The Prestige Race
I know this forum and Wall Street as a whole places a large premium in prestige, and so have I (not willingly but just the way I was raised I guess) but it's really a race you cannot win. Remember how happy you were when you got into Harvard, Yale, or Princeton? Well, once you get in, you're not gonna be happy until you get into GS/MS, and then you're still not gonna be happy because you need to get into a top buyout shop like KKR or hedge fund like SAC Capital.
Then there's business school - even if youre a pre-MBA associate at KKR you're not gonna be happy until you get into HBS, and then you're not gonna be happy until you get a post-associate at KKR/SAC, and then you want to move up, and then you want to be MD/Partner.
And then you're just getting started. Think you'll be satisfied then? Partners bicker every year for bonuses, committee positions, C-level positions, etc. And then you have to worry about your kids getting into Andover and Exeter, and HYP, and the cycle starts all over again
Shit doesn't end. I'm very focused on the "prestige track" and I'm doing well on it, but I hate how shit doesn't end
And I'm happiest when I'm with friends and family, not when I'm thinking of how highly ranked my school/bank is. Personal relationships are what make you happy, not $100 million -- its weird to say that as a lecture but it's so true. Friends of mine were rich enough to buy $20k watches and were still miserable.
Congrats on figuring this out early. Now you have to figure out what you actually want to do with you life.
But seriously, it doesn't end and you will likely be miserable if you constantly try to compare.
So it seems you have come to the realization that there is more to life than money and prestige, yet you are "very focused on the prestige track."
Am I missing something?
It's sort of that I rationally understand it's stupid to follow that track but part of me still wants to be able to say to friends and colleagues "I work at XXX/I attended XXX university." But I also realize that once you move up all the people around you have your same accomplishments anyway so there's no one who would actually be impressed. Stupid I know but I'm trying to walk away from that mindset
I think alot of people also have the feeling that "If I went to Harvard, going to a regular job is a waste, so I'll got to Goldman." but once they start at goldman it's "I did 2 years at goldman, it's a waste NOT to go to KKR, etc" ad infinitum
Probably tough to let it go because you place so much of your self-worth in the supposed prestige of where you work. Like you said, outside of WSO (real world) and even on WSO, most people don't give a shit how prestigious a company you work for is...the sooner you mature and get over that the better. If you actually enjoy your work and you want to continue working at top shops because you like the culture / environment / whatever, then nothing wrong with that. Just let go of the prestige card...it's pretentious and sad.
Most people know (or at least eventually figure it out) that there are brilliant people and morons at almost every company and institution -- so don't be so sure that everyone is judging you by the name on your business card.
Generally speaking, the only people that care or are impressed that you went to XXX university or work at XXX Bank are people that are in similar situations. Otherwise you just sound pretentious when those are the things that define you.
keep that mentality during college so you'll have a good resume after it then think about having a change of heart
One word:
Insecurity.
And I'm going to venture a guess that you're Asian - amirite?
Patrick -- thanks, I'm trying to do that now and I'm happy I'm coming to this realization at 20 as opposed to as a miserable 45 year old MD at Blackstone
This realization is both liberating and empowering in that you are far less beholden to the complex once you're there - suddenly, your employer has that much less sway over you. Of course, you still (probably) need a paycheck, but no longer are you obsessed with working at ____ just because it is the most prestigious.
SB for OP, even if it is a somewhat obvious realization that all monkeys should come to.
You're wise beyond your years if you realize this while you're still in college. Check out my signature for my feelings on the subject.
It will make me kill someone over a business card.
Some people just want to succeed in things that are rankable. Prestige / reputation can be ranked; hence, the self-fulfillment that comes with it. This is normal and hard to shake off if you just HAVE it internally. You can't cure short or tall, and you can't cure some internal character traits.
Now if you're one of those restless souls and you do succeed, then you should be happy - life is a challenge that you're good at. Imagine how shitty those people with ambition feel who for whatever reason can't or don't or feel like they don't achieve anything.
I don't care about prestige. I would be a janitor if it paid me right.
Congrats guys on figuring this out early. Your 20s are some of the best years of your life (though we do have folks learning to fly hang gliders at 50), but you're not really living if life is all about money and prestige.
There is no point working harder than you need to get what's REALLY important out of life. John Rockefeller was a man who gained the world but felt he lost his soul in the process. One of his last letters, he wrote, "I am a shell of a man", and explained how he was lonely, friendless, and his only comfort was his dividend checks.
Howard Hughes was one of the world's first billionaires and arguably cooler and more prestigious in the 1950s than anything today's 22-year-olds aspire to. When he died in 1976, he was alone in Guatemala, his fingernails were twelve inches long, his arms were riddled with stabs from the morphine injections he was addicted to.
That's what it takes to get to the top- and that's how it ends for folks who get there. Is that what folks REALLY want?
I'll take free time, friends, and hang gliding and a comfortable six figures, thank you very much. Someone else can go enjoy bigger salaries, and the screwed up families, sycophantic relationships, and general misery that come with doing whatever it takes to get to the top.
I think everyone does some of that to some extent. Older, wiser people have learned to do it less. Of course, everyone has a lot of work to do on getting wiser- when we're 22, we're the Oracle of Delphi, when we're 25, we turn into total fools.Life is a search for meaning and self-worth. It's a lot easier to find it when you're not obsessed with prestige.
Yes it's easy to realize that prestige is overrated but it's not like you can help it. Most people who care about prestige are fairly driven people in the first place. They try very hard during high school and do well academically to get into a good college. By this time the people you hang out with and associate it are also likely overachievers so naturally you all go to top colleges. In college you maintain this mentality and realize you want to go into finance. Everyone else wants to go into finance and since you are driven you want to go the best place. You want to go to a bulge bracket because everyone else is going and you don't want to be viewed as a failure. When you're at Goldman everyone wants KKR, so you want it to... and the cycle continues. Basically your friends/coworkers all desire the same thing which makes you desire it. If all your college buddies went to top banks and you went to a no-name place or couldn't land a job (because you didn't care about prestige) would you be happy about it?
Not saying I disagree with your sentiment but it's a lot harder to just say "Yeah I don't care about prestige anymore."
Also I don't think wanting to go to KKR -> HBS is a sign of being a prestige whore; just that you're very driven. If you had a Harvard undergrad and simply wanted the pedigree of HBS then there may be something wrong, but if you want to go to a PE shop or Bschool it makes sense to try to go the top. As long as your mentality isnt KKR/HBS or depression then you're fine.
interpret as you will
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100322092057.htm
[quote=clownfish]interpret as you will
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100322092057.htm[/quote]
Great find! Check this out as well.
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/09/07/the-perfect-salary-for-happiness…
But remember, Ben Affleck aka Jim Young once said "They say money can't buy happiness? Look at the fucking smile on my face. Ear to ear, baby" :)
I think if you make $19k one year and $20k the next year (and your friends make $15k), you're happy, but if you make $500k one year and $400k the next (and your friends made $1million) you're not
Very thoughtful post. It's sad, but many of us derive our self-worth from pedigree and accomplishments. I think this is especially true for guys who were not the the cool jocks in high school and are consequently trying to compensate for that.
I still remember being nearly suicidal when I didn't get into harvard, yale, princeton. I've changed a lot, but now i'm sweating over getting into a top 5 MBA program and fantasizing about how fun and awesome my life will be if i get in.
Dude, jjc, relax man. You got into frigging UPenn. It's like that girl in Calculus class who started crying over her 98% on the exam. She wanted a 100%- what a travesty!
If you get into groan a horrible MBA program like #10-ranked Berkeley, it's not the frigging end of the world. Go grab a drink after work and start fantasizing about what life will be like when you get to take a year off for grad school.
Upenn undergrad is not in the same universe as HYP, when it comes to prestige, campus life, and overall experience. But whatever. That was a long time ago, and I'm over it.
Bored as hell in Chicago. Along with helping me to make a career switch into investment management, a top MBA program will be the most 2 fun years of my life: tons of parties, traveling, meeting smart and interesting people.
penn is nowhere near HYP
People need to stop comparing themselves to others and start thinking about how blessed they are when 25% of folks under 25 are unemployed. I'm just grateful I can put food on the table, have health insurance, and can afford to do the things I enjoy doing. Not everybody can.
Life is a lot better when you keep things in perspective and you remember to stay thankful for what you DO have.
This needs to be said about 900 times a day on this site IP. You are NEVER, regardless of what job you do, where you work etc. going to be able to honestly say that you are the shit to end all shits. There is definitely something to be said for understanding where you are and what you have. Its a sad, shitty person that sits in his huge beach house, next to a hot wife and drives a nice car that looks next door and wonders what the other guy has in his garage.
I think this thread is complete now that IP has managed to squeeze in a mention of 1) the greatness of a house on lake Michigan and 2) hang gliding.
For IP Completeness, we also need a reference to programming/ CS Theory.
There.
I've liked the Penn/Wharton kids I have met in business and academia. Smart, hungry and sans arrogance, knock on wood. When I am hiring, I see that as a +1 immediately.
Why settle for Andover and Exeter when you can send your kids to Eton, Harrow, or Le Rosey?
BTW, JJC, I don't mean to rag on you. Trying to cheer you up about all of this. There's a lot of people out there right now who would KILL to be in your situation.
Of course they would. They did nothing to earn it. I'm sure jjc would also be very happy if he became a partner in Blackstone without having to do all the work to get there. It's all ROE. High return = more happiness ^__^
Argonaut, that is an extemely ignorant thing to say. There are a lot of people that would like to be in this guy's position and aren't but not necessarily because they did 'nothing' to get there. Here's an idea. Bend over and extract your head from your ass.
Guys,
happiness is not the end goal. Humans are biologically not made to be happy. If human males were happy and could have sex 24/7 wed still be living in caves. Its about making progress. Its about bringing mankind forward. That's not done through chasing KKR and HBS, but its done through working hard in a field your passionate about. And its more done through chasing dreams and prestige than just giving up and settling for mediocrity and chilling out.
Sure as you become older and more reasonable, you adapt to your current life situation and become less ambitious, otherwise you would become depressed. But for now stay hungry.
Lol, hes bitter about going to Penn. This is truly pathetic.
hey finally an interesting topic on WSO. I'm actually happy to see that many people here see beyond the brand on the diploma or business card. My background is about as un-prestigious as it can get. Baruch College followed by some OPS at MS and then a somewhat successful online retail venture along with an underfunded startup.
Funny enough some of my friends that are from more prestigious backgrounds told me that they would love to be in my position. I on the other hand wish to be in theirs. I think for most people its a grass is always greener deal. Funny enough I have a friend who is selfmade (100m networth) Dude has everything... enormous mansions, exotic cars, famous pornstar fuckbuddies etc...and he is COMPLETELY miserable!! Cant stop complaining about his life. On the other hand most middle class people of average means that have a loving family and a somewhat stable job are probably a lot happier with their lives than he is...
i call bs no one who is worth 100m can affords mansions(plural) and exotic cars(plural) with out being leveraged in debt
3 Mansions = 40 mil 8 Exotics = 15 mil Pornstar Fuck Buddies = Priceless
Being worth 100mm doesn't mean he's liquid.
its because he is a Godless man. seriously pornstar fuck buddies?
I find that whenever I adopt the "stop and smell the roses" attitude, my performance (in classes/interviews) always falls short of what I am capable of. So, in order to squeeze the best out of myself, I find it necessary to adopt the "_______ or bust" mindset ex ante. Screwed up, I know. Anyone else suffer from a similar neurosis?
agree i have same exact shit and people telling me don't be so focused in school have fun get krunk
There's a time for work and a time for rest in life. There's a season for everything- including one for stopping to smell the roses- even if it's only one day a week.
I would find trying to become the world's best marathon runner very boring. And folks who need to be the very best tend to have trouble making friends with most folks- and all but one of them tend to wind up pretty darned disappointed and frustrated. You can never have too much ambition and competitiveness when it comes to helping your team- when I get up every morning, I want to us to kick MS's butt and I want to play a role in doing that. Too much individual ambition, though, scares folks. Of the people that obsessively pursue being #1, only one person might get there. Everyone else tends to wind up unhappy, frustrated, and mildly deranged.I think a lot of folks who last a long time in this industry find intellectual pursuits interesting and are instead obsessed with making sure their team is #1 and helping make the folks they work with successful. Success tends to be contagious, and sometimes the best way to pursue it isn't the direct route.
From the first adrenaline rush, to the secondary endorphin wave bringing freedom from every ache and pain to I don't know what brain chemical enveloping the body and mind in lightness, clarity, peace, and oneness with the earth, running can get pretty addictive. More so than food, more so than money. At that point the drive is not to be the best or give 110%, it's to learn to get to the zone fast, and to stay in it for a long period of time. Kinda like meditating or tantric sex. But maybe tantric sex is boring to you. Maybe you're more into circle-jerk: last one eats the cracker!
Am I the only one that finds the alternative to the "prestige race"(or as I will define it for purpose of my argument, racing for excellence in field of your choice) very boring?
What's the point of not trying to attain excellence? You just life an average life like billions of ppl before you, you don't excel at anything, your reasonable happy and then you die and that's it. Sound's pretty bad to me
My brother in law went to a top school/top group in IB/top Bschool/top PE shop route. He started a business and sold it for a hundred mil. While starting the second he hit a snag on the way.
My sister used to tell me that he was fighting depression at the time and would cry every night saying that he is a failure.
YOU WILL NOT WIN THIS RACE SON. THERE ARE NO WINNERS.
Why would you ever want a pornstar fuck buddy? That's just stupid.
And because she probably has a pretty good idea what she's doing....
Great post! Motivate me to think about life after IBD! Appreciate it!
easy to get in hard to get out
--mr. gekko
chasing goals is not bad just make sure they are your goals and not somebody else's. The problem with chasing "prestige" is that you are inherently chasing other people's goals and therefore when you attain them it will likely be a disappointment.
"Prestige" in finance (Originally Posted: 02/25/2016)
I'm still in undergraduate and never quite understood this whole "prestige" thing, is it really that important to work for a prestigious firm??
And out of interest how would you rank VC v. IBD v. PE in terms of prestige? say Goldman, Sequoia and a large PE firm.
Prestige = no matter how shit you're life is, you believe that other people think you are in a better position than XX% of the reference population.
It's validating your worth through other people's eyes and is the sort of thinking that helps some people cry themselves to sleep.
Interestingly, it's much more correlated with the perception of earning capacity than it is with actual material well-being. It has very low correlation to emotional well-being, if not an inverse relation.
See also: Status anxiety, teen popularity contests, narcissism, psychopaths, materialism, status insecurity, trophy wives, dick size contests, circle jerks, crying on the inside
Perhaps, but outside perceptions can often help open doors.
Somewhat related to my point re correlation to prestige to actual material wealth, every bonus/promotion I'm reminded of this quote:
“A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon”
Napoleon on 15 July 1815 to the captain of HMS Bellerophon. The HMS Bellerophon carried Napoleon from the Ile d’Aix to Plymouth before he was transferred to the HMS Northumberland and taken into exile on St Helena.
Give someone a new business card title and you can get away with skimping on their bonus.
On a superficial level, it's a dick measuring tool.
On a practical level, it's a proxy for the perception of the caliber of the work one is doing. It's easier to move from a "more prestigious" job with great exposure/quality team to a lesser firm than it is to go from what people think of as lower quality work/team/etc to a much higher one.
If you lose sleep over something like this though, you need to reevaluate your life. Shoot for a job that you want to do, don't pick a job based on other's perception.
It's all about the prestige.
a wise man once said, Prestige is the best way to make bright people waste time on futile matters.
In all reality, even if you don't care about prestige, the reason it comes into effect is because others care about it. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how one may look at it, it has the ability to jump start your career or give you a push to get your resume in the appropriate pile for your next job.
I regard prestige as a marketing tool, nothing more or less. It's good for impressing foolish people who....unfortunately, are the majority even among "smart" professions.
That said OP you are making a huge mistake. You should only judge prestige within career fields, not between. It's idiotic to choose between, say, finance vs law because you think one is more prestigious than the other: the jobs are completely different, appeal to different people, and will open different doors. You'd also be foolish to choose a prestigious liberal arts Ivy league school over MIT/GATech if you want to be an engineer. One might be more "prestigious", but the engineering schools would position you much better for success as an engineer or quant.
On the other hand it's extremely useful within fields. Working for a "prestigious" company for a few years is a good way to get a certified "smart person" stamp on your resume, which in turn can make like getting into top graduate programs, top PE firms, and making sales in competitive industries much easier. The way I see it is that if you're going to be doing the same kinds of work why not do it at a place that will open more doors?
So to the OP: Who give a shit which field is the most "prestigious"? Try to get an internship in one or two of them, and see how well you like it. Worst case scenario is that you can rule it out as something you want to do permanently and you'll have both a good resume bullet and a good story for why you want to do the job you end up doing.
On Prestige (Originally Posted: 02/23/2011)
I am writing this post not only to explain "prestige" to new and inexperienced readers, but also to reassure the readers in the industry that some people here understand the game. Let me begin by making a blanket statement that many agonizing prestige-related posts fail to recognize:
Prestige is relative and unique to every individual.
That which is considered prestigious to one individual may not necessarily be considered prestigious to another. Each individual has a unique set of priorities derived from morals and values specific to that individual. What's more, a leader in prestige with regard to one value may not necessarily be the prestige leader in terms of another value.
It is impossible for someone to ask about prestige without providing some set of values or priorities. In other words, prestigious with regard to what? As it is specific to this website, below are a few of the most common values or measures of prestige:
"Which is most prestigious with regard to ..."
1) Exit opportunities. A job may be considered more prestigious if it provides a better likelihood of helping you get to the firm you ultimately want to work for.
2) Envy of others in financial services or a similar field. Example: Working at Qatalyst, Citadel, or Carlyle may be considered prestigious to others pursuing a career in finance or similar field.
3) Envy of friends and/or family Example: Working at Apple, Google, or simply in New York may be considered more prestigious than working at KKR in Menlo Park.
4) Opportunities on the job Example: Having a large amount of responsibility, ability to move up the ladder quickly, or an interesting workload/dealflow may make a certain job more prestigious.
5) Compensation
And a few more which are considered "prestigious" to some:
6) Time off of work Example: A high school teacher may find their job more prestigious than an investment banker
7) Job security Example: A tenured college professor may find their job more prestigious than a prop trader on Wall Street
8) Genuine interest in the content of the work Example: A classics major may find their degree more prestigious than someone with an economics or finance degree
"Which is furthest?" "Which weighs more?" "Which costs more?" Questions like these can be answered in miles, pounds, and dollars. However, "Which is more prestigious?" does not have an answer...it is entirely dependent on the individual. "Which is more prestigious with regard to ..." can have a correct answer, or at least result in a collection of opinions allowing you to form your own opinion you view as the correct answer.
By no means is the above an all-inclusive list, but it offers an idea of what might make a company, job, degree of study, or school prestigious. Answers or informed opinions can be given for all of the above values. Before asking about prestige, understand what you consider prestigious. And when actually asking about prestige, include what you consider prestigious in your question.
What I have said may be very familiar to some of you, but for the others I hope I have provided some valuable insight. I also hope that in the inevitable future posts that emptily ask about prestige without any qualification, the thread can be ended with a link to this post.
Please feel free to leave any additional thoughts, feedback, or constructive criticism.
Gah, great post I was going to post this tonight...
Not a bad post.
Prestige is a purely subjective phenomenon. It is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
Harvard is more prestigious than your local community college because it is harder to get into Harvard. In the eyes of a Yanamamo villager who's heard of neither, Harvard's prestige disappears entirely.
If you really want to make a deep point about prestige, talk about it as a tool used by our employers to bait wet behind the ears undergraduates into signing the best years of their lives to them. In a dollar per hour basis, we are not doing that much better than a normal 40-hr week job in flyover country. But it is oh so prestigious.
not bad at all. Personally im curious about what is more prestigious given the choice of having your own somewhat sucessful business or working as an ibanker.
prestige isn't what lets you sleep well at night
to the above: absolutely without any doubt the entrepreneur, hands down, no contest
Good post, it's true. Almost everything in life is relative. There is so much subjectivity in every decision, every choice that it's naive, even immature to say what's "better" from your perspective because it's inherently slanted by your own values instead of being impartial.
very well said
Bravo, this quote really ties into the theme of this post.
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, the way to do it is to bait the hook with prestige." -Paul Graham
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This is relative too your belief's...how does subjectivity have limits....?
Yeah, unemployed people get tons of time of. Does that mean they have the most prestigious job?
Know what's prestigious? Pharaoh of Egypt, Prince of Monaco or Emperor of Japan is prestigious. Quarterback for the New York Giants is prestigious. First man to walk on the Moon is prestigious. The rest of us are simply deluding ourselves.
What i think when I ask about prestige:. To me the position is the GS of my location, so to me, and to the point of this post, it is extremly presitgous.
However my lack of Street knowledge, due to my location, led me to want to know..how do others view it who are closer to the norm (the Street). I want to know, should I want to go to PE in NY, what are they going to say about my bank?
IMO, people should know what the world outside of their little box thinks, because in the end it could be important.
Prestige is for people who compare themselves with others. Who gives a flying fuck. If you are so insecure I think you have more important things to worry about.
Next time you see a guy on the train or what not and think "wow I bet his life is awesome, he has an Audmars Piguet, he is wearing a Brioni suit and hanging out with a model to boot". Yes, chances are this guys life rawks but you have no idea how he truly feels inside, only he knows how he feels. You can try and keep up with the Jones' all you want, and I once did feverishly but I realized how empty and hollow my life was going to be if I continued down that track. No one I want to be friends with or have any voluntary association with cares about how much I make or where I work or even what I do. I was talking with an MD at a bank when I was coming in, more of an information interview, he was from another country and he shared with me that back home he was friends with guys who had similar interests (soccer, rugby, cricket, etc..) in sports teams, he had no clue what they did for a living but could tell you their favorite team, kid's names, and other info that he felt important.
Business is the pursue of profits. If you are involved in the field of business, you are involved in the pursue of profits. As an individual, your business is to up your income and net worth.
In this day and age where people change firms every 2-3 years, there is no value in a firm being "prestigious". It was different back in the day where you were an "IBM man" and it meant something. Being at IBM meant you were spending the vast part of your life working for the corporation and the corporation paid for your retirement. The current job market isn't patriarchal, its competitive.
As its competitive, you go where the money is. Its time to stop thinking of life in college admissions terms. Life isn't dictated by a series of U.S. News-esque lists. When you fall into hardship, your prestigious/ex-prestigious job won't meant anything. Your bank account and family will mean something. Focus on those.
Goldman Sachs is the only prestigious bank.
[quote=MBAstudent2012]Goldman Sachs is the only prestigious bank.
]
Someone should really post this video one more time
Great post. Randombetch should read this.
Farthest. Furthest measures a degree of accomplishment.
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Could we define prestige based on envy aroused? That's clearly external. And solves some of the dilemmas between work-life, location, firm name, exit etc. Of course, then you have to ask, who is envious, and if you only care about a certain group's approval (which you would have to, or anyone lucky enough to have a computer and post on WSO would have some level of prestige in the eyes of the majority of the world), then that subset is internally defined and prestige is no longer purely externally imposed
NHL, while I admire the post and understand what you are trying to get at, I think you lost your way in the middle.
Prestige is defined reputation or esteem. I understand that people may want certain jobs for certain reasons and I admire those people that ignore prestige in their job choice. The teacher who wants time off or simply enjoys teaching or the classics major who decided to major in what he/she was interested in chose those paths because they wanted to. And, correct me if I am wrong, I believe you are trying to say that people have different values and not everyone wants to make a million year in Investment banking.
However, your definition of prestige is simply innaccurate. Being a teacher is admirable, but hardly prestigious. Because prestige, by definition, is determined by outside opinions and not one's own, certain things in society are generally prestigious and certain things are not. Of course, this depends a lot on culture and the values of the people you surround yourself with as well.
If you wrote in your original post that being a teacher may be considered prestigious by some because the idea of teaching youth and being willing to take the lower pay is admirable, I would agree with you. However, a job cannot be prestigious because it is less hours, or at least not in any societies I know, or else being unemployed would be prestigious.
Like Monkeyc said, prestige is defined by those around us and not us by definition. For better or for worse, Goldman Sachs in prestigious to a society that values money just as being a college professor is prestigious in societies that value intellectual curiousity.
Prestige won't matter at 2 AM when you're stuck at work working on a financial model. You have to like what you're doing.
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Prestige nonsense (Originally Posted: 10/10/2008)
I'm getting sick of this chat on who is more prestigious than who...
This prestige and rank the bank nonsense is total bullshit. As anyone in the industry knows - its what you do and who you are that makes it important not which instituition you work for.
Prestige only counts when you are talking to uninformed people who do not work in the industry - and they would think someone at the mail room at goldman sachs is more prestigious than an M&A banker at Citi ((but then again they could actually think citi is more prestigious as they would have a higher chance of recognising the brand)
the only relevant comparison is between tiers. but then again, who compares "prestige" between tiers. get a life the main game is
i. how much money you make ii. what you have accomplished in your career
In life, first impressions can count enormously, and you say yourself it counts with "uninformed people". Well, most people I converse with when socialising etc are "uninformed" ie they don't work in finance. To make a good first impression, working at a well-respected, famous, well-regarded firm is a lot more impressive than being at an unknown, 2nd/3rd tier bucket shop. As does a job title like "Investment Banker" or "Trader" as opposed to "Infrastructure Support". And if you ever want to apply for MBA school, move out of the industry etc, a universally known company on your resume will stand you in much better stead than a smaller unknown firm. And anyway, the responsibility you get to work on larger deals, or for sales/trading have much bigger sizes at your disposal, is obviously much more likely at a BB than a 3rd tier bank. I'm all in favour of small boutiques though which should give you potentially better exposure / responsibility than BBs. I don't care so much about money in the bank because nobody has any idea about that, its crude to show it off, if you get a big property / car people may assume you just loaned it / got it from your Dad.. I'd take a paycut to become "Vice President at Goldman Sachs" rather than my current shop!
Bottom line, I think someone said it here before, if prestige didn't matter you wouldn't have people fighting so hard to get into Ivy Leagues, to get into Goldmans (and soon to be JPMorgan) and McKinsey.. lots of people care about prestige, deal with it.
=== 23yr old Associate
prestige is tied to the success of the firm; bear and lehman were once considered to be prestigious. of course people want to attend ivy league universities - the career opportunities coming out of these institutions is incredible.
prestige only takes you so far. ultimately, your success will be determined by many other and more important factors such as intelligence, charisma, judgment, etc. those who define themselves by the name of the company on their business card won't go very far.
kuka - the assertion that you don't care how much money you have in the bank is confusing. why do you place such an emphasis on other people's perception of your wealth? would you really prefer to take a paycut just so that you can add the words "Vice President" and "Goldman Sachs" to your resume? seeing as you're a trader, i don't understand that logic.
Kuka--what you're missing is that prestige only matters early in one's career. Yes, it's quite important as an analyst or an associate because it will open doors as you transition into the next level of your career.
That said, once you reach mid-level prestige means nothing. Only accomplishments and money. Proof of that is the tremendous turnover all over Wall Street. How many times have you seen director of MD level people leaving the Goldmans of the world to go to a BNP Paribas, Soc Gen, or a boutique? The answer is: all the time. People are picked off from the very best desks on the street all the time, and go on to other shops that usually have lower "prestige". Why? Because you get the chance to run your own show and do it for significantly more pay.
Credit crisis aside, you wouldn't find a single MD at Goldman who wouldn't leave in a heartbeat for a smaller, "less prestigious" shop for twice the pay, and more power. You may find one exception who stays because he just had twins and needs job security, but no one will stay purely because of the Goldman name.
"I'd take a paycut to become "Vice President at Goldman Sachs" rather than my current shop!"
VP is a higher position than Associate.
JuwannaMann, I think that was his point. He was saying that he would would be willing to make less money at a more senior position, given that its with Goldman.
By the time you actually qualified to be a vp, as has been said above, you wouldn't give a damn where you worked but how much money you were making. This is constantly discussed and more or less everybody who seems to actually work in the industry agrees that its only students and a few industry people with insecurities who actually even give it a moment's thought.
Clearly prestige isn't everything (Originally Posted: 04/22/2011)
This is a clear example of a prestige fail
Yeah but Harvard students get way better Who Wants to Be a Millionaire placement...
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