Former online poker player looking to get into trading
Hi everyone,
For the past four years, I've been a professional online poker player. Out of college, it was a great way to live. The money was great and the freedom of working at my own schedule made for an entertaining job, but now that the government has shut it down indefinitely, I'm looking at entry level trading positions at prop shops and banks (though I figure with my non traditional background, I'd be more likely to land an offer with a prop firm). I know the skills don't translate directly, but I think trading is something that I will excel in. To be honest, I was looking to get into trading even before online poker died, but this just expedited all my plans.
Some quick background on me: I graduated from a top 75 (maybe top 50?) semi-target public school with a degree in Finance but obviously chose the poker route upon graduation rather than doing what most of my classmates did (ibanking). I currently live in NYC but have been applying to firms both here and in Chicago.
So far, I've been trying to apply through online applications, cold emailing HR departments of firms, and even trying to cold email alumni through LinkedIn without much success. I am on the waitlist for one prop firm in NYC for their upcoming class, but unless someone drops out, I'll be outside of the fence looking in. It's somewhat discouraging and a bit humbling, but I understand that it's not easy to land one of these jobs so I'm trying to be proactive and figure out ways to improve my candidacy.
If anyone here could critique my resume (and general template of a cover letter), I would appreciate it. I tried describing poker in my resume as a very analytical job but I worry that it comes off as cheesy and over the top. Do you guys think listing raw results on a resume is appropriate? Or maybe listing some other poker related metric like bb/100 is a better indicator? Should I be focusing more on networking through alumni? Of the limited success I've had so far on the job hunt, it's been through personal acquaintances. Any other general advice for me?
Thanks,
Phil
I know a poker pro turned prop trader (and very successful at both). Given that I haven't seen your resume/cover letter (but I haven't seen his either), i can tell you that the way he got the job was: 1) networking for an intro 2) obviously studying prop trading relevant things 3) talk about poker a lot. he talked a ton about bankroll management, as the best poker player/trader in the world will still sometimes lose and needs to know how to appropriately manage risk. so talk about your philosophy on risk management, talk about how you choose certain "Drivers" in each hand to contribute to your decision of what to do. This guy is good at poker because he seems to always pay attention to the right details. And that's what helps him in trading too - be good at ignoring the noise and focusing on the most important parts of each hand/trade. But he did mention that bankroll management was a huge part of his sell in his interviews.
that's really all i got for ya, good luck
I think I'm fairly comfortable talking about poker, but my finding that opportunity has been the problematic part. I can explain a lot of the mental advantages poker gives me (managing risk, making decisions based on reasoning as opposed to any emotional bias, understanding variance, knowing not to be results oriented, etc) and I think I can explain the technical side of poker as well (calculating EVs, making logical deductions when putting someone on hand range, poker theory / game theory). However, as I said, getting my foot in the door has been the hard part.
Granted the guy also did a year of investment banking at one point so a little bit of a resume advantage there (more than a little).
I'm sorry that I'm not much help, but I'm really curious as to what school you went to. It's truly impressive that that many of your classmates got ibanking jobs coming from the type of school you described.
I went to Rutgers and many of classmates got offers at Goldman and Citi. Given that the the Rutgers Business School is relatively big, the sample size of the people I knew is substantially smaller, and may not be representative of the class as a whole.
What does your GPA look like? Is poker the ONLY thing on your resume? (it's on my resume too and I always got asked about it so it is a good conversation starter) But if it is all you have and your GPA is not-so-hot you may have a problem. Honestly, if you enjoy poker enough and you make a decent living you could move somewhere outside of the US where it is still perfectly legal to play online.
GPA is 3.3 overall, 3.2 for Finance. I probably dedicated too much of my time learning poker rather than concentrating on my studies at that point which I regret but obviously there's nothing I can do about that now.
I had a summer internship with ML during the summer before my senior year (but with the Wealth Management side) and beyond that, I only have a part time job with my father's foreclosure investment company.
If you, or anyone else, would be willing to critique my resume, I would gladly send it via private message or email or whatever else method.
As for poker, I don't see moving overseas as a reasonable option. The landscape for poker there isn't great either (FTP just lost their gaming license) and the quality of the games at Stars/Party seem mediocre. More importantly, I knew poker was never the end-game for me and I always had more ambition than to become an online poker player. It was great while it lasted, and I enjoyed every second of it, but it's time for me to move on to bigger and better things. And I think the next step for me is trading, and it would be something that I would both enjoy and be successful at.
By the way, I think Bodog is still up, if you're looking for an income source while you search for jobs.
lol you haven't played much online poker have you? whos makin a living out of max 4 mt lol
lol...Actually, I've played a TON of online poker. Never high stakes though. Mostly just $8-10 tourneys on FT when it was up. Maybe income source was a bad way to put it bit I made decent ROI (considering I was putting in about $50 max a month)
put your resume on razume and we will critique
my resume is here
http://www.razume.com/documents/20698
Thanks in advance for the comments and critiques.
Read "my take on job mkt and whats out there for poker players" on 2+2 by strassa (can't link cause it triggered spam filter)
I think your resume needs more numbers and specifics
Stars/FTP name? What'd you play?
I'm a pretty regular poster on 2+2 so I've seen that thread before. I think it's helpful in a very general sense but I was looking for more particular advice on where to go.
I was an 6max mid/high NLHE reg, would play 2/4 to 10/20 depending on game selection. I'm hesitant to post my online screen names here though for obvious reasons.
What site?
you need numbers.. stats? results? prizes? rank? etc less focus on what the game is b/c we all know how to play poker
Online Poker Pro Looking to Test the Waters... (Originally Posted: 04/06/2010)
Hi all,
This is my first post on here, but I'll try my best to not to sound like a total knucklehead (although, admittedly I have no direct experience in finance).
My father first told me about big firms hiring pro poker players as trader's a few months ago, and I didn't really think much of it at the time, but now it seems like a good opportunity for me to at least see what my prospects are. First, let me say that I do quite well playing and have only become a full time player as of last week. In '09 I made ~$80k as a full-time graduate student majoring in computer security, only playing about 15 hours a week and I also took 2 months completely off. If I happen to not get any reasonable job offers, I'm more than happy to just continue playing.
So here's my background:
I have a Bachelor's and Master's degree in Classical Guitar Performance. My Master's is from the Chicago College of Performing Arts where I studied first hand with one of the top five living classical guitarists. I know that these degrees are basically worthless in the world of finance but I am hoping it at least shows a passion and drive towards something other than money and pure greed. My GPA's are 3.63 for my Bachelor's and 3.92 for my Master's.
I also am about 1/3rd of the way through a second Master's from DePaul University where I was majoring in Computer Security (I decided not to go back this quarter so that I could pursue poker full-time). My GPA so far for that degree is 4.0 .
Poker has been my sole source of income for a while now and I still have my original $50 deposit from 3 and half years ago. I specialize in heads-up (1 on 1) no limit hold'em cash games, which is the most sophisticated form of the game. I hear about all of these tournament players getting jobs in finance and it's just laughable to me that are able to sell themselves as being intellectual (it doesn't take a genius to wait around for AK and then shove it in preflop). Deep stacked cash games are without a doubt where the best players reside and while I don't play a lot of hands per year, my edge is about as big as anyone's at midstakes.
Here is my graph from the past year and 3 months (hopefully you can see the consistency): http://stashbox.org/847725/1103605513-Holdem-_-Omaha-Manager-Profession…
My questions are: Do you think that I am a good candidate for a prop shop to take a shot on?
Does my previous education background matter at all?
Should I begin to educate myself on the world of trading? (I have heard some firms say they want you to be fresh so that they don't have to correct mistakes that you have picked up)
Is my story at least semi-interesting?
Any general advice is also very much appreciated.
I am more than willing to send anyone my SN's and/or vids of my guitar playing via PM. However, I would like to remain anonymous publicly.
Thanks so much for the advice!
I have a version of my resume with quantifiable metrics but I didn't think it was the greatest idea to post it in a public forum. That said, do you think raw figures are more preferable ($X dollars earned lifetime) than poker based metrics (X bb/100 winrate)?
You sound like a nice guy, and yes, a very interesting story.
You say poker isn't hard, you just wait for a big hand and shove all in; trading is not too dissimilar and certainly not rocket science - you just need to be good with numbers and be able to keep your cool.
I want to encourage you, because it would be nice to have more honest people like you in the city, but I think it would be more helpful not to sugar coat the situation.
Your degrees, whilst good grades, aren't going to count for jack - you really are going to need some sort of qualification in economics, maths or finance just to balance out the CV a little. Your story will be great in interview, but to get to interview you need to work on the CV - this is your only real challenge, but its certainly a huge one. Use your poker winnings to get an MA in econ/finance or an MBA from a top school. If you can't get into a reputable school for Masters, then go for Bachellors.
Frustratingly, this is pretty much going back to square one - and you'll be competing against grads, but you'll have a lot more of an interesting CV than these academic wet backs!
The alternative, whilst lest prestigious, can be just as lucrative, if not more so - get yourself a couple of books (FT guide to investing, and Traders, Guns and Money) and open an online trading account. If you make money doing this - that will look much more impressive than pro poker on the CV - but if your making serious money doing it by yourself, then I wouldn't even recommend the city.
I don't know if this helps - I hope it does.
rodney,
Thanks so much for your honest reply. I am happy that you were blunt about my situation and did not sugar coat anything.
When I said poker was fairly easy, I was really just referring to tournament poker where there is only one street of actual play (preflop) for a significant portion. Cash games are a lot more complex, especially playing 1 on 1 because you're playing a much wider range of hands, pushing thin edges, and are constantly faced with situations where you need to estimate your EV of all 3 plays (calling, folding, or raising) on the fly. However, I am certainly not saying that doing simple little equity calculations quickly makes me anywhere near as qualified as someone with a top level econ Master's or MBA.
About the CV, you say my degrees won't matter and I definitely agree about the music degrees, but on a lot of the job applications I have seen, a Master's in Computer Science is recommended alongside the degrees you mentioned. I wrote that I was 1/3rd of the way through a Master's in CS specializing in Computer Security, however, all of the classes I have taken so far have overlapped with the more technical and math-oriented general Computer Science degree at DePaul. So I am wondering, do you think it would make sense to me to hop back into the CS program and switch my major (which can be easily done)?
I've seen a few other threads about poker players looking for work with much less schooling than I have had, that were still getting interviews with SIG and some of the bigger prop shops. Do you think it would make sense for me to pursue something like a trader assistant internship over a summer to get my feet wet at somewhere like DRW? I live in downtown Chicago and I know that a few of the prop shops are located just outside of my doorstep.
Also, thanks for the book recommendations. They both look fantastic.
Cheers
any degrees in computer science will be beneficial in a trading role putting poker experience on your resume will probably be a liability at any big-name shop the strictly prop trading shops you mentioned will probably consider it an asset, i would look into them asap
Definitely agree with starting your own trading account- could be very beneficial. Also, would try to see if you have ANY contacts within finance. Reaching out to them explaining your interest in trading could help open some doors. Don't think just throwing your resume out there to random firms will really work (unless you've been trading on your own with success).
Good luck.
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