People who turn down HBS
Only about 100 people in the world each year actually turn down Harvard Business. Do the vast majority of them end up at Stanford, or do some of them just stay at their current jobs because they are making a lot of money?
Only about 100 people in the world each year actually turn down Harvard Business. Do the vast majority of them end up at Stanford, or do some of them just stay at their current jobs because they are making a lot of money?
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"Only" ~100 turn them down, but only 1100 people in the world get in, so 10% turn them down...not ridiculous. I'm sure some end up at Stanford, which doesn't disclose yield, but their acceptance rate is about 5% lower (7 v. 12 last year).
As a recent applicant (not to either school) I wouldn't see there being a huge amount of overlap though. Even aside from geography, there are many differences to consider. I think both are going to get a lot of do-gooders, but after that Stanford is going to attract many more start-up tech types, while HBS gets a different kind of entrepreneur. From the finance side, HBS is going to get the IB and HF types far more than Stanford, which will draw the VC crowd. Then of course there are many that want none of the above. A friend of mine starting at HBS this fall wants to do marketing. You probably also get government types at HBS, wannabe (or soon-to-be) DC power players.
As for who turns them down, maybe a very few deferrals (
????
HBS gets more of the IB/HF types while Stanford only gets the VC types? Do you know how small this universe is? Most reasonably ambitious people in competitive jobs will apply to both - they don't say "oh I'm in IBD, I should only apply to HBS."
And it is very rare to see someone with the MBA mindset/mentality turn down HBS for Booth because of "location".
Finally, your last paragraph is ridiculously off-base.
[quote=Cartwright]"Only" ~100 turn them down, but only 1100 people in the world get in, so 10% turn them down...not ridiculous. I'm sure some end up at Stanford, which doesn't disclose yield, but their acceptance rate is about 5% lower (7 v. 12 last year).
As a recent applicant (not to either school) I wouldn't see there being a huge amount of overlap though. Even aside from geography, there are many differences to consider. I think both are going to get a lot of do-gooders, but after that Stanford is going to attract many more start-up tech types, while HBS gets a different kind of entrepreneur. From the finance side, HBS is going to get the IB and HF types far more than Stanford, which will draw the VC crowd. Then of course there are many that want none of the above. A friend of mine starting at HBS this fall wants to do marketing. You probably also get government types at HBS, wannabe (or soon-to-be) DC power players.
As for who turns them down, maybe a very few deferrals (
Actually ideating I think he's hit it spot on with that last paragraph. The thing is the 30 year old HBS grad may be looked down on for thinking he is the shit by more experienced managers. This is most likely a function of their lack of testicles. They see HBS guys that are far past where they were in their careers at that point and it pisses them off.
Knock it all you want, Cartwright, but HBS will most likely continue to place their graduates in the top management roles around the world for a long motherfuckin time.
HBS is such a joke education wise. That might be a reason. People like me would cringe at the idea of spending the majority of a 2-year curriculum "studying" stuff like management, strategy, organizations, etc. (not that those aren't important topics- they are, but not in classroom-form....regardless of their use of "real-world case studies")
The kick of HBS is the prestige. And if you get in- chances are you don't need it.
I know a guy who chose Chicago over HBS for education reasons.
I heard a very high percentage of cross-admits chose the GSB this year.
There are some - not a lot but some- who turned down HBS at Wharton. Most come for specialized programs like Lauder (Language intense MA/MBA) or the healthcare program. You find a few others who are all about finance or want to study something very specific under a specific prof as Wharton dominates in original academic research.
http://som.utdallas.edu/top100Ranking/searchRanking.php?t=n
Then you find a few purists who applied to HBS just because that is what you do when you apply to the top schools- but think that the case method is bullshit for learning real skills in areas like finance or accounting and that you should be evaluated by your ability to solve problems not to maximize your class participation score.
Wharton likes numbers and data and so it attracts/selects more of that kind of a student. This tendency to crunch the numbers is probably why Wharton MBAs often have the higher starting salaries (finance) but within ten years are usually passed up by HBS grads. (management)
And finally, the Harvard brand is full of advantages but doesn't wash off easily if you are from and headed back to middle America. In some ways UPenn/Wharton is nice that way- people who need to know certainly do know, but the average person often thinks that you went to a branch campus of Penn State.
People in Middle America are super impressed if you went to harvard. They'll assume that you're brilliant, successful, and going somewhere in life. Just don't be an obnoxious douchebag, and you'll be fine.
Harvard MBAs are dodos
get your MBA at Princeton
-Dartmouth Law, 2nd Year
I never said Stanford "only" attracts VC, but from a geographical and networking perspective, why on earth (assuming admission to both) would you move to Palo Alto if you want to do AM? In addition to the entire NYC community, you've got wellington, putnam, bain, etc etc in your own backyard. Maybe it's just my strong desire to never live in California.
Moreover, I was not knocking HBS at all. Merely passing along an oft-cited criticism of HBS grads who want to do management in a large corporate setting. Many do not last. Whose fault that is may be up for debate. Probably a little from column A and a little from Column B. And, it is incorrect to say that anyone "places" their grads in top corporate anything. Rather, they place them in a position to eventually get there. If you have the best brand name and graduate damn near 1000 people a year, they are bound to eventually end up in some good places.
Tell me, ideating, what is the "mba mindset". To fuckin rule the world brah!?
MBAs are for retards anyways. smart people get PhD's.
-Ben Shalom B.
No, people who want to work in Academia get PhD's. There are plenty of people in the top MBA programs with the brains/credentials to get PhD's. They just want to make money, rather than spend 4-5 years writing a paper no one will read only to land a job teaching indifferent college students.
I have strongly considered pursuing a PhD in the past. Getting an MBA is the smart move.
I knew a guy who turned down HBS. Getting a degree part time for free and without losing out on work experience was arguably a better move. There were also personal factors involved in not wanting to relocate.
people who get MBAs are usually pretty dumb- it's a degree for children
Agree plus there are many people in MBA programs now who have PhDs.
the OP is correct. essentially the only people who turn down HBS are the kids who decide to go to Stanford GSB, or are the kids who for whatever reason (new job, family, etc) decide to stay at their current employment. Coincidentally, the same is said of those who turn down Stanford. Those are the kids who go to HBS. There is a lot of overlap between the two schools' applicant pools, and these dual-admits have to make a very difficult decision.
There may be a very, very small amount of people who turn down HBS because they have a full ride somewhere else, but this is a very small number.
Wow there is so much misinformation in this thread that I don't even know where to start. Cartwright's got the idea, though.
It really is remarkable. I wanted to say something, but there was just so much bullshit here that I didn't want weed through it all...I was like "alright, just let it be..."
do you know something about why people turn down HBS? if so, you should mention it, instead of pretending to be to be unable to "weed" through the 6 posts on this thread that actually addressed the issue.
Who knows...ask them
^^^I really don't want to get into it:
A) Why people might choose HBS or Stanford B) Where people go who turn down HBS (there's so many different kinds and reasons, I've met a few, not many but a few, and none of them did it for Stanford, and I've also heard a few things through the grapevine as well) C) The meaning of an MBA, whether an MBA is dumb or not, who it's for...
There's been misinformation on all of these topics so far
I don't want to get into it, they're all topics requiring long drawn out responses (taking into account different possibilities and certain exceptions etc) that I don't have the energy for.
So just let me keep pretending, ok? Don't tell anybody on these boards that I'm pretending though, it can be our little secret.
rebelcross,
i don't imagine you know significantly more about subjects A,B and C than the other people who have posted on this thread already. i imagine that if you did have extra knowledge pertinent to the issues at hand you would helpfully address them in bullet points or short paragraphs labeled A,B, and C.
at the end of the day though, i feel that issues A,B,C and are all a bit pointless- whether one goes to HBS or Stanford isn't really that big of a deal, and whether one learns anything at an MBA program is a moot point as well.
also, how are we supposed to keep a little secret between us if you've already advertised it to the whole board?
Well thank you, I'm glad you cleared that up for everybody and even for myself. Now I realize exactly where I stand in relation to others, thanks to you following me around on this thread.
I guess college kids would know better than me. It's excellent logic: HBS is a college, college kids are IN a college. Put them together = Bliss
I should have went bullet points as you suggested, that way I could have really fooled you, you nailed it. In fact, I don't know much about anything on this board. I have perceived so much misinformation lately on so many topics throughout WSO. Now it's obvious that I really DON'T KNOW significanlty more about any of the subjects with perceived misinformation than the original posters and college students who have given the information, lest I would use bullet points, hundreds per day. I thank you so much for allowing me to realize that.
You are a thousand percent right, my knowledge about HBS and maybe people in the industry who have turned it down for various reasons pales in comparison to your knowledge regarding my level of knowledge of said subject.
I'll let you figure it out. I guess sarcasm isn't your strong point.
The majority of those 100 go to Stanford. The H/S dual-admits typically split 50/50. It looks like it will lean in favor of Stanford this year. That is all.
Rebel: You have to check profiles before arguing. Affirm Act is 22. He doesn’t know anything. He is only repeating what he someone told him at an internship. That’s the problem with this forum.
This forum has gone so far downhill lately, they should change the motto to "WSO, the place where bankers come to get lectured by college students about the finance industry."
i would agree with you, except that i feel like lately, i've been getting lectured by high school kids about the industry that i've been working in
The major advantages of HBS over the rest of the top 5 are brand, network & prestige. A Harvard or Princeton grad, or a Rhode Scholar, doesn’t really need the HBS brand – his/her brand is strong enough. Someone with a blue chip resume and great connections may choose Chicago over HBS for the finance curriculum, or Berkeley over HBS for the VC connections.
Wow - this thread is the blind supporting the blind.
I agree with rebelcross - not even going to bother trying to go through this.
my brother actually turned down hbs
My good friend from college turned down Harvard undergrad for UCLA. Then he turned down Harvard Law to start his own company. He might go for the HBS admit just to get the trifecta, with no intention of actually matriculating. I wish I was lying but I'm not.
i could see the argument for turning down harvard undergrad even though i personally would not do it. but saying no to HLS or HBS is a bad move, unless it's for yale law or stanford business. the networking, prestige, and opportunities you get from those degrees are too valuable to turn down.
What if you are already wealthy and have a solid network.
its not suprising---the people who get into HBS are the people who would do great things without HBS on their resume.
The idea that people only turn down HBS for Stanford must be an urban legend. From my experience, I know of three folks over the last two years who have turned down HBS for other schools (myself included). Two went to Chicago and one went to MIT (for a specialized joint program). I personally have not met someone who chose stanford, but I am sure that many do. I do not know a huge number of folks going to MBA programs, as I am from a non-traditional background; most of the grad school folks I know are going to Law School.
As I said I picked Chicago. My reasoning centered on the need for pedigree vs. a finance education that will serve me well over the long hall. I felt that I already have a really solid network and a pretty good pedigree, so the clubhouse feeling of Allston would offer me little that I did not already have. I was also sort of turned off by the case study method. I do not want to be taught leadership (which I do not think you can teach in a classroom and it is silly that schools try) or management, I wanted a down and dirty quant and skills focused MBA. It did not hurt that Chicago gave me $$ and HBS treated me like I should be honored to be admitted.
The friend who choose between MIT and HBS, is an amazing engineer and is going to MIT Sloan School of Management and MIT School of Engineering to do their Leaders for Global Operation program. This is a really cool joint program.
The other Chicago bound admit is also a top school undergrad, she got into Stanford as well as HBS, and picked Chicago. I do not know much about this friend as she is really friends with my girlfriend. Next time I see her I will pump her for rational. Always sort of a weird thing to do because people think you are questioning their choice, rather than asking them about it.
The only one I know who is going to HBS was a harvard undergrad years ago and really only wanted to go to HBS. I can respect that, I love my undergraduate school and defiantly considered going back, but the program was not a good fit.
This sample set is in NO way representative of the general population, as it is very small and focused on very high performers who will likely be successful regardless of where they go.
I do know a few others who are going to Chicago, MIT, and Tuck for various reasons; and I am not sure if any of them only got into the school they are going to, or if they walked from something else. No data correlated to HBS here.
That said, I think that it is unlikely that the "only" school people choose over HBS is stanford, if I know no one who has ever do so. I would guess that there are more to the numbers than you guys are assuming. I would guess that the stanford may get a substantial percentage, but I would personally be surprised if it is more than 40%. Yeah, it is possible that it is higher, but I would guess no more than 60% could really be even feasible.
These MBA programs are really very different, sure their are some people who pick based on US News's rankings, but I would guess that these folks are likely a minority.
Some have asked why anyone would turn down HBS. I can give 2 specific situations where one might do so. These are not all-encompassing scenarios by any means, but the point is that if I can think of these 2 off the top of my head then there are likely many reasons one might do so. Occasionally it's good to think outside of the box and have some independent thoughts from time to time....everyone's situation is different...
1) I was at the Wharton admitted students weekend the year I got in. Got into a discussion with a fellow admit who was choosing between Harvard and Wharton (never even looked at Stanford, for whatever reason). He did PE out of ugrad and wanted to continue in PE. I, on the other hand, was coming from the military and looking to break into finance. His advice was this. In his situation he had finance experience, and specifically PE experience, so he didn't need the finance curriculum, and instead wanted to build his "softer" skill set. So HBS was where he chose. His advice to me, on that other hand, was that if he were in my shoes--someone with no finance background who needed the academics and wanted to break into finance--he would choose Wharton over HBS, no question.
2) As a former military officer, I feel it is typically easier getting into HBS than getting into certain other schools. Especially since most military applicants these days have significant combat experience, so we all have more leadership experience than we know what to do with, and HBS seems more interested in that than some other places. As a military applicant it's very easy to fall into the trap of: "I know how to lead people, so therefore I just want a job where I can manage something and lead people". What happens is that many veterans see this as the obvious choice, as do recruiters. So you have the most success going down the M/B/B path, with the goal of moving into senior leadership in industry later on down the road. Great path for some. But as someone who does not fit into that mindset, my experience was that Wharton gave me greater exposure to a wider range of other career options (particularly in finance) than I would have gotten at HBS. Just my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
Skins, another great post. You haven't posted in a really long time. Good to see you back.
I agree that wharton is better than harvard for pure finance and quant skills. And for sales&trading it has better placement than HBS (very few people at HBS even consider S&T). But from what i've heard, HBS has a distinct advantage when it comes to hedge funds, private equity, and asset management. I could be totally wrong on this though.
I love it skins. In the same boat as an MBA applicant. Thinking the same way as you. Hopefully, I get to choose.
quote "HBS has a distinct advantage when it comes to hedge funds, private equity, and asset management. I could be totally wrong on this though."
Doesn't matter - you generally can't get the big time HF/PE jobs without previous finance experience. HBS doesn't place people in Paulsen & Co because of their finance curriculum. They are placing people who worked at GS & KKR before B-School.
[quote=HMbusiness]Yui Kamikawa applied and was accepted to Harvard, Berkeley and Michigan but turned them all down: "I went to visit and got the sense that it wasn’t the exact right fit. There was a difference from what I wanted and what they were offering.” He is now on the One Planet MBA at Exeter Business School http://www.businessbecause.com/news/MBA-UK/japan-mba-exeter-81215[/quote] Someone who turns down any of the schools you mentioned and chooses "Exeter Business School's One Planet MBA" seems like a perfect fit for the 'school'.
You should read the article before judging people or better yet don't judge people at all. It's clear from the article that this guy has his head on straight and choose a program to fulfill a specific academic goal, god forbid. Looks like he is more secure and confident in himself and his ambitions than 99% of people on this board.
While everyone has been focusing on the "Harvard" name, Stanford GSB has become the best business school in the world, and it's not even close at this point. The fact that Stanford GSB takes 3 out of every 4 cross-admits with HBS says more than anything else. Every other metric is just a lagging indicator. This 3 out of 4 cross-admit stat is from a source very close to the GSB and has apparently been confirmed by the Dean. HBS might still have a higher yield, since it has a much bigger class and admits many students who don't get accepted to the GSB, and HBS' yield on those students must be close to 100%. Shockingly, the GSB takes slightly higher than 3 out of every 4 cross-admits among international student. Apparently, the only major competition the GSB has for MBA students is from industry (prospects deciding to forgo an MBA). GSB has passed HBS the same way Stanford undergrad has passed Harvard. It happened a while ago, but people are only realizing it now since they've been focusing on the "Harvard" name while Stanford has been silently dominating all along.
This is so silly. Aside from the fact that the schools are equal - and if anything HBS gets the edge just for having the better alumni network, give its size and history. Let me introduce you to my little friend called causation vs. correlation. Even if your "source" is correct, might it be because tech has been hot for the past several years and Stanford is in the valley? Let's see what happens to the cross admit rates once this bubble pops.
While everyone has been focusing on the "Harvard" name, Stanford GSB has become the best business school in the world, and it's not even close at this point. The fact that Stanford GSB takes 3 out of every 4 cross-admits with HBS says more than anything else. Every other metric is just a lagging indicator. This 3 out of 4 cross-admit stat is from a source very close to the GSB and has apparently been confirmed by the Dean. HBS might still have a higher yield, since it has a much bigger class and admits many students who don't get accepted to the GSB, and HBS' yield on those students must be close to 100%. Shockingly, the GSB takes slightly higher than 3 out of every 4 cross-admits among international student. Apparently, the only major competition the GSB has for MBA students is from industry (prospects deciding to forgo an MBA). GSB has passed HBS the same way Stanford undergrad has passed Harvard. It happened a while ago, but people are only realizing it now since they've been focusing on the "Harvard" name while Stanford has been silently dominating all along.
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