Thoughts? Post talks about being a POC on Wall Street. For context, the account was created by a Queens University student to document discrimination at the business school which sends many kids to Wall Street from Canada, but is also known for taking rich, white, private school kids.
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This happened to someone I interned with at a US top BB. No POC in our group received offers...we had one intern who was garbage but was an Asian/white female who got a return over someone who was a POC that was always staffed on something/grinding away. Mind blown.
Hey, Asians are POC too...maybe not as disadvantaged as other POC, but I think the coronavirus has proven what us Asians have known for a long time, and that would be that people are still racist towards Asians
Ah yes, MS me. I can't believe me saying that Asians are discriminated against due to not being white is a controversial or incorrect take
Asians make up the richest ethnicities in the United States - there are much bigger problems. Open your eyes. (This was written by an Asian).
If they didn’t get an offer it’s probably because they were incompetent or unprofessional (as it is 99% of the time). The way this is written with the boogeyman privileged white girl getting through her job while exerting zero effort sounds ridiculous.
Probably BS or absurdly exaggerated.
I'm likely going to get a ton of MS for saying this, but whatever...
We need to know the full story on things before blaming every POC's obstacles on racism.
In the post, it's kind of clear why Jill got the offer and Sarah didn't. To a higher extent than Sarah, Jill connected with the team more and was able to relate to the bankers on a personal level. Based on the post, it seems that Jill had more in common with the bankers (the ones who make the hiring decisions) than Sarah does, and Jill was able to hold a much longer and deeper conversation with the decision makers. There is more to being a great intern than working long hours. You need to connect with the team, show that you can be next to them for 80 hours a week, and be a people-person (after all, this is a client facing business). You need to be likable. Can they grab a beer with you? Can they sit at the airport with you? You get the point.
Some of you may say "Well Sarah isn't able to connect with the bankers because she comes from a less fortunate background". Well, that makes it a class thing, not a race thing. Because they still hired her as an intern knowing she was black - it's not like they didn't notice when they were interviewing her for 6 hours and she just became black after she accepted the offer. And some will follow up with "Well, how would POC from less fortunate backgrounds be able to relate to wealthier bankers in the first place? They don't have rich parents who also own vacation homes in the Hamptons. That's not fair". That's right, but again - it's a class thing, not a race thing. It's possible a poor white intern will not be able to connect as well with a rich white MD as a rich black intern would. In this case, they still hired her as an intern, knowing that she was black. If they were really racist, they wouldn't have hired her as an intern in the first place - and I can tell you for sure, there were a 100s (if not 1000s) of people in line behind Sarah for that spot. And they gave it to her.
The reality is, even if interns aren't rockstars, they can still get hired if they are likable. If you were awarded two free tickets to the superbowl, who are you going to pick to go with you - your friend Tom, or stranger Bill, some poor guy who knits his own jerseys and has been dreaming about going since he was a kid? You're going to pick Tom. Because you know Tom and you like Tom. But that doesn't mean you have anything against Bill. Similarly, in this case, it seems the bankers got along with Jill more (assuming she was competent), so they picked her. Maybe there was one spot, who knows. Maybe the team felt like Sarah didn't get along with the team that much. Again, we need all the details, but it's likely that they didn't give Sarah an offer for other reasons (fit, work quality, budget, etc.) - not because she was black. Again, they still hired her as an intern, knowing she was black. If they were racist, that would have never happened. And no - HR has no say in hiring a specific amount of diverse folks to meet "quotas". Shit candidates are shit candidates. The only thing HR does is provide the opportunity for minorities to interview with the firm, and encourage us to give them a chance (which most groups happily do - in fact, minorities are some of the hardest working folks out there). But again, shit candidates are shit candidates - white, black, asian, brown, green, purple, doesn't matter.
What interns need to know is that there is working HARD, and there is working SMART. Yes, the quality of your work matters as an intern, but let's be real, you are expected to screw up here and there. As long as you "pass", it all comes down to how much the team likes you, how much you have in common, how well you get along, etc. Based on the post, it sounds like Sarah worked hard and Jill worked smart. Interns aren't hired because they can stay awake in front of a screen for 20 hours a day... And some of you are gonna hate hearing this, but banks are not obligated to give anyone offers. Does it suck if they don't give you an offer? Yes. Should they hire interns if they don't plan on hiring them for FT? Probably not. Do they owe you a FT job offer? No.
I get that the situation sucks for Sarah - but the post is very one-sided. We need to know everything before pointing it at race. It's an awful thing to be racist, but it's also awful to wrongfully assume and blame others of being racist without knowing everything.
Very well articulated
Is this a joke? You really don't think that white female analysts aren't gonna bond with a white girl more in a predominantly white environment?
"connected with the team more and was able to relate to the bankers on a personal level" you don't think that this might be because of subconscious bias?
Edit: White boys and their monkey shit can kiss my ass
Sure there is a bias, but there's a difference between "I get along with her more because we have more in common" than "I didn't hire her because she was black". Liking someone and getting along with them more because they have more in common with you is one thing. Being racist is another. We need to know all the details. If you're the only black person and two white people are having a conversation about their white people things and you can't fully relate, it doesn't mean they are racist. If you went up to them and they said "sorry, we are talking about white people stuff, you can't join", that's different. Again, we need to know all the details and we can't just assume things before that.
Per the post, Jill made an active effort to get along with the team while Sarah had her head down grinding away.
You do realize that racism isn’t always explicit, right? No one’s ever going to say “I don’t like her because she’s black.”
"white people are having a conversation about their white people things and you can't fully relate, it doesn't mean they are racist."
It's racist because in this context it's not inclusive
So if two Chinese people are talking about celebrating Chinese New Years this weekend in front of their white co-worker, are the two Chinese folks racist?
If it's the ONLY culture they talk about and talking about it is a prerequisite to fitting in then it's racist
Sure - but like I said, we need to know everything before definitively saying that it's racist. They talked about designer trends and vacations.
Which completely fails to ignore how implicit bias works. I wonder why those supervisors would feel more comfortable connecting with Jill on a personal level to get to the point of talking about stuff outside of work?
The whole "Sarah lacked soft skills" thing doesn't play out given the post explicitly stated she was cheerful and had a good attitude.
If you know anything about corporate at all, you should know that "cheerful and good attitude" is NOT the same thing as soft skills.
I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong. I'm not saying Sarah is right or wrong. I'm not saying the bankers are right or wrong. What I am saying is that you need to know the FULL story, from BOTH sides before definitively concluding that it was racist. We can't just automatically assume that.
Yes there is racism, bias, and all that bad stuff in the workplace. But that doesn't mean EVERY time a POC isn't promoted, it's because the color of their skin.
Do you think a black girl in a predominantly white environment would have been allowed to "leave work early and chat with her friends on the phone in the office"
I don't think that you've ever worked in IB or any professional setting. In IB, there is a lot of downtime, and interns wait for comments. Most groups on the Street let you go to the gym, grab a coffee, or talk on the phone while waiting for comments.
I'm starting to think you're Sarah.
I think she can if she is with the right team (one that doesn't match the evil description you are painting). But like I said many times, we are only hearing one side of the story. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.
You're assuming implicit bias and racism are equal at all levels (hence, the comparison of a summer intern not getting an offer to the murder of George Floyd). Implicit bias in this case is when you find yourself being closer to folks like yourself and giving them the said opportunity and unfortunately leaving someone different out of said opportunity. Racism in this case is when you make an intentional and ACTIVE decision to not hire or benefit someone because of the color of their skin. Neither of these things are great things, but they are NOT the same.
I agree with what you are saying, but taking a step back I think when people say racism nowadays in context of corporate culture they really mean what you defined as implicit bias. Yes there is a distinction, yes perhaps people use the term "racism" incorrectly or too loosely, but for the purpose of this discussion please just think implicit bias when people say racism and then you'd be more on the same page
Strawman argument
No one said the two situations were of the same gravitas
Just that implicit bias exists and was a motivating force in both
"if she's on the right team"
But what if this wasn't the right team? What percentage of teams realistically are the right team?
Then that's unfortunate and she should look elsewhere. And it also means we, as a society, need to fix that problem. But like I said a bunch of times I don't disagree with you - I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but we can't make assumptions and just point fingers until we know everything. How many times do I need to tell you?
You can't say
"thinking is that folks are more willing to give opportunities and chances to someone they feel comfortable with and can relate to"
in response to a point supporting implicit bias
and then say you agree with me that implicit bias exists
Sarah - if that's you, the reason why you didn't get an offer is because you can't read and you don't listen.
"thinking is that folks are more willing to give opportunities and chances to someone they feel comfortable with and can relate to" can be implicit bias, sure. But it's not the racism you keep referring to (i.e. George Floyd). You keep implying they are the same thing, but they are not.
Speaking with another person because you have something in common with them and that's what you prefer, resulting in unfavorable odds for a POC is NOT the same as George Floyd. Neither are great. It's disrespectful to compare what happened to him to someone not getting a return offer.
Implicit bias is a form of racism the way a cold is a form of a larger paradigm of illness
bbc. com/news/amp/magazine-40124781
My man just doesn't want to admit he's racist to some extent bc he has implicit biases himself just like everyone else
I don't how many times I need to tell you Sarah. I agree with all your points, but until we have the full picture, you shouldn't call something racist.
But you literally just said
"But it's not racism. You keep implying they are the same thing, but they are not"
Okay Sarah - I'm not going to argue with you because this is going nowhere. You need to reread everything carefully. Enjoy the rest of your summer, and best of luck during recruiting.
So glad this dude's not my associate
And I'm glad you're not my analyst. Oh wait...
Oh boy, this is an anti-white racism experience in China, that's happened to a lot of former colleagues. It might help you by placing you on the other side of the table.
If your line of thinking is true, and racism isn’t always the case, then why are most corporate environments predominately white? Why are literally all senior MDs white men ( exceptions obv for women initiatives nowadays)? Implicit racism is a systemic issue within finance, corporate law, etc. If it wasn’t such a big issue and Asians/blacks/latinos aren’t discriminated against, then why aren’t there more of them in senior positions? Because they don’t “fit” in? Doubtful IMO.
I agree. The sad thing is, this typically becomes a race thing — not because anybody is being racist, but because of demographics. How is some kid that grew up broke ever going to be able to chat it up about skiing trips and the Hampton’s etc etc. It has nothing to do with color of skin from the offset, but it eventually will, more often than not, have adverse effects on people of color simply due to their upbringing. I think one way to get around this is figure out how else to connect with somebody. Get creative; learn how to gab about pointless shit. Make them laugh. Ask them about their day. Let people know you’re there, and don’t alienate yourself because of your differences. Sure it might be more work, but as somebody who is a beneficiary of a capitalist system, you should be worried about getting ahead and not being hung up about getting even. - a POC
This is a fucking joke, you are literally part of the problem.
So saying you need to know the full story before calling someone a racist makes you part of the problem? The post is completely one-sided, which is understandable but wouldn't it make sense to get all the facts first? Maybe she was a poor performer. Maybe she didn't show she was super interested in the field. Maybe there were other reasons why she wasn't extended an offer. It doesn't matter if the intern was white, asian, black or whatever until we know all the facts. Is racism acceptable? No. Does it happen in the workplace? Yes.
In no way am I saying there was or wasn't racism involved - but we only see one side of the story here. It's not wrong to say "hold up, let's get all the facts first before we make a final verdict". That's what most logical people do anyway.
If anything, the unwarranted, vague and unintelligible finger-pointing makes you more part of the problem than someone who says "wait, let's put all the pieces together before we look at this and say it's actually a result of racism". Last time I checked, "everyone's voice matters, let's hear them out" sounds more like equality than "yeah, we don't need the details because only my side matters, that person was definetely a racist"
This joke of a thread only exemplifies why there's such a diversity problem in this industry
Yeah because people fail to acknowledge that there’s even racism in finance to begin with...sad.
Yeah, the posts reads completely tone-deaf. No self-awareness.
Attributes the fact that the POC analyst fails to connect to the team purely because of their class and not because they might be of a different culture etc...
Class and race are inextricably linked at the moment because of systemic inequalities in the past. That being said, as this country becomes majority non-white, things will change. As POC achieve and pass along generational wealth and folks continue to intermarry, the “Hamptons & Vail” crowd will be less rich white douchebags and more rich douchebags of all colors. Anyone who thinks a little affirmative action is going to undo hundreds of years of systemic discrimination is an idiot. The reality, albeit a sad and disheartening one, is that life just isn’t really fair right now and some things simply take time.
A nuanced point other commenters refuse to understand
We don't know the full story, therefore no discussion can be had.
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