POC joining a Frat
Would love to hear experiences if the cost outweighs the benefit and if it was worth it in general.
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Non POC here—
Well worth it assuming your school has legit greek life.
Don’t let it consume the majority of your time (don’t be afraid to not go to things or say no to people) but the experience legitimately helps set you up for success.
As for the POC issue, there’re definitely two sides: I think that most fraternities are less concerned with it than many people think, but be mindful that you might experience some unwarranted treatment at times. Fraternities sadly tend to attract that type of people.
tons of POC in fraternities... at least at my big 10
Same here
We had POCs in our frat and nobody cared.
Whether you agree with the values of the frat is up to you.
I graduated college over a decade ago and basically cut ties with my chapter (where I was president, 60-80 people depending on the year), though it wasn't for racial issues.
my experience was that the vast majority of people do not give a flying fuck, they want someone who agrees with the values of the frat, isn't going to try and fuck everyone's girlfriend, and is going to pay dues on time. out of the 7 rush classes I was not a pledge for, I cannot remember a single time we denied someone a bid based on racial grounds (and I joined a southern fraternity at a school in the southeast)
during the hazing process, however, I got called n#!ger a decent amount. my memory is fuzzy on the subject since it wasn't the most fun time, but I recall it being 2 or 3 assholes who I didn't associate with after I got initiated and they happened to graduate shortly thereafter. had no issues aside from those 2 or 3 people.
on the positive side, I've got lifelong friends that I would want to be the godfather of my children if I ever have any, people I can vacation with, and guys I can trust without question. it was absolutely worth it because of the friendships developed, and that's what I remember more than some hick with shortened chromosomes
Maybe, or maybe I’ve moved on and now I’m glad that I didn’t let a few idiots prevent me from meeting lifelong best friends
Assuming you’re black, why not join a black fraternity? White frats aren’t the only option but if you feel you have more in common with the people in the white frats then go for it.
I was not in a frat, but I have to say that I have tons of respect for black frats. At my school, members of the black frats were really all the kids that were the most hard-working and going somewhere. The other frats were mostly people just looking to get hammered.
Maybe, I'm biased by my experience, but I would see a candidate from a black frat as a positive and other frats as somewhat of a negative. Note also that I am not a politically correct person at all - that does not factor into my thought process. This is just based on the experience from my school.
I would definitely do it. Coming from a non-athlete at a school without Greek life, shit's lonely. I went from having a solid group of friends in HS to always hang out with to have to put effort in to go out on the weekends. I'm not some social outcast either, and corona has definitely made this year worse (thanks Gov. Baker), but having the ability to have consistent plans with others in your frat seems like it would be amazing. I have a lot of friends so far (still my freshman year, so W/E), but that's not even close to having a group of brothers. Just because I know a lot of people that would be happy to hang out doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass to put something together where my friends don't really know my other friends. 90% of current friend groups at my school are based solely on if you live on the same floor. If I could do it over again, I'd go to a school with greek life without question.
Yeah i get that would you say you are happy with your current situation.
I'm making the best of it, but it's not at all ideal. I'm literally telling all of my younger male friends to go to schools with frats.
No greek life, MA school where freshman are friends solely based on floors...you mean BC right? I feel you, sitting in a double smoking/drinking with a bunch of guys every Thurs/Fri/Sat gets old. It's a meme for everyone to say that it gets better every year, but believe me it does. Soph yr you get a common room, jr yr lots of people turn 21, sr yr you know people in the mods. I'm sure things have been even worse w/COVID now, but just hang in there
I will always advocate that the benefits of a joining a fraternity far, far outweigh the one semester of pain.
If you're worried about racism, today's world is probably the best time to join. People are pretty tired of that shit nowadays and take it seriously. You may find 1-2 dickheads out of the 100+ people, but you've probably noticed that's the case everywhere. Fraternities aren't racist, people are
I'm guessing you're not black since you said POC. Either way, I don't think it makes a difference. I never felt like my frat or other frats cared about race. But if you're rushing one that is 99% white it might culturally affect your experience if you just don't relate to the other members as people. I felt like that at times, but ended up making lifelong friends when I realized we all just wanted to meet honeys and get litty 4x a week. Also realistically if the frat doesn't like you for race or whatever reason then you're not getting a bid or definitely not making it to initiation anyways. Find some common ground with the brothers and send it and don't look back
Also since WSO is a career forum I'll add that I got job offers solely because of my frat's alumni that I've never met vouching for me and referring me. So yes the benefits far outweigh the costs
Oh I am black just didn't want to blatantly say that.
Gotcha. Well get a feel for the culture and keep an open mind while staying true to yourself and you should be fine. You just meet so many people and everyone (more or less) wants to have a good time so I can't recommend it enough
Sec and big 12 schools are a no go.
what do you mean?
He means that it might be a bad idea to rush a White frat in certain geographies of the US if you are black.
Can't say anything about it because I didn't study in the South, but this would be an interesting discussion point.
Would the answers in this thread also apply at Bama or Ole Miss?
It’s unfortunately true for SEC schools from my time being there. With maybe the exception of Vandy, as they seem a bit more progressive, all fraternities were 99% white, at least at South Carolina. It’s sad to see, and even crazier is I was in one of the more traditional “southern” fraternities at South Carolina and for the first time during my college years it was a big deal that we let in a kid above the Mason-Dixon Line (Baltimore area). I just wanted to provide this info to be transparent about most SEC schools. Hopefully things have changed a bit since I was there.
Minor point but Baltimore erm.. is below the Mason Dixon line.
What does clinical proof of concept have to do with fraternities,”?
What tf do fraternities even do? Is it like a gay club? I never really understood the concept behind fraternities.
the best way I can describe what I got out of it was pooled resources, social accountability, and institutional knowledge
resources - I had WAY more bangers than my non-Greek friends in college. you simply cannot organize a group of 40 non-Greeks to do something on a regular basis - renting out bars, formals in far away beach towns, and so on.
accountability - since we had meetings every week and all partied together, you saw the same guys all of the time unless they quit, and this instilled an enormous social cost to acting like a dick - fucking someone's girlfriend, being late on rent, being a flake, stuff like that. aside from a few assholes, you did not have to worry if someone was reliable, the flakes worked themselves out
knowledge - everyone's taken the same classes from the same professors before, so you have some help there with studying, plus guys who are juniors or seniors working on internships and jobs would pass along their knowledge (how I found out about finance). the most valuable, however, was knowing if a girl was batshit crazy or had a STD.
I was also in academic fraternities and other societies/groups, none of them had the camaraderie or the fun that we had. had I joined a different one, probably would've had a different experience, but I got very lucky
If you care about the tier of your fraternity, then your race will matter.
what do you mean?
Not at Targets
Lol. No. You think any random kid is getting into deke at Yale? The exclusive finals clubs at Harvard? I'm not saying it's outright discriminatory, but when you filter kids by prep school / last name, race matters.
Depends where at, in part. Frats at Targets tend to be much, much more welcoming — joining a frat at Bama to try to get into IB honestly may not be worth it.
My experience was largely positive.
I met and became friends with a lot of people I would have never otherwise known and saw a whole different side of campus and met a lot of different women that way as well. I am super social so already had a diverse group of friends. This was just an addition to that and another social outlet. On networking, it kind of helped but not really. It got me the odd interview or pat on the back but there was no "dude you are XYZ house? Oh you are so in!" for like jobs or anything.
No insensitive comment was ever thrown at me directly, but I did hear the odd sh** and that's, sadly, not to be unexpected when the space is dominated by a single group of people. At the same time there was also some really positive stuff..
One day, as a junior I was walking through the house and just happened to look at one of the composites. For those who don't know, it's a picture of the brothers of a certain year. I think I was looking at something in the 80s or 90s. A senior (a white dude) stopped by and stood next to me and took a look. Just to break the silence I was like "wow, look at those dudes, I wonder what it was like back then." The senior looked at me, and looked back at the composite and was like "Yeah the XYZ is a much cooler house now. Back then we wouldn't have guys like you and ABC or DEF in the house. Fuck those guys" and walked off.
This guy wasn't even a friend or anything. I always thought highly of him and we hung out more afterwards, but we were never close or anything. So hearing that from him meant a lot.
TLDR: OP - it depends so much on the people, house and you. That's the least helpful answer I know, but it's the truth. Remember, you can always quit if you don't like it.
Just have a question for everyone participating here: Has anyone here ever heard a frat bro actually say "We don't accept minorities." or "We won't take that guy as a pledge because he's a POC?"
This is a good discussion about discrimination, but it seems like 90% of the negative posts are assuming things about fraternities and are ironically perpetuating common stereotypes of frat guys. Other than thebrofessor , no one has concretely said, "Yes, my frat was racist or a frat that I'm very familiar with would not allow POC."
It would be helpful if more people came forward with actual stories rather than make generalized comments which are based on I don't know what???
EDIT: Getting MS because I'm asking for real life examples of racism at fraternities. Ok??? Weird...
So I guess by similar logic, because buses and restaurants are no longer legally segregated, racism doesn't exist anymore?
No, that's not what I'm saying. Racism exists because it is real and you can point to it.
I simply think it would be more helpful if people shared actual examples than simply assuming someone is racist just because they're in a mostly white frat.
If someone here says, "yeah frats at the Big 10 are racist" for example. I think it is useful to provide reasoning or personal experience that supports that.
No but people (not in my house) but in general, will talk about "fit" or "don't know the person" or be inconsistent as to why they won't accept someone. Like they might say they "don't know" a POC guy or that "there isn't a fit" but will accept a person who is not POC that is strikingly similar in many ways. Have seen that in the business world for sure and in other social settings. I see it all time actually. This is a bit off topic, but women suffer from the whole "fit" and "culture" thing at a lot of places. It's awful. I have seen in other houses minority dudes get hazed more or erm be yelled at in stereotypical terms.. Like one asian dude was always yelled at and told "XYZ, SERVICE ME" (referring to happy endings) when the older brother wanted him to get a beer or do some pledge chore or something.
Back to the topic...
My frat had its share of reputational issues (different story), but the one thing I admired about it was that rejecting a guy who went through rush just didn't happen. Guys who we were on the fence about would at most get a "hey come and hang out more for the next semester."...
Why? Because we had a rule and that was that every single person who rushed was told the frat's decision by at least 2 if not 3 brothers, in person. Did you get in? Well 3 dudes who you may not know, knock on your door and tell you. Get waitlisted (ie come again and hang out more), 2-3 dudes come and tell you that "the guys liked you but a lot of them didn't know you. So come and hang out more and next semester should be no problem".
Get rejected? Yeah... 2-3 dudes knock on your door, tell you that you got rejected and why. Oh and the people giving the message have to be the dudes that voted to reject you and they have to say that they were ones that dinged you and why. Let's just say in my time at the frat, no one got rejected... 3 negative votes is a ding. There were some guys who got 2 votes.. But no one wanted to be the 3rd guy.
Funny how "alpha bros" refuse to man up when push comes to shove...
Yes, totally agree on the BS which is "fit".
to be clear, I never said my frat was racist or wouldn't allow POCs. I'm mixed, and I was elected president, 6 years before me we had another black president, and about 4 years after me, we had another. my point was something different - there are assholes within good organizations everywhere, it does not make the organization bad. if the organization had elevated those assholes to positions of authority and not treated them like guys who shouldn't have been given bids years ago (as was the case with me), then that'd be different. but let me be clear, the presence of racists within an organization does not necessarily make that organization racist, in my opinion.
At the end of the day, you need to take a look at the guys in the fraternity and decide if those are people you would be proud to call your friends and brothers. If you can have honest conversations during rush and get to know them/their values, that will make the decision much easier IMO.
It’s a huge commitment, but one I’ve found to be very worthwhile on the social and professional side. You have to do it for the right reasons tho - I would not recommend joining a fraternity with a bad brotherhood just for great parties. Not nearly as fun or rewarding in the long term
Honestly it really depends on what you’re willing to endure. Most frats kinda seem like good ole boy club, but they typically have at least one token black guy. Do you really feel comfortable being in this position? If you’re down south at a school like Alabama or Ole Miss then I wouldn’t be surprised if you encountered some racism. Honestly though, I feel like being the only black guy in a group of a bunch of only white guys always poses at least some risk of racism. Are you willing to take this risk?
That being said, frats seem like the best way to get a social life. You can always join a black frat as well but I’ve heard that the hazing can get pretty rough.
Join one of the Divine 9 fraternities. Black fraternities are much better then white fraternities. You’ll be treated better, participate in community service and have a good time. It’s a life changing experience and it’ll help you grow a lot.
POC at a predominantly white big 10 school in the Midwest. Of course it will play a part in the rush process. Anyone acting like race is not a factor at all is just ignorant. It’s a factor just like what you look like, how you dress, and where you’re from are all factors. Brothers will naturally want to bid people who have things in common with them - and unfortunately a lot of these things tend to have at least some correlation with race.
If a house you’re rushing is really THAT closed minded and racist, you won’t get a bid from them. Simple as that. Those types of houses will weed themselves out. If they like you enough to make you a pledge, that means that (at least most) of them see you as someone who they can come to respect as a brother and the vast majority of the time you will be treated just like any other pledge.
Will there be some racism? Yes, just like in any large group of white dudes. My first time at the house as a pledge one of the seniors on exec randomly went on a drunken racial tirade and yelled at me for 10 minutes calling me a chink commie and said some pretty fucked up shit about the Vietnam war too. People sometimes make the usual jokes. But at the end of the day I know that when shit hits the fan these guys will have my back. Bros tease each other about whatever - a beer gut, a shitty round of pong, smashing an ugly chick, but its all out of love. Inevitably race will come up sometimes too. If you can’t handle that then maybe white Greek life isn’t for you.
Only way to find out - rush. If there are any, talk to black actives that were in your shoes. If it’s really bad you can always drop during pledgeship. Real racists in Greek life don’t tend to keep it a secret for long so you’ll have plenty of time to decide if it’s right for you. But you’ll never know if you dont try. Hope this helps and good luck man
Thanks man that was really insightful.
I'll just leave this here.
Its sad.
Non-POC. Was in frat at Northeast state school. Of all the slurs thrown during hazing, race was one that was never touched. I think society, specifically college campuses are getting more progressive, I couldn't imagine them outwardly being aggressive and throwing racial slurs. In terms of more passive forms of racism, I think when everyone goes through hazing together, you form a bond that supersedes any differences (race, religion, etc.). Not only that, I went to catholic school my whole life being in greek life really opened my eyes to a lot of diversity (i.e religion) that I was never exposed to.
TLDR: You're seen as a pledge and you're scum for the semester bc of that, not being black/white/hispanic/jewish/whatever the fuck.
I feel that.
tf is POC
Get me my damn comps
exactly. I always mix it up with POS.
Go Greek man! Best decision I ever made in my life.
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