President Obama just called last year's Wall Street bonuses "Outrageous", despite being 44% lower than 2007:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28916936/
While we're on the subject, here's a nifty breakdown of 2008's bonuses:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/28/wall-street-bonu…
Guys, I'm telling you, get ready to be scapegoated to high Heaven. Wall Street is becoming the most convenient whipping post in recent history. At least it was fun while it lasted.
| +134 | How to stop feeling like shit for not making it in IB? | 52 | 40m | |
| +99 | If Tik Tok is forced to sell, what banks do you think would be involved in the deal? | 46 | 46s | |
| +66 | Updated LA Banking Scene (2024) | 49 | 3h | |
| +54 | Why Is It Called Investment Banking? | 19 | 13h | |
| +38 | Ranking banks that went under | 19 | 7h | |
| +31 | UBS Actual Buyside Exits 2024 Post-Integration | 9 | 2d | |
| +29 | A strategy for SA applicants late to the game like myself | 12 | 10h | |
| +28 | Relevance of A-Levels for U.K. London recruiting | 21 | 45m | |
| +26 | Series 79 Help / Tips to Pass The First Attempt | 11 | 1d | |
| +25 | Burnt Out M&A ASO | 10 | 13m |
Career Resources
Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling.
LOL! You greedy f*cks are lucky the government bailed you out. And you have the nerve to still want a bonus? FOR WHAT? Losing billions of dollars, crashing the economy, needing a government bailout to continue business?
Ahhh.. the familiar tones of the strident indignation of the ignorant.
TW Pepper, You'd better get off your boss's computer. Break's over. There's a table of six that wants to order dessert. Chili's doesn't pay you to cruise Wall Street forums.
Just curious. Do you think you could tell me what exactly it is that investment bankers do?
I would love to hear a good answer in your own words.
get to know the business before bash other people
I feel most sorry for analysts who started in 2008 August and are going to be done 2010 August, especially if you did the analyst role to save money for starting your own company or going to grad school.
oh, so you should get a bonus for losing money? you're ignorant.
Greed is an obligation on Wall Street.
What do you even do Punjabi? Your posts are always overgeneralized and it seems to me that you your overcompensating for eating too much curry.....
Well this guy in the thread called me stupid!
Slowly...step away from the pitchfork
I hate how it's a "bonus" and not considered as the equivalent of someone else's (in another industry) salary. I understand there's reasons for doing this, but people shouldn't think of bonuses as actual bonuses. Bonuses are more or less part of the total comp package and should not be seen as "bonus." That way non finance people would stop bitching about the outrageous "bonus" on Wall Street, since they would only be high total comps or salaries.
Yes, it's all Wall Street's fault. Let's not blame the 200,000+ people who took out big loans that amounted to way more than what they were making because they thought they "deserved" it for all the struggle and hard work they've gone through in life. Not saying we're angels, but Wall Street didn't start this.
Wall Street has always been the scapegoat. Face it, even in good times, no one praises Wall Street, they just forgo complaining. Wall Street will never be liked by the general population.
Let's say you're a hot shot PWM guy at Merrill. You're having a monster year, your clients have never been happier, you get referrals and more clients, build up your book of business. Your clients (all with net worths of 1-5 MM) look to you for advice on everything from estate planning to college funds and you deliver. You provide great, unbiased advice that maximizes value to them and they just couldn't be happier.
Markets crash, Merrill is soon to be bought out by BoA. Do you deserve a bonus?
Exactly.
Another hypothetical: you were born in America, you live in America, and you've voted in at least half of the elections in which you were eligible, and you work gasp 40 hours a week. Do you deserve a million dollar no money down loan, that if you default on the government will pay for you?
How is it that these two answers got reserved?
Remember that little piece of legislation (Community Reinvestment Act) which practically forced banks to issue subprime loans? Yeah, who drafted that? The Democrats. The law interfered with market forces which would have otherwise prevented as many subprime loan issuances. It's not Wall Street's fault; we should collectively blame whoever caused this market interference: the drafters and supporters of this initial legislation.
Obama's blaming Wall Street (as is every other ignorant American), but let's not forget what McCain was saying on the campaign trail: "The GREED and CORRUPTION of Wall Street will not continue under my administration." McCain was saying the same shit Obama is saying now, and McCain accepted Wall Street donations just like Obama did. If McCain was president today, he would be saying the same thing that Obama is saying.
LOL, so banks weren't being greedy, they were just desperately trying to comply with legislation from the 70's? That's so f*cking ridiculous.
Although originally established in the 1970's, the CRA was strengthened during the 1990's. Many believe it was this strengthening that encouraged banks to loosen lending standards and make loans to people who would otherwise be unqualified.
And I didn't say that banks weren't being greedy. Commercial banks made mortgages available to people who shouldn't have qualified. Investment banks packaged these mortgages to make money off them. There's greed everywhere on Wall Street, but greed isn't inherently bad.
No matter what people are going to hate what they don't understand. Wall street is just like Vegas. People think wall street is just this magic slot machine they can put their nickels into and it will rain gold on them. We just don't answer to the mafia.....well now we do I guess.
I think the bigger issue is the word "bonus," it gives a message of above and beyond what is justified and obviously implied performance based. If Doctor's were paid a base of 150K and a "bonus" of 500K, would you say they dont deserve their bonuses because flu occurrences increased 3 fold this year?
Bankers do not, for their work, deserve a 55K base salary. There is no way in hell ANYONE will work 100 hours a week for 55K a year.
The bottom line is there are an infinite number of factors which lead up to this financial mess. I used take a shortcut to the highway a few years back, and I would drive through a pretty run down neighborhood with brand new Escalades, Mercedes, and BMWs in the driveways. Wall Street didn't exploit those people into buying 70-thousand dollar cars with a 30K income. When I drove through the middle class neighborhood 2 out of every 3 hours were being renovated, extended, redone with stone facades and nice stone driveways. Did Wall Street make these people refinance their 300K houses to take out another 100K to renovate? No. I've read all the "horror" articles about a 90 year old ladies with a 900 a month income and a house she's owned since 1940 who was duped into refinancing her home for a $6000 a month mortgage, that wasn't Wall Street either.
Everyone wants to party it up in the good times and start pointing fingers when the hangover comes around.
What Wall Street is responsible for is creating a cluster-fuck of derivative securities and neglecting to do due-diligence when they were securitizing MBS. And for that HF's are losing huge amounts of money, some investment banks have fallen and other have taken huge write downs. The majority of bankers make their money transacting businesses and transacting securities. They are neither buyers, nor sellers. The bankers responsible for securitizing MBS have paid by losing a shit load of money by not doing proper DD. The bankers responsible for trading MBS for prop books have paid by losing their jobs, and destroying the leveraged prop desk model, essentially destroying their job.
The CDS clusterfuck, is something which is Wall Street's fault, but it should definitely be at least somewhat regulated, at least through some sort of clearinghouse to prevent such a disproportionate naked markets. But again, if MBIA is now saying they want CDS exposure, who's fault is it? MBIA's? or the company servicing them and doing what they are paid to do?
Exactly what I was trying to get at.
All I have to contribute is "We are Gods among mortals, we cannot be questioned and we will never be understood..."
TW Profile: TW is a wannabe banker... he recently joined WSO as he wanted to test the waters about what banking is really about... he is currently insecure about his choice and trying to reaffirm his rejection from the elite class called wall street by trashing the reputation and hoping others on this blog would join him... PS wrong place to make your insecure comments available...
TW has never seen a model (neither excel nor female) and the only club he's been in is the "I wanabe a banker" club at his community school...
I ask the we please pass the hat around for TW...
And we know how TW hates those
TW has never seen a model (neither excel nor female) and the only club he's been in is the "I wanabe a banker" club at his community school...
I ask the we please pass the hat around for TW...[/quote]
I am sure TW has been to Sam's club a few times with his mom.
I am sure TW has been to Sam's club a few times with his mom.[/quote]
HAHA!!!!!!
No MezzCat, I will not participate in any redistribution of wealth, especially not for a tool like TW. Sorry TW: you gotta earn it like the rest of us.
haha classic response!!!
Noone likes Wall Street; even when things get good again, it will be a place that is despised by the masses.
this kind of stuff is so scary...
Go talk to your average American who lived way above his means and took out a mortgage that he could not afford. The biggest problem in this country is the huge majority of people who are just plain lazy and stupid. Your average American is 40 lbs overweight and has something like $5K in credit card debt. Lazy. Most Americans can not name the capital of Montana, much less explain what is going on with the markets and who is to blame. Stupid.
These same people heard about a great deal over at the bank (Wells Fargo, Capital One, etc. also known as a COMMERCIAL bank may I add) where they could mortgage a $1MM house on their $60k/year salary. Come on people, I don't care if the mortagage banker (aka COMMERCIAL banker) promises you that you can afford this, use your f-ing brains. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
I cannot deny the fact that Wall Street did play a partial role in the credit crunch, but let's be honest, if the average person (who is now blaming Wall Street for everything) was smarter, they would never have taken out a ridiculous loan in the first place. And if you REALLY must blame a group of insititutions, take a look at the commercial bankers in all of this. People are just dumb when it comes to understanding the issue at hand.
And adding onto what dan said, INVESTMENT banking bonuses are a part of total compensation, not a bonus in the traditional sense of the concept. Granted, I do believe bankers should take a bonus cut given the poor performance of the overall market and thus, each company's health, but to naively blame the crisis on Wall Street and then say that bankers should not get any bonus at all is just ridiculous.
I think we're done justifying our salaries to mere mortals...
I motion to mock TW for the rest of the post...
Please join me...
The thing is Obama needs to be careful what he says. He will end up biting the hand that feeds...ER contributes to his campaign.
until we see actual actions taken, I'm taking what Obama says as just rhetoric for popular support.
Bonus, variable compensation, doesn't matter what you call it. The truth of the matter is that it is so incredibly easy for people to be jealous / upset at the size of wall street bonuses.
The truth is, many groups are responsible for the current economy, Wall Street included. Everyone has and will continue to point fingers until they are blue in the face because there are no clear cut answers.
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
I love that senators, who make 4x the national average each year, and a president, who makes more than 10x the national average salary, have the audacity to scold anyone else for their compensation. Last I checked, the federal government hasn't exactly been earning their keep either.
If you've got such a big problem with Wall Street compensation, why don't you go find yourself a finance job? Oh wait, nowhere will hire you? Whine about it elsewhere.
Wow. Bonuses last year were miniscule compared to bonuses of years past. I mean, wall street bonuses might be an unfathomable dream for poor people, but for Wall street, last year was a pittance.
elan and bankerchic, great posts.
This is a bit of a stretch, wouldn't blaming bankers (esp. the analysts and associates) be like blaming those who directly or indirectly invested in Madoff's ponzi scheme? I mean, they're the idiots for not doing their due diligence...
Obama is just saying what so much of the ignorant public wants to hear to make him look like a "man for the people". They want someone other than themselves to be blamed, and who else is more convenient than those that have worked hard (not that they care about that) and make a good living.
The next 4-8 years are going to be gauged by perception, not reality. All Obama has to do is say something and the vast majority of the public will agree with it. Most of his public addresses will be dumbed down and altered so everyone can understand it and agree with what he says.
Wow... lots of intellectual masturbation going on here - someone get a towel to clean up this big, sticky mess of astute observations.
Exactly, poor people suck.
"TW Profile: TW is a wannabe banker... he recently joined WSO as he wanted to test the waters about what banking is really about... he is currently insecure about his choice and trying to reaffirm his rejection from the elite class called wall street by trashing the reputation and hoping others on this blog would join him... PS wrong place to make your insecure comments available...
TW has never seen a model (neither excel nor female) and the only club he's been in is the "I wanabe a banker" club at his community school...
I ask the we please pass the hat around for TW..."
You got me all figured out. I'm poor, I went to community college, I have never made a financial model, nor could I since I lack the smarts to do so.
"Just curious. Do you think you could tell me what exactly it is that investment bankers do?"
Just curious, do you think it is appropriate for a firm that is
a)losing billions b)would otherwise be bankrupt if not for a public bailout
to be handing out bonuses?
The guy has a point.
Calling it like it is.
He also has no clue how the investment banking industry, as a whole, works.
"Wow... lots of intellectual masturbation going on here - someone get a towel to clean up this big, sticky mess of astute observations." - this is classic.
TW - i think the sandbox is the other way.
frustrated americans : wall street :: wso monkeys : TW Pepper
I don't think you need to take SATs for community college, TW probably didn't get it
Your latest reply makes you look really stupid, drexel.
Houstonoilman, your post doesn't make sense. Do you even know what Punjabi is? It's a language. Secondly, I was referring to a comment by the author of the book; "Liars Poker."
Of course the president is outraged.
If he said nothing about the bonuses, there would be a huge uproar from the American people. The phone lines of US senators offices have exploded during the past few days with angry Americans calling to vent about the wall street bonuses.
What he says IS true, but the other side of me still wants the bonuses...sorry.
If you really think that Investment Bankers shouldn't be blamed for the crisis, and that employees at those Investment banks shouldn't be punished for it, you don't really understand how capitalism works. In capitalism when a company makes mistakes, they go out of business and everyone who works for that company loses their jobs.
Somehow, Investment Banks that lost almost every dollar they had convinced the government to give them money. In a capitalist society, it really doesn't make sense for the government to do this. Even though I am part of this mess, I still understand why people are pissed that Merrill gave out bonuses. I still can't understand how that exec who was employed there for like 2 months got 25 million, 1% of the TARP money Merrill got. It really is sickening. The government is being used like some rich girls dad, just keeping on handing over money instead of slapping the investment banks in the face and letting them die. Merrill deserved to die, obviously, losing 15 bil in a quarter. And what was so bad about Lehman going under. Nothing bad really happened except a bunch of Lehman bankers losing their jobs. And the good parts of Lehman are being sold off nicely.
I feel pretty bad about all of this, but to be honest, no one at Merrill should have been paid bonuses. It just makes no sense for them to be paid when their company is losing money.
To the complaining wall street moguls:
do you honestly think that financial workers' comp package are the only ones going down?
across all sectors, we are seeing layoffs and comps go down as much as companies legally can push them.
so yes, I think it is a logic consequence of economic meltdown.
I think TW is a tea delivery boy at a call center in Idaho where people call to complain about their potatoes....
I think you may have a niche there TW... I'm sure u can merger to potatoes, maybe even LBO one but you may have to check with your locacl branch manager to see if you could obtain some of the financing... Unfortuantely our debt fund does not do micro-cap deals...
I also think Obama was an investment banker in his previous life
I'm counting on Obama to be a man of words, not action, when it comes to this subject.
Obama wasn't an investment banker but his chief of staff Rohm Emanuel was a managing director at Wasserstein Perella. Somehow Obama doesn't seem to have brought his populist indignation around to Emanuel pulling in 16.2mm over two years.
On a side note, Emanuel is the definition of a badass MD. He served in the IDF for kicks, and Ari Gold is based on his brother
The best of Ari Gold:
I tend to think that Obama was 'outraged' at the high profile bonuses given out. I am talking the multi-million bonus. That is easy to get upset over.
As far as the capitalism thing goes, new companies made of the same employees would just pop up since what the firms are providing is useful.
Furiousgeorge: let's say there's a company with two divisions: one division makes baby toys, and the other makes widgets. The baby toys are found to contain toxins which make a few hundred babies sick, and of those few hundred, a few babies die. People stop buying the baby toys, the division loses money, and the public is outraged.
Should the entire company go bankrupt? Should all employees lose their jobs? Should employees of the widget division not receive bonuses for their hard work? Well, if it were my business, if the brand of the baby toys is damaged beyond repair, I would axe the baby toy division and keep the widget division. I would be forced to take a write down on the baby toy division, which would cause a significant loss on my income statement. The company as a whole would look bad, but really, the loses were isolated to one division.
The same thing is happening on Wall Street. Do you think M&A investment bankers caused this mess? The people who sell companies and raise capital for companies had absolutely nothing to do with it. They work in the widget division. The people who packaged these toxic mortgages together work in a completely separate division! Why should the bonuses (which are similar to sales commissions in investment banking) of the employees in the widget division be impacted?
"Why should the bonuses (which are similar to sales commissions in investment banking) of the employees in the widget division be impacted?"
Because they chose to work for poor leadership. If they don't know what their employer actually does (e.g. renegade fixed income traders), they bear the company's ills whether or not they caused them.
Don't work for a company that buys overpriced shit. And if they do, stop it. Otherwise you're to blame.
"Don't work for a company that buys overpriced shit. And if they do, stop it. Otherwise you're to blame."
That's a really slippery slope. If you honestly believe you can justify "blaming" the M&A banker who works for the investment bank which "caused" this mess, then I can justify "blaming" anyone who lives in the country in which the investment bank is located. After all, if you live in the US, you surely agree with every decision that the government makes, otherwise you wouldn't be living here, right? So because you live in the US, you support Obama and all his decisions.
Just because you work for a bank does not mean you agree with every decision management makes. Frankly, you have no control over it. If they buy overpriced shit, good luck trying to put a stop to that.
Golf clap for F9. And MrDouche, well... I actually don't have to do anything, the name says it all.
MrDouche's last bonus consisted of the warm embrace of another man's ejaculate.
“We won’t arrive at a situation where there are no bonuses,” Stephen Green, chairman of HSBC Holdings Plc, said at a press conference in Davos today. “There are always parts of companies that are profitable, and if somebody’s been working in a profitable business in a market where bonuses are a normal part of compensation, it’s difficult sometimes to say you won’t have any bonuses in that business.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axmX3rJ5Nur0
I would not blame the M&A banker for the collapse, but only their decision work at a poorly managed company. That decision is surely different than changing one's citizenship.
It is easy to leave a shit company and work for a good firm, or better, to start your own company. Those that choose to stay and get small bonuses have only themselves to blame. They've chosen to work for crap companies despite ample opportunities elsewhere.
Besides, it is still much too easy to get into IB--the industry needs some attrition; virtually anyone with an online degree can become an analyst. Even still.
I really like this video blog article by Henry Blodget and Aaron Task at TechTicker:
Quote:
Furiousgeorge: let's say there's a company with two divisions: one division makes baby toys, and the other makes widgets. The baby toys are found to contain toxins which make a few hundred babies sick, and of those few hundred, a few babies die. People stop buying the baby toys, the division loses money, and the public is outraged.
Should the entire company go bankrupt? Should all employees lose their jobs? Should employees of the widget division not receive bonuses for their hard work? Well, if it were my business, if the brand of the baby toys is damaged beyond repair, I would axe the baby toy division and keep the widget division. I would be forced to take a write down on the baby toy division, which would cause a significant loss on my income statement. The company as a whole would look bad, but really, the loses were isolated to one division.
The same thing is happening on Wall Street. Do you think M&A investment bankers caused this mess? The people who sell companies and raise capital for companies had absolutely nothing to do with it. They work in the widget division. The people who packaged these toxic mortgages together work in a completely separate division! Why should the bonuses (which are similar to sales commissions in investment banking) of the employees in the widget division be impacted?
I believe that when you have a job at a massive conglomerate that this is part of your job. When you accept an IBD at Merrill for M&A you have to take into account everything that Merrill does. So yes I think the maker of widgets should be punished. Because when the baby toys maker is doing well, the maker of widgets is being rewarded at a higher rate. So when the times are bad in other parts of the company, the times should be bad for the maker of widgets. THats how corporate conglomeration works. The M&A bankers didn't lose the money, but it was their previous profits that fueled the boom in CDO trading at Merrill, and when their CEO decided to go into that market and everyone agreed with him, he put the company at risk.
All of you talking all this shit about unearned bonuses would surely return your bonus to shareholders if you received one right?
A company doesn't do well, and now its a shitty company.
I'm glad to see you actually live in the real world. Anyone who says "its your fault for working for a shitty company" is no older than 15. I'm sure the world would be a beautiful place if people left their jobs because they felt like their company made a mistake along the course of the last 18 months to go work for a company comprised of infallible managers where nymphs and fairies frolicked through the hallways. Shit... you could even think happy thoughts and fly out the windows.
CNN: 'Angry senator wants pay cap on Wall Street 'idiots''
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/30/executive.pay/index.html
Are you kidding me? Don't people realize that almost all presidents have a negative net income after paying for all the shit they aren't allowed to expense? If obama is so confident that there is no reason for bonuses, I vote he sends the army in and completes the nationalization of our banks. See how the economy fares when we have low paid civil servants running things. But at least they won't be getting bonuses!
We may be talking about two different things: who should take the blame, and who should suffer the consequences. If we are talking about who is to blame, the M&A bankers had nothing to do with it. No blame there. With regard to suffering the consequences, in theory, the M&A bankers should suffer no consequences because they played no role, but in reality, they will suffer consequences via lower bonuses because of the general economic slow-down caused by their banking brethren (the packagers of CDOs). In reality, everyone (all consumers) will suffer the consequences.
Its was my understanding that the president pays for little to nothing. Transportation, food, entertainment, vacations, are all paid for and their 400K is pretty much play money.
You are correct.
I think the bonuses at the higher levels are a bit over the top. Like Thain, O'Neil getting 50-80 million in bonuses is pretty retarted. That should be regulated and not the bonuses of analysts ans associates.
Recently Obama capped salaries of his staff members. If he thinks times are tough why doesn't he give up his 400k salary along with Biden's salary. Also be mindful everyone that there is the emergence of legislation that would cap S&P 500 CEO's pay at 100x the lowest salaried employee.
How many of you nitwits bought your liberal professors' bullshit and voted for this weak-ass crew? I remember a bunch of you Obama cheerleaders getting hot under the collar on any one of the numerous times I called "The Exalted One" out on bullshit policies prior to the election.
I remember being stunned at how many of you supported him, and not being able to understand (I still don't, frankly) how anyone on Wall Street could support a socialist. Now you're going to reap the whirlwind.
This assbag McCaskill is just the tip of the iceberg. 400 Grand??? I wouldn't watch two monkeys fuck for 400 Grand a year as a BSD. Guess what, assholes? She's playing for your team. Let's see how you like all the "change" when it comes to bonus season this year!
Some of you probably spent more than 400 Grand on your education just to get a job on Wall Street, and then you pulled the lever for Obama and cut your own throat. I call that poetic justice.
but I believe the president is supposed to cover his own clothes, food and entertainment in the private residence, his children's school and most other "personal" expenses. Their compensation also was only 200k until Clinton changed it in his final term, which probably means it is less likely presidents will go in to debt. I'm not saying they spend a massive amount, but it is not difficult to burn through that little money (and they still pay taxes). Nobody runs for president for the money; banking doesn't quite have the same intrinsic appeal
To your other point about voting for Obama hurting my wallet, a long time ago I vowed to never vote for someone solely based on how it would effect my finances. I voted for Obama because I think that he will help the greater majority of Americans than McCain would've, and also because Palin is a retard. Sure my bonus will likely never be as big as kids who were analysts in 2002-2007, but I'll do fine. At this point I'm more interested in finance than in the money I'll be making. Obviously my 80k base package is very nice, but I'm just looking for experience right now anyway. But thats just me. I don't fault anyone for voting for McCain because his tax policy would help them, that just makes sense. I cared more about Obama's education policy and international appeal than about his tax policy.
But as I said thats just me. As you said you wouldn't watch 2 monkeys fuck for 400,000 , so i guess to each his own.
let's see how much you like that 80k pay package when there's no deal flow left because all your MDs jumped ship.
think more a 10k severance as your bank shuts down its banking division.
I think it is ridiculous that ANYBODY makes a bonus of more than a 2 - 3 hundred thousand, let alone have a salary of more than $500k. What if plumbers decided that they wanted to charge that much, then then dentist, then the grocery man, then the postal delivery guy. Pretty soon, nobody would be able to afford anything.
Wtf are you talking about?
Yea, communism is the way to go man.
So...if we get paid like the president, then we should all get better benefits and a private jet.
Also, does anyone remember what happened to zimbabwe when they kicked out the farmers and put unskilled government workers in their place to run a vital industry? I believe it was somewhere around 9,000,000% inflation as i recall.
Please try to refrain from being retarded on this thread. I already established that your boy McCain was ALSO criticizing Wall Street for its GREED and CORRUPTION. Remember that shit? On the campaign trail, just weeks after accepting gobs of Wall Street donations, he was spouting off about how he was going to put an end to years of greed and corruption on Wall Street. Others have already established that Obama's words are just that: words.
Voting for Obama is not the same as voting for this McCaskill cunt. They are two different people. Voting for a democrat doesn't mean you believe everything the democratic party believes. Voting for a democrat doesn't even mean that you believe everything that particular candidate believes.
Come on. We've been over this. Do you agree with the bailout? Did you agree with absolutely EVERY policy Bush stood for? Even if you did, and even if you believe in absolutely everything the republican party stands for, you must at least concede that there are people who do not whole-heartedly believe in everything either part stands for. The world isn't black and white.
"I think it is ridiculous that ANYBODY makes a bonus of more than a 2 - 3 hundred thousand, let alone have a salary of more than $500k. What if plumbers decided that they wanted to charge that much, then then dentist, then the grocery man, then the postal delivery guy. Pretty soon, nobody would be able to afford anything."
Hands down the most ridiculous thing that was every posted on WSO.
Second.
Third
ever, not every.
I'm not being a good example for aspiring monkeys. ATD
more importantly, who the heck is "the grocery man"?
but what does that have to do with Obama? Is it Obama's responsibility to make sure that you have a job even tho your company ran itself into a wall? Its kinda what I don't get about this message board's bashing of Obama. You want to keep your jobs, but also criticize him for being socialist. Bonuses should be lowered when the government bails out a company that has failed, because those bonuses helped it fail.
I don't know, I'm out.
furiousgeorge, I didn't say anything about "Obama's responsibility".
I was merely pointing out that you seem particularly happy with your job package, and that the politician you supported may very well help you lose it.
Enjoy the "experience".
The government purchased preferred equity, so essentially they are investors.
Since when did preferred equity holders get voting rights?
F-9,
Thanks for the chuckle. My boy McCain. As if.
McCain and Obama are two sides of the same vile coin. While I found his cynical Palin pick and the ensuing media circus mildly amusing, I certainly didn't vote for him.
One of my last acts as an American resident (I moved to France two days after the election) was to pull the lever for Ron Paul. By the grace of God, my last state of residency actually had him on the presidential ballot so, for the first time since 1992 and H. Ross Perot, I actually got to vote my conscience instead of choosing the lesser of two evils.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/15f37800-ef05-11dd-bbb5-0000779fd2ac.html
That fucking idiot Thain ruined it for all of us
Not that this wasn't already in the works, but he made the fervor much, much worse
should not be paying bonuses at all... period. of course, this is from a very subjective "moral" view and your mileage may vary. the treasury was stupid enough to pay for preferred shares and therefore has not right to dictate bonuses. banks like DB or Barclays Cap have done the right thing (at least for now in my view) by not taking the bailout money and being held to what their respective governments think bonuses (or buying corp jets) should be. But, to reiterate, if banks that have taken bailout money pay exorbitant (as seen by non-WS folks) bonuses, they are just inviting trouble - it seems extremely unfair to the public at large (even those who claim to be libertarians/conservatives etc) and with a left-leaning party in power...
I just spent the last few hours reading all the related WSJ articles and, more importantly, the comments posted to them. It is absolutely staggering the number of people who have adopted the "burn wall street to the ground" mentality. The ratio of attack:defend wall street feels as though its 9:1. In many of the cases, the people seeking "justice" are completely unaware of what an investment bank is/does, yet some call for throwing wall street bankers in jail.
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
Comments on dealbook are also ridiculous. I read a post about a lady comparing Wall Street bonuses to her bonus as a part-time employee at Wal-Mart.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50U0R320090131
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Obama administration is not likely to impose tougher restrictions on executive pay on most firms receiving aid under the government's $700 billion financial rescue program, the Washington Post reported on Saturday.
Citing a source familiar with the administration's deliberations, the Post said officials are concerned that harsh limits could discourage some firms from asking for aid.
God forbid a bank stand on its own two feet and tell the government to get fucked. They want all the banks to be beholden to them. Scary time to be an American.
I agree, you really have to quit the ad hominem on Obama. It makes you look like you can't form a good argument. I can barely get a handle on your views because you never really explain them. You just go on the attack. This is a good topic you started, don't ruin it. I think at this point you hate America more than the French! Haha.
What ad hominem, exactly? Everything I've ever attributed to Obama is a direct quote. Don't blame me if your guy is beginning to do everything he set out to do, including redistribution of wealth. I've actually credited him with being honest about what he believes. It's the jackasses who voted for him that are to blame.
As for my views, they are really quite simple:
Before you go thinking I'm a Bush fan, I think he was one of the worst Presidents in U.S. history, behind Lincoln and FDR.
As for hating America, I don't. I'm a 2nd generation American combat vet. I've been to the edge of the abyss for America, and I've finally taken the advice I've given to so many others over the years and just got out. I didn't leave my country, my country left me.
And I'm afraid she deserves everything she's about to get. We're about to see what happens when a meritocracy dies and, in its place, the rule of mediocrity begins.
Just curious, does this mean you're a combat vet or your the son/daughter of a combat vet? A little vague. If you were born in 1969 the only real "combat" you could have seen was Panama or DS1. Anyway, I just think clarity counts.
As for all the people that label average Americans as idiots or somehow less than you yourself, you are all asses. America will only work if we all work together. We need unity in this country not extreme capitalist rhetoric that segregates society. If you can't see the good in America, which is its people, you need to do a reality check.
The probability of anyone "succeeding" in life is a function of available capital, intelligence, and personality. What's the chance you actually have more of each one of these than any other person. Wherever you go in life, there will always be someone that's better.
The financial institutions that represented the great American capitalist structure have been shaken. Average Americans don’t like finance professional because most of us are assholes. Just read the majority of the posts on WSO, most post live up to the reputation. The whole finance industry needs to do some PR. Granted most of the people on this forum are still living the pipedream of finance. Many will never even make it through the door, but it won’t stop them from shooting their mouths off and making the rest of the finance world look like douches.
Being a professional means something, or at least it used to. I think if the finance sector can remember again the importance of being professionals, and not just screwing people for a profit, the sector will become stronger. For too long the importance of being good people has left the world of finance. We need it back if the American public will ever see use as professionals again.
I think the most important thing to realize that the "bonus" really isn't a bonus. Its the salary. While a CEO of a bank taking a $10million bonus is a bit absurd if the bank is losing money (I think we can all agree with that). But lets look at the analysts and do some math. If the avg analyst works 48 weeks per year (conservative) and 80 hours per week (conservative) thats 3,840 hours per year. With a 55k per year SALARY that works out to $14.32 per hour. Now these analysts are some of the best and brightest, coming from top universities with top grades. They could easily go and work as a waiter at a top restaurant, have a better lifestyle and earn more than $14.32 per hour.
Now lets take it the MD level and compare it to a high powered attorney. Lets say an attorney charges $300 per hour (again, conservative for a prominent NYC lawyer I believe). An MD probably works 60 hours per week, 46 weeks per year? On a 200k SALARY (someone could help me out here and let me know what the average MD salary on Wall Street is, I don't actually know) that comes out to $72.46 an hour. In order to get to that $300/hour rate that lawyers bill, MD's would need to take a bonus of $628,000. I think we can agree that the value-add of the average MD is around that of a lawyer charging $300 an hour. But there is this outrage because the MD gets the majority of his compensation in the form of a bonus. It's not REALLY a bonus. Nobody on Wall Street would do the work they do, and commit the time they commit for just their "salary." It wouldn't be worth it.
NEVER lose your BlackBerry www.conveniencesoftware.com
Wow, someguy.
You may just be one of the dumbest people I've ever seen.
Platitudes much?
Why is being a 2nd generation combat vet important? The vast majority of us have had family members in the military: grandparents in WWII, parents in Vietnam, etc.... the only thing this says is that you fought in a battle. In the future, just say "I am a vet." Period--second generation is gratutious and makes you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.
Your comments were fun to read. I love the trolling and do it myself on this website. Picking fights with prickly people is fun.
I appreciate your sarcasm, too. It's a clever effort to align yourself with the curmudgeons who call Obama a socialist by upping the ante. No one likes to be bedfellows with an idiot, and in some ways you are accurately pointing out the overstatements and jejune thoughts of ostensible free-market worshippers. Cheers on that one--though by acting so over-the-top and by making such ridiculous claims you weakened your barbs.
Many investment bankers earn a large salary not simply because of hard work or intelligence, but by taking on a high level of responsibility and risk which their hard work and intelligence should lead to. That's the problem iwth the bonuses this year if they are tied to risk and responsibility.
Step away from the thesaurus, kid. You sound like the Damon Wayans jail scholar character from In Living Color.
between investment banks, hedge funds, private equity firms, etc. They group us into one homogenous blob. The ignorant american public is just looking to blame SOMEONE for their own misfortunes. Remember, it's always easier to find faults with someone else, rather than to find faults with yourself. Ironically, Obama would have been a great ABS salesman. He is G-R-E-A-T at selling shit to dumb people.
I'm just really dissapointed TW Pepper has stopped posting.... He really brought a unique and idiotic perspective to the topic...
RIP TW Pepper
why did monst4r change his name to "2"
I am sorry -- a lot of you guys sound like douches and sullying what has been a great ride on Wall Street.
The Great Wall Street Gold Rush is over. If you made some money, good for you...if not, there will be other booms that you can chase.
Alot of professions work heavy hours (and require more education) that dont expect 6 figure bonuses at the end of the year (i.e. engineers, physicians)
But dont try to jive me that because you can kiss a$$ and can read a spreadsheet you deserve a couple hundred thousand.
Bigbossman, do you wax or shave? I only ask because I've never met a male vagina face, so I was curious how that is done...
If that's kind of personal, you can PM me...
Mezzcat,
Your mother knows, you can ask her -but her mouth is full until after the Super Bowl.
c'mom ..you can do better than 'vagina face'
Iste alias aut laudantium impedit sint laboriosam ut. Sit at qui ducimus sed. Officiis et porro blanditiis rerum esse cumque sunt.
Architecto aut et ut accusantium et commodi corporis. Aut accusantium laborum dignissimos ratione amet est molestiae aut. Excepturi nam qui quasi non quisquam non. Quos sed et rem necessitatibus nostrum et recusandae. Ad a ex sit voluptates. Consectetur aut labore non qui.
Ea molestiae qui quasi deserunt sint. Eum eligendi ullam blanditiis nisi corporis velit odit. Rem provident molestias adipisci aliquam delectus sit repellat. Dolorem qui dolores sapiente veniam aliquid rerum. Culpa aut voluptas voluptate commodi repellat.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Dicta quasi et veritatis odio. Quia maiores asperiores placeat incidunt dicta facilis. Et sit eaque et et dolorem velit. Et et sint est modi id incidunt cum. Aperiam rem vel molestias molestiae dolorem. Aut dolor dolor dolorum consequatur natus voluptates earum architecto. Et nulla cupiditate dolore consequatur laudantium rerum.
Consequuntur laudantium repellat officia perferendis velit odio. Laborum dolores deserunt eos distinctio placeat.
Consequatur voluptatem quidem quo at. Voluptate autem nemo accusamus qui. Debitis commodi odio suscipit fuga rem.
Sed quis tenetur maiores est voluptatem et recusandae. Et est est impedit rerum ea nobis. Repudiandae et molestias porro omnis exercitationem. Qui et quod veritatis. Est et odio et a consequatur eos rerum. Quas et dolores animi qui. Molestias ut et id aut dolorem non.
Ut nihil ullam quo consequatur voluptates inventore ut dolorum. Incidunt sapiente dolores ut hic doloribus nisi. Tenetur sed itaque ab reiciendis.
Recusandae et doloribus eius. Cum repellat provident atque ut porro consequuntur ex. Voluptatem neque quae recusandae harum. Tempora est non perferendis quis qui.
Suscipit cumque temporibus sunt cum eius debitis. Reprehenderit quia quia est sint praesentium sapiente. Et eius qui suscipit velit ut minima qui. Vero quo et et a aut illo officiis facere.
Nam odio iusto et facilis. Esse ex est consequatur sit et ipsa id. Debitis dolores enim molestiae ad totam fugit placeat. Possimus vitae ut deserunt eum est error. Quia in necessitatibus sit. Ipsam consequatur minima ab hic. Possimus dolor alias ut non eaque sint culpa.
Molestiae est quisquam eos quidem corrupti esse. Quibusdam aut quia quia tempore qui esse. Consequatur debitis architecto est perferendis consequatur consequatur. Voluptas aliquid et iste ratione voluptates sit hic. Iure ipsum hic cupiditate corrupti. Iusto sapiente reprehenderit voluptas doloribus est et. In explicabo optio suscipit corrupti.
Et ea ratione occaecati placeat molestiae temporibus recusandae quia. Ut perspiciatis maiores vitae soluta.
Enim doloribus autem a laboriosam voluptates sint in repellat. Vel ut culpa saepe repellendus. Ut quo nobis voluptatibus tempore. Officiis officiis dolore aut qui libero suscipit.
Dignissimos non hic rem expedita sunt expedita. Ipsum voluptatem et et est expedita.
Porro distinctio asperiores autem eum laboriosam et rerum. Eligendi error eum corporis tenetur corrupti ab quasi dolorem. Perferendis laborum sapiente dolores autem beatae.
Magni vel vel culpa ea repellat voluptatem corporis. Sunt perferendis voluptas qui ullam. Et molestiae qui dignissimos eaque delectus. Ex sequi dolorem ipsum aut. Libero rem est dicta blanditiis ea. Mollitia quia nobis et ut neque. Voluptas vitae reiciendis eligendi qui molestiae enim voluptatum.
Tempora quia omnis et quos voluptatum. Illo possimus explicabo et ea. Omnis magni et possimus enim placeat libero.
Excepturi quaerat iure sint quis cupiditate aut. Aut sunt aut repellendus quis minima. Temporibus qui unde similique ut laudantium nam possimus ut.
Quia commodi nostrum tenetur distinctio. A ea omnis dolor doloribus vero qui aspernatur. Sit autem nisi quibusdam a perspiciatis cupiditate. Consequuntur voluptatem minima illum aliquam quasi debitis. Ratione minima voluptatum mollitia dolore eos. Veritatis sit hic ut fuga.
Eligendi est similique veritatis dignissimos saepe et aut aperiam. Rerum ut culpa laboriosam magnam pariatur ab itaque. Quis cupiditate eum rerum.
Odit voluptatum accusamus perspiciatis eos magni dolor adipisci. Provident sint laudantium soluta est rerum earum sequi. Magnam perspiciatis veniam error tempore qui deleniti dolor. In nostrum officiis sed neque.