Post-MBA IB Mega Thread
Hey everyone,
This site has a lot of information available for prospective analysts but lacks a lot of content for prospective associates. Since we are in MBA application season, I thought it may be helpful to create a mega thread that discusses investment banking as a post business school career.
Here are some existing sources that may be helpful:
General:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ask-me-anything-post-mba-ibd-asso…
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/investment-banking-2014-6-things-to…
Recruiting:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/90-conversion-rate-for-front-offi…
Compensation:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ibd-associate-compensati…
Exit Opportunities:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ib-exit-ops
Life in Post-MBA IB:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-ibd-associate-hours
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/post-mba-associate-life-consultin…
I will be attending business school starting fall of 2015 and had some questions that I thought the above posts didn't answer.
1) With no finance background, what can a prospective associate do before attending business school to prepare themselves for IB? How common are pre-MBA IB internships? Are there any introduction to finance books that would be helpful?
2) How many years of experience do you need in IB before you can land a good corporate development role? What are some other common exit opportunities?
3)Do M7 IB associates get placed in industry groups or M&A groups? How common is it for them to enter other product groups?
4) How much does the workload change as you progress from A1 to VP year over year?
Thanks!
Awesome post. Can't provide too much into associate-relevant info, sorry.
1) Pre-MBA internships are rare, but some banks do have diversity pre-mba internships. Rosenbaum & Pearl is a great intro to investment banking book. Honestly, your accounting / corporate finance course first semester -- along with interview guides that your school will have -- will give you what you need for interviews. In terms of performance during the summer, take advanced modeling courses as well as the excel course.
2) Not sure, but antedoctally I have heard 2 is the minimum. Other exit opps are the same as what analysts have, except that rather than HFs, PE, etc. coming to recruit you will need to be more proactive in building a network, working with a HH, etc.
3) Depends on bank, but both. Some banks have generalists programs for the first year (e.g. MS), others give group specific offers (e.g. CS), and others give firm wide offers and place you after (e.g. BAML). That said, it comes down to your preferences and who you met in the recruiting process, as well as where they need. So associates go to product and coverage groups depending on these factors. Same line of thought for Lev Fin, Capital Markets, etc.
4) Can't comment since I haven't started, but my understanding is that while it may get better over time it really depends on your group.
OP, see the post about business as usual at Moelis LA - mentions VPs are sometimes there at 4am alongside their analysts and Moelis himself stays till 1am. Clearly not going to be like that everywhere, but as @CountryUnderdog says it depends on your group - I work in IB in Australia and when we are busy we are flat-out (US IB hours and sometimes more), but when it's a bit easier associates I work with find time go surfing every day before work. Just depends on bank and group (and to an extent, location).
It obviously will vary and VPs have to pull all-nighters in some cases to get shit done. But, overall, the work life balance is a considerable step up from the associate / analyst level. The toughest part for VPs is trusting and leveraging the people beneath them. You move from doing all of the detailed work to execution and review, a tougher transition than people give it credit for.
But, VPs with good deal experience and an understanding of how to leverage resources shouldn't be working more than 70 hours/week at most shops (there are exceptions - particularly elite boutiques).
Hey CountryUnderdog, thanks for the insight. pm'ed you on this.
Our group is/was rough, and VPs don't stay past 7PM easily.
@"Bullet-Tooth Tony" , why are elite boutiques worse for hours? If that is the case, is BB better for a long-term career in IB?
1) Excel, corporate finance and accounting - youll be fine / not common unless you're a minority / that Rosenbaum book is allegedly good but i got about 3 pages in and bailed. The Scoop practitioners guide is better imo.
2) Had friends get them after a year. Depends on the state of the industry - e.g. ton of PE-backed energy companies currently, always looking for associate level BD guys. Might not be the case in the shipping industry (or whatever). Corp dev is the only exit I've seen in my 2.5 years out (other than doing banking somewhere else or doing something completely random)
3) If you are recruiting for NY, it's basically a match system. You pref, they pref. At that point you're hired - no one cares about your school unless guys in a certain group went there and prefer alums. And there is plenty of IB hiring at schools outside the mythical M7. This is a separate rant but, to me there are 2-3 schools at the top, maybe 2 more a notch down and then the rest of the top ~15-20. Outside of those top 3 i would go to a school that places well in your desired post-grad geography. I promise you people are going to think you're half-retarded if you are interviewing for a job in California and tell them you chose Columbia over UCLA because it was a few notches higher on US news. /end rant
4) Going to be highly group dependent (number of and personality of MDs, VPs, etc) but in general I would say associate is pretty rough and VP gets a lot better. As an Ass, You get faster and more efficient but you also get correspondingly more work. You'll also start getting staffed with first year analysts as you progress which is pretty painful if you've been used to 2nd yrs in your early Ass years. In my experience the jump to VP is considerable step upward, in general. You can usually get away with outlining the book and answering questions rather than doing it yourself. And, in theory, 2 people checked the book before you saw it, you are not expected to be there late in most cases.Trade off is you may be the VP on 4 books at once (split among 2 or 3 associates). You need to know the shit cold but you weren't in the weeds like the junior staff. You'll travel more which is a grind when you have to come home and catch up on the all the shit to review (v. when you can work on it all day). Like every level, more latitude but more responsibility. And caveat on all of that is this can be HIGHLY variable depending on personalities of the senior guys.
Thanks for pulling this together, I managed to land a full-time job as a BB associate after not recruiting for summer IB, so I'm looking to soak up as much as I can.
Top 15 MBA to IB (Originally Posted: 09/17/2017)
We all hear about MBA business schools">M7, even top 10 MBA programs. But how hard will it be to break into IB with a top 15 MBA? I'm not BB or bust, but would like to break into PE or VC.
Are you asking about how to break into IB or PE/VC? I think going straight into PE/VC is a stretch but will depend heavily on your background.
I recently broke into IB from a top-20 ish level MBA program. The lower ranked schools won't have as strong OCR and formal processes to break into IB like the MBA business schools">M7, so it will really come down to how hard you are willing to network on your own. It will also help if the school has a lot of alumni that are in the field (regardless if they are undergrad/grad alumni).
If you go in on a mission from day 1, it is definitely possible. You will also need a good answer to the question "If you knew you wanted to get into IB, then why didn't you just go to a target MBA program?". No textbook answer to this question. Sometimes they are just being dicks and sometimes they really just want to understand your decision making. I had my reasons, but also found that the most well received rationale was $.
Yes, breaking into IB.
If you have good experience pre-MBA and prepare well, you won't have any trouble breaking into BB banking from a Top 15 school (Ross, Fuqua, Stern, Anderson, etc)
Anderson isn’t T15
Cornell MBA for getting into IB? (Originally Posted: 05/25/2014)
I'm a software engineer looking to get into finance. How is the Cornell MBA program if I want to break into investment banking as an associate? What kind of banks do most Cornell graduates end up at?
Check with career services at Cornell.
I've seen a lot of Johnson guys on the street in terms of IB. I haven't really seen them on buyside though.
I know the BB recruit quite a few kids from Johnson every year. Haven't seen a strong presence among the EB/MM though.
Johnson does great with IB, especially recently with the MBA business schools">M7 losing interest in the industry. I think 20%+ get a IB job from Johnson, but def check the employment report.
Investment Banking Post-MBA (Originally Posted: 06/15/2011)
After graduating from a (top 10) business school, I’ve been working in management consulting for almost a year… and realize that I absolutely made the wrong career decision. I was in the military before b-school, and somehow got it in my head that I was more interested in strategy then hard numbers. This was a poor choice, especially since I had some finance experience and enjoyed it.
Is there any way to position myself to enter a bb, or even mid-tier, IB associate training program? I’d be open to either S&T or banking, but am worried I missed the boat since I no longer have access to the on-campus recruiting pipeline.
Thanks, in advance, for any advice.
So you graduated in 2010? What tier consulting firm do you work for? if it is MBB, then I think, you are still in decent shape. If not, then you might come off as just leaving because you didnt get one of those.
Either way, I think that this is doable, if you can spin the "some finance experience" and consulting experience hard into banking skills.
I think you have a better chance in banking then S&T - S&T is pretty difficult, even for those still in school.
Why don't you reach out to classmates and alumni a few years older? If your still a fresh mba, then I'm sure there are some VP's/MD's who are not too far removed to help out a fellow schoolmate.
This will have to be something that you have to stay on top of though, and it might take some time. If you think about it, I'm sure there are current bankers at your level thinking the same thing you are. So, if they jump during the year, then off-cycle spots are your best bet since you won't be competing with current students.
I think you have options. I don't think you will have much luck getting into a training program simply because the banks are quite rigid about filling those programs from schools in my experience.
My first thought here is that each bank will be different so the first step will be networking your way into each bank to get some sense of how each bank would handle working you into the system. Use your school networks to get contacts in the banks, reach out and introduce yourself and ask for advice on how to navigate such a change at each firm. After you start that process, if it is going to work, then you will start to see the path at each firm become a bit more clear.
Hope that helps.
It's going to be hard to believe you are serious about IB. If you don't have some "wow" factor then it will be very difficult. Can you at least kick butt on the technical questions in an IB interview?
Your lack of caring as to whether you do S&T or IB will undoubtedly come off as you only caring about BB type compensation. Am i right?
Good- question, and the post was poorly phrased on my part.
I'd much prefer IB. The type of analysis entailed is one I identify with, and I'm much more transaction oriented as oppose to having the necessary mentality for the trading floor. I just know how hard the transition may be.
I don't have any more skills relating to the technical questions than would the typical MBA from a finance-oriented school. Are there any course you can recommend as a refresher?
Non-Target MBA -> IB? (Originally Posted: 02/18/2015)
I know that people will throw shit at me for getting MBA at a non-target, but I'll try to explain myself.
Brief background: - International student (Eastern European country) - Undergrad in Finance at a non-target liberal arts school, graduated last May - Varsity athlete on a full ride - 3.7 GPA - Junior internship at a small consulting firm (mostly research, marketing) - Had a season-ending injury my senior year - got medical red shirt - Didn't really know what to do with my life until my senior year. Thought about becoming a professional athlete, but it didn't really go as planned with all the injuries I had. I also had some family issues they didn't really let me focus on my career path. Anyway, I learned about IB from one of my professors and decided to give it a shot.
Did an unpaid internship at a no-name boutique Investment Bank after graduation. The shop specializes primarily in $10-50M private placements of debt and equity (don't do much on m&a side). My work involved all the typical IB analyst aspects: valuations, powerpoint pitch books, writing executive summaries/teasers, a lot of research etc. It was definitely a worthwhile experience given my situation.
Decided to stay in school and do my MBA for the following reasons: - Really wanted to play sports for another year - Better chances at H1B lottery with a masters degree (fall under a different cap, internationals will understand me) - Can't afford to pay for my Masters
I should be done with my degree in May 2016. So here is where I am right now as I'll try to weigh the positives and negatives.
"+": - The firm I interned at this summer would like to have me back this summer and they will actually pay me this time. - We also discussed the possibility of my full-time employment after graduation. They previously sponsored H1B visas and there is a good chance they would hire me in the future. - Got a GA position for the next year, so I don't have to worry about paying for school. - I was networking hardcore in April-May 2014 to land an internship, so I managed to build some great relationships during that period and also throughout the summer. - About to get started with BIWS to improve my modeling/ Excel skills.
"-": - MBA from a no-name school doesn't look good on a resume. - Same with the internship or having a first job at a no-name IB boutique. - Need to find a company that would sponsor my Visa.
What would you guys advice me to do? Please feel free to ask me more questions.
I'm not an "IB or bust" type of guy. I'm also looking at the opportunities in consulting, investment management, corp finance etc. While I'd like to stay in America for a few years, I'm totally open to move to Europe or Middle East, Hong Kong etc.
Should I... 1) Study for CFA? I know that's not what you normally need for IB, but it could work in my situation. 2) Stick with my boutique firm gig and give up on everything else for now? Once I have my H1B, things will look a little better for me. 3) Get back to networking like ninja? Screw no-name boutique... 4) Look at opportunities overseas?
I'm sure there are people on this forum, who were once in a similar situation and managed to pull through. I would appreciate any feedback I can get.
Anybody?
2 sounds like the obvious choice to me. Your MBA program is less important if you are actually gaining good experience. You are not on a path to BB/EB, but you can still make a good career out of boutique and MM banking.
Thanks man.
What are the typical exit opportunities after a few years at a non-elite boutique bank?
Is there a way to continue pursuing education after getting MBA? (other than PHD). I would like to have a name-brand school on my resume at some point in my career.
When it comes to CFA, do you find it useful at all in my situation? I heard that banks in Europe/Asia recognize CFA and place more weight on it compared to the ones in U.S. Here in U.S., it seems that pursuing CFA makes more sense for those looking to work in AM\/ER. Other than that, what would be the right way to take advantage of my free time while at school?
Appreciate your advice!
Post-MBA IBD Associate Group Selection (Originally Posted: 12/31/2010)
Questions to all - particularly career switchers who went pre-MBA profession to post-MBA IBD Associate...
1)How does group selection work? Are you basically forced into working in the industry group that you have experience in pre-MBA? For example, if you worked in the financial services industry, are you only going to be able to get a spot in a FIG group? If you worked at Boeing, are you going to be in the A&D group?
Likewise, if you did banking pre-MBA at a lesser known bank and want to come back at a BB - do you go back to the same industry group?
2) When picking a group (IBD post-MBA associate) - is it worth it to go for groups that have really good exit opps AS ANALYSTS ( like M&A/Lev Fin/etc.), or should you pick a group where you like the people better, etc. I have heard that comp and hours vary significantly if you choose an industry group vs. a product group - is this true?
Along the same lines - what should be the criteria for picking a group? I know that at the analyst level you are looking for great deal flow due to exit opps, but at the associate level, I would imagine that if you are trying to make banking a career, then you should be looking at other things. -Comp of group -Hours of group -Do lots of people leave the group? -What else am I missing?
Thanks in advance.
Great questions that I'm very interested in as well.
A lot will vary on where you are and policy of the firm. Some banks have their regional offices recruit to hire only for that office, whereas others (barcap por ejemplo) might recruit for their regional office but technically you are hired into the associate pool and could go to snot her group if you so chose (or so they say).
You're definitely not forced somewhere based on experience but in some instances it might be highly desirable (e.g oil and gas, or chemicals helps to know some of the technical detail).
I think from the candidates perspective, the likability of the people is number 1 consideration, all else (relatively) equal,
At the two firms I've worked at (a BB and a top boutique) the post MBA associates tended to have been in a group-related industry before, but this was not a rule, it just might give you some advantage. I can say from experience when you are valuing an electrical industrial firm, it helps to have an an engineer on your team.
afroman23
Bump--how does group selection work for the different BBs, especially GS?
1) Ideally yes but I've seen quite a few also start out in new industries (although primarily was driven by headcount issues in the teams they chose). Your experience is obviously one of the things you bring to the table so really a waste to place someone who worked at e.g. Boeing with Healthcare. However, if you really are not interested in the sector you worked in pre-MBA, don't think too difficult to switch to something that interests you with a bit of networking in the firm before you get placed. You typically get to pick preferences, however, this should not be a surprise to the bank, so do some networking before if you want to pick something they wouldn't expect
2) Would definitely pick a strong team (i.e. that has lots of deal flow and creds). Unless you've worked with a certain product in the past, most likely you will get placed in an industry team. MBA most useful there as you can use all the general strategy/marketing/operations knowledge much more (e.g. equity story/positioning/industry trends/M&A fit/etc.)
3) Still want to be in a strong team as an Associate with good deal flow and creds as you will get a better experience, better comp, higher likelihood of promotion, etc. It's often hard to know how dysfunctional a group is prior to joining or being in the bank - people you speak with won't put down their own team even if there are issues (unless there are serious problems and they are also leaving)
Top 20 MBA to IB? (Originally Posted: 06/22/2016)
Does getting into a top 20 MBA program help significantly in getting an investment banking job?
No, it is better to get into a worst 20 MBA.
Not to be rude but this is a really dumb question. you should strive to get into the best MBA program you can imo, the better the program the more opportunities you will have............
Meant to go towards the direction of whether getting an MBA significantly increases your chance of getting into IB. Not comparing MBA schools. I am striving to get into the best MBA program.
What he said.
It's very doable from any top 20 program (assuming strong GPA + GMAT). Where the program falls within that spectrum just determines who much you have to hustle, and GS/JPM might be hard from the lower end of the spectrum.
If you are in a top 10-15 MBA school, its not that difficult if you can handle technicals, speak fluent English and are not socially awkward, especially since not many people recruit for banking these days. Of course, market conditions this year will determine class sizes for next year but most firms tend to stay within a reasonable band. Top 15-20 is still good though you'll have a better shot at regional and MM firms than top BBs/EBs
top 15-20 is kind of a variable. MBA business schools">M7, Fuqua, Haas, Stern, Yale SOM, Ross, Darden and alike are usually captured in most BB/MBB recruiting, because a MBA business schools">M7 Admit can be easily taken by the other members of above for a full scholarship ride.
but once it gets to 15-20 for the Tepper Kelley and these "regional bests", then the recruiting start to vary a lot.
More MBAs to apply for IB? (Originally Posted: 12/13/2016)
hi all. I'm new to the forum.
Recently I have been luckily admitted to Johnson with some $.
I'm pretty sure I will do IB recruiting. I would like to do IB in NYC and okay with SE.
I have few R2/R3 MBA applications ongoing...
Now with Cornell offer, I wonder what R2/R3 applications worth to submit? (I have Yale/NYU/Tuck/Kellogg/Fuqua in mind; got rejected by Booth R1 with interview)
Brief background on my stats: 3.5 from top public in STEM/mid700 GMAT/working in global high-tech.
At pretty much all the combined IBD events at the top banks, the most represented schools are always Wharton, Columbia, and Booth (IME). So if you haven't applied for the first two, I would try those.
Also, I want to caution one thing. MBA recruiting for Banking is HIGHLY relationship based. So when recruiting for NYC people without solid English skills struggle, A LOT, even if they have great backgrounds. I would consider this when you are thinking about what to recruit. This point is conjecture based on your writing in your post, so I may off base, but it's worth considering.
Thanks for the list of schools. I'm considering Wharton but not Columbia. Visited there few times but not sure it's place where I want to spend 2 yrs.
And good catch! :) English is not my 1st language. Any advice on improving these relevant skillsets?
MBA business schools">M7 mostly.
Also look at top 20 schools located in the city you want to live in. As to the previous poster's point about banking being relationship based, you will have a MASSIVE leg up if you have the ability to run out and meet someone over your lunch break.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but I see a lot of top 20 b-schools send more ppl to IB than some M7s. Sure, more MBA business schools">M7 ppl might have passion in sth else. I wonder how the IB recruiting landscape differs from solid top20 for IB vs M7?
Those saying MBA business schools">M7 for banking are very off the mark. Yes, all 7 of those schools will get you into banking but in reality, on Wharton, Booth and Columbia really place a lot of people in banks, particularly in New York. Stanford will place into VC/PE or West Coast banking and Harvard will place more in PE and a few people in IB--but most people there don't want to go into banking. MIT is more of a quant finance school and Kellogg isn't a great finance school at all--I mean it's fine and will teach you what you want to know, but people go there to do consulting or brand management.
Stern, Darden, Fuqua, Ross and Kennan-Flagler all easily have larger alumni networks in IBD than HBS, Stanford GSB, MIT or Kellogg--none of which are a core school at my BB bank. Yes you can get into IBD from these very good schools, but it will be through off campus networking at many places. Again, it's not an issue of ability but moreso that the students that go to Stanford, HBS, MIT and Kellogg tend to want to go into other fields, so banks also don't dedicate resources to targeting these schools.
As another poster mentioned, there are some schools that are very good for certain regions--Haas if you want SF, Rice and Texas for Houston, Emory for Atlanta, which should also be a consideration.
Get the employment report for each school you're interested in and see what banks recruit on campus there. In B-school, if you are a core school, you'll be competing against other students for dedicated spots--so being far from NY for networking isn't an issue at all. It only becomes an issue if you have to network on your own from a non-core school. For my business school, banks came down to campus multiple times a year and I made networking calls. I came to NY to meet people once before interviews.
Thanks Dat Guy for your input.
What you state here does aligns with what I have found so far.
It seems that you are currently working in BB post-MBA..
Mind if you tell us which MBA your attended? If you do not want to disclose specific name, is it MBA business schools">M7, top15, etc?
I'm quite certain that I would like to pursue NYC IB.
And from my research, Cornell has been placing quite well. In fact, quite surprisingly successful for past few years.
With this particular post-mba plan in mind, I wonder if you have any other school in mind that places well (or so-called core schools). I'm considering applying to few schools R2.
Thanks in advance.
I-banking from MBA w/ unique background? (Originally Posted: 09/17/2009)
I want to get people's opinions on entering an MBA program without analyst experience, straight from undergrad (well, one year after)?
Obviously people generally suggest gaining experience before entering an MBA program but given the current conditions in the job market would I really be putting myself at a disadvantage or am I creating lemonade from lemons?
I spent 4 years in the military as an Intelligence analyst, a semester with a commercial real estate brokerage, 2 semesters with a small, lower-middle market focused PE firm and 2 semesters with a small, late-stage focused VC firm.
I feel I have decent job/internship experience (relatively) but received a BS in Finance from a total non-target private school which is well regarded in the area but virtually unknown outside the state. My intent would be to soak up some time while the market turns for the good (hopefully), and re-brand myself with a target name on my resume. I'm fairly confident I could gain acceptance to a top program but originally intended to hold off on B school until later in my career.
Opinions and/or suggestions?
Regards
Were you in the military doing intelligence work right out of high school? I'm a little confused about your timeline since you only have 1 year of post-college work experience.
If that's the case, I'm not sure I would be so confident about gaining admission to a top program. The top MBA programs like the leadership expeience that some military applicants have, but those programs are not flooded with veterans.
If you could gain admission to a strong program, you should go. I'd suggest you try to get some counsel from some admissions folks as to your profile and timing. Here's a roadmap you might want to take a look at How to Build Relationships with MBA Admissions Officers - http://bit.ly/13WX1J
Gotta Mentor www.GottaMentor.com Connect to the Advice & People You Need to Achieve Your Career Goals
After a top 20 MBA how easy is it to get into a BB or MM for I Banking if you have not done the analyst stint but have a few years in related work ( read research & valuations, commercial banking etc .. )
And what about switching continents as well?
It is not hard to get into IB from a top 10/15 mba program, with or without applicable experience. You are not really competing with people who have IB experience, because they are looking for bigger and better things (PE, etc). Plenty of military guys get IB jobs out of an MBA without biz exp. Your background is not that uncommon.
I know an ex army officer (didn’t even finish his commitment; he chaptered out) who got an IB job coming out of a school ranked around 30. If you get into a top 10 school you will be fine.
Sorry for any confusion, but yeah, I entered the military straight from high school, immediately went to college following my 4 year military commitment and graduated this past spring. So truthfully, the 1 year full time work comment isn't exactly accurate...my implication was that i wouldn't be applying directly from an undergrad program. as far as work is concerned, I worked full-time my first year in school, and part-time ever since (at some points more than 1 job), not including my internships (which always overlapped with my job(s)).
I certainly enjoyed my military stint and got to experience things many people will never have the opportunity to, but I have always felt I am a little behind given I just graduated at the age of 26, competing with 22 years old (for the most part), so maybe an MBA program will allow me to gain back a year or two.
I appreciate the advice you guys have given and would welcome any addition opinions anyone might have.
Regards
I did military before college as well. It is kind of rare - going from enlisted man to top MBA. It's certainly doable. I don't know if your ready yet, career wise. I've done a good deal of research on this topic. PM me if you want to chat.
Very unusual background --> MBA --> IB? (Originally Posted: 04/20/2017)
I have been fortunate enough to get into a couple of great MBA programs, will likely head to LBS in August and am currently exploring different career options. I know that there are tons of similar questions, but I am just curious to learn about career opportunities in IB for people with no prior business experience whatsoever (I currently work as a diplomat). Any advice would be very much appreciated.
I know someone who was an elementary school teacher pre-MBA, went to a mediocre MBA program and is now a VP at a good MM bank after 3 years as an associate.
Just think of ways to tie your previous experience to Finance while developing your story. Anything is possible, although not always easy.
You can read almost anything and there's a pattern of people moving from political offices to the business world.
MBA internships and Post MBA I-banking job (Originally Posted: 04/27/2016)
Hi guys, I haven't been on this site for a few years.
After working in the family business (consumer product / RE) for 3 years, while I have done great financially, I felt it is not something I want to do for the rest of my life. I am starting my Full Time MBA program this coming summer at Columbia Business School.
I want to pursue a post MBA career in M&A. I had some Finance internships in college, but no full time working experience. It's going to be tough to break in as career switcher with no prior experience and M&A activities seems to be slowing down right now.
Therefore, I want to prepare early for the recruiting season, which starts probably two weeks after Business School starts. As a starter, I am going through the course from Break Into Wall Street to refresh my valuation and modeling skills everyday after work and reading "The Practitioner's guide to Investment banking, M&A and corporate finance" from ScoopBooks.
I am looking for any advice from you guys who have gone through those MBA recruiting as a career switcher.
Many thanks!
Columbia has good OCR. Work on developing your story for why IB and network. Figure this out over the summer and get your resume done before the start of school. Create a list of targets and start learning about them.
If you can, try to network your way into and complete a pre-MBA internship to get some relevant experience.
Probably want to start practicing your technicals in addition to the above as well.
The conversion rate is ~85-90% for BB recruiting from the MBA business schools">M7 business schools (and most of the failures are international students). Don't sweat it. My friend got a C in finance 1 (bottom 5% of class) at Kellogg, and got offers at BAML, Citi, Deutsche, and two others I forget.
Hey guys. I was wondering about group placement post-MBA. If there is little to no banking experience, do you get placed in less favorable groups or can you request specific groups?
Thanks.
Less than 5% of people who do post-MBA IB have any banking experience. I can't think of one person who did this. Most are from completely outside of finance.
Networking, technical skill/interview prep, develop story/reason for transition... Great advice, guys. Thanks a ton.
Any opinion on using WSO mentor (career coaching) service?
maybe its a bit different in the US, but in my London Summer Associate program most have a finance background. about a third even M&A.
Questions about post-MBA level IBD (Originally Posted: 06/18/2013)
Hey all,
I will be matriculating at NYU for MBA this fall and am considering IBD since the recruiting process seems fairly reliable. I have a few questions about IBD at this level (some of these are dupes from my post "IBD pay ... really that great?" that I would like more color on)
About me: 29 yr old white male, 6 yrs in PWM/FA, CFA charter, 720 GMAT
Thanks in advance for any thoughts
Can you build a 3-statement from scratch? Ever created pitchbooks? u need gud technical base if u want to move up 2 sales-role.
You'll def be entering as 1st yr assoc.
ans to otter questions: 2. u r fine plenty of assoc older than u 3. yes, will b a bit harder and u will need to go thru standard long proces headhunters etc
CFA charter def helps
I'm pretty sure CFA charter isn't a huge asset for IBD.
It isn't, but it sure as shit isn't going to hurt him in a recruiting process. The content is only semi-relevant, but the dedication says something.
Fair enough
1) Almost without exception you will start out as a 1st year associate coming out of business school 2) I would say that age is irrelevant regarding when you start but stage in life can be important (i.e. are you married, do you have kids, are you single, etc.) IBD, especially at the junior levels, can be extremely difficult when you have a family and sacrifices are definitely required to make it work.
3) This is one thing that people often confuse. While an analyst gig at a bank will set you up well for a buyside transition this is not necessarily the case for associate level and above. When you are hired as an associate you are expected to gradually move up the ranks within your organization or lateral to other banks to expedite the climb. Transferring to corporate level jobs is one exit opportunity that many associates take to the extent that they get burnt out.
If your goal is to work at a HF or on the buyside there are better routes to take than going post MBA banking > buyside but unfortunately this process is made more difficult without pre-MBA buyside experience.
If you want to do traditional asset management you should apply to those roles upon graduation and avoid banking. A CFA is valuable in traditional asset management but much less so in banking, PE, and HFs.
Thank you very much for the prompt, detailed reponse. I will def look to go into buy side directly from school. But I know I need to consider other options in case I cannot land there immediately. What other routes could serve as a transition to AM or HF in 2-3 years? Sell-side ER? corporate development?
I would separate AM and HF for right now. Not saying there aren't similarities, but it will be quite difficult to land in a HF w/o IB, ER or credit experience right out of MBA (b/c of who you would be competing against).
I think your interests and skill set is best suited to work for a portfolio manager (family office, asset managers) or fund manager (i.e. Fidelity). I believe you'd have a better chance to move over to the HF space after that.
Thanks for the input. The only reason I lump AM and HF together is because I am indifferent between the two. My goal is to become a long-term, fundamental/value oriented investor in the public markets. Not interested in deal-type investing that would likely require IBD or PE experience. (Just thought maybe IBD could work for this too) That said, I know I should cast a wide net and be open to other possibilities that could lead to my goal within a few years. So what else should I consider? Sell-side ER? Really not interested in any "manager of manager" type roles (I.e. FoF, family office) ... I do that kind of work now and MAN is it boring ....
.
This is reassuring to hear that around 30 is not "old" for associate (BTW this is nothing personal) but from my experience oldest associates where 32 and associate 3 not 1.
I am 28 and feel a bit stuck. Currently an analyst at PE but never did proper banking training (moved from advisory CF), and I don't feel like I am progressing much (not busy enough) - what would you recommend? Should I look for a busier fund, or maybe do 2 years in IBD? I think PE is a better long term career but given I am not that old (as you say), maybe getting a solid skills set now (and scarifying 2 yrs) to be able to move up with more confidence in the future is a better choice? I also dont want to mess up my CV by going PE - IBD - PE.
Thx in advance for help
Any of the "proper banking training" that you missed should be easily compensated for through PE work experience and/or self study whether that be modelling courses, books, or L1/L2 of the CFA. Jumping to banking after being in PE is stupid unless you think your goals or skillset is more aligned with a service / advisory / client interfacing / salesmanship role. Or consider b-school.
junkbondswap - cheers for that, i think you are right. It is not so much about numbers crunching but rather process management / deal experience. I have not done much of it at, as almost all the projects terminated at some point or I was pulled in to help out at some random stages (unlucky, was in a "pool" team). I follow the concepts (would probably answer a lot of technical qs well) hence was able to secure the job, but feel weak on a practical experience that one learns by getting a number of deals done or certain volume of models. Workload is rather light at the moment hence I am not sure what I should be doing. Only thought about banking because there is little downtime, on the other hand i don't want to do it long term. PE is better.
Pre-MBA experience for IB? (Originally Posted: 05/18/2014)
Hi WSO,
I've been doing a lot of thinking and think the best way to get to where I want to be is to go join and investment bank, and have that experience on my resume. I graduated from a non-target LAC (albeit a very good academic school) about 1 year ago today. If i want to get an mba (10-20 rank), when should I apply. I currently work for a BB pwm shop. I have passed lv 1 CFA, 3.2 gpa, no-gmat score yet, good ec's, most likely can get a good recommendation. If i want to join an IB can I apply after 2 years of work experience (so I will have 3 by the time I actually enter school).
How many years is ideal for work experience before applying to b-school, specifically if you want an ib job. I ask this because I know what I feel as if I don't want to wait (4 more years) until i get it.
I would look into the 30-50 ranked MBA programs (low gpa and no-name firm). What is the rush? Why not develop your skills and build a great network at your current job?
New MBA Looking for IB opps (Originally Posted: 04/10/2007)
I'm a new mba graduate with finance emphasis. Undergrad from top 25 school in chemical engineering. Has 9 years of sales, marketing, engineering exp from top oil companies. Now, I want to change my career and go into IB. I would say my chances to break in is higer in equity analyst maybe in oil. I don't mind going in other IB fields as long as I'm in. What do you guys think? Any input would be very helpful.
Learn English first and foremost, love.
Second, a top 25 school may not be as advantageous as you are imagining.
Where, specifically, did you go?
Yeah, get a hold of the English language as a first step of action.
From what I've gathered on these forums, you'd better be networking your ass off because most firms like to hire young analysts/associates that are fresh out of business school, or have had very relevant experience related to finance and IB.
But please do yourself a favor and learn the English language inside and out before you proceed further.
Good luck in your future!
I'm extremely proficient with my English in both writing and speaking. I present and write all the time esp in my marketing job. And my sister is a IB VP. So hopefully, I can gain some valuable networks through her.
Dude, you're not that proficient. It's obvious. Imagine getting an e-mail from this guy. It would hit the bin pretty quickly.
How can you judge someone's writing by just reading these comments. You're an idiot. If you have nothing constructive to add, then shut the f up.
read your first post. It's shit.
And what are you talking about, Equity sales is about judging a guy's e-mail. Trust me, it's obvious. Also, as others say, you're a top 25 'in chemical engineering.'
That means about fuck all.
And, where is the MBA from? Answer those questions too (or give a ballpark - HYPSM etc) and you'll get a an even more clear answer.
No recruitment @ your campus?
Guess not...
SuperNova...
Shut F Up Motha f'er ...
HAHAHA. I can't F'in believe you F'in write that S!
LOL!
some real ashles here....
if you had kept quiet we might have thought you were clever...
be constructive or hold ur peace
go on... criticise my english too!
Nine years experience, 2 years of school, that makes you about 33, and you have no applicable experience, maybe that is why you got NADA through on campus recruiting. At this stage in your career and life on-campus recruiting was your only chance. If you couldn't hit it there time to move on to something else.
Or, why don't you do what you're good at: Engineering.
"Engineer me a River", that's a Timerlake song isn't it??? Hmmm...
Maybe IB in your next life.
OP, unless you a) grow up b) lose the attitude and c) gain a MUCH better grasp of the English language, you'll 100% never be successful as an equity analyst. Even if they didn't know you and your horrible attitude, who would want to read your analysis of a company in butchered English, much less take your advice on it??
Accomplish a, b and c first, then you'll at least be on the path in the right direction.
Post MBA Ibanking (Originally Posted: 04/29/2007)
How difficult is it to transition into Ibanking Post MBA if you do not have a prior background in IB. I know this is a bit broad and vague assuming you go to a GOOD (Top 25) but not GREAT (H/S/W) school.
How is experience that is still somewhat relevant such as real estate investment analyssi/Big 4 Financial Advisory experience perceived on Wall St?
Thanks.
Take this with a grain of salt, but it's going to depend more on the quality of your MBA program than anything else i'd think.
so if banks recruit heavily at your school, that'll be the driver. At the lower tier schools, i'd think they'd skew towards ppl with more relavant experience.
what bschool are we talking. give a list of 3 if you'd like.
Undergrad -> Job -> MBA -> IBD (Originally Posted: 04/02/2008)
I'm in a difficult position. I've interviewed with maybe 10-15 banks and always ended up either "next in line" for an analyst job resulting in no offer, or just plain no offer. I've decided to open up my options for a job after undergrad and was wondering how related to IB does it need to be in order to get an MBA then go for an Associate position? Can I do anything I want? Would a position in corporate tax be ok? Should I try to find something as a financial analyst?
Thanks for your responses!
If you go to a good business school and are vehemently focused on IBD, you shouldn't have too much of a problem landing a summer regardless of what you did prior. I know people in b-school that have non-profit, marketing and military backgrounds that landed summers at a BB.
However, you will probably have a competitive advantage with a financial background - whether it be corp fin, valuation, etc. If BBs implement a minor freeze in the next few years, they will probably focus on someone with less "training" risk.
Post MBA IB Associate - a few questions (Originally Posted: 04/29/2010)
Graduating from top tier MBA program next month and will be joining a strong MM shop (sorry to be vague...) later this summer as an Associate - no prior banking experience, but strong financial background. I know there are some random threads addressing some of these questions, but wanted to put a new one out there for all of the newbie IB Associates coming out of b-school next month. Hoping to get some good feedback from WSO gurus:
What type of hours (on average) should we expect as an associate? (I know this has been discussed ad naseum, and of course dependent upon deal flow - but just looking for a ballpark expectation - as everyone seems to have a different answer on this) And, do the hours get significantly better in Year 2 or Year 3? I'm fully prepared to get crushed, just throwing the question out there.
Any suggestions on specific areas to prep this summer before starting (no need to suggest vacationing)? Brush up on PPT / modeling? Start prepping for Series 7/63? Will training be enough to get us up to speed?
Exit opportunities - before everyone jumps all over me about thinking about exits before starting - c'mon - we all think about exit ops in anything we do. That being said, is PE or VC a realistic exit op? And if so, when is the sweet spot for looking for those ops? After 2nd year? Otherwise, should my goal be to make VP first and then think about trying to transition?
Any other suggestions for new IB Associates would be appreciated! Thanks guys.
PE and VC are not realistic options for you. Exit opps really only have meaning at the analyst level. I suppose it's possible post-MBA, but the Associate level is just a completely different career track. Most exit opportunities will be laterals at other banks. Hopefully you can move up market if that's what you want. Otherwise, what you're really trying to do is make MD.
^^^Not true I have spoken to multiple banking associates (most of them M&A) who had no analyst experience (former military) who made the jump at the VP level to PE. Don't expect KKR or anything, but MM PE jobs are possible.
How about when you are an analyst and I am your associate you suck my big fat c*ck. I spent my first 5 years out of college in the military doing much crazier shit than you could ever hope to, and will have much better ability to read people and lead them then some prick who thinks they are hot shit because they can navigate their way around an excel sheet but not around a woman's g-spot.
F^ing A doggy!
Post MBA Investment Banking Options? (Originally Posted: 06/26/2010)
If you had the following options, what would you do?
Work as a summer associate in a top European firm in their IBD GIG team (London) (needed to emphasise the European, since if it was GS/MS/Laz, these options really wouldn't present themselves)
Work with the world's top chemicals company in their corporate strategy and M&A team (Switzerland) ($55bn market cap, as global as they come, highly acquisitive with c.3 transactions a year)
Both options have the possibility of obtaining a full-time position at the end. With the chem firm, it's going into their global leadership programme and obviously with the IB firm, it's in their associate programme.
Background: MBA from a top-3 European school, previous background in equities research.
My concern is that I've heard from others that European banks don't really value MBA degrees as much as the US banks do (in terms of career progression etc..) - Direct-to-Associate promos are way more common here than in the US.
Ultimately, I want to go into VC (not PE!)
Anyways...would appreciate some thoughts!
chemicals
I think I would go with the chemicals position as well.
If you look at the bios of the folks at VC you typically will see far greater operating and entrepreneurship experience as their background vs pure IB.
Rest assured you have two great options, its just a matter of which one you think you will like the most. Good luck.
Regards
Can people do IB after getting an MBA? (Originally Posted: 06/02/2011)
Is this something you want to be doing after you graduate from Bschool. Or is this mainly something undergraduates do?
Seriously? The short answer is yes. Read Monkey Business, it discusses the process at the MBA level.
IMPOSSIBLE
lol
Yes thats a very common step, but make sure you end up at a school where they recruit from. Wouldn't be quite as easy from lesser ranked schools.
+1. And do read Monkey Business, it basically tells how the entire process works within the first few chapters.
If you have to ask...
Post-MBA full time recruiting in IB without internship in IB (Originally Posted: 07/23/2015)
Good morning all.
I'm a soon-to-be 2nd year MBA student at a top 10 program, and I'm wrapping up my consulting internship for the summer. For many, mostly personal, reasons, I would like to try full-time recruiting for IB. Of course I'm gonna have to come up with a story to explain why I want to switch now, but how will this look? My pre-MBA experience spans marketing and government regulation bodies, in other words, nothing related to finance...
Have you seen a lot of post-MBA FT hires into IB who haven't done an IB internship after the first year? Appreciate your inputs.
Yes, I have
It will be tough, but if you do go to a top-10 school than FT recruiting will have some banks interviewing for you. Most likely the bulge brackets won't be there, but there should be some boutiques and middle market firms looking to fill their associate class. Worst case, use alumni network reach out to current bankers and start seeing what options are available at a bulge bracket if that is your goal.
Good luck and yes it can be done...
do BB fill their FT spots with summer interns, mostly?
MBA business schools">M7 MBA to IBD - How to prepare (Originally Posted: 01/25/2016)
I am headed to an MBA business schools">M7 MBA this fall, from a background in consulting (Deloitte S&O), followed by Corp. Strategy at a F500 retailer. I am still weighing a few options, but I think that I want to do an IBD internship during the MBA. I don't know if IBD is right for me, but it seems like a fairly low-risk way to test the waters. My understanding is that if I hate IBD, I will still have a fair shot at MBB full time and plenty of other options if that fails. I also have heard that BB IBD is pretty impossible without a summer internship or pre-MBA IBD experience. A few questions to the community as I think this through:
1) Are any of my assumptions above questionable or flat-out wrong?
2) Since I enjoy my current industry (retail), how likely is it that I would be able to continue working in that vertical from the IBD side? Would my prior industry experience help me get into a Consumer/Retail group as a summer associate? What about for full time?
3) What can I do to prepare for recruiting? I am planning to do some accounting/finance/modeling self-study over the summer, but what else would help? Is networking useful at this point, given the many opportunities that will be available once I start school?
4) Related to #3, what separates the MBAs who get the offers from top-tier BB and EBs vs. those who end up at lower tier BB and (gasp) MM banks? Is it interview skills? Finance knowledge/grades? Networking effort? Pre-MBA experience? I imagine the answer is kind of "all of the above", but any guidance on how to differentiate myself is much appreciated.
you are right. you can even do both ibd recruiting and consulting recruiting at same time since consulting requires zero networking.
You have good chance to get into consumer and retail group given your background and it is absolutely a plus to have some group preference (TMT is exception b/c it is too popular).
nothing is required. if you can do some sort of pre-MBA internship involving modeling, it would be great. But most people just travel. The story you have during travel may be more useful than any networking/modeling skills.
(assume from top target school) Fit is most important. Basically whether bankers like you as a person. Unfortunately this is hard to prepare. You just need to know that 80% of interview questions are about fit instead of technical. From certain background also helps but I don't want to get into that on public forum.
bump - any other advice out there on how to prepare and differentiate one's self from the competition?
.
Yes, nyu/Fuqua/darden
B-school prep for transitition to IB (Originally Posted: 10/20/2013)
Hi guys
I come from an MBB and would like to transition to IB after Columbia (class of 2016).
-Would you happen to know if there are previous posts already that looked into this? - Any recommended materials/subjects I should self-study to really prepare myself for the internship/interview/job?
What I already plan to do:
.
Do Wallstreet Prep and BIWS to get your valuation skills developed in Excel
Why?
You don't really have to do much other than have a good story on why banking and then go thru the recruiting motions (e.g. go talk with bankers in person everyday for Columbia/NYU).
Just enjoy your time off. If you worked at MBB and are going to an MBA business schools">M7, there's no reason for you to do any of this other than maybe reach out to a few alums. You won't have any problems getting interviews.
You should work on your attention to detail since you spelled "transition" wrong in the title.
What is the typical career path for post MBA in IBanking? (Originally Posted: 08/31/2010)
Hey all,
Basically what I want to know is this:
if you graduated from a top 15 MBA program (Columbia, NYU, etc) focusing in Finance/Global Markets...what is the traditional career path afterwards in IBanking?
I keep hearing that you will go straight into an Associate position, then obviously VP, MD, if you stick around in Ibanking
but I also read that those wanting to get into PE and VC who dont have any analyst experience are at a disadvantage... am i screwed if i want to get into PE, if i never have the analyst experience?
Based on my undergrad (mech engineering) and my non target school, I am not too optimistic about getting any call backs from the BB or even MM firms this year, so I plan on applying to target Bschools for my MBA next fall.
can anyone provide some information? thanks
Bump?
Career IB: Small vs Big (Originally Posted: 09/30/2015)
Everyone on here asks about exit ops to get into pe/hf, but putting that aside, if I am interested in being a career investment banker I'm wondering what people think would provide the better lifestyle/compensation in the long run: working your way up to partner at a smaller but successful, private firm such as Sandler O'Neill or working your way up to MD/Senior MD at a bigger firm such as Evercore/Jefferies. This is for pure M&A bankers, not traders, sales or anything else.
From people I have met it seems like partners at smaller firms like Sandler tend to do quite well and seem like they aren't killing themselves so I'm intrigued. Any insights would be much appreicated!
It's always good to see people chasing what they love compared to jumping on the bandwagon and going PE HF just because they speculate more money.
Not to interfere, but I'd like to include BBs/Large MMs in this discussion as well.
At a smaller firm you have the ability to make way more money because of the smaller pot to distribute all that income to, but you also have the ability to make way less money because if you don't close any deals, you don't get any money.
At a larger firm, you're pretty much guaranteed to close on deals throughout the year to get your pay, but a smaller firm you are not.
Check out the bio pages on the boutiques (e.g. Perella Weinberg). Almost all of the senior guys started at larger banks and then moved to smaller ones in later years.
Take a look at this thread.
Career Path in IB (Originally Posted: 04/04/2011)
I'm sorry for having to ask such a stupid question, and I'd like to thank anybody that can help clear things up for me, but, while reading through the various threads on wso, I couldn't find a clear outline for what the career path looks like for an IB that stays in the IB industry or for someone that jumps to PE. The basic view that I've gotten is that out of undergrad you spend your first 2 years as an analyst working 100 hour weeks, and after that it all gets fuzzy. It seems like the two options are to go to B-School or try and make the jump to PE, but I'm not entirely sure. Could someone possibly give me an outline for a typical career path for someone that ends up an MD in IB (a little ambitious, I know) or a partner in PE (also ambitious, but one can dream)? Thank You so much!
top 1% hs -> ivy league - > banking -> pe/hf -> greatness
You gotta cream big, kid.
ಠ_ಠ
IBD
Analyst > Associate > VP > ED > MD > SMD/Head/Partner whatever
you might go to business school somewhere inbetween
seriously though do a search
both wso and google will tell you the career path in IBD, PE, HF and the route IBD > PE > HF
Analyst -> 3rd year Analyst -> Associate -> Senior Associate -> VP/D -> Senior VP/Executive D -> MD -> Senior MD -> Head of Group's Region -> Global Head of Group -> Global Head of I-Banking -> C-level positions -> CEO
I guess I phrased the question badly, I apologize. I was asking more about time spent in each position as in 2 or 3 years analyst, 3 years associate, and so on.
I-Banking Career Path? (Originally Posted: 06/09/2013)
Hi! I'm brand new here. I'm very, very new to this. Anyway, I am curious... long-term, what does an i-Banker's future look like? More specifically, do they eventually get weeded out? (Like an "up or out" model) I'd imagine that not everyone can be a big rain maker like the Managing Directors are expected to be? So what happens to those guys? How long can they be an Associate / VP before it becomes the end of the road for them? Or does that not happen? (You just stay put). Does anyone know, statistically, how much burn out there is? It sounds like late nights and a ton of stress are typical? Is this true? Or is it over-hyped and really not that bad?
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