Post grad struggle
I know this isn't the typical kind of post on this site but I was looking for a place to open up about this and see if others feel the same way/release some stress.
I graduated a year ago from a non-target in the south (still highly respected) but only chose the institution through heavy coercion from peers and family because "it doesn't matter where you go to school" and a parent stating "I have Harvard grads working for me" (He was a very non-target graduate but it has since started a program that produces extremely high-quality IB talent). I say this because I was a student-athlete with the dream of being a D1 athlete. I had my recruitment from 3 schools primarily - my actual school (in my state), UPenn, Cornell. Suffice to say, I really fell for the BS regardless of how much information I was trying to get with regard to job placement and networking. (both Penn and Cornell were the college of arts and science, I would not have been accepted to undergrad business) I was unaware of target schools and IB at the time I made my decision. I enrolled and fell into a depression because my athletics were not going as I had hoped, we were a very athletically inclined school (It was one of the most prestigious and legendary programs for my given sport in the country and has a global reputation) so I was in an off-campus apartment, excluded from other students and all my roommates had failed out by the time fall semester ended. I had a desire to quit and transfer out back closer to home and attend a better academic institution (although only ranked slightly higher than my current school). I even had a fairly serious back injury but was told not to give up and convinced to stay. The following year came around and I was applying to internships without the knowledge of how networking and school reputation played a factor in where I would get returns on my resume. The athletic office would contact me about networking but only knew how to get football players high school coaching jobs after they graduated because they got fairly worthless degrees in order to be eligible to play. I spent every summer working as an assistant to my former trainer as a way to give back and inspire young athletes that they can also become great in their sport but knew that I was covering up for the fact that I was receiving constant rejection regardless of how much effort I put in. I channeled that frustration in my athletic training and managed to develop decently well. I graduated having an above-average athletic career but overall a very dismissable performance for the program I was a part of. I always wanted to work in the investing world. I had a love for it that began my freshman year and only grew throughout my college career. My school had terrible career fairs and did not have any respectable on-campus recruiting for my major (finance). And by respectable, I don't mean GS or bust, I legitimately mean anything that could be considered a firm that would hire a financial analyst.
I was told all throughout my 4 years that I would be able to find a job upon graduation. That somehow, I had strong family connections that would get me interviews that I could springboard into a successful entry-level position. Upon graduation, I had my first interview and had one serious question asked of me "Can you tell us what EBITDA stands for?". I studied finance so I was confused why that was even a question but I answered. After that, they said, "well, several people we hire don't know what it means so we don't have to catch you up at all". I was a little surprised but didn't think anything of it because they were nice people and the company is actually a very highly respected and successful firm in the south. I will add that my parent is very good friends with the president of said firm. The following day, I get a phone call "Hey Name it was great meeting you and we think you're a really smart guy and going to be successful, but we interviewed someone who has a year of experience so we aren't going to hire you."
I was like ok, I'm clueless. I didn't think anything of it and just proceeded to apply to more firms. I started applying to several firms and initially, I was getting phone screenings but they all ended the same way "we are looking for more experience" (these were entry-level positions that were not IB analyst or anything at that caliber). One interview even went as far as to imply that it was a shame that I was a student-athlete before ending the interview. I even sat down with someone that I know fairly well in their office (I cannot say who they are for the privacy of them and also myself but they are one of the most famous and well-connected people alive) and had a great 2-hour conversation but unable to figure out leads on my next step or how to get out of this slump. I started reading WSO and noticing how poorly my school was viewed in business recruiting and that was when I started to realize that I was correct in my assumptions in high school but it was too late to change anything. I was told to not think about the past and not regret anything. But that's easy when you're not a compulsively analytical person who will find the smallest nuance to analyze. I dug up old emails and contacts of how coaches at other extremely highly respected schools recruited me. I lamented on the fact that I spent a large portion of my time in college traveling back and forth from my home city because I was introverted and did not do greek life so the only things I could do were sports and school. This all fueled anxiety fuel all-nighters where I would obsessively rewrite my resume hoping to make it 1% better each time. I scoured Linkedin for every possible job opening I could apply for (6 months post-grad at this point). For 2 months straight I stopped exercising and sat in the same spot from 8:30 am until 2:45 am every day with my only break being to eat something for 10 minutes in the afternoon. I applied to hundreds of jobs and received no returns. I connected with every alumni from my school that worked in the finance industry with the hope that I could get any leads on how to start. I got one lucky break with making a super day in new york from an application that I had sent in before I even graduated college (the first 3 steps were immediate and then the super day was so far away that I thought I had been rejected). I get there, it's a beautiful building and an excellent firm for finance. We are guided around and the two people there that I met both told me "you learn everything here in the first 6 months, when I got here, I didn't know what a bond was". I was like ok well the pay is good and it's an incredible company so I can just demonstrate who I am and why I like finance and they will surely like me. I get into the interview and I am immediately grilled on every personal trait that I have. Life growing up, life as a student-athlete, a time where I struggled, leadership roles that I assumed when I did and didn't want to. Finally, we get to my experience in business and I discuss that I have a degree from an undergraduate business program and did a lot of trading outside (not like Robinhood yolo calls but actual portfolio building) and loved it and that's what I want my career to be about. They loved that and I walked out of the interview thinking that I killed it. A week later I get my rejection email. I panic and begin thinking that I have nowhere else to turn.
I frantically am back on my routine of LinkedIn all day and each night I fall into a deeper depression seeing how every job that I apply for has a degree from a top school that I got into but did not attend. I had exhausted LinkedIn with every alum I could get in touch with and sent out one final hail mary direct email to see if something could come up. By some miracle, I get a return email and get interviewed by the two founders. (this was a very young and small firm just getting established). They extended me an offer to become an IB analyst for them. I thought this was perfect, all that work was paying off. Covid lockdowns hit 2 days after accepting the position. The position was as a summer analyst with the intent to be hired full time at the end. Fast forward 3 months, lockdowns had hurt the business enough that they had to pause hiring and I was unable to be hired full time. Great guys, loved the firm, just very disappointed in how it ended. I thought, this is it, I'm done. . I was 12 months from my graduation and I had not enough experience to get into entry-level. I spent another 2 months with non-stop applications but this time I wasn't even able to get a phone screening.
So that brings us to today. I am a graduate with a degree from a respected school, I was a 4-year letter winner on one of the most competitive and hard to be recruited programs in the country. I spent my entire 4 years grinding on my athletics and academics and isolating myself from everything else with the hope that the hard work pays off. I finished with a decent GPA (3.3). I wasn't looking for the Goldman IB or JPM IB type of job, I was just trying for entry-level. Now with Covid, everything is just exacerbated. TBH feeling like a wasted life and waste of space. Thinking about trying to apply to law school with the hopes of turning things around. But I'd be lying if I said that I already feel like a failure and that they would probably reject me too.
If anyone read this or even got down this far, I greatly appreciate your time. I just needed to share this and since it's anon, I still felt like I could be open. Sorry if any of this came across as wanting pity, please don't give me any. I just had to open up about this somewhere because it's been weighing on me too hard.
Wishing anyone who reads this the best and nothing but success.
You had your first interview upon graduation? Seems incredibly late.
You might have to intern or temp your way into a role.
what's up bro. read your post. might be easier to get advice from other people on here if you also post a condensed version. don't think that I am the wisest person to be giving advice but going to law school as an escape seems like a bad idea. how did you like the IB internship? how did you like being an assistant to your former trainer?
Appreciate you taking the time to read. Addressing the few points you asked, I liked the internship but also wasn’t able to get a full in office experience or go through a more developed training program like what larger firms might have. It was a very new firm and just then starting to look for a summer analyst. It was remote since I was in a different city from the lockdown but I learned a lot in the short time I was working for them.
Law school mainly came about because I’ve always been told I should’ve been a lawyer because I’m competitive and a strong debater. I mainly considered it because with covid staying around for the near future, job prospects look weak for even highly qualified candidates so I thought more school might help. I don’t have the resume to get into any noteworthy MBA. If I pulled a ton of strings I could maybe do Cox but even a solid gmat doesn’t overcome the negligible experience pre mba and prospects probably wouldn’t really look at me post graduation. With law I kind of saw it as a little experience alternative where I could just devote all my time to studying and graduating near the top and attempting to get into a decent law firm and pivot over into M&A.
With helping my old trainer, I liked it but know it’s not sustainable. It’s something easy for me because I’ve been an athlete my entire life so it’s teaching young athletes all the little things I learned along the way that I know will give them an advantage.
If you want to go to law school you have to really love the law. I would mention though that the LSAT is somewhat of a fun exam to study for versus say the MCAT.
If I were in your shoes I would try to get a really simple job that doesn’t mean even need a college degree (like bank teller) at a regional firm. Then, if you do well after maybe 3-6 months try to internally lateral into the roles that require college education. Also I would sit for the CFA. Sitting at home is depressing and is only leading to a larger gap on the resume which isn’t good. I’m too young to actually give career advice, I’m just telling you what I would do. Take it or leave it.
Hey man. I understand what your going through...
Many people go through what you’re experiencing and have to deal with the frustration of investing time in building themselves up for a career and not being given a shot. You’re told that the people who work hard and have the right skillsets get the jobs, but it’s not that simple. You might have have the capacity and drive to do "more" than someone with one year of experience, but the recruiters won't care because they don't want to "spend money" training you. At times they may think you’re overqualified and won’t hire you because you might leave. Hopefully, you get a chance to reflect on how a title or certain career path does not make the person.
It seems that you've been “toughing it out” and still aiming high (or reasonable) with the jobs, but I'm going to advise you against doing this. Lower your standards significantly and take a temp job or any random, but relevant, job. Then, while you're working this job, start networking. Trying to hold out for the role you think you qualify for will only delay your career and personal growth. Furthermore, firing endless amounts of resumes and sitting through the bs that recruiters and interviewers put you through will also not help you mentally.
To aid in the above, I highly recommend the 2 hour job search for networking. The book helps you set up a methodical way of networking to find leads for jobs.
With your college degree you should be able to easily get an entry level credit analyst or lending support role at a commercial bank that’s on the smaller side. Just in case you really want to avoid the temp thing. I really would leave the temp thing as somethign of a last resort... look into commercial banking.
If you have any questions feel free to reach out.
If possible, try to provide more details about your target jobs and your region so that you can get more tailored advice. Also, don’t stress out right now about the gap in your resume as you can blame it on covid.
Just wanted to add some perspective here since I have a similar background to you. I graduated from a non-target on the west coast and played baseball there.
Linkedin:
I'm not trying to discourage you, however, sitting on LinkedIn for that long is a poor use of time. The odds of you landing an offer off of Linkedin are probably less than 5%. Instead, I would spend that time studying for the CFA, LSAT/GMAT/GRE, etc., learning a programming language, or improving your modeling skills. Still apply for positions each day just don't make applying to jobs the only thing you're doing. In interviews, you want to show that you're continuing to get better with concrete examples not just applying to every shop in town. I took the same approach as you following graduation applying everywhere on LinkedIn and it was the second biggest mistake I made.
The biggest mistake I made was stopping exercising during all of this. I ended up putting on 30 LBS and felt like shit both physically and mentally, which will seep into a lot of other areas of your life. You don't have to train for 4+ hours a day like you did when you played a sport but you can easily afford 1-2.
Grad School:
You mentioned law school above. Since you're interested in finance have you considered an MSF? Getting into these programs won't be nearly as competitive as getting into law school and if you go to a school like Vandy you'll have a shot at recruiting for FO roles.
Network:
Work on maintaining the network you've built since graduating. Even though it didn't work out if you maintain those relationships over 5+ years the work you've already done will pay dividends.
Therapy:
Not sure what your financial situation is like but I'd recommend talking to a professional about all that you're going through if you can swing it or a close friend. Talking to a therapist helped me immensely when I stopped playing ball and got me to examine my life so that I could start making healthier steps to achieve my goals.
Happy to answer any other questions you may have.
What route would you recommend to looking for jobs, since you mentioned that using LinkedIn heavily was a mistake?
Networking and OCR will be how 95% or more of people get their jobs. Seeing as OP has graduated networking will be how he gets his job or sets himself up well for FT recruiting entering into a master's program with OCR. He should be applying to jobs on LinkedIn and company websites, however, applying to 50+ jobs per day without networking is useless. The chances of him getting an interview are exponentially low (less than 5%).
I recently spoke with someone running the hiring process for a group at a BB (MS/JPM/GS) and he told me they got about 10,000 applications. Of that, the systems weeded out 9,000 on a variety of factors (school, GPA, experience, etc.). He then had to go through 1,000 resumes and screen candidates. He said he looked mainly at school, experience, and a quick scan to see if they had a common interest (volunteering, windsurfing, etc.). They ended up interviewing 10-15 candidates and 5 of them came from his UG (semi target in the northeast). The others he said had a significant internship or work experience that stood out relative to other candidates.
This example is anecdotal but unless you went to a target or a semi target the only way to get past the screen at multiple banks is networking. Otherwise, if you apply on LinkedIn/Company website you're betting that you won't get screened out because of your school, GPA, work experience, etc. If you manage to make it past the screen having not networked you're running the risk that the guy screening your resume has any connection to your non-target at all, which is highly unlikely. There will be people with stories of how they got jobs off of LinkedIn but those people are exceptions and not the norm.
From my own job search, I applied to 1,000 positions in NYC in 2018/2019 so pre-COVID having completed 3 IB internships (2 MM Banks and 1 BB on the west coast where I received FT offers which I turned down because I wanted to be in NYC). I heard back from 15 companies out of those 1,000 (networked to get 5 of those interviews). I ended up getting final round interviews at 9/15 places I interviewed and got offers from 3 firms. If I were in OP's shoes in today's environment I doubt I would have even got 5 interviews.
OP you may have done this but when you say you've exhausted your alumni network have you gone outside of your school when networking? If you went to Georgia for example and are applying to Credit Analyst jobs at BOA in Charlotte you should be reaching out to every SEC grad or non-target grad working at the bank in a similar function. I think you'll ultimately find that most people are willing to help and understand where you're coming from.
This is excellent advice on all points.
OP, you sound like you have significant anxiety about this. First step is getting that under control, therapy is absolutely worth the money.
Highly recommend looking into an MSF degree. You need to be ready to hit the ground running with networking when you get there (NOT waiting until graduation, only doing applications, or obsessing over your resume. You need to cold email heavily). MSF programs are also only 1-2 years, far less of a commitment than law school.
this is why college isn’t worth 250k
Just DM-ed you. Fellow Southeastern student athlete a few yrs ahead of you. Might not be ibd, but have some thoughts.
So you are not working / available as of right now? That's good - I have an idea for you to work with me on something in the leveraged finance capital markets / direct lending space that you could add to your resume almost immediately to compete for future roles at a minimum. You're a sports guy, I'm a sports guy too no experience necessary. Take a look at my thread of comments on WSO to get an idea of what my wheelhouse is, if you are unsure. Hit me up!
I'm sorry to hear about your predicament. there was another user a little bit ago in a similar situation and I spent some significant time analyzing and replying, take a look: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/unemployed-and-living-in-parents….
I'm happy to answer further questions here if you still have some unanswered, don't be shy (just don't be a dick like the last one haha!)
Holy shit, had you tried speaking with your manager about exit opps and such?
Why would I ask my boss about opportunities at other firms? That's guaranteed to get anyone fired
People seem generally flexible with either internal moves or buyside references after working for a team for a few years, have had several analysts in my group move that way, but guessing this stuff could vary depending on the group itself
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