate you idiots spewing fake things. BofA was ranked #2 in High Yield, #1 in leveraged loans and #1 in Equity/Equity Linked and #6 GLOBALLY in fees YTD in 2008. Facts. Source: WSJ, Thomson. So yes, BofA is not Goldman, but clearly have faired better then most and CLEARLY have picked up market share.
It was not me who said that about spinning off their business. I did not mean any disrespect for BoA.
Go back to class.
BofA is one of the least prestigious and respected banks on wall st everyone knows that. bofa is high in fee rankings bc they have a huge balance sheet and finance deals which gives them lots of league table credit. they are rarely top left bc their advisory isnt valued highly. oh and all these financing are biting them in the ass as they are stuck with tons of leveraged loans that are now marked at cents on the dollar.
Not strongly supporting your argument by citing 2008 YTD numbers.
To "iambateman"... Your arguement about their hung lev. loans is invalid. BofA has the 2nd LEAST writedowns as a percent of deployed capital. (#1 is JPM)
to "ideating"... The op asked about TOP Banks in this environment. So I would say 2008YTD is valid.
So we have a 1st year sales and trading analyst and a consultant giving their "expert" opinion on Banks and their relative market positioning? Go fix someones supply chain and fetch a real traders coffee...
Although these rankings are arbitrary, I think Lehman at 4 is a bit high.
What the hell is with the ridiculous hostility? Is it possible to discuss this sensibly and post links to cited facts? Seriously, I know this is a pretty rough forum in general, but there is distinct difference between arguing your point and being a jackass in order to try to add validity to an argument...
Saying BofA is top tier is a JOKE. Simply interviewing there would tell you otherwise. Look at their attrition rates also...why do you think all those bankers are leaving BofA? Why are they laying off so many bankers?
BofA looks strong because:
A) Many banks are shunning debt deals due to liquidity issues, which makes it easy for BofA to "rank" #1 in those categories.
B) Activity in high fee yielding categories like M&A is way down, which was the bread and butter of real top banks like Goldman, MS, JPM, etc. This activity will eventually pick up again.
BofA is a great place to start a retail or corporate banking career. There are many, many better choices to start in i-banking though.
? Is this guy serious? I refuse to believe that someone without basic reading comprehension is a 1st year PE associate- I made no comment on BoA's positioning, just said that you could use a better source of data than something that spans only 3 months. What's with the BoA pole-riding? Even for a current or former employee it is too much.
I have said it before and I will say it again: BofA's IB practice isn't going away anytime soon.
People talk about layoffs, but I personally know several analysts who were recently directly promoted to associates. I believe BofA will only continue to grow into a top tier investment bank.
I agree, BofA banking won't go away. But, it won't be in the same league as GS/MS/JPM/MER/LEH/UBS/CS/Citi anytime soon either. Even struggling MER/Citi/CS/UBS/LEH will command premium to BofA in job preference.
Citi and UBS has really suffered a lot in terms of IB reputation in the current crisis. Both are not strong to begin with, and now....it's really going to the canines.
Puh-leez stop talking through your ass ->
Form is temporary, class is permanent, Citi and UBS are still very well respected i-banks throughout the WORLD
Just because some traders managed to loss these firms billions doesn't negate the fact that they are both very successful i-banks.
about prestige doesn't really confirm anything concrete except volatile and fragile egos. Couple of general comments for everyone to THINK ABOUT (myself included - so hold the scalpels, pls).
FOR THE BofA BASHERS - higher prestige bb banks (GS) recruit at the same top colleges as lower ones (BofA) - many former players from higher prestige banks now play at bbS in that lower end range - it is much more relevant for your personal career which group, at which bank - as w/ all schools, you'll find intelligent and "challenged" people all over the street my bottom line is...if you like high finance, chances are you like money. be more concerned about your paycheck than your bizcard. FOR THE BOFA BOASTERS - bofa is historically a stronger retail/commerc bank, unlike JPM or Citi - bofa is run by a historically retail/commerc bank leadership team, unlike JPM or Citi - bofa leadership has publicly expressed concern about its ibanking arm, unlike JPM/Citi - bofa has expanded into mortgages (CWHL) yet another consumer driven biz, unlike JPM/Citi my bottom line is....this should be much more valid concern than ranking or defending BofAs prestige. It hints to a longterm sideways (if not downward) business strategy for ibanking at the firm. This is not a guarantee, but it is the reason a timely exit is a valid consideration.
my 2c
Bank rankings are useless. Honestly there is not much difference among the top banks.
Rankings are for crybabies who need validation that their bank is the best.
BoA is not a BB. Sorry, not even close.
while i agree that b of a is generally inferior to the traditional bb banks, i will say that when i went to their superday, i met some associates, vps, and mds with really impressive backgrounds. they were all from ivy league undergrads and top b-schools, and many of them had experience at the elite investment banks.
am i wrong in thinking that b of a has some talented bankers, regardless of the bank's rep, or should i laught at the next b of a employee i meet?
I'd Laugh. They are barely even human.
Finance people have a quirky sense of humor. There are some banks that everyone in finance loves to shit on: BofA, Wachovia, and Jefferies are the first that come to mind. Why? Who knows, but probably because it gives a little validation to the pseudo "in" crowd.
All three of the banks above are respectable options, for different reasons. To Chelsea -- BofA has a lot of respectable bankers, including a lot of ex-DLJ and ex-Solomon Brothers (traders). While some areas are weak, some are very strong and actually do place well into private equity, etc. I'm not as familiar with Wachovia or Jefferies, but I would imagine certain groups also place well though likely more in the MM arena.
BofA definitely competes with JPM, GS, etc for a lot of deals. While the term "bulge" is subjective, they are clearly not a middle market bank. Take it as you will. Wachovia and Jefferies, though, are more in the MM with Wachovia on the higher end.
Seriously, ignore the "ranking" idea if you're new to finance. It's just funny/fun for those of us who don't actually take it seriously.
Kids still in college: Go back to beer pong. It's beyond nerdy to be on message boards senior year talking about M&A rankings, instead of chasing tail.
First years: You guys should be more worried about your job than worrying about BofA's prestige factor.
With that out of the way, according to headhunters, BofA is bulge bracket and has the same access / options to HHs as other top 10 banks do. If they have "almost" (may be too strong of a word)the same exit ops as other banks (depends on group) towards the top of the list, and pretty much the same bonuses, who gives a f?
Yeah, why would writedowns affect IBD rankings? IBD is an advisory service.
Santander.
1
WOOT
Top Investment Bank Ranking (Originally Posted: 08/06/2007)
Hi all, just want to pool together everyone's opinion/facts on the BBs and non-BBs and where they rank. Please list your top 5 (or more). You can rank them based on either 1). overall IBD strengh (prestige), 2). specific industry/sector coverage... , or 3). career opportunity/compensation. Specify on what basis you are ranking them for everyone's convenience.
Of course, you can always mix and match rank them.
Omg please not another one of these.
In terms of prestige: 1. Salomon Brothers 2. Drexel Burnham Lambert 3. Donaldson Lufkin Jenrette 4. Warburg Dillon Read 5. Paine Webber
what about wachovia and suntrust?
KillerMike didn't u missed Pierce & Pierce? IMO it's one of the best!
It's about time some one asked for IB rankings on an IB forum. Finally!
oh yea! i second that! Pierce & Pierce is pretty prestigious. Also, JT Marlin should be considered top 5 at least
1 - the one that poaches you
2 - the one that tried to poach you and failed
3 - the one that hired you in the first place
equal last - everyone else
1) Goldman's Semen 2) Dr. Morgan Stanley, Family Practice 3) Blacktoner Incorporatitatum 4) Ford Motor Company 5) Procter and Gamble 6) Bill's Shoe Shining Delivery Business, LLC
how the hell is this funny, douche? lamest post of the year.
If forgot
7) Master P Industries
These are the best banks in the world, bar none.
i heard the starting salary at bills shoe was like 90+ can anyone confirm?
these replies are lamer than the original post
Any firm with a huge Charlotte Presence
all of you should have looked for a job in comedy instead of banking
Goldmans semen - i get - it's like you took a bank and added semen to it to be funny. Fucking bril.
goldman's nut sachs semen brothers black c0ck douche bank
mm...can't think of any others
shitigroup
Top 5 I-Banks?!?! (Originally Posted: 04/11/2007)
Alright so we all know Goldman is the best place to be and then Morgan Stanley..... What are the next 3 banks in line after them if you just look at overall prestige and overall groups?
I would say the next three, in no particular order, would probably be Bear Stearns, Lehman, and JP Morgan. This is in regard to overall prestige as a bank, rather than division-specific stuff. Naturally, Citigroup and BofA would probably be in the top five when it came to stuff like corporate finance, and Morgan Stanley and maybe JP Morgan would have trouble making the list in fixed income trading.
Lehman, JPM, Citi.
i would say Goldman, MS, JPM, Citi, UBS
throw up between UBS and Lehman... not too sure about Bear Sterns. But this is just my opinion on "overall prestige".
look at vault guides, they have prestige rankings
1 GS 2 MS 3 LB/Citi 4 JPM 5 ML 6 CS 7 UBS
not another one of these
London 1. GS 2. MS 3. UBS 4. JPM 5. Citi
Maybe Merrils but I'm American bank biased.
Replace UBS with Lehman, especially in the US.
For London.
Who the hell cares. I'd rather be at CS Sponsors or CS LA etc than JPM / ML / LEH anything.
Sorry, I'm giving you too hard of a time. CS is a nice bank, but I don't think many in New York would think of it in the top five. Then again, natural gas prices tend to go up and down based on NYC weather, so our perspective may be flawed.
BoA Wells Fargo FBR
This is a dumb discussion. GS is the best, and MS is the next best due to the fact that at both of these banks, pretty much every single group is very solid / an industry leader. After that, it's group dependent. Each bank has strong groups (CS Sponsors, Lehman Consumer/Retail, UBS Consumer) and each bank has not so hot groups. If you have offers for everything but GS and MS, your best bet is to try and secure a group specific offer from one of the banks (if I had to pick, I'd try to get CS to give me sponsors...I'd rather be there than anywhere else non-GS/MS/top boutique from an exit opportunity perspective).
As for ranking the BBs besides GS/MS, everyone has their own highly biased opinion and it varries by school (my school thinks highly of XYZ bank, friends at other colleges tell me ZYX bank is viewed more favorably at their school).
Just as an aside, my comments above refer to ranking the bulge bracket firms since that's what all of the posts on here are trying to do. But since the original poster asked about "i-banks" specifically, the "top 5" would really include GS first, and then MS, Greenhill, Lazard, and Blackstone in no particular order (maybe Evercore above one of those, depending on who you ask).
agree on that it is group dependent. not sure if you can secure a spot in a group beforehand, though. they may promise you will be placed in your top choice, but theres no guarantee with so much demand for those spots in top groups.
1.GS 2.MS 3.Leh 4.Citi 5.UBS
btw, im curious how group placement actually works. sometimes theres a huge difference in quality across groups within the same bank (in terms of deal flow, exit ops, etc). you may land an offer at a reputable BB, but still be placed onto a shitty group and have an overall shitty experience.
and heres my personal rankings if you care:
why is wachovia not on any list?!?
overall
BB
I view Lazard and Blackstone M&A equal to MS from an exit opportunity perspective. I view Lazard equal to MS from an overall quality of deal experience (i.e. good, interesting deals and amount of responsibility given to analysts).
As for group specific offers: a promise from HR to put you in a specific group probably doesn't mean much. HOWEVER, if you can actually meet the group you want to be in and multiple people in that group say they like you (and seem to mean it) and that they will get you in their group come full-time or summer, I think it's highly likely that you'll end up in that group. I know of several people who went about it this way and it worked out. But getting HR to promise you a group doesn't mean much, since their goal is just to get you to accept the offer. But an individual banking group really couldn't care less whether you accept an offer, unless of course they want you in their group. So if they're going to request you, they'll be upfront about it.
But for top groups (GS TMT, MS M&A, any M&A/Sponsors), wouldn't EVERYONE be trying to network their way in? I feel like there's only so much you can do, esp. since these groups know they can pick and choose who they want on their group. Also, don't returning summer interns get first dibs in placement?
DB's lev fin is good, again, its group dependent
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