Post-MBA IB Mega Thread

Hey everyone,

This site has a lot of information available for prospective analysts but lacks a lot of content for prospective associates. Since we are in MBA application season, I thought it may be helpful to create a mega thread that discusses investment banking as a post business school career.

Here are some existing sources that may be helpful:

General:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ask-me-anyth...

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/investment-ban...

Recruiting:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/90-conversio...

Compensation:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ibd...

Exit Opportunities:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ib-...

Life in Post-MBA IB:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ibd...

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ass...

I will be attending business school starting fall of 2015 and had some questions that I thought the above posts didn't answer.

1) With no finance background, what can a prospective associate do before attending business school to prepare themselves for IB? How common are pre-MBA IB internships? Are there any introduction to finance books that would be helpful?

2) How many years of experience do you need in IB before you can land a good corporate development role? What are some other common exit opportunities?

3)Do M7 IB associates get placed in industry groups or M&A groups? How common is it for them to enter other product groups?

4) How much does the workload change as you progress from A1 to VP year over year?

Thanks!

Comments (135)

 
10/23/14

Awesome post. Can't provide too much into associate-relevant info, sorry.

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10/23/14

1) Pre-MBA internships are rare, but some banks do have diversity pre-mba internships. Rosenbaum & Pearl is a great intro to investment banking book. Honestly, your accounting / corporate finance course first semester -- along with interview guides that your school will have -- will give you what you need for interviews. In terms of performance during the summer, take advanced modeling courses as well as the excel course.

2) Not sure, but antedoctally I have heard 2 is the minimum. Other exit opps are the same as what analysts have, except that rather than HFs, PE, etc. coming to recruit you will need to be more proactive in building a network, working with a HH, etc.

3) Depends on bank, but both. Some banks have generalists programs for the first year (e.g. MS), others give group specific offers (e.g. CS), and others give firm wide offers and place you after (e.g. BAML). That said, it comes down to your preferences and who you met in the recruiting process, as well as where they need. So associates go to product and coverage groups depending on these factors. Same line of thought for Lev Fin, Capital Markets, etc.

4) Can't comment since I haven't started, but my understanding is that while it may get better over time it really depends on your group.

- Current M7 student in final year going into IB full time

"They are all former investment bankers that were laid off in the economic collapse that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have no marketable skills, but by God they work hard."

 
10/24/14

OP, see the post about business as usual at Moelis LA - mentions VPs are sometimes there at 4am alongside their analysts and Moelis himself stays till 1am. Clearly not going to be like that everywhere, but as @CountryUnderdog says it depends on your group - I work in IB in Australia and when we are busy we are flat-out (US IB hours and sometimes more), but when it's a bit easier associates I work with find time go surfing every day before work. Just depends on bank and group (and to an extent, location).

 
10/29/14

It obviously will vary and VPs have to pull all-nighters in some cases to get shit done. But, overall, the work life balance is a considerable step up from the associate / analyst level. The toughest part for VPs is trusting and leveraging the people beneath them. You move from doing all of the detailed work to execution and review, a tougher transition than people give it credit for.

But, VPs with good deal experience and an understanding of how to leverage resources shouldn't be working more than 70 hours/week at most shops (there are exceptions - particularly elite boutiques).

 
10/30/14
CountryUnderdog wrote:

1) Pre-MBA internships are rare, but some banks do have diversity pre-mba internships. Rosenbaum & Pearl is a great intro to investment banking book. Honestly, your accounting / corporate finance course first semester -- along with interview guides that your school will have -- will give you what you need for interviews. In terms of performance during the summer, take advanced modeling courses as well as the excel course.

2) Not sure, but antedoctally I have heard 2 is the minimum. Other exit opps are the same as what analysts have, except that rather than HFs, PE, etc. coming to recruit you will need to be more proactive in building a network, working with a HH, etc.

3) Depends on bank, but both. Some banks have generalists programs for the first year (e.g. MS), others give group specific offers (e.g. CS), and others give firm wide offers and place you after (e.g. BAML). That said, it comes down to your preferences and who you met in the recruiting process, as well as where they need. So associates go to product and coverage groups depending on these factors. Same line of thought for Lev Fin, Capital Markets, etc.

4) Can't comment since I haven't started, but my understanding is that while it may get better over time it really depends on your group.

- Current M7 student in final year going into IB full time

Hey CountryUnderdog, thanks for the insight. pm'ed you on this.

 
10/24/14

Our group is/was rough, and VPs don't stay past 7PM easily.

 
10/29/14

@"Bullet-Tooth Tony" , why are elite boutiques worse for hours? If that is the case, is BB better for a long-term career in IB?

 
10/29/14

1) Excel, corporate finance and accounting - youll be fine / not common unless you're a minority / that Rosenbaum book is allegedly good but i got about 3 pages in and bailed. The Scoop practitioners guide is better imo.

2) Had friends get them after a year. Depends on the state of the industry - e.g. ton of PE-backed energy companies currently, always looking for associate level BD guys. Might not be the case in the shipping industry (or whatever). Corp dev is the only exit I've seen in my 2.5 years out (other than doing banking somewhere else or doing something completely random)

3) If you are recruiting for NY, it's basically a match system. You pref, they pref. At that point you're hired - no one cares about your school unless guys in a certain group went there and prefer alums. And there is plenty of IB hiring at schools outside the mythical M7. This is a separate rant but, to me there are 2-3 schools at the top, maybe 2 more a notch down and then the rest of the top ~15-20. Outside of those top 3 i would go to a school that places well in your desired post-grad geography. I promise you people are going to think you're half-retarded if you are interviewing for a job in California and tell them you chose Columbia over UCLA because it was a few notches higher on US news. /end rant

4) Going to be highly group dependent (number of and personality of MDs, VPs, etc) but in general I would say associate is pretty rough and VP gets a lot better. As an Ass, You get faster and more efficient but you also get correspondingly more work. You'll also start getting staffed with first year analysts as you progress which is pretty painful if you've been used to 2nd yrs in your early Ass years. In my experience the jump to VP is considerable step upward, in general. You can usually get away with outlining the book and answering questions rather than doing it yourself. And, in theory, 2 people checked the book before you saw it, you are not expected to be there late in most cases.Trade off is you may be the VP on 4 books at once (split among 2 or 3 associates). You need to know the shit cold but you weren't in the weeds like the junior staff. You'll travel more which is a grind when you have to come home and catch up on the all the shit to review (v. when you can work on it all day). Like every level, more latitude but more responsibility. And caveat on all of that is this can be HIGHLY variable depending on personalities of the senior guys.

 
11/25/15

Thanks for pulling this together, I managed to land a full-time job as a BB associate after not recruiting for summer IB, so I'm looking to soak up as much as I can.

 
 
11/25/15

Are you asking about how to break into IB or PE/VC? I think going straight into PE/VC is a stretch but will depend heavily on your background.

I recently broke into IB from a top-20 ish level MBA program. The lower ranked schools won't have as strong OCR and formal processes to break into IB like the M7, so it will really come down to how hard you are willing to network on your own. It will also help if the school has a lot of alumni that are in the field (regardless if they are undergrad/grad alumni).

If you go in on a mission from day 1, it is definitely possible. You will also need a good answer to the question "If you knew you wanted to get into IB, then why didn't you just go to a target MBA program?". No textbook answer to this question. Sometimes they are just being dicks and sometimes they really just want to understand your decision making. I had my reasons, but also found that the most well received rationale was $.

 
11/25/15

Yes, breaking into IB.

 
11/25/15

If you have good experience pre-MBA and prepare well, you won't have any trouble breaking into BB banking from a Top 15 school (Ross, Fuqua, Stern, Anderson, etc)

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
 
 
11/25/15

Check with career services at Cornell.

 
11/25/15

I've seen a lot of Johnson guys on the street in terms of IB. I haven't really seen them on buyside though.

 
11/25/15

I know the BB recruit quite a few kids from Johnson every year. Haven't seen a strong presence among the EB/MM though.

 
11/25/15

Johnson does great with IB, especially recently with the M7 losing interest in the industry. I think 20%+ get a IB job from Johnson, but def check the employment report.

 
 
11/25/15

So you graduated in 2010? What tier consulting firm do you work for? if it is MBB, then I think, you are still in decent shape. If not, then you might come off as just leaving because you didnt get one of those.

Either way, I think that this is doable, if you can spin the "some finance experience" and consulting experience hard into banking skills.

I think you have a better chance in banking then S&T - S&T is pretty difficult, even for those still in school.

Why don't you reach out to classmates and alumni a few years older? If your still a fresh mba, then I'm sure there are some VP's/MD's who are not too far removed to help out a fellow schoolmate.

This will have to be something that you have to stay on top of though, and it might take some time. If you think about it, I'm sure there are current bankers at your level thinking the same thing you are. So, if they jump during the year, then off-cycle spots are your best bet since you won't be competing with current students.

 
11/25/15

I think you have options. I don't think you will have much luck getting into a training program simply because the banks are quite rigid about filling those programs from schools in my experience.

My first thought here is that each bank will be different so the first step will be networking your way into each bank to get some sense of how each bank would handle working you into the system. Use your school networks to get contacts in the banks, reach out and introduce yourself and ask for advice on how to navigate such a change at each firm. After you start that process, if it is going to work, then you will start to see the path at each firm become a bit more clear.

Hope that helps.

 
11/25/15

It's going to be hard to believe you are serious about IB. If you don't have some "wow" factor then it will be very difficult. Can you at least kick butt on the technical questions in an IB interview?

 
11/25/15

Your lack of caring as to whether you do S&T or IB will undoubtedly come off as you only caring about BB type compensation. Am i right?

 
11/25/15

Good- question, and the post was poorly phrased on my part.

I'd much prefer IB. The type of analysis entailed is one I identify with, and I'm much more transaction oriented as oppose to having the necessary mentality for the trading floor. I just know how hard the transition may be.

I don't have any more skills relating to the technical questions than would the typical MBA from a finance-oriented school. Are there any course you can recommend as a refresher?

 
 
11/25/15

#2 sounds like the obvious choice to me. Your MBA program is less important if you are actually gaining good experience. You are not on a path to BB/EB, but you can still make a good career out of boutique and MM banking.

 
11/25/15

Thanks man.

What are the typical exit opportunities after a few years at a non-elite boutique bank?

Is there a way to continue pursuing education after getting MBA? (other than PHD). I would like to have a name-brand school on my resume at some point in my career.

When it comes to CFA, do you find it useful at all in my situation? I heard that banks in Europe/Asia recognize CFA and place more weight on it compared to the ones in U.S. Here in U.S., it seems that pursuing CFA makes more sense for those looking to work in AM\/ER. Other than that, what would be the right way to take advantage of my free time while at school?

Appreciate your advice!

 
11/25/15

Depends on the level. Boutiques range from solid industry specialist groups to general M&A shops that do nice MM transactions to weasly business brokers that call themselves Ibankers. Generally speaking, you would be looking to do PE or corp dev.

Also, do not simply dismiss the notion that a lifetime in IB is a bad gig. I know plenty of MDs that are living a good life, financially and otherwise.

CFA would not do anything for you unless you pass all of the exams. Nobody wants to hear about someone passing L1 of the CFA. If you pass them all, it could be more attractive on the buy side for credit/equity funds, but IB doesn't care nearly as much (few exceptions).

Focus on understanding transactions and modeling. Paying for BIWS prep sessions are critical to becoming a good analyst. If you can efficiently do analyst work, you get more time to work with transactions from a higher-level perspective.

 
 
11/25/15

Great questions that I'm very interested in as well.

 
11/25/15

A lot will vary on where you are and policy of the firm. Some banks have their regional offices recruit to hire only for that office, whereas others (barcap por ejemplo) might recruit for their regional office but technically you are hired into the associate pool and could go to snot her group if you so chose (or so they say).

You're definitely not forced somewhere based on experience but in some instances it might be highly desirable (e.g oil and gas, or chemicals helps to know some of the technical detail).

I think from the candidates perspective, the likability of the people is number 1 consideration, all else (relatively) equal,

 
11/25/15

At the two firms I've worked at (a BB and a top boutique) the post MBA associates tended to have been in a group-related industry before, but this was not a rule, it just might give you some advantage. I can say from experience when you are valuing an electrical industrial firm, it helps to have an an engineer on your team.

afroman23

 
11/25/15

Bump--how does group selection work for the different BBs, especially GS?

 
11/25/15

1) Ideally yes but I've seen quite a few also start out in new industries (although primarily was driven by headcount issues in the teams they chose). Your experience is obviously one of the things you bring to the table so really a waste to place someone who worked at e.g. Boeing with Healthcare. However, if you really are not interested in the sector you worked in pre-MBA, don't think too difficult to switch to something that interests you with a bit of networking in the firm before you get placed. You typically get to pick preferences, however, this should not be a surprise to the bank, so do some networking before if you want to pick something they wouldn't expect

2) Would definitely pick a strong team (i.e. that has lots of deal flow and creds). Unless you've worked with a certain product in the past, most likely you will get placed in an industry team. MBA most useful there as you can use all the general strategy/marketing/operations knowledge much more (e.g. equity story/positioning/industry trends/M&A fit/etc.)

3) Still want to be in a strong team as an Associate with good deal flow and creds as you will get a better experience, better comp, higher likelihood of promotion, etc. It's often hard to know how dysfunctional a group is prior to joining or being in the bank - people you speak with won't put down their own team even if there are issues (unless there are serious problems and they are also leaving)

 
 
11/25/15

No, it is better to get into a worst 20 MBA.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.

 
11/25/15

Not to be rude but this is a really dumb question. you should strive to get into the best MBA program you can imo, the better the program the more opportunities you will have............

Array

 
11/25/15

Meant to go towards the direction of whether getting an MBA significantly increases your chance of getting into IB. Not comparing MBA schools. I am striving to get into the best MBA program.

 
11/25/15

What he said.

It's very doable from any top 20 program (assuming strong GPA + GMAT). Where the program falls within that spectrum just determines who much you have to hustle, and GS/JPM might be hard from the lower end of the spectrum.

 
11/25/15

If you are in a top 10-15 MBA school, its not that difficult if you can handle technicals, speak fluent English and are not socially awkward, especially since not many people recruit for banking these days. Of course, market conditions this year will determine class sizes for next year but most firms tend to stay within a reasonable band. Top 15-20 is still good though you'll have a better shot at regional and MM firms than top BBs/EBs

 
11/25/15

top 15-20 is kind of a variable.
M7, Fuqua, Haas, Stern, Yale SOM, Ross, Darden and alike are usually captured in most BB/MBB recruiting, because a M7 Admit can be easily taken by the other members of above for a full scholarship ride.

but once it gets to 15-20 for the Tepper Kelley and these "regional bests", then the recruiting start to vary a lot.

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11/25/15

At pretty much all the combined IBD events at the top banks, the most represented schools are always Wharton, Columbia, and Booth (IME). So if you haven't applied for the first two, I would try those.

Also, I want to caution one thing. MBA recruiting for Banking is HIGHLY relationship based. So when recruiting for NYC people without solid English skills struggle, A LOT, even if they have great backgrounds. I would consider this when you are thinking about what to recruit. This point is conjecture based on your writing in your post, so I may off base, but it's worth considering.

 
11/25/15

Thanks for the list of schools. I'm considering Wharton but not Columbia. Visited there few times but not sure it's place where I want to spend 2 yrs.

And good catch! :) English is not my 1st language. Any advice on improving these relevant skillsets?

 
11/25/15

Unfortunately, no, but good luck. I would say, outside of Wharton, CBS, and Booth, I'm big on Tuck for banking. I've also seen a surprisingly decent representation from Yale SOM, almost definitely better than Johnson.

 
11/25/15

let's see how far "luck' can take me. And yeah, I do hear Tuck and Yale are decent for IB as well.

 
11/25/15

M7 mostly.

Also look at top 20 schools located in the city you want to live in. As to the previous poster's point about banking being relationship based, you will have a MASSIVE leg up if you have the ability to run out and meet someone over your lunch break.

 
11/25/15

Correct me if I'm wrong... but I see a lot of top 20 b-schools send more ppl to IB than some M7s. Sure, more M7 ppl might have passion in sth else. I wonder how the IB recruiting landscape differs from solid top20 for IB vs M7?

 
11/25/15

Depends on the year/region. Right now it's pretty tight after #15.

And as mentioned location(and not mentioned, alumni) plays a role.

Don't underestimate how important chance is. If your school only has a few alumni and you hit it off great with them, it will do you more than a larger network you don't click with.....but just given how math works you've got better odds of a solid connection at a finance-heavy MBA program.

 
11/25/15

Saying 15 outside m7, I assume you refer to usnews ranking with NYU within top 15? (So... Hass, Tuck, Darden, Yale, Ross, Fuqua, Johnson, Stern)

 
11/25/15
"wtgib" wrote:

Saying 15 outside m7, I assume you refer to usnews ranking with NYU within top 15? (So... Hass, Tuck, Darden, Yale, Ross, Fuqua, Johnson, Stern)

No, not specifically. Only if you want to live in New York. Emory is great for the South as another example.

 
11/25/15

Those saying M7 for banking are very off the mark. Yes, all 7 of those schools will get you into banking but in reality, on Wharton, Booth and Columbia really place a lot of people in banks, particularly in New York. Stanford will place into VC/PE or West Coast banking and Harvard will place more in PE and a few people in IB--but most people there don't want to go into banking. MIT is more of a quant finance school and Kellogg isn't a great finance school at all--I mean it's fine and will teach you what you want to know, but people go there to do consulting or brand management.

Stern, Darden, Fuqua, Ross and Kennan-Flagler all easily have larger alumni networks in IBD than HBS, Stanford GSB, MIT or Kellogg--none of which are a core school at my BB bank. Yes you can get into IBD from these very good schools, but it will be through off campus networking at many places. Again, it's not an issue of ability but moreso that the students that go to Stanford, HBS, MIT and Kellogg tend to want to go into other fields, so banks also don't dedicate resources to targeting these schools.

As another poster mentioned, there are some schools that are very good for certain regions--Haas if you want SF, Rice and Texas for Houston, Emory for Atlanta, which should also be a consideration.

Get the employment report for each school you're interested in and see what banks recruit on campus there. In B-school, if you are a core school, you'll be competing against other students for dedicated spots--so being far from NY for networking isn't an issue at all. It only becomes an issue if you have to network on your own from a non-core school. For my business school, banks came down to campus multiple times a year and I made networking calls. I came to NY to meet people once before interviews.

 
11/25/15

Thanks Dat Guy for your input.

What you state here does aligns with what I have found so far.

It seems that you are currently working in BB post-MBA..

Mind if you tell us which MBA your attended? If you do not want to disclose specific name, is it M7, top15, etc?

I'm quite certain that I would like to pursue NYC IB.

And from my research, Cornell has been placing quite well. In fact, quite surprisingly successful for past few years.

With this particular post-mba plan in mind, I wonder if you have any other school in mind that places well (or so-called core schools). I'm considering applying to few schools R2.

Thanks in advance.

 
 
11/25/15

Were you in the military doing intelligence work right out of high school? I'm a little confused about your timeline since you only have 1 year of post-college work experience.

If that's the case, I'm not sure I would be so confident about gaining admission to a top program. The top MBA programs like the leadership expeience that some military applicants have, but those programs are not flooded with veterans.

If you could gain admission to a strong program, you should go. I'd suggest you try to get some counsel from some admissions folks as to your profile and timing. Here's a roadmap you might want to take a look at
How to Build Relationships with MBA Admissions Officers - http://bit.ly/13WX1J
Gotta Mentor
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Connect to the Advice & People
You Need to Achieve Your Career Goals

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Connect to the Advice & People
You Need to Achieve Your Career Goals

 
11/25/15

After a top 20 MBA how easy is it to get into a BB or MM for I Banking if you have not done the analyst stint but have a few years in related work ( read research & valuations, commercial banking etc .. )

And what about switching continents as well?

 
11/25/15

It is not hard to get into IB from a top 10/15 mba program, with or without applicable experience. You are not really competing with people who have IB experience, because they are looking for bigger and better things (PE, etc). Plenty of military guys get IB jobs out of an MBA without biz exp. Your background is not that uncommon.

I know an ex army officer (didn't even finish his commitment; he chaptered out) who got an IB job coming out of a school ranked around 30. If you get into a top 10 school you will be fine.

 
11/25/15

Sorry for any confusion, but yeah, I entered the military straight from high school, immediately went to college following my 4 year military commitment and graduated this past spring. So truthfully, the 1 year full time work comment isn't exactly accurate...my implication was that i wouldn't be applying directly from an undergrad program. as far as work is concerned, I worked full-time my first year in school, and part-time ever since (at some points more than 1 job), not including my internships (which always overlapped with my job(s)).

I certainly enjoyed my military stint and got to experience things many people will never have the opportunity to, but I have always felt I am a little behind given I just graduated at the age of 26, competing with 22 years old (for the most part), so maybe an MBA program will allow me to gain back a year or two.

I appreciate the advice you guys have given and would welcome any addition opinions anyone might have.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

 
11/25/15

I did military before college as well. It is kind of rare - going from enlisted man to top MBA. It's certainly doable. I don't know if your ready yet, career wise. I've done a good deal of research on this topic. PM me if you want to chat.

 
 
11/25/15

I know someone who was an elementary school teacher pre-MBA, went to a mediocre MBA program and is now a VP at a good MM bank after 3 years as an associate.

Just think of ways to tie your previous experience to Finance while developing your story. Anything is possible, although not always easy.

 
11/25/15

You can read almost anything and there's a pattern of people moving from political offices to the business world.

"Loser terrorists" & "bad hombres"

"Typical candidates are those who attended a top-tier academic institution"
-Most job applications

 
 
11/25/15

Columbia has good OCR. Work on developing your story for why IB and network. Figure this out over the summer and get your resume done before the start of school. Create a list of targets and start learning about them.

 
11/25/15

If you can, try to network your way into and complete a pre-MBA internship to get some relevant experience.

 
11/25/15

Probably want to start practicing your technicals in addition to the above as well.

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

 
11/25/15

The conversion rate is ~85-90% for BB recruiting from the M7 business schools (and most of the failures are international students). Don't sweat it. My friend got a C in finance 1 (bottom 5% of class) at Kellogg, and got offers at BAML, Citi, Deutsche, and two others I forget.

 
11/25/15

Hey guys. I was wondering about group placement post-MBA. If there is little to no banking experience, do you get placed in less favorable groups or can you request specific groups?

Thanks.

 
11/25/15
"MitchMitchell" wrote:

Hey guys. I was wondering about group placement post-MBA. If there is little to no banking experience, do you get placed in less favorable groups or can you request specific groups?

Thanks.

Less than 5% of people who do post-MBA IB have any banking experience. I can't think of one person who did this. Most are from completely outside of finance.

 
11/25/15
"Hillary2016" wrote:

MitchMitchell:Hey guys. I was wondering about group placement post-MBA. If there is little to no banking experience, do you get placed in less favorable groups or can you request specific groups?Thanks.

Less than 5% of people who do post-MBA IB have any banking experience. I can't think of one person who did this. Most are from completely outside of finance.

Thanks! I'm sure competition is going to be fierce for the top groups and locations. Good to see we all have a shot.

 
11/25/15

5% may be accurate, though I am not sure. I would add that close to 100% of post-MBA Associates have Summer Associate experience, however.

 
11/25/15

Networking, technical skill/interview prep, develop story/reason for transition...
Great advice, guys. Thanks a ton.

Any opinion on using WSO mentor (career coaching) service?

 
11/25/15

maybe its a bit different in the US, but in my London Summer Associate program most have a finance background. about a third even M&A.

Make Donald Drumpf again

 
 
11/25/15

Can you build a 3-statement from scratch? Ever created pitchbooks? u need gud technical base if u want to move up 2 sales-role.

You'll def be entering as 1st yr assoc.

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid
"I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad

 
11/25/15

ans to otter questions:
2. u r fine plenty of assoc older than u
3. yes, will b a bit harder and u will need to go thru standard long proces headhunters etc

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid
"I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad

 
11/25/15
mudkipz wrote:

ans to otter questions:
2. u r fine plenty of assoc older than u
3. yes, will b a bit harder and u will need to go thru standard long proces headhunters etc

CFA charter def helps

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid
"I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad

 
11/25/15

I'm pretty sure CFA charter isn't a huge asset for IBD.

 
11/25/15
Ipso facto wrote:

I'm pretty sure CFA charter isn't a huge asset for IBD.

wuz in response 2 exit to HF

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid
"I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad

 
11/25/15
Ipso facto wrote:

I'm pretty sure CFA charter isn't a huge asset for IBD.

It isn't, but it sure as shit isn't going to hurt him in a recruiting process. The content is only semi-relevant, but the dedication says something.

 
11/25/15
peinvestor2012 wrote:
Ipso facto:

I'm pretty sure CFA charter isn't a huge asset for IBD.

It isn't, but it sure as shit isn't going to hurt him in a recruiting process. The content is only semi-relevant, but the dedication says something.

Fair enough

 
11/25/15
jones2bc wrote:

Hey all,

I will be matriculating at NYU for MBA this fall and am considering IBD since the recruiting process seems fairly reliable. I have a few questions about IBD at this level (some of these are dupes from my post "IBD pay ... really that great?" that I would like more color on)

1. Without prior IBD experience, would one always start as a first year associate or could one enter at a higher level if he or she nails the interviews?

2. I will be 31 when I graduate - is this too old to start an IBD stint?

3. Does an IBD stint at the associate level (say 2 years) set one up well for buy side jobs? (My ultimate goal is to work in the public markets at a value-oriented fund, HF vs AM is not important as long as I can identify with the philosophy)

About me:

29 yr old white male, 6 yrs in PWM/FA, CFA charter, 720 GMAT

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

1) Almost without exception you will start out as a 1st year associate coming out of business school
2) I would say that age is irrelevant regarding when you start but stage in life can be important (i.e. are you married, do you have kids, are you single, etc.) IBD, especially at the junior levels, can be extremely difficult when you have a family and sacrifices are definitely required to make it work.

3) This is one thing that people often confuse. While an analyst gig at a bank will set you up well for a buyside transition this is not necessarily the case for associate level and above. When you are hired as an associate you are expected to gradually move up the ranks within your organization or lateral to other banks to expedite the climb. Transferring to corporate level jobs is one exit opportunity that many associates take to the extent that they get burnt out.

If your goal is to work at a HF or on the buyside there are better routes to take than going post MBA banking > buyside but unfortunately this process is made more difficult without pre-MBA buyside experience.

If you want to do traditional asset management you should apply to those roles upon graduation and avoid banking. A CFA is valuable in traditional asset management but much less so in banking, PE, and HFs.

 
11/25/15
junkbondswap wrote:
jones2bc:

Hey all,

I will be matriculating at NYU for MBA this fall and am considering IBD since the recruiting process seems fairly reliable. I have a few questions about IBD at this level (some of these are dupes from my post "IBD pay ... really that great?" that I would like more color on)

1. Without prior IBD experience, would one always start as a first year associate or could one enter at a higher level if he or she nails the interviews?

2. I will be 31 when I graduate - is this too old to start an IBD stint?

3. Does an IBD stint at the associate level (say 2 years) set one up well for buy side jobs? (My ultimate goal is to work in the public markets at a value-oriented fund, HF vs AM is not important as long as I can identify with the philosophy)

About me:

29 yr old white male, 6 yrs in PWM/FA, CFA charter, 720 GMAT

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

1) Almost without exception you will start out as a 1st year associate coming out of business school

2) I would say that age is irrelevant regarding when you start but stage in life can be important (i.e. are you married, do you have kids, are you single, etc.) IBD, especially at the junior levels, can be extremely difficult when you have a family and sacrifices are definitely required to make it work.

3) This is one thing that people often confuse. While an analyst gig at a bank will set you up well for a buyside transition this is not necessarily the case for associate level and above. When you are hired as an associate you are expected to gradually move up the ranks within your organization or lateral to other banks to expedite the climb. Transferring to corporate level jobs is one exit opportunity that many associates take to the extent that they get burnt out.

If your goal is to work at a HF or on the buyside there are better routes to take than going post MBA banking > buyside but unfortunately this process is made more difficult without pre-MBA buyside experience.

If you want to do traditional asset management you should apply to those roles upon graduation and avoid banking. A CFA is valuable in traditional asset management but much less so in banking, PE, and HFs.

Thank you very much for the prompt, detailed reponse. I will def look to go into buy side directly from school. But I know I need to consider other options in case I cannot land there immediately. What other routes could serve as a transition to AM or HF in 2-3 years? Sell-side ER? corporate development?

 
11/25/15
jones2bc wrote:

Thank you very much for the prompt, detailed reponse. I will def look to go into buy side directly from school. But I know I need to consider other options in case I cannot land there immediately. What other routes could serve as a transition to AM or HF in 2-3 years? Sell-side ER? corporate development?

I would separate AM and HF for right now. Not saying there aren't similarities, but it will be quite difficult to land in a HF w/o IB, ER or credit experience right out of MBA (b/c of who you would be competing against).

I think your interests and skill set is best suited to work for a portfolio manager (family office, asset managers) or fund manager (i.e. Fidelity). I believe you'd have a better chance to move over to the HF space after that.

 
11/25/15
peinvestor2012 wrote:
jones2bc:

Thank you very much for the prompt, detailed reponse. I will def look to go into buy side directly from school. But I know I need to consider other options in case I cannot land there immediately. What other routes could serve as a transition to AM or HF in 2-3 years? Sell-side ER? corporate development?

I would separate AM and HF for right now. Not saying there aren't similarities, but it will be quite difficult to land in a HF w/o IB, ER or credit experience right out of MBA (b/c of who you would be competing against).

I think your interests and skill set is best suited to work for a portfolio manager (family office, asset managers) or fund manager (i.e. Fidelity). I believe you'd have a better chance to move over to the HF space after that.

Thanks for the input. The only reason I lump AM and HF together is because I am indifferent between the two. My goal is to become a long-term, fundamental/value oriented investor in the public markets. Not interested in deal-type investing that would likely require IBD or PE experience. (Just thought maybe IBD could work for this too) That said, I know I should cast a wide net and be open to other possibilities that could lead to my goal within a few years. So what else should I consider? Sell-side ER? Really not interested in any "manager of manager" type roles (I.e. FoF, family office) ... I do that kind of work now and MAN is it boring ....

 
11/25/15

.

Get busy living

 
11/25/15

This is reassuring to hear that around 30 is not "old" for associate (BTW this is nothing personal) but from my experience oldest associates where 32 and associate 3 not 1.

I am 28 and feel a bit stuck. Currently an analyst at PE but never did proper banking training (moved from advisory CF), and I don't feel like I am progressing much (not busy enough) - what would you recommend? Should I look for a busier fund, or maybe do 2 years in IBD? I think PE is a better long term career but given I am not that old (as you say), maybe getting a solid skills set now (and scarifying 2 yrs) to be able to move up with more confidence in the future is a better choice? I also dont want to mess up my CV by going PE - IBD - PE.

Thx in advance for help

 
11/25/15

Any of the "proper banking training" that you missed should be easily compensated for through PE work experience and/or self study whether that be modelling courses, books, or L1/L2 of the CFA. Jumping to banking after being in PE is stupid unless you think your goals or skillset is more aligned with a service / advisory / client interfacing / salesmanship role. Or consider b-school.

 
11/25/15

junkbondswap - cheers for that, i think you are right. It is not so much about numbers crunching but rather process management / deal experience. I have not done much of it at, as almost all the projects terminated at some point or I was pulled in to help out at some random stages (unlucky, was in a "pool" team). I follow the concepts (would probably answer a lot of technical qs well) hence was able to secure the job, but feel weak on a practical experience that one learns by getting a number of deals done or certain volume of models. Workload is rather light at the moment hence I am not sure what I should be doing. Only thought about banking because there is little downtime, on the other hand i don't want to do it long term. PE is better.

 
 
11/25/15

Good luck on getting into one off those schools. Definitely competitive but manageable. There are a ton of people with prior IB experience at my school (H/S/W/B/Kellogg/Columbia) and most of those people are aiming for either PE/VC or investment management positions. Most everyone gets something in the field they want too (based on what I've seen with my friends at least). So if you're aiming for PE/VC/HF you should be fine getting something if you have prior IB experience.

 
11/25/15

Every story ive read on here about PE has been the same tale: That PE post MBA is very very difficult if you dont have prior PE experience. Granted BB M&A exp probably sets you up very nicely so I dont think this applies to you, but what about other bankers not in M&A and BB?

 
11/25/15

Not sure why someone gave you monkey shit; I've seen the same thing at my bschool. You can get a PE job, but it's hugely important to get a summer internship in PE if you want to go full time and don't have previous experience. These internships are also extremely competitive, because there are generally few internship options.

HF / Corp dev is generally easier. Corp dev because they really like former bankers. HFs are super hard overall, but the playing field seems a lot more even for bankers vs people with PE experience. A lot more former bankers I know are going to HFs than PE.

 
11/25/15

I've seen a huge mix at Booth. Anecdotally, and this could be way off based on actual statistics, I've seen ex-investment bankers (and ex-PE guys) all over the map. Some paths that ex-bankers take:

1) Consultants at MBB. This is particularly good for the bankers who are still unsure what they want to do with their lives but want to maintain the maximum flexibility.
2) Entrepreneurship. Not surprisingly, a lot of ex-bankers want to try to leverage their skills and worth ethic from banking to build something themselves.
3) Small/Very Small PE Shops: Booth's PE Lab is the perfect way for bankers to get their foot in the door in PE. A ton of ex-bankers are working for small shops in Chicago during the school year and summer internships. A bunch of them translate into full time opportunities.
4) Back to Banking: This is typical of bankers who worked at relatively unknown boutiques and want to move to a bulge bracket. Doesn't really apply to the original poster.
5) Corporate Roles. Believe it or not, the # of folks moving to Corp Dev is low in my estimation. Probably because a lot of Corp Dev roles simply don't appear to exist. I may be wrong though, but this is the case amongst my friends.
6) Tech. Working for Google / Amazon / Zynga or some other giant tech shop is in right now. Usually it is some form of product management role. You'd be shocked at the number of Booth and H/S/W people in these roles.

There are others, but these are the ones that stick out in my mind.

CompBanker

 
11/25/15

Here are my 2 cents - I'm matriculating at H/S/W this fall, coming in with 2 yrs M&A BB experience and 2 yrs buy-side experience. I am aiming for PE, but definitely feel that it will be VERY competitive to get a summer internship at a MM PE firm (Mega Funds are extreme "reaches"). However, as @CompBanker said, I've seen plenty of smaller PE shops / investment management firms / family offices reach out to kids with my (and your) profile. So in summary, I'm not expecting to get into a MM PE firm, but probably a small, very focused fund where "fit" will probably be considered more valuable than having Blackstone on your resume....

 
11/25/15

It seems like you have the standard profile to get into a post-MBA position (2 years banking, 2 years PE, top MBA). Is it really that difficult for someone with your background to get into a post-MBA position at a decent MM shop (perhaps you were at a fairly small PE shop pre-MBA)?

What if you did 2 years banking at a BB, 2 years PE at a reputable upper MM/MF, and a top MBA, does that make getting a post-MBA position at a decent MM shop more feasible?

If anybody has any numbers or estimates on the success rate of post-MBA PE based on different backgrounds, that would be extremely insightful.

 
11/25/15

@ambition56 the reason why I think it'll be challenging to get MM PE is because I was at a lower-tier BB (Citi/BofA/DB), and while my buy-side experience has been fascinating (plenty of transaction experience and have 3 closed investments under my belt), it is at a small, start-up fund that probably no one in the U.S. has heard of (our focus is in EM). Take in the fact that there are probably ~100-150 bankers with buy-side experience targeting MM PE post MBA at my school, then you can see why it is still challenging even with my experience. Most MM PE / Megafunds ONLY hire Pre-MBA Associates that worked at their funds previously. Also, this is why bankers with NO buy-side experience at all have an even higher hurdle in terms of PE recruiting.

Ultimately, if you work/network hard enough you should be able to land a nice PE gig by going into a school like H/S/W; all I'm saying is that being a banker does not guarantee you this path. The competition is greater and fiercer than you would expect.

 
11/25/15

"Most MM PE / Megafunds ONLY hire Pre-MBA Associates that worked at their funds previously."

That's alarming. I was expecting that moving from pre-MBA MF to post-MBA upper MM/MM would be an option. How prevalent is this limit?

 
 
11/25/15

I would look into the 30-50 ranked MBA programs (low gpa and no-name firm). What is the rush? Why not develop your skills and build a great network at your current job?

 
 
11/25/15

Learn English first and foremost, love.

Second, a top 25 school may not be as advantageous as you are imagining.

Where, specifically, did you go?

 
11/25/15

Yeah, get a hold of the English language as a first step of action.

From what I've gathered on these forums, you'd better be networking your ass off because most firms like to hire young analysts/associates that are fresh out of business school, or have had very relevant experience related to finance and IB.

But please do yourself a favor and learn the English language inside and out before you proceed further.

Good luck in your future!

 
11/25/15

I'm extremely proficient with my English in both writing and speaking. I present and write all the time esp in my marketing job. And my sister is a IB VP. So hopefully, I can gain some valuable networks through her.

 
11/25/15

Dude, you're not that proficient. It's obvious. Imagine getting an e-mail from this guy. It would hit the bin pretty quickly.

 
11/25/15

How can you judge someone's writing by just reading these comments. You're an idiot. If you have nothing constructive to add, then shut the f up.

 
11/25/15

read your first post. It's shit.

And what are you talking about, Equity sales is about judging a guy's e-mail. Trust me, it's obvious. Also, as others say, you're a top 25 'in chemical engineering.'

That means about fuck all.

And, where is the MBA from? Answer those questions too (or give a ballpark - HYPSM etc) and you'll get a an even more clear answer.

 
11/25/15

No recruitment @ your campus?

 
11/25/15
SuperNova2007 wrote:

Any input would be very helpful.

Guess not...

SuperNova2007 wrote:

You're an idiot. If you have nothing constructive to add, then shut the f up.

 
11/25/15

SuperNova...

Shut F Up Motha f'er ...

HAHAHA. I can't F'in believe you F'in write that S!

LOL!

 
11/25/15

some real ashles here....

if you had kept quiet we might have thought you were clever...

be constructive or hold ur peace

go on... criticise my english too!

 
11/25/15

Nine years experience, 2 years of school, that makes you about 33, and you have no applicable experience, maybe that is why you got NADA through on campus recruiting. At this stage in your career and life on-campus recruiting was your only chance. If you couldn't hit it there time to move on to something else.

 
11/25/15

Or, why don't you do what you're good at: Engineering.

"Engineer me a River", that's a Timerlake song isn't it??? Hmmm...

Maybe IB in your next life.

 
11/25/15

OP, unless you
a) grow up
b) lose the attitude
and
c) gain a MUCH better grasp of the English language, you'll 100% never be successful as an equity analyst. Even if they didn't know you and your horrible attitude, who would want to read your analysis of a company in butchered English, much less take your advice on it??

Accomplish a, b and c first, then you'll at least be on the path in the right direction.

 
 
11/25/15

Take this with a grain of salt, but it's going to depend more on the quality of your MBA program than anything else i'd think.

so if banks recruit heavily at your school, that'll be the driver. At the lower tier schools, i'd think they'd skew towards ppl with more relavant experience.

what bschool are we talking. give a list of 3 if you'd like.

 
 
11/25/15

If you go to a good business school and are vehemently focused on IBD, you shouldn't have too much of a problem landing a summer regardless of what you did prior. I know people in b-school that have non-profit, marketing and military backgrounds that landed summers at a BB.

However, you will probably have a competitive advantage with a financial background - whether it be corp fin, valuation, etc. If BBs implement a minor freeze in the next few years, they will probably focus on someone with less "training" risk.

 
 
11/25/15

PE and VC are not realistic options for you. Exit opps really only have meaning at the analyst level. I suppose it's possible post-MBA, but the Associate level is just a completely different career track. Most exit opportunities will be laterals at other banks. Hopefully you can move up market if that's what you want. Otherwise, what you're really trying to do is make MD.

 
11/25/15

^^^Not true I have spoken to multiple banking associates (most of them M&A) who had no analyst experience (former military) who made the jump at the VP level to PE. Don't expect KKR or anything, but MM PE jobs are possible.

 
11/25/15

How about when you are an analyst and I am your associate you suck my big fat c*ck. I spent my first 5 years out of college in the military doing much crazier shit than you could ever hope to, and will have much better ability to read people and lead them then some prick who thinks they are hot shit because they can navigate their way around an excel sheet but not around a woman's g-spot.

 
11/25/15

F^ing A doggy!

Professional Bro,
J. Cans

 
 
11/25/15

chemicals

I'm making it up as I go along.

 
11/25/15

I think I would go with the chemicals position as well.

If you look at the bios of the folks at VC you typically will see far greater operating and entrepreneurship experience as their background vs pure IB.

Rest assured you have two great options, its just a matter of which one you think you will like the most. Good luck.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

 
 
11/25/15

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fdba Emory Blaine and BBA or otherwise trying to find the perfect pseudonym.

 
11/25/15

I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

 
11/25/15
in it 2 win it