RANT: Holy shit I'm scared, is Bernie Sanders going to win the nomination?
Considering that there are too many moderates still running in the Democratic party, I'm scared that the 2020 election would be Bernie vs. Trump.
I think most of you on this website would agree that socialism, at least Bernie's version of it, is a bad bad idea. And I suppose a significant portion of the wso members might disagree, but Trump's protectionist and isolationist crap is a bad bad idea IMO. I mean, look at my username?
But considering that pretty much a lot of young people support Bernie and let's be honest, Bernie is like Trump of the Democratic party - both are populists rambling on about some bat shit crazy ideas that will ruin lots of things for the country (and the world) but oh boy they sound great to some people.
I've met some Trump supporters. They all ramble on and on about their beliefs stating false evidence and calling others unpatriotic if they don't agree. I've met some Bernie supporters. They all ramble on and on about their beliefs stating false evidence and calling everyone dumb and sociopathic if they don't agree. They just don't seem to fucking listen to other opinions. Sample sizes were small but still, I'm noticing a pattern here.
If it comes to Sanders vs Trump, I am gonna lose faith in humanity. And I don't see moderate Democrats dropping out even though there are just too many of them running for the nomination. Biden is probably too pride to drop out. Klobuchar? Idk wtf she does but better drop out soon and let the moderate vote consolidate for Buttgieg.
Oh and it turns out that Bernie is also a protectionist. Maybe I should move to France or Germany or lobby for a law that forces presidential candidates to take an aptitude test in economics, ethics, and general critical thinking.
Anyways, fuck protectionism, fuck populism, fuck the rambling orange haired man, fuck the rambling white haired man, fuck orange hair and white hair supporters for refusing to develop their listening and critical thinking skills. Long live small governments and the free market economy. Lassez-faire with a sprinkle of "you can't do that now because that corrupts the environment or quality of living is now shit" is the way to go.
I agree with you. I do think that Bernie is the less dangerous option though. I do not support Bernie and I straight up hate Trump. I think they’re both unfit and horrible candidates. I always complain that choosing in elections is getting worse and worse.
Back to my main point: I just don’t believe Bernie will get anything done. I think it’ll be a near lame duck presidency. Maybe he’ll get some stuff done and we’ll see an increase in taxes and what not, I don’t think it’ll jump up to >60% or anything ridiculous. There’s always loopholes too. But I don’t think everyone will be stuck with a 90% tax rate and free everything for everyone. Sure, Bernie preaches about stuff like that. But I don’t think Congress will pass it. I’d personally rather see headlines about how POTUS failed to get new bill passed over and over rather than the ridiculous stupidity of Trump.
I think that’s kinda crazy to say a socialist would be good. You hate trump because he is an ass but you are essentially saying I know if bernies policies actually go thru it will kill the economy but I’m gonna vote him in and hope his policies don’t go through.
It's not like Trump's policies are any better... Just that the negative effects would take a little longer to appear because in the short term businesses are doing better.
I said his policies won’t go through, essentially meaning nothing will happen. That’s the whole point of my post. He will try and fail. Nothing will happen.
Edit: misread what you said. Duh. Yeah but I think Trump’s policies will kill the economy and the broader political environment at large. We will lose our allies and align our interests with those of vile people. I think both would be horrible if stuff gets done, I just think Bernie’s worst case isn’t as bad as Trump’s worst case. This is speculation though. Nobody is certain.
I see your point. But doesn't that depends on who controls the Congress?
Who is to say that the Democrats won't do what the Republicans did and just side with Bernie because they think that's what will win votes. After McCain passed away no one in the Republicans party is publically going against Trump. I could see something similar happening if Bernie gets elected, with Biden being the only one publically going against Bernie and everyone falling in line.
That and the fact that someone like AOC getting elected and gaining game really scares me. People who just claim outrageous things without any factual evidence behind and still get supporters.
I completely agree with you. I strongly dislike Bernie. I think he would be absolutely horrible in office and could cause a lot of damage that would take years to repair. I just think another four years of Trump is worse.
I’m fine with people disagreeing with me too. That’s what makes us American. I do question when people say Trump is the best thing ever and he should serve terms indefinitely... (Yes, I’ve heard that before)
A month and a half ago:
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/president-bernie-sanders-a-very-…
I fucking called this and up to this point Bernie has literally had the strongest primary performance of any Democrat in decades and WILL be the nominee unless he dies or something
Lots of words and zero focus on why this is happening. Boring.
What do you mean instead of focus on why this is happening?
It's pretty fucking obvious why it's happening. 1) people are fed up with income and wealth inequality in America. And other various things like Political correctness, environment going to shit, etc ... 2) Idiots like Trump and Bernie are just riding the wave and making it even bigger by provocating people. On one side you have Trump blaming illegal immigrants, globalization, and ultra liberals for all the terrible shit. On the other, you have socialists blaming corporations, capitalism, and conservatives.
It's a fucking pissing contest and it's disgusting.
Income inequality when in America even our poor people are considered rich. So what is are solution to really be so stupid where we put in socialism so we can all actually be poor together ?
However the left gets a point over the unaffordable cost of healthcare and education.
Yes. However poorly expressed, Trump has correct points on every single one of those. How did we end up with this?I agree with you. There’s a lot of wrong and a growing divide between Americans. Trump v Bernie is the ultimate representation of politics. We have extreme binomial distribution among left v right. Wealth inequality is insane. Frankly I have absolutely no clue how most Americans afford life. But I also don’t support taxing the wealthy to kingdom come. It’s complicated.
I remember reading this, “We got the politicians we deserve.” Think about it. Most Americans care for spectacle, drama, fake things, and entertainment value. We have Trump. The younger generations see the system is broken and want a whole revamp of the system. Many people see themselves as more intelligent than they actually are and don’t see how things affect each other. Kill off Wall Street, then those bankers won’t steal from me! But they don’t see how the prices of goods can skyrocket and fluctuate out of control, companies would collapse, etc. I enjoy shitposting about the lack of value of an IB Analyst as much as the next guy, but Wall Street truly is essential to American way of living.
Honestly it’s difficult to even fathom a solution. Everyone’s acting like toddlers screaming with their eyes closed and hands over their ears.
Whenever I hear people wanting to kill bankers or shut down Wall Street I think about what I told my analyst in ‘08.
People wanna live like this in their cars and big fckin' houses they can't even pay for, then you're necessary. The only reason that they all get to continue living like kings is cause we got our fingers on the scales in their favor. I take my hand off and then the whole world gets really fckin' fair really fckin' quickly and nobody actually wants that. They say they do but they don't. They want what we have to give them but they also wanna, you know, play innocent and pretend they have no idea where it came from. Well, thats more hypocrisy than I'm willing to swallow, so fck em. Fck normal people.
Oh also don't you understand what a rant is?
Going to throw my take on the origins of Sanders popularity: 1) 2008 crash and bailouts. It de-legitimized Wall Street at all levels (investment and commercial banks, hedge funds, rating agencies, insurance companies, everyone) while the bailouts legitimized government intervention. You can't tell to the average Joe that govt intervention is bad.... unless it's for the ''rich''. If you work in finance, you don't get to whine about it anymore. Anyone who thinks this was not going to bite back in the long run is delusional. 2) Already mentioned affordability of healthcare and education. I won't go into further details, however both Reps and Dems are heavily responsible for this. Either those costs come down or you'll get Sanders. 3) The long tail of Reagan crushing the left in the 80s, followed by the collapse of the Soviet Union. There was only one segment of American society that steadily rejected Reagan and that was the academia. Look back and most of the insults thrown by academics to Reagan are the same they throw to Trump voters: ignorant simpletons who don't know what's best for them. The academia reorganized its anti-capitalist agenda on cultural themes and since criticizing capitalism wasn't credible anymore,enter social justice, intersectionality while at the same time calling for a revolt against the ''patriarchy'' and ''white supremacism'' in the institutions. The whole purpose is indeed the destabilization of key institutions of society, starting with the Constitution. Universities are the training ground of communist activists hell bent on yet another disastrous revolution, because they ''know better'' as they went to the Ivy League. 4) The utter state of delusion of moderates, who since the 90s bought into this ''End of history'' tale. Clinton and co. thought that by allowing China to modernize by shipping the US production over there, then democracy would follow. Obviously that didn't happen but the intellectual class still clings to this idea. While chasing global governance they sold out American workers.
Altogether these factors are an unstoppable combination. You'll get Sanders or a successor, eventually.
Yeah public school education in the US stems from common core (the names might be different in other states). One of the main authors was Bill Ayers who was a former leader of "weather underground"; which was a socialist domestic terrorist organization in the US.
And a lot of this stems from the men of the Frankfurt school and their lieutenants. Cultural Marxism and the culture of critique.
I mean for gods sake Noel ignatiev literally said "we are going to bring a minority of people together in such a way as to make it impossible for the legacy of whiteness to reproduce itself"
There are plenty of quotes like this made by leftist academia, it's nothing new. Yet people like this are celebrated.
You have legitimate concerns about Sanders and Trump. We still have plenty of time to go before anyone has enough delegates to get the nomination. At the moment, I would support Bloomberg. He has the best bio of all the dems. He is highly intelligent, accomplished and philanthropic. I am not too concerned about his debating skills or some of his lewd comments.. I think he has a much better chance of beating Trump than Bernie.
If Bernie gets the nomination, the republicans will use his socialist ideas against him. To be blunt, I find Bernie's personal skills to bepretty bad. I guess he has appeal because he is offering a lot of free stuff. He has addressed two broken systems in the US: healthcare/insurance and higher education, both of which are unaffordable for many people. His views regarding drug companies are a little strange. Drug companies make a lot of money but at the same time, sell products that help consumers. I do agree with his view on the health insurance industry, as I just do not see how they are a useful middleman in the process. The doctors have issues issues with them and so do the people who buy health insurance.
Agreed, Bloomberg is the only voice of reason out there.
Just like Lloyd, i too find it easier to vote for Trump over Bernie
did you watch the debate (genuine question, not snarky)? I say that because I had a lot of faith in Bloomberg going in but wow he was an absolute train wreck.
Yes, I agree that Bloomberg seemed unprepared and underperformed. With that said, it was his first presidential debate while the others have been debating and competing for a while. Also, the rest of the candidates seemed to be focused on him and ganged up in him. That environment can’t be easy
I mean, we are a mixed democracy already, and I don't really think it's that bad to socialize some industries, having been born in the US and lived in the Nordics, they do somethings better, and some things worse.
I think social education has some repercussions, such as in Sweden for example trade schools are much more popular, education is much more rigorous, and only acceptance rates are much lower considering anyone can go.
I don't agree with how Bernie would do all of it, and that's more of my issue with him rather than what he views as issues. Politics in general is such a shitshow that if I like a moderate I should recognize he's probably bought and we'll keep status quo. Who is going to come into office and address the two biggest problems in the country, education and health care and provide a valid solution. I have yet to find one really.
We cannot have those policies work in the same way if you try then here. The population is far bigger here you would get a different result.
That's fine, it doesn't need to be replicated exactly the same way, but the issues have to be addressed in some way. It's pretty clear that there are problems here in these regards.
We could but we need to shut the fucking borders first. Universal healthcare and open borders doesn't work.
Decades ago a number of South American countries virtually copied the American constitution. It did not deliver a system equivalent to that of the US. This idea that if you copy policies from a country it'll deliver the same result needs to end.
That’s about the dumbest thing I have ever heard, we just going to ignor all of the research and history we have seen of when socialism has went to affect ?
The U.S has many socialized and de facto socialized (via regulation) industries, and they are all of America's worst industries in terms of cost and/or service. Banking, housing, health care, higher education have all been greatly harmed by government intervention.
Exactly. Most accurate comment on this thread
Hasn't the government been involved in higher education since the 60's? I agree the prices probably have increased as a result, but also the amount of people that find the capability to go to school in the first place has increased as well. Not great; pros and cons. Health care is not really that socialized, it's really a mix which makes it so much worse.
I'm not disagreeing that it could be a lot better or that it couldn't be done in a different economic system, but from the small sample sizes of the Nordics (which I agree can't be replicated in the same way in the USA) trounces the US healthcare system. And I pay less in overall expense here making about $100K/yr. As well as education, which is by far one of the best in the world, so I'm not sure if its because of the US government, but people are the happiest, they have access to the best lower education, and aren't scared of going broke over breaking a bone.
For all his endless scandals and chaotic administration trump has proven himself completely useless, in a good sense. The average joe just wants to be left alone. Bernie doesn't sound like the guy who will leave you alone. He is just going to try to give handouts to all the purple haired clowns that elected him and tax anything productive until it's dry. I'd rather have the devil i know...
Hard to deny that, I lean left but I would rather vote for Trump than Bernie.
Where is a real moderate did they die? We should have a large group of people identify as a group to send a message to the dems. Like we are voting for trump because you screwed us and gave us a socialist
Just gonna quote myself here... [quote="Milton Friedchickenman"] Yeah Trump turned the presidency into a reality show.
"On the next episode of The POTUS, president Trump fires his chief of staff... Again?" Cut to Donald Trump saying "You're fired!!!". "While Rex Tillerson looks for revenge." Cut to Tillerson saying "Drill, Drill baby! [Evil laughter]". "Mean while, Ivanka visits Canada and meets a handsome prime minister Trudeau". Cuts to Ivanka smiling and Trudeau while a romantic song plays... "But we all know that Jared is the jealous type! Stay tuned for The POTUS: The Orange Menace."
Previous Seasons of The POTUS include: The POTUS: "Oral" Fixation The POTUS: Daddy and I The POTUS: Black in White [\quote]
Had a boss say, look guys I’m not gonna tell you who to vote for butt all I’m saying is if Bernie gets president don’t be surprised if we need to lay people off if it looks like he will be able to but any of his policies into place.
In order for Bernie to put most of his policies in place, the senate would have to turn, which is not likely to happen. For me, between Trump and Bernie, my vote would be cast based on character. However, like I said previously, at this point, I would favor Bloomberg.
Talk to a Berniebro for once. They plainly state things like packing the Supreme Court until it passes whatever Sanders say. People who hate the system and want to destroy it will not respect the rules.
LMAO. Bernie has a been a lifelong useless person. He has praised and advocated on behalf of the worst regimes on planet Earth. Trump is a man of incredibly low character, and Bernie Sanders makes Trump look like George Washington.
trump’s tax plan literally fucked everyone in the middle class and his supporters are too dumb to agree
its amazing how Fox is so good at convincing working class Americans to vote against their own economic interests.
Fucked everyone in the middle class how?
Effective tax rate for the middle class went up. Middle class is now paying more tax while the middle upper and upper class are paying less tax. That's some backward shit right there.
Some thoughts on Bernie.
-Most Americans don't know how radical Bernie really is. Thus far, he has not been aggressively attacked and vetted, in large part because the Democrats don't want to alienate his supporters. Bernie is a lifelong socialist who throughout his adult life championed mass nationalization of industries and supported communist regimes in Soviet Union, Cuba, Nicaragua. This is beyond dispute, and there are plenty of records. Trump and the GOP will have a field day with oppo attacks against Bernie in the general.
-Bernie's current policies are absolute nuts. They include the following: 1) government takeover of healthcare in which 180 million Americans will be taken off of private plans and placed on an inferior government plan; Bernie's proposal is more radical than that of Scandinavian countries as they have a "hybrid" system, 2) green new deal and banning fracking, which will cripple the energy industry, raise energy prices, and make us dependent on the Middle East, weakening us economically and geopolitically, 3) on immigration, Bernie wants to decriminalize illegal entry (open borders), end deportations, eliminate ICE, and give free health insurance to illegal aliens, 4) give prisoners the right to vote, including cold blooded killers and rapists (imagine letting Dylann Roof and the Boston Marathon bomber vote from their prison cells; this is a GOP ad waiting to be made).
-I am hearing the argument that even if Bernie were elected President, he cannot "get much" done because Congress won't pass his legislations. This is an asinine argument. First, due to the unfortunate growth of the administrative state and the imperial presidency (that traces its roots back to Wilson and FDR), the President possesses enormous power to enact change. He appoints judges and all top level spots throughout the Executive branch. He can issue executive orders and directives that have profound policy implications. Bernie has already released a preliminary list of executive orders he wants to issue as President. In addition, Bernie has said explicitly that he wants to eliminate the legislative filibuster and use reconciliation to push through medicare for all and the green new deal. If the Democrats win back the Senate, there is a very good chance that this happens. Then, there is foreign policy, where the President has enormous powers. And Bernie is also a fiasco here.
-Trump vs. Bernie is an unfortunate but much needed battle. Ideologically, it is the sharpest contrast since Nixon vs. McGovern 1972 but probably much moreso since as liberal as McGovern was, he was not a f*cking socialist who supported communist regimes (he actually fought with valor in the Korean War). The reason we need this battle is that the Democrats have moved too far left, indulging every freakish element such as The Squad and their ilk. Socialism, anti-Americanism, identity politics, open politics, were allowed to not just fester but also to take control of the party's messaging and policy agenda. Capitalism vs. socialism, whether we will remain a free country, needs to be decided at the ballot box, and hopefully, the far left will be crushed and relegated to the dustbin of history.
Open borders, not open politics. Big typo on my part. For some reason, the edit feature isn't working.
Asinine is the correct word. The idea that a President Sanders would have no power to enact his radical views is, well, asinine. The presidency on foreign policy has, for all intents and purposes, limitless power. The presidency on immigration policy has close to limitless power. The Senate can check judicial appointments, but in practice, outside of Supreme Court nominees, the Senate has acted as a rubber stamp historically. The Senate election map is also more favorable to Dems in 2020 than in 2018 and 2016, so there is at least decent odds that a President Sanders has a Democrat Senate. As you point out, executive orders can be used to enact all kinds of policies.
Here's the reality--if you vote for Bernie Sanders you are voting for a lifelong communist. If he implements his policies, it's not a mistake and you shouldn't be surprised. You own it, you who voted for him.
Sure. Anyone who has a different viewpoint than yourself is asinine. No need to listen, digest, and explore. Yup, it's just asinine and communist. You're totally right.
So you would move to France or Germany which follow essentially the exact model Bernie is trying to move the U.S. towards?
Bernie and Trump are symptoms. Symptoms of decades of misguided monetary policy, loosening of long-standing financial regulations, widespread regulatory capture, rampant inflation in health care and education, trade policy which has gutted the US manufacturing sector, a foreign policy based on a mountain of lies that costs us trillions, massive moral hazard for corporations in the financial sector in the aftermath of the crisis... you could go on and on an on. If anything is going to make you lose faith in humanity, it should be that these policies were all promoted by people who would ace whatever aptitude tests you are thinking of throwing at them.
If you want free markets and small governments, you are going to have to address the above issues at some point. Trump and Bernie may have very different solutions, but they are some of the few talking about any of these issues.
I say France because of Macron. I hoenstly don't know how much he got done. Germany, I have no freaking clue but at least their economy seems solid.
I think you might be surprised by many elements of the German economy. Putting aside healthcare and much higher marginal taxes on income and property, most large German firms are required to allocate a certain number of board seats to employee reps. Imagine the number of strokes that would happen to the Walmart or Amazon board members if similar requirements were mandated.
The optics on Macron are rendered tricky by how confrontational French stakeholders are. He is trying to move France a tiny step of the way towards a smaller government model, mainly by simplifying the pension system and employment laws. But France is a heaven filled of people who think they live in hell. He honestly is not much further right than Bernie or Warren.
Germany's post-crisis success relies to an important degree on idiosyncratic factors. East Germany's integration brought in a flood of cheap workers in the early 90s. The Hartz IV laws (a loosening of work legislation not unlike what Macron has tried to do) and major work on collective bargaining then exerted massive deflationary pressures on German wages which the ECB conveniently solved by running interest rates too low for too long (common theme) and goosing exports to the European periphery with a flood of cheap credit.
When the chickens came home to roost after the crisis, it looked like Germany would be fine as long as the Greeks got smoked. Problem is the same problem happened in Italy and you can't treat the third largest sovereign debt market the same way as you did Greece. Deutsche Bank is now a huge albatross on the Germans' neck and the euro simply cannot catch a break the way Trump harps on Powell, pinning Draghi and now Largarde into a corner.
My advice if you are worried about Bernie, buy some way otm puts on some stuff. If he wins and the market implode, you'll have something to show for it and taxes probably won't change until 2021. If the market stays strong, what were you worried about?
Biggest threat to free speech and democracy isn’t Russia trying to influence opinion with fake Facebook accounts. It’s the people who would tell you that such an act is “interference” with an election and that “misinformation” should be regulated.
Biggest threat to free markets isn’t inequality or big banks. It’s the people who will look at a broken, highly regulated system that has never been a free market - health care and education are examples - and tell you that those systems are proof of market failure rather than government failure and that they need more, not less regulation.
If freedom is what you care about, there isn’t single candidate today who is pushing your agenda. Your only hope isto vote for the guy who at least isn’t actively working to dismantle freedom by telling you that you government will fix your healthcare, your news feed and everything else about your life.
All the familiar Democrat bashers in this thread:![a](a href="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERfEcnVXsAAFzCT?format=jpg&name=900x900">https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERfEcnVXsAAFzCT?format=jpg&name=900x900</a)
90% of you Trump-reluctant conservatives would not vote for Amy Klobuchar after months of watching her campaign. You'd find something - anything - to latch onto and talk yourselves back into Trump. I’d love for the Dems to nominate anyone but Bernie, but you guys are the boy who cried wolf one too many times. Yawn.
Well I may not agree with all your points but atleast you're not a broke leftist college student - you'll probably end up paying a ton more in taxes as a Director in IB. So SB just for that.
The issue is all the countries with universal healthcare have much much higher taxes on the middle class, along with a higher VAT. Capital gains is also lower in many european countries (Cali has a ridiculous 38% cap gains tax once you include fed+niit+state). And since healthcare is much more expensive in the US, you cannot generate the income Sanders/other dems are proposing without taxing the middle class more. And I'm pretty against a wealth tax because of all the unintended effects it could potentially have on the economy.
Let's start controlling costs before blindly taxing people and ending up at square one. I'd happily pay more taxes if shit actually gets fixed.
I actually can't think of anything more offensive to me personally--to my own personal well being--than Bernie Sanders forcibly taking away my private health insurance that I pay about $5-10k/year for and that I really love and making me pay $20-30,000 per year for health care run by DMV employees. I mean it without hyperbole--I can't think of a more vile piece of public policy than the conceit of a washed-up hippie thinking that he and his bureaucrats could manage the entire health care system of 330 million Americans spread out over an entire continent + Alaska, Hawai'i, Puerto Rico, and Guam.
Spot on. And I can actually think of something worse. I follow development of new treatments pretty heavily for both professional and personal reasons. We are on the verge of developing so much. I don’t even know where to begin but in the last month alone I’ve learned about huge progress on several cancers, blood sugar control, arterial elasticity and neuroprotection. Order of magnitude stuff, not just the usual “oh the marvels of modern medicine” type stuff.
The problem is that the only thing funding these breakthroughs is the fact that the world’s largest economy is also the world’s only full payer. If US goes to single payer, projected revenues for any project drop through the floor. Not just for the obvious reason that a single payer will dictate a low price, but also the follow-on effects of a bureaucracy not giving a fair shake to new “unproven” therapies despite their obvious promise. Bean counters don’t do expected value. Not their game.
Bernie and frankly anyone else proposing any variant of socialized medicine - yes that includes a public option - will take a decade off your life expectancy and health span if you’re under 30 today and making the sort of income that most of y’all are making. You are the people who have the education and resources to take advantage of the quantum leap in health innovation that is in the early innings right now, and they will gladly snatch that opportunity away from you.
And the white knight closet Bernie bro strikes again. FYI to everyone reading this, this guy is probably in the top 1% most radical liberal posters I've ever seen on this forum, and pretty much is the talking mouthpiece of Bernie. Don't pay attention to him as he's not capable of rational thinking but just wants to spew what his hyper liberal buddies feed him
LOL, "radical liberal" is me consistently saying Trump is an unqualified, unserious moron and that growing inequality and mass shootings are bad for our country - and that a candidate advocating for unrealistic policies to provide everyone with healthcare and education is by far morally superior to the other guy advocating for unrealistic policies to kick all the brown people out of the country.
I challenge you to find a single post where I've outright praised Bernie or even Hillary. I'm not thrilled the Dems may give us our second squishy candidate, but I don't fall for the both-sideism false equivalency.
That’s a bold assumption with no evidence.
Nah, don't move to France/Germany. Join us in Asia and throw back a few Coronas.
It's totally untrue that a single-payer national healthcare system costs more than private-market healthcare, and that all nations that have public healthcare have higher tax rates. A single payer healthcare system allows for economies of scale in all aspects and removes the for-profit motive from the system.
2 good examples that I've been a part of ... Singapore and Hong Kong, both with 15-17% tax rates, and free national healthcare, The US has the single highest spend on healthcare of any nation BECAUSE of its fragmented, inefficient healthcare system, and for-profit interest groups all trying to maximize profits often at patients' expense. And US has some of the world's worst healthcare outcomes. Nearly every other developed nations has public healthcare and pays a small fraction of what US does. And many have lower taxes. Your point is demonstrably and empirically wrong.
I'm on shitty in-flight wifi at the moment but here's just some of the nations that have single-payer free public healthcare. Many have lower tax rates than US. Prove to me why the US - a far wealthier nation than most - can't get it's act together for this basic necessity.
Australia Austria Bahrain Belgium Brunei Canada
Cyprus Denmark Finland France
Germany
Greece Hong Kong Iceland Ireland
Israel Italy
Japan
Kuwait Luxembourg Netherlands New Zealand Norway Portugal Singapore Slovenia South Korea Spain
Sweden Switzerland United Arab Emirates United Kingdom
Source: New York Dept. of Health
Americans still think they're the greatest country in the world when most of these countries have a better education, infrastructure, public transportation, upward mobility, quality of life and healthcare.
But if you say otherwise, you're "unpatriotic" and a "communist" and you hate America.
39th best place in the world to raise kids. USA! USA! USA!
you nailed it. 100% agree. If you're middle or lower class in USA, you're boned. Gotta work like mad just to keep health insurance for your family, got to have get expensive college and grad schools so you can even be employable, got to struggle to get your kids into halfway decent public schools so that they don't start learning to read in the 4th grade. The USA is a dumpster fire when it comes to providing for the basic needs of its citizens.
I love America. I love its ideals, the people, the culture. America is awesome in many ways. But I gotta call it like I see it, as I watch how America repeatedly fails to provide even the basic necessities to the populace. Meanwhile other countries where I've lived / continue to live do SO MUCH BETTER (Israel, China, HK, Singapore).
And our politicians look us in our eyes and tell us lies like "we've got the best healthcare system in the world" or "we've got the best education system in the world" and we're supposed to believe it when the opposite is true. We're not even a top 30 in most of these things.
Free rider problem. Already explained to you above. You just don't want to hear the truth.
yup, we're the only ones with that problem, and there's no solution - oh except that everyone else has figured it out! But nope, not us.
If you're referring to foreigner free-rider issues, there are plenty of mechanisms to address. In HK you can't get access to the public health system unless you're there as a resident (have working visa, or permanent residence) or a qualified work program. Singapore limits access to free healthcare to the same.
If you're referring to general population free-ridership, well everyone else has learned to keep healthcare costs low through a single payer system, and it all works out fine. Yes, always some limited free-ridership, but you can also place access limits there too. USA currently has massive free ridership, so let's not pretend the current system prevents free ridership because it actually encourages it.
Hey bro, I DO know what I'm speaking about. FYI I've worked in healthcare PE for several years. "About 40% of my full time job is understanding the current landscape of healthcare treatments. " Wonderful . **100% of my job **is spent studying healthcare treatments. Do you spend your time on biopharma or medtech? What's your specializations? Feel like discussing the finer points of orthopedic treatments, or the US orphan-drug policies? Happy to oblige. I was also pre-med and spent many, many hours time working in the ER, NICU, and CCU at UCLA Santa Monica Hospital, and at UC Riverside.
I take your comment of "For you to say "oh nobody needs that newfangled stuff, they just need a dentist" is the hallmark of someone who speaks without knowledge" and throw it right back at you.
My point stands - not that someone needs a dentist per se, but that what matters most for the healthcare of a broader population is access to good primary care practice, (inclusive of dental and vision), access to vaccines and access to preventative care. If you read my comments as "no one needs newfangled stuff they need a dentist" it's a shortcoming of your reading comprehension. My point stands that affordable access to basic care is key. All day long as a growth capital investor I see solutionism being thrown at us - companies who are asking for money for cutting edge stuff. It's cool, but if you really want to care for the broader population, that's not what moves the needle.
Because I WAS there in the ER, when guys came in every day with sever infections because they tried to deal with their wound at home, out of fear of the expense of seeing a doctor. I observed very clearly the poor state of the community's health because they didn't have access to basic care or preventative medicine.
You said that if Bernie gets elected, people can take a decade off of their lifespan. I'm sure it's hyperbole, but it's also grade A bullshit. The foundations of a healthy society are access to the basics. Cutting edge medicine helps, sure, but a move to a single payer system does not mean no innovation. If you want to keep the sparks of new innovation in medicine going, that's a whole other nuanced discussion, which encompasses FDA new-drug / novel treatment / medical device regimes (which BTW were improved under Obama) and you fund cutting edge basic research at the university level, and make it easier for private sector to leverage that research.
You can take back your "if you don't know don't talk" comment, and eat it.
Adjusted for murders and accidental death, the U.S. has the highest life expectancy in the world. I've posted about this numerous times in the last 5 or so years.
I must have missed your earlier postings. Please re-post, and show validation and studies. Thanks. I'm no expert but every study I've seen recently shows a decline in American lifespans since 2010. Here's an interesting article on CNN, which is summarizing a study by JAMA. I'll link to both, and am quoting below.
JAMA- Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017
US life expectancy is still on the decline. Here's why
Health System Tracker - How does U.S. life expectancy compare to other countries?
And yes, I did read what you wrote and that you're netting out murders. I'm sincerely intrigued. Please repost your work.
[some interesting quotes] "The US had been making steady progress. Life expectancy increased by nearly 10 years over the last half century -- from 69.9 years in 1959, to 78.9 years in 2016. But the pace of this increase slowed over time, while other high income countries continued to show a steady rise in life expectancy. After 2010, US life expectancy plateaued and in 2014 it began reversing, dropping for three consecutive years -- from 78.9 years in 2014, to 78.6 in 2017. This is despite the US spending the most on health care per capita than any other country in the world."
" the U.S. ranks as the lowest life expectancy at birth among large and wealthy countries."
The US has the highest quality of live even our poor people are rich compared to the rest of the world.
I’m happy with either trump or Bernie. Thank god they are not Hillary or Warren.
It's crazy to me how baseball fans can see the Astro's actions as being harmful to the game of BB but similar ones can't see how Trump's disregard for presidential decorum isn't harmful to the nation.
It's interesting that so many Americans are vehemently opposed to single-payer healthcare, arguing that they'll get a much more inferior system, and these universal systems literally sentencing people to death via "death panels" or whatever the talking points were a decade ago).
Could it be that a lot of Americans are getting overtreated? Hell, for the vast majority of illnesses and ailments, you don't need to get treated RIGHT NOW. Did you know that in most western countries, there's no such thing as a "yearly checkup"? And yet, life expectancy is identical - many times long - than what America has.
But if you really want to get treatment the next day, you can go to private clinics, no problem. It's gonna cost you more, absolutely, but how many times a year do you really go to the doctor or hospital? I'm in my 30s, and it's 5 years since my last visit.
People also argue that they want freedom, and the freedom of choice. And those are totally legit arguments...but at the same time, if you're a regular Joe who gets his healthcare through employment, that's also a bit of a limiting factor.
All in all, Bernie is not catering to upper middle class people, he's catering to the people that are experiencing getting squeezed more and more, without anything new in return.
100% support and agree. I don't want all my choices to be bad. I would rather just have one or two good options not a myriad shitty ones. I like my healthcare to be good, affordable, and accessible. And I get that in Asia, and am grateful for it.
Despite having full private healthcare thru my employers, I have always been grateful that the public option has been there. Why? Because there's been times when I've been between jobs. And because some private companies insure the employee but not their families. So for my wife and baby - these aren't covered by insurances, and I'm damn grateful that there's nearly-free coverage. And I'm thoroughly grateful my inlaws in China who are retired are covered now when they need it most. And I'm very worried about my elderly retired mom in the US who is currently being bled dry by the American healthcare system. I
Healthcare is just like firefighting and policework. We as a society get together and pool resources to provide this together, reaping economies of scale, because in the end we all want and need it. Healthcare is a life need, not a luxury good.
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