Yes, this is my position. Vaccine passports are literally "your papers, please", which back in the olden days of 2019 was considered antithetical to the American way of life.

A possible Left-Right compromise: roll out widespread vaccine passports, except they verify legal residence in the US along with vaccination status.

No doubt some progressive posters will get pissed off at this idea. But if you do, consider the possibility that maybe the verification infrastructure you're pushing will end up being used for things you don't anticipate.

 

Yes, this is my position. Vaccine passports are literally "your papers, please", which back in the olden days of 2019 was considered antithetical to the American way of life.

Without agreeing or disagreeing.... so is having a driver's license, or a literal passport.  What makes this different?  Private establishments mandate wearing shirts and shoes.  All of this has plenty of precedent, so I'm curious why this is a bridge too far.

No doubt some progressive posters will get pissed off at this idea. But if you do, consider the possibility that maybe the verification infrastructure you're pushing will end up being used for things you don't anticipate.

The verification infrastructure already exists.  I don't have to support it or like it to acknowledge it.

 

It's hard to argue specifics because we're talking about a hypothetical. There's no widespread vaccine passport system in place yet, so anyone can claim it will be like this or like that. But my interpretation of the proposals is that they would be far greater invasions of privacy than any of the things you listed. Drivers licenses are only checked in certain contexts (not even voting, in my state!) and most of the time the check is just a clerk glancing at it, with no digital record created. Something like two thirds of Americans don't even have a valid passport, let alone use it regularly. Shirts and shoes requirements in private establishments have no affect on privacy whatsoever.

If the verification infrastructure already existed, they wouldn't be pushing for something new. But they are.

 

It is a bridge too far because it is a gross violation of medical privacy laws for one.  What people do not seem to realize is the auhtorization and EULAs for this shit are astoundingly invasive.  For example, there are some that are looking to network in with your entire digital health record.  Once you click that little "I accept" button that private company is now exempt from HIPPA and can sell your medical data any way they please.  

 

Honest question - Have your political views shifted over the past year? I remember you being extremely apolitical pre 2021 and basically trying to be a "both sides" type of guy, but now you take a side (and a consistent side).  I've seen that change with increasing frequency this year. 

Array
 

As a vaccinated person, I think the passports and mandates are batshit crazy.  Goes against HIPAA and the Nuremberg Code but Fauci said it needs to be done lol 

 

Absolutely it’s possible. I lean right and am vaccinated. I’m happy I got it because I think it works, and it’s funny to me that the people most scared of covid are the ones pushing vaccines and mask mandates for vaccinated people. 
 

also like someone above said, it won’t stop at vaccine passports. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. 

 

My favorite part about this whole thing is that just in the last month that there was a study done showing that eating healthy and exercising greatly reduced your chance of contracting COVID (if I find the study I will link it).  Its kind of like a no shit if you are healthy then you will have a lower chance of contracting thing and getting sick.  Coming from a guy who cannot remember the last time I got sick ( excluding a bad case of food poisoning a few years ago). 

 

My position is that all high risk people should be getting vaccinated and probably getting boosters every ~6 months for the foreseeable future. Doesn't look like the vaccines are doing much to stop the spread of covid, especially a few months after the second dose, so I don't really see the point of vaccinating kids and young adults who are low risk to begin with. Many young adults and kids have already knowingly or unknowingly had covid already anyway. 

 

Yes, it's definitely possible to be both. Personally, I'm Pro-"Make Up Your Own Mind And Do What You Want" on the vaccine because it's your choice and your health. I'm also not gonna judge you for getting it or skipping on it because, again, that's your business. When it comes to the Passport - that's where I am 100% against it. A vaccination passport, besides being a form of population control, is the definition of everything that violates US Civil Liberties. It violates a ton of issues ranging from acting as a de facto segregation of society (look at the vaccination rates across socioeconomic and racial status - Hispanic and Black populations have the lowest vaccination rate), to violating the Equal Protection Clause to violating the interstate commerce clause to a potentially staggering number of HIPAA Violations (just the HIPAA Data Protection aspect of this is enormous and would open up anyone involved to lawsuits if there is a data breach). There are people who are far smarter than me that can argue the legal aspects here. But yeah, totally against the vaccine passport. 

 

well said bro. live and let live, right?

if you've got your shot, even if you're around an unvaxxed person, what're you worried about?

ergo, SHUT THE FLYING FUCK UP ABOUT IT

signed,

a guy who got his shot but doesn't give a fuck what others do

just trying to live like Hunter S Thompson
 

Conservatives fought for decades to give companies the right to do this and other stuff.  Most recently the gay wedding cake incident. But then the culture war happened and they became oppressed and need the government to save them from corporations mandating vaccines or Zucc's ban hammer.  Oh well :(:(:(

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/first-amendment-regul…

Anyways, it's hilarious to see them cry about having to show a piece of paper when entering a restaurant.

 

We’re not talking about corporations dunce. We’re talking about the government rolling out vaccine passports that determine if we can rejoin society. Companies can do what they want, but it would be egregious if the government did this.

 

Define "rejoin society".

Enter restaurants, gyms, have a job?  Courts have ruled over and over again that corporations have these rights after conservatives have fought for them for decades.  And I don't disagree!

Travel?  Governments can and do control who comes into this country.  If they want proof of vaccination, they can.

 

in what way is the gay wedding cake incident remotely related to the possibility of countrywide mass surveillance controlling your movements in and out of various locations based upon whether or not you got a shot that isn't fully approved (1/3 approved as of today) by the FDA with zero recognition of natural immunity?

you really need a course in discourse bro. we get it, you hate trump, you hate conservatives. go find a hobby, or a sexual partner you can have a nice romp with to clear your head.

btw, I got my shot but recoil at the possibility of having to prove it over and over again for a fucking restaurant. I understand college stuff, had to do meningitis or whatever for that, but one and done, not constant monitoring

 

Companies can turn away gay wedding cakes.

Companies can turn away unvaccinated people.  Scared of surveillance?  Too bad.  Find a new store.

That's the law, and that's what conservatives fought for.

 
Drumpfy

Conservatives fought for decades to give companies the right to do this and other stuff.  Most recently the gay wedding cake incident. But then the culture war happened and they became oppressed and need the government to save them from corporations mandating vaccines or Zucc's ban hammer.  Oh well :(:(:(

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/first-amendment-regul…

Anyways, it's hilarious to see them cry about having to show a piece of paper when entering a restaurant.

The difference is pretty obvious. The Left wants to deputize non-government entities to do what the government isn't empowered to do, e.g., regulate speech. The courts have acknowledged that private actors working on behalf of the government are an extension of the state.

Array
 

No.  Republicans lag in vaccinations.  Most of the elected officials are vaccinated, but regular citizens are among the least vaccinated populations.

I hypothesize that there's a sizable % difference between suburban Republicans and rural as well, although I don't have any meaningful data to back it up.  

Array
 

No.  Republicans lag in vaccinations.  Most of the elected officials are vaccinated, but regular citizens are among the least vaccinated populations.

Like I said, "most of the GOP". And as much as the stereotypical unvaccinated person is a MAGA hat wearing redneck (and there's some truth to that), there are also other groups that are lagging even further behind in vaccination rate which vote overwhelmingly D, we just don't hear about those every 5 minutes.

 

The politicians?  Yeah, most of them understand the vaccine works but they'll get tarred and feathered by their base if they push it hard, so they very carefully teeter the line

 

I have no issues with vaccines, they shouldn't be mandated but again generally no issue with them. However, any kind of vax pass is insane, I made this point in another post but the biggest issues that come with vax passes are the data privacy issues. You're essentially documenting everywhere you go and everything you do, it's Facebook check-in on steroids. Granted the data won't be made public but at some point the data will be commoditized and sold, there is a reason tech companies are so eager to "help" roll them out and it isn't because they care about the general well being of the population.

 

Personally disagree with forced vaccination and vaccine passports. I am vaccinated because I understand the importance but also had no choice. With that being said, vaccine passports will serve as a precedent for any future "passports" or invasions of privacy the government wants to enforce. That is my concern. The vast majority of the population does not take into consideration the implications of something that may seem insignificant now because it will not stop at just this.  

"when you give the government an inch, they take a mile"

 

I am 100% pro vax.  100% anti the current covid poison being foisted on honest people and 100% against vaccine passports and the horrific mandates that will segregate our society (I fear permanently...)

I will also be the first in line (every year it looks like) when Novavax gets approved and need my pneumonia shot and flu shot this year.

Namaste. D.O.U.G.
 

It's 2021. Honest discussion is out of the window. Liberals aren't interested in it. Only partisan hatred.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.
 

When did "it's a private company" become the go-to liberal excuse for obviously authoritarian and invasive behavior? Not to mention that the phrasing makes it seem like these are innocent little mom & pop businesses and not very well-connected conglomerates. Given the deeply entrenched relationships of these companies to the federal government, it is a bit dubious to act like these are just purely independent entities and not at all corrupt parties providing outsourced services to the government. Even if you are the most aggressively autistic anarcho-capitalist libertarian, you would not be fine with this collusion of state and corporate power. Why are liberals for it?

Also, when did liberals become such giant bootlickers for the worst aspects of corporate America? Imagine explaining to some hippie leftist in 1980 that the liberals of the future would be simping for Pfizer and Microsoft and view working class people as a terrorist threat.

"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn
 

This is my position. Are you sure all of your right leaning friends are anti-vax? 

 

Are we talking about a passport or just proof of vaccination?  The two are not the same.  I'm extremely pro-vax and pro vax mandates, but I too have doubts about a scannable vaccine passport that's mandatory.  There are lots of ways to show proof of vaccination without mandating a scannable, trackable passport (physical cards, photos of said cards, non-scannable electronic records).  For everyone who's freaking out, in NYC I haven't had a single restaurant or bar actually scan my Excelsior Pass - they just look at it and that's it.  We're not at the "government tracks everywhere you go" phase yet.  

 

Pro vaccine (vaccinated myself), anti passport, CA conservative. Not anti passport for any hypothetical freedoms like most others, but because it won't work. Practically it just adds tremendous cost and millions of people will just fake their results anyway. Random businesses will or will not comply, so there won't be any public health benefit but it will piss everyone off. This stuff only works in a society that still works together, ours is fundamentally broken even in the face of a very straightforward shared enemy. Not just talking about Covid.

Do you think that most anti-vaccination Republicans know that Pres Trump, Texas Gov Abbott, Fla Gov DeSantis etc. are all vaccinated? The elite on both sides are all vaccinated but they'll let regular people fight each other to their heart's content about whatever political issue of the day.

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
 

They know that Trump is vaccinated because they constantly praise Operation Warp Speed and when Trump was in office he regarded the vaccines as "the finest vaccines made by the smartest people in the world." I think it's more of "Trump is 70+, had underlying health issues and isn't in the best of shape whereas I will be fine" sort of mentality. Also some people are opting out of the vaccine due to religious reasons, and in that case Trump having the vaccine is moot since we all know he's (at best) nominally religious. Can't really speak to Abbott or DeSantis as I don't know what sort of signaling they've been doing with the vaccine. 

Array
 

Let everyone do as he sees fit. If someone is against vaccination, then let him keep his opinion to himself. However, if you work in government agencies, then you need to be vaccinated. But anti-vaccinators also find a solution here. Many of them fake a certificate that they are vaccinated. I have two friends made, but I will not name the names because they may have problems. By the way, they work in the police, can you imagine? I was also offered to make a fake certificate when I was in California in one of the services called california fake id. So I think that everyone is right here.

 

Putting corporate legalities aside, a few thoughts:
1) Take a step back, do you want to live in a society that has to prove ID + share medical info in order to get a coffee from Starbucks? We went from having medical information be your most sensitive data - HIPAA data is a fortress you do not fuck with - to trading your medical data to enter a building.
2) Do you believe this data will be safe now that you've left the HIPAA fortress? Equifax leaked 143 million people's data, Experian leaked 15 million. It is a guarantee a leak will happen. 
3) Now that your personal medical data is leaked, can you think of any ways this data might be used nefariously? Use your imagination. I work in data analytics and some of it is insanely unethical. This is a fucking bad, bad, bad idea. The implications, and way this will get used, are hellish. Financial data (Equifax et al.) + Psychometric data (Cambridge Analytics et al.) + Medical data (Vax Pass et. al) is a hellscape. A genuine pandora's box of targeting and manipulation. 
4) Why would a person who has experienced COVID/delta need to get the vaccine? They've already fought the most recent version of the virus, not an outdated, manufactured strain.
5) We went from striving to remove segregation (based on skin colour) to enforcing it (based on medical choices). 

A vaccination passport is a dystopian nightmare that I want nothing to do with. I suspect more people might feel this way if they got past the immediate COVID fears and looked 10 years into the future.

Just had my trade dispute rejected by Schwab for a loss of 35k. This single issue alone should be a gigantic red flag to anyone who trades on their platform. If they have a system error, and you do not video record your trading (they actually said this), they will not honour their fuck up. Switching everything away from them. Fuck this company.
 

A bit ominous rhetoric. I’ll let people keep fighting the good fight but it’s as if the government and dozens of private companies don’t already have all of our most personal and intimate data. As for HIPAA, I mean hospitals have all our medical data as well as insurance company and the government for veterans, and they have ransomware hacks all the time.

Clearly I’m an outlier but I’ve just given up to the reality that all my info is out there and fuck it. So what if Starbucks knows I am vaccinated, fuck it.

The whole slippery slope argument can be made at any stage, but I don’t think we’re falling off the slope here if there is some sort of passport system in place. I’ll bet when the government started mandating drivers licenses there was similar uproar and shit. Maybe not cuz people weren’t as polarized back then to these kind of issues. Just good old fashion racists back in the day.

I don’t think it’s a bad idea IF executed properly and enforced uniformly etc. but we all know it won’t be and will probably be effectively useless so its all moot anyways.

 

Just because you've resigned yourself to giving up doesn't mean others have. I think it's exactly as ominous as the reality will reflect, not any more or less.

If you don't recognize that this data will be used nefariously, I probably can't convince you otherwise (since the comment above didn't).
If you do recognize that this data will be used nefariously but don't care, not much point in me elaborating past this sentence.

Just had my trade dispute rejected by Schwab for a loss of 35k. This single issue alone should be a gigantic red flag to anyone who trades on their platform. If they have a system error, and you do not video record your trading (they actually said this), they will not honour their fuck up. Switching everything away from them. Fuck this company.
 

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