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Career Resources
Cornell. Money is simply a means to an end; if you can go to an Ivy right now, don't even give it a second thought.
Transfer
I have to agree here...that brand and network will stick with you for a long while and is worth the $80k in my opinion. Plus, more doors will open since you can tap the alumni network once you are there.
Ivys are value, but so is the FV of 80k invested at say 8%.I hate the idea of being indebted when I have free college... It's a really tough decision.
true, but you are also may be discounting the difference between having an undergrad degree from Cornell on your CV for the rest of your career...which will likely be very very long.
this is a really personal decision and it really comes down to branding yourself. You can certianly be incredibly successful from CUNY or any college for that matter, or even if you don't go to college.
My point is only that Cornell will make the path toward any job much, much easier for the rest of your life. I'd take the bet that having that security (of even having a job in a pretty shitty economy) and network (for chance to land the "better jobs") is worth well more than $80,000 over your lifetime.
Here's a slice of life from a 24-year old guy who was in your same position at age 20 (me).
I had the option of going to a semi-target and paying $50K for the two years, versus going to a state school here in NY and paying $0. I chose the state school and decided to "bust my ass to get it done, no matter what it takes."
Worst decision of my life. Who knows; you might be way smarter or way more hard working than I. But if relevant input is what you're asking us for, it doesn't get more relevant than that. Given the option to go back in time and do it again, I'd go back far enough to ace my ITBS exams and get into an elite HS just so that I could be a stronger candidate for an Ivy. And I'd pay the $100K or whatever they asked.
Secondly, a degree from Cornell will yield far more than 8% over the course of your life. Actually, this second point is probably the most relevant of all.
Edit:
You sound like the kind of person who doesn't like to unnecessarily spend money. I was the same way (still am). Believe us, this is an expense that is extremely well justified.
I don't think you can just bank on getting into a top MBA with an "OK job" as an alternative to Cornell. You have the opportunity now, so take it.
This. Where you get accepted for an MBA will depend largely on the job you are in when you apply, which will depend largely on where you did your undergraduate. No brainer, move to Cornell and don't look back.
You'd only be investing $40k since the other $40k is in loans...but yes, cost of capital, blah blah.
I have a similar story to the above. I stuck with my non-target undergrad when I had the chance to go to a top target. I eventually did break into a top IB (with backbreaking networking and many many sleepless nights leading up to interviews), also did buyside and got into a top MBA program which I will be attending this September. Even with the hindsight of my relative success up now, I still regret not attending the target ugrad when I had the chance.
Why?
redacted
1) It DOES add more credibility, whether you like it or not. 2) I know a few people from the target I passed up -- and their network is about 1000x better than mine. Where as I have developed friendships with people at a few other IB/PE/F500 firms through my own networking, the guys from the target school had these from the get-go.
Regarding your internship worries -- you have no internship experience, right? Well, would you rather be applying to jobs from Cornell or CUNY?
remove
definitely transfer. 80k is not worth starting your professional and adult career at a disadvantage. Not only will you more than make up the difference shortly due to a better career, but you will make higher caliber friends. Trust me I see the difference first hand now that Im at a top MBA program after attending a City school
You don't think Baruch (let's say for free) was a good deal?
$80k seems like a lot of money to you right now, but it won't after some time. Go to Cornell.
Okay, this is my last comment and I'll leave you alone lol.
Here's what will happen in either situation:
CUNY: You get in and start hustling from day 1 for an internship. You bust your ass to get something during the year, and by doing so pit yourself against all the NYU and Columbia kids looking for internships during the year. Believe me: these kids are like ants in the NYC internship market. They're fucking everywhere. Regardless of whether you get an internship for the year, you'll then have to hustle even more to get a junior SA position. This will be immensely difficult coming from a CUNY school with no experience, and 1 internship usually isn't enough to do the trick coming from a non-target. Worst case scenario, you graduate with one internship (or two) and now you have a CUNY degree. Your credentials will not be hard to outmatch.
Cornell: You get in and focus on that 4.0 GPA from day one. Put in some good hustle to make your resume look good, and network for a summer internship. Perhaps OCR won't yield anything since your peers will likely be better prepared, but you can give it a shot anyway. Worst case, you find an internship for the summer through networking and some footwork. You then graduate the next year with an Ivy degree and an internship under your belt. That qualifies you instantly for at least another internship at a MM shop or, if you hustle enough, a full-time gig.
Later on down: you can either be an applicant with X experience with a CUNY degree, or you can be an applicant with that same X experience (though probably better) with an Ivy degree. Which "version" of you do you think gets hired?
I only keep coming back because I would hate anyone to make the same mistake I did. I went to a non-target against the advice of an MD at the place I was interning at at the time; I will never forget his advice in retrospect.
Okay I'm done lol.
Thanks a lot for your perspective; it's very much appreciated. I've spoken to a lot of disgruntled Baruch grads...Would your logic change if I plan on getting an MBA after two years of work experience? Kind of trying to save some money up and rebrand?
MBA at a M7, I assume I can get solid grades and decent experience at a small shop and if I get super lucky at a BB. I'm honestly not that interested in IB long term, more in asset management, but gotta pay your dos before one can move to the buy-side..
In retrospect I would 100% leave Baruch with Free tuition IF i had a transfer offer from Cornell. Dont get me wrong, Its a fine school but 80k is nothing in the long run. You are comparing a honda to a maserati here.
If you don't transfer, WSO gets 50 free kicks to your nuts and I get the first kick,
Thank you for articulating this so well lol. Also, I call second kick.
Seriously. LOL'ed and SB'ed.
OP,
you have a plethora of certified users (who are currently or were previously working in the industry) TELLING you to do one thing, yet you're not listening. As Chris Tucker once famously said in Rush Hour, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF OUR MOUTHS?
Here's a personal story: I went to a top 5 public undergrad. I really didn't want to have any debt before I graduated. So what did I do? I worked during my undergrad years. My grades suffered, but I graduated with less than $10k in debt. My tuition wasn't $80k, but it was at least half of that. However, I realized now that money isn't as big of an issue. I really wish I had focused on school instead of just working through classes because I realized the value of having great grades and actually coming from somewhere that's reputable.
Surely you're thinking, Jim Simons came from SUNY! Well, unfortunately, kid, judging from you flip-flopping on this decision, you ain't no Jim Simons. Sorry!
This is as close of a decision as going all-in preflop with pocket aces. You are dealt a great hand. Are you going to take it?
Oh and I read that you want to go to top MBA...let's do some math. I think the odds of you getting into a reputable MBA program increases significantly (as well as your scholarship opportunities) if you graduated even from a lower-tier ivy like Cornell. Try calculating the NPV of that. You're being sent on a trajectory that you weren't really close to before.
CompBanker kindly detailed in his decision on why he's going back to school, despite the fact that he's already had an opportunity of what many post-MBA guys are vying after. Why? Margin of safety. Think about that.
Called third kick btw.
Understood thanks for the help...Btw, pretty sure Simons went to MIT and Berkley, not SUNY..
Coming from New York I can't begin to tell you how many friends, and how many friends of friends, chose one of the CUNY schools over higher-tiered schools and got straight-rejected from every bank they went to. I'm not saying that it WILL happen to you, but it COULD.
Just make it easier for yourself, and transfer.
Is this for real? I just graduated from a T30 (not as good as Cornell) and there is a kid with a 3.8 from Branch transfer in. Btw I will get a third kick.
more like ragstorags -- am i right here fellas?
So much quality content in this thread LOL. +1
Yeah, I'm definitely above mediocre MM 'gigs as well, Goldman or GTFO
For 80k, essentially lol. Is a MM gig hard to get from a non/semi-target like Baruch?
The kids who got FO gigs at said banks from Baruch had really really really really really really really really really strong resumes. I cannot emphasis how strong their resumes were. Not only were more than half part of the honors college (Macaulay honors), but were part of a really competitive program at Baruch whose sole purpose is to get kids FO jobs at banks (about 30 gets get in per year and you have to apply as a sophomore).
Yes, getting a GREAT job from Baruch is possible, but don't expect similar results to the guys you mentioned if you do not have a really strong resume. Did I mention that those kids had really strong resumes?
Haha, well, if it changes anything, I'm part of the honors college and plan to join that program too (you can get in as a Junior). I'm really not wasting everyone's time. I am genuinely on the fence.
Planning is good, but what happens if you don't get in? Then what? You said you don't have strong work experience. I am willing to bet that a lot of the people who apply to that program do, they also have great grades and leadership positions. When you transfer in, you won't have that. How do you plan to compete against those kids? Do yourself a favor and go to Cornell or else you'll be playing the what if game the rest of your life. $80,000 is not worth playing the what if game.
What about the "what if game" I play when I'm unemployed or at a MM job from Cornell? I'll always be thinking, maybe I could have gotten this all for free...I would love to hear @IlliniProgrammer's ideas..The dude unabashedly bashes the ivys...The consensus on here, and from the bankers I've spoken to, seems to be to do it, even without work experience, so I'm still leaning towards transferring, but I am not 100% convinced and am basically looking for someone to make an extremely powerful argument one way or the other.
All of WSO has just been collectively trolled....
Mother fucker, transfer your ass. You'll thank us 10 years down the road, if not 5 years down the road once you have all your debt paid off and making bank.
Call 4th kick.
LMAO
I vote to make this thread of the year.
OP, you've got various professionals who have been in your shoes and/or know people in your position, kids in your shoes, kids who know peers in your shoes, even the owner of this website, ALL telling you that it's a clear choice.
BELIEVE US. $80K IS PENNIES LONG-TERM. Not even; 2-3 years out from graduation it'll be nothing.
If you land a MM job coming from Cornell, you'll be able to move up into a BB job or better. If you land a MM job coming from Baruch, consider yourself lucky. Likewise with the MBA - applying to MBA from Cornell makes you a natural candidate, applying from Baruch makes you a "non-traditional candidate" or whatever the hell they call non-targets in MBA admit.
This logic can't be difficult to follow. Stop trying to justify the cost savings.
THERE IS NO COST SAVINGS, THE SAME WAY THERE IS NO SPOON. You see $80K now, you'll see a brand-fucking new life later (unless you go to Baruch, in which case you'll just see a slightly better life).
Please, do the right thing. Every moment you hesitate to transfer to Cornell, some poor non-target kid gets wait-listed.
so...you've heard the opinions of many...and you're waiting for the opinion of a single user to make up your mind? IP's a great poster, but he's only one opinion.
just reached out to Illini-programmer to get his opinion as well.
This isn't even a "majority" right now...we are all in unaminous consent...which if you've been on WSO for a while, you know how rare that is.
Not sure if this is serious or not...
How do you feel about $80k in debt?
If the question leaves you with a sick feeling, transfer to Baruch and bang out a 4.0.
Otherwise take Cornell.
As an undergrad I would have taken Baruch.
With 20/20 hindsight that I would have landed a job at a bank, I would have taken Cornell.
With my experience and my wisdom but without knowing that I could land a job in industry, I'm not sure what I would have done. I would probably have run a stochastic model given my most conservative reasonable estimates of landing a job coming out of both programs as well as career outcomes.
If you get a banking job out of Baruch, not having Cornell will still impede your career growth for the first 3-5 years, but not more than 10-20% in research or S&T, and very little further after that. It will be more pronounced in IBD and less so in S&T.
So I'm a little more borderline on this- I don't think this is a totally clear cut decision in favor of Cornell. As an experienced Wall Streeter with the knowledge that things eventually worked out for me, I'd have taken Cornell. But you don't know that. So I'd approach this rationally, develop your best estimates as to the 1 year, 5 year, and ten year outcomes and probabilities from both choices, and make your decision based on that. Consider options such as getting a graduate degree or a double major, as well as positive and negative outcomes for the finance job market.
You guys laugh, but this is a $80k two year decision. I literally developed a stochastic state model for choosing an internship last Spring to arrive at a decision. That model actually changed the decision I was going to make because It caused me to realize that another choice gave me more optionality than I had realized. So there could be some value in applying a model to real life decisions, especially a case like this where you're dealing with an optionable situation with some uncertainty.
Start at the beginning, write out the potential outcomes of each decision with probabilities. Then when you get to 10 years, assign utilities to each outcome. Then work your way back to find the optimal decision at each point and the expected utility at each point.
TLDR: Us experienced folks have a survivorship bias that would favor Cornell over the less risky . Build a stochastic model for this, sort of like a binomial option pricing tree to figure out the right course of action.
wow, surprised you really think this is even close. We're not talking a top engineerying state school program vs. Cornell, we're talking Baruch vs. Cornell for Wall St. and career prospects.
Clearly, he's already leaning toward staying at Baruch because of the fear of investing in himself and his brand which he will regret later.
He can do binomial and option pricing trees all day long, but based on his comments so far, he clearly wouldn't be pricing the "utility" properly in each year, especially in IB where your brand and alumni connections matter a whole lot.
I'd just like to point out to the OP that Illini is probably one of the most conservative posters in the 7 year history of WSO and he STILL says:
Ok, but he's not going for S&T, he's going for IB front office...what do you think his probablity of landing any banking position is coming from Baruch that has placed a handful of FO position in its history, or Cornell which places a big group every single year?
I'd argue he's about 3x as likely just based on the name on his resume.
In a perfect meritocracy of a world, sure, it may only be "10-20%", but in reality it is more like 200-300% less likely he could get an equivalent job coming out of Baruch.
Us experienced folk (like yourself?) have survivorship bias so we favor Cornell, yet he is viewing Cornell as the risky option...
Shit... go to both.
Patrick you're ignoring basis risk and optionality here.
If you can't get IBD, you take S&T or research. Or maybe senior year you decide 100 hour weeks aren't for you. My expertise is S&T/Research/quant analytics, so those are the data points I can post.
I would also raise the point that having better financial solvency gives OP the option at grad school if he thinks he can get in and he has the math and Programming coursework. I know guys who've done Cornell ORFE and landed in IBD; I also know a lot of MIT MFin people wind up there too.
I just see a great deal of optionality in not having $80k in student loans. Cornell is probably worth it here, but you guys are ignoring the optionality, are making the decision knowing you were destined for IBD with no chance of failure from the right program (this may not be true for OP's situation), and you may not be as conservative as this kid is with money.
If you factor those things in, my gut tells me that Cornell is probably the right answer but its closer than you think, and running a basic probabilistic model on this could be helpful.
I am posting from an IPhone. If I have time this evening I'd like to flesh this out some more.
I would prefer to do equity research than IB actually. I am slightly worried the hours in IB aren't for me and would rather gain a skill-set that teaches me how to evaluate stocks. I won't need the high salary of IB if I come from Baruch too. Yes, I am very conservative with my family's money (40k) and my future income (40k) Regarding finance programs, I've taken some advanced math and programming classes, but not enough to make me competitive for the top schools. I didn't want to risk my GPA at a CUNY.
Illini, appreciate the response. I don't think I'm ignoring basis risk when you take into account that a degree is not a trading position..it is an investment in your brand and network for your ENTIRE life. You could also easily make the argument that his optionality coming out of Cornell is also much higher. With alums across not just FO IB, he would also be MUCH more likely to get a job in ER out of Cornell. Sure, he will have debt, but if he can't get FO IB, he will still be able to get a better job - other things being equal.
I think what you and the OP are ignoring here is massive advantage you get coming from an Ivy across ALL job interviews. You guys are comparing apples to oranges by saying..."well if he only wants ER" and not banking. Do you know how incredibly competitive it is to get an ER position?...do you know how much harder it is to get coming from Baruch vs. Cornell? Again, it is not 10-20% harder, I woudl argue it's 2x-3x harder, other things being equal. So to the OP that is trying to move the needle in the argument y all of a sudden saying you want ER (again, to make yourself feel better), it is still a no brainer to take Cornell because you have a MUCH better chance at actually landing that job or any relatively competiive job to get.
In what world would he ever have a better shot at landing any job coming out of Baruch vs. Cornell? None. So I'll ask you, what is really the safer option? Going into some debt to ensure the best possible position given your networking and job seeking skills, or just to hope you can overcome a huge disadvantage to stay out of a minimal amount of debt (when compared to your lifetime earnings)?
If you were saying you want to just go work in a back office position and don't have much ambition, then sure, stay at Baruch. OP, maybe you want to change what you are targeting to make yourself feel better about not taking this opportunity?
Look, I'm all for finding merit, for hiring the non-target kid that shows promise. The world DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY. Take the advantage and run with it.
I'm done with this thread. I can't stand people who look for answers to validate their positions and when 10/10 people tell them to make the other decision (notice, Illini still said take Cornell), they still won't help themselves. Sick
I know you would rather not spend $40k of your family's money, but if you truly want to act in their best interests, I'd like to get their perspective.
Is this a situation where your family has $2 million saved for retirement or $500k saved? In one circumstance this is a serious hardship for them- and we should spend their money as conservatively as you spend yours- in the other circumstance, if they'd like to see you graduate from Cornell, maybe it's worth it for them.
So if this is a hardship for them, we should treat it as going $80k into debt. If not, while its important to be a good steward of your family's money, there's nothing wrong with saying that this is different than a college student going out and borrowing $80k to pay for school. It is a college student borrowing $40k for school and in the most conservative analysis, spending $40k of his own money. We are still having you be a very good steward of your parents money, but if your parents are probably going to be ok financially, we're adjusting your marginal utility of a dollar since you don't have to go as heavily into debt.
Patrick I do get your point, but if he gets a Wharton MBA or a Princeton MFin that will probably change his brand as much as Cornell undergrad will. Perhaps more. The lack of student debt (if he is borrowing $80k) leaves that (potential) door open.
If he's only going $40k into debt for Cornell, that changes things a little and leaves room for an MS if he needs it. I think this adds significantly to the likelihood that a probabilistic decision tree would favor Cornell, but there's no substitute for analysis.
I guess the only other point that hasn't been discussed is that it's hard to get leadership roles in clubs and develop a GPA and recruit at Cornell in one semester. I don't think this would leave him worse off for BB recruiting than at Baruch, but it may not provide the same immediate recruiting benefit as having been on campus for three semesters let alone five. So he could be at a bit of a disadvantage to the average student on campus.
I think you guys have covered the upside and average case fairly well. And I think I've gotten all of the points that would favor Baruch.
You can still bias a decision tree, but it beats making a decision based on gut instinct. I think our guts largely agree but its still worth the effort to make sure we haven't missed something. If I get out of work at a reasonable hour, lets build the model. I want a rational decision; you guys want a rational decision; I think the answer is Cornell with 60-70% confidence, but I think this is still interesting and debatable enough to build a decision tree and probably get this to 90% confidence one way or the other.
Ok, agreed on the rebranding part from the Wharton MBA, except that your undergraduate school plays a large role in graduate admissions as well...so again, Cornell is the safer play there. Don't think that the admissions committee won't look at your application differently when they see Baruch vs Cornell?
And taking out a $40k loan and working for ~3-4 years will mean he shoudl be able to afford an MBA if he is looking into IB or ER (assuming he is smart and saves some). It's not like if he takes out this loan, he is buried in $200k in debt going to work for a non-profit. so he can't afford an MBA.
Agree that the leadership roles may be tough jumping straight into Cornell, but he should be able to start networking with Cornell alums immediately, or as soon as he puts it on his LinkedIn = most important thing.
Finally I would just add that this is a 19 year old kid making an $80k decision. And it is starting to look like the decision is turning in favor of him doing somethibg really really scary- switching schools, making new friends, adjusting to a new campus. Lets cut him some slack.
All I'm going to ask is that if I'm going to do the work of building the decision tree and if it favors Cornell, that the debate about whether this is a good career or financial decision kind of comes to an end. You may decide you prefer your own campus and friends more. You may decide that Ivy Leaguers are douchebags. But you won't fight us on the view that Cornell is probably the better career and financial move.
Illini, I really appreciate your thoughtful responses. Finally, someone gets that an 19 year old making such a huge decision is tough. I think the entire private-college cost system is messed up but that's another decision. I'd definitely love to see a decision tree on this, and would stop with the pointless badgering after :P I think this is an interesting case-study, and many people on here are over- simplifying which decision is rational. My gut actually tells me to stay at CUNY, even though I realize that Cornell can open up many more doors.
I am not necessarily even risk averse; I just hate the thought of spending a large sum of money without ever even making a lot of money by myself. Lastly,I would like if someone can address the 10% at Cornell who are "seeking employment"..This forum is definitely awesome, and has allowed me to continue striving to the top. Thanks Patrick and all those who have responded, minus those who called kicks haha!
Imma let you finish but Brady4MVP was the best troll of all time. OF ALL TIME
warning: serious response ahead (no more memes from me this thread)
ragstoriches, I'm going to simplify things here for you on a grand level. think of school as a toll road.
you can either pay a bit extra and go through the toll road, or you can go on some dirt path where few have made the trek before.
sure it is much cheaper to not go around, but you are going to have to work a lot harder to find your destination. in the process, you are more likely to be lost, more likely to be stranded in the middle of nowhere. Whereas you still have ways to go on the toll road, you at least have a smoother path to your destination.
To take my analogy a bit further, I've been out of school for 5+ years so I'm a bit out of touch from recruiting, but from every single person I've talked to, recruiting has gotten way harder, not easier, despite what you will see from certain reports (like the one on the front page about Harvard MBAs not going to banking). You NEED all the edge you have in life you can possibly get your hands on, and you cannot let money be a big deciding factor.
You want to know who's paying a butt load of money to go to school? My girlfriend and all her med school friends. By the time most of them see a penny they'll be 27-30 years old and guess what? They'll be making $40k-$50k for a few years before they start making the big bucks. Most of them are about $200k in debt, and a majority of them will not be "rollin' it in" as you kids call it nowadays. You think these people let money stop pursuing their dreams?
If you want it badly enough, you [strong[WILL[/strong] make it happen. I freaking worked full-time in college to make sure I had as little debt as possible. Tutoring gets you $20/hr and it's the chillest job you'll have. Summer internships at a bulge bracket or MM nets you $10k or so. How BADLY do you want it
I'm done.
OP's odds out of Cornell are much better than Baruch, but once OP is in the door, his outcomes are going to be roughly the same whether his undergrad was Baruch or Cornell. He will still notice it if he is from Baruch, and it will still annoy him, but its not like he'd be going to Wharton MBA in one place and Columbia in another, and its not like he'd be making MD in seven years and taking ten to make VP. Once in the door, Baruch may stunt his career growth by one further year and turn a Booth admit into a Kellogg or Sloan admit. The differences will be a little noticeable, sometimes very annoying, but not horrible in the grand scheme of things. I don't think it merits a different analysis except maybe a small discount outside of IBD.
I'm sorry, but people (including AdComs) have biases that favor Ivy graduates. I'm sure the statistics confirm this...
Plus, you make no mention of exit opps out of banking and how having Cornell will once again be a huge advantage...I think it's well known that the majority of MBAs in finance are not just doing 2 years of IB or ER and then applying. Most of the either go to the buyside and/or try their hand in a start-up, corp-fin, corp-strat, etc...either way, having the Cornell degree will again make it easier to place into a better 2nd job after college as well.
If we want to give him some sympathy and say as a 19 year old, it's a tough choice because he has to move away from friends, because $80,000 is an intimidating amount of money or something else, then fine. I have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is trying to conflate those issues with what should be a crystal clear better financial and career-based decision. I think both you and I know how tough it is to get into a top business school, so that 15% you didn't mention can be all the difference when then acceptance at these programs range from 10-18%...
Brushing off your ugrad degree as if it's an after-thought once you've been working a few years is ignoring some pretty well known biases and the much better network you can still tap 2-3 years after school.
I dunno. UIUC didn't hurt me in the grad school process. Also an MFin didn't hurt me vs the best I could have done out of HBS. Frankly I was a more marginal FO applicant being the strategist (aka desk programmer) on an S&T desk.
References matter. Current job description matters. GMAT matters (somewhat) Being an interesting person matters
Undergrad? Maybe. Idunno. Maybe if you came out of MIT with a 4.0, that's still relevant. I am of the view that Cornell's prestige is eclipsed by ER at say Citi or Morgan Stanley.
Frankly I think planning to apply 18 months in advance rather than six and doing something unique or interesting completely eclipses undergrad school. Two ER guys, age 26, from Deutsche apply to HBS. One gets back into karate he learned in high school and comes in first out of twenty in some Wall St-wide competition a year before applying. He lists this on his application, omitting the number of participants. The other volunteers as a tutor at some volunteer organization with lots of MBA track people but went to Cornell. Who has the better shot? Who gets invited to HBS's dinner party for successful and interesting people? My money is on Mr. Karate rather than Mr. Cornell.
Cornell is a great school- it has an amazing Engineering program. At the same time, 15% of my analyst class from from Cornell. (Another 15% was from UPenn and another 15% was from NYU). Being on Wall Street may make you special as an MBA applicant. But being from Cornell and being on Wall Street does not really make you any more special or unique.
I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm just saying that the odds of them getting to that tiebreaker- and getting to that tiebreaker on you when dozens and dozens of other things completely eclipse that- are less than 2-3%, and that's conditioned on the fact you'd be admitted in the other case. So we're really talking 8% chance admit at HBS, 8%3% 0.24% chance of missing it because you went to Baruch.
*In all honesty those odds are more like 30% and 1% for someone in ER. And yes, Cornell improves the odds of getting the foot in the door in ER in the first place.
I think factoring in undergrad to the MBA admit equation isn't statistically significant for a 10 year career outcome. Yes theoretically Cornell should help but I don't think it will change the the decision anywhere near as much as the grad school option helps Baruch.
Finally one can make the argument that for some adcoms, trend defeats undergrad prestige. Booth and Kellogg may be two good examples.
IP, I find your analyses on this topic thorough and comprehensive. However, I do think that the scale of your coverage on this topic is far outside the bounds of what the OP is able to opine on, given his experience as an UG.
You have the gift of hindsight, which as you said is 20/20. All these factors you bring up about B-school and the future are indeed true, but we have to simplify this for the OP: should he go to Cornell or Baruch?
All things considered, decision tree and range of possibilities ruled out, and assuming an "average" candidate, I think (and I think that everyone else thinks, and I think even you think) that Cornell is simply a safer choice which is more likely to yield a desired "outcome" for his UG career.
And whoever mentioned this, I noticed it too: ragstoriches, Patrick just went way, way the fuck out of his way to convince you on this topic. He's about as involved in potentially biased discussions as any god is in real life: not at all. You just had god step down and go "do it." Shit, he even called upon IP, who is Broseidon for the purpose of this analogy. Pay the fucking money and don't look back.
Now you're using anectodal evidence. You are one person. Your situation is very unique. Your very detailed examples are just that, examples that fit your biases. How about you take into consideration how most of recruiting is done on Wall Street in reality versus what you want or think it should be, and then give the advice that you know is correct. Actually, you have said Cornell is the right choice several times (as much as I know that may pain you).
As of 2013, there are still target schools. As of 2013, there are still non-targets. This doesn't mean kids at non-targets are just as smart or can't be just as successful, but it does mean the kids at target schools have a HUGE FUCKING ADVANTAGE.
To even insinuate that $80k may not worth it for a Cornell degree when you are targeting extremely competitive financial careers is crazy.
The fact of the matter is that the OP is already leaning toward staying at CUNY.
The fact remains that your comments are doing nothing to help him make the right decision. Extrapolating certain cases where the right economic/career outcome is not Cornell is doing a disservice to the OP. This is exactly what he was looking for so that he can justify the horrible decision he had already made before creating this thread.
Really sad to see...can't save them all, especially when he seeks out the one professional out of 150,000 that will semi-validate his argument that under certain cases, staying at CUNY might be better...when everyone else is SCREAMING... "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T DO ITTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!" for a very very very good reason.
If this community is AT ALL representative of Wall Street, OP, don't you think that is reason enough to transfer?
You're a good guy, Patrick. To be honest, if he goes to Baruch I wouldn't mind. That's one less target I'll have to compete with when B-school applications come along.
UIUC is arguably one of the top 5 public schools in the States...Baruch...not so much. Especially if you were in engineering from UIUC.
This too is a point I wanted to mention to you, Illini. Even if it's not top 5, Baruch is not nearly as well-regarded as UIUC.
for the record, I have never gotten this worked up over a post...
But once you're in, the prestige and pedigree of Deutsche or GS or Citi eclipses that of nearly any school. Even in the better run groups that aren't in the front office. There are kids at Harvard and Princeton who would still give their eye teeth to be able to work for BAML ER.
I don't want to be the asshole who gets into school prestige, but I don't think having gone to Cornell matters that much if you work for MS ER, even one of the better-known MM firms. Don't get me wrong. It's a great school. I just think that the relevancy, recency, and prestige of a BB job largely renders most undergrads, even a school as good as Cornell, moot. Unless you graduate Harvard Summa, or pull off a 4.0 in ECE at MIT while working on a huge machine learning project, undergrad really doesn't matter that much at the level of BB FO for grad school admission.
*sorry for typos, posting from my iPhone.
I acknowledge the fact that UIUC is a fairly well run state school. It may have given me a leg up, but not nearly as much as working for a BB did. The Midwestern states, Southeast, and West Coast have a better commitment to well run state research institutions, but I think the overall quality of the students is still on about the same order between states, generally, handicapping for the difficulty of certain majors.
I think we all largely agree. Unfortunately Inam in the last week of my internship right now and need to put together a final presentation this evening. If I have any free time, I will work on that model if folks are still interested.
If OP will graduate $40k in debt by graduating from Cornell, I don't think a transfer will turn out to be a horrible mistake. I'd rather actually run the analysis, but in the absence of it, my educated guess is that Cornell is probably the better choice.
Went on linkedin and try to look up Baruch College with some financial firms or use "equity research" as keyword. (no freaking idea why because this seems like a lost cause already) Came up with some slim pickings. Not sure if you can go to the link.
Goldman: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?keywords=baruch%20college&company=gol…
Credit Suisse: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?company=credit%20suisse&openAdvancedF…
MS: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?company=morgan%20stanley&openAdvanced…
Equity Research: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?keywords=%20&title=equity%20research&…
Yeah you have one or two people that "made it" in each search terms...but take a look at these for Cornell:
Goldman: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?company=goldman%20sachs&openAdvancedF…
CS: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?company=credit%20suisse&openAdvancedF…
MS: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?company=morgan%20stanley&openAdvanced…
Equity Research: http://www.linkedin.com/vsearch/p?title=equity%20research&openAdvancedF…
Ok I was shocked to see 45 more comments on this thread, I was in your same shoes 2.5 years ago for the most part so I know what's like. I don't want you to make the wrong decision. You hear that? Wrong decision. Since all the reasoning has been written down above, I will just share some of my personal stories:
I didn't do a good job with college application. - Got into a reasonable LAC with great scholarship and called it a day. There I discovered that it was not challenging enough and not good location-wise. My peers were not motivated. It was too relaxing (maximum 4.5 classes per semester and parties start on Wednesday's night). The only thing that kept me there was my good friends.
Second year, I was fucking tried of all that BS and decided to transfer. Do you know my dream school at the time? Cornell it was. Initially I decided to try out spring transfer before doing the real shit in the Fall. I applied to only one college and put some work into my app but again not my best. To my surprise I was accepted with even more aid from the new school. Hell I felt like a boss walking around campus. My parents were proud of me and my friends treated me like a champ.
At that very moment, yes at that very moment, I fell again into the trap of self-satisfaction. I stopped trying for the better. I was afraid of letting go that aid to go through the process again. I tricked myself into thinking that I would make it anyway with this school: "It's a T30 anyway". That Cornell's image blurred more and more in my eyes. I regret till this day for selling myself short. I really, really regret...
Second semester of my second year: coming to a new college was great. I had so much work to do as the bar was way higher. Kids were smarter and richer (it counts). I started to think more about investment jobs. I worked hard to boost my GPA every semester. I gunned for the jobs. I searched for the people. Not a bad place BUT my school simply didn't have any meaningful OCR.
Well then as a motivated and naive kid I networked. Damn it was difficult...
Third year: You must know the feeling of sitting on the bus throughout the night just to meet someone for a coffee chat in the morning and to get back for classes on time. For more fun, let do it multiple times. Yet many of my meetings were horrible because the MD, VP or whatever didn't pay attention to non-ivy schools like mine. Some even asked me: "what school is that?". All my self-esteem literally dropped into a shit hole. They did that awkward coffee chat out of mercy for desperate and annoying kids like me. They already had 10 plus Ivy resumes lining up for that "internship". I eventually managed to get a risk intern interview with Citi and a asset management with UBS. Well you know what? The Ivy kids eventually took both from me...
Fourth year: Knowing that I would not make it, I became a prestige whore and applied for brand-name masters...
Yes just a story. Sure not every MD, VP or analyst is like that. Sure you heard success stories on WSO. Sure kids from my schools do get FO jobs. Sure I could have done better. Yet are you sure you will not be like me or thousand other non-ivy kids? How about another anecdote? My friend, one of the best kids I know, had a GS internship but in the end he still had to settle for a MO job. Guess who received the FO FT offers? The Ivy kids. Now he is now unemployed because they trimmed down his team. Guess who were kept? The Ivy kids. Sure he will try again but you know what? The Ivy kids...
Yeah you can say that this is all BS. Yet had I been given the chance again I would have totally done it for better or worse. What about you? You already got the offer damn it! Don't be afraid to take risk. Don't fall into the comfort-zone.Don't think that it gonna be the same for Baruch. No it will not. I guarantee you that if you go to Cornell and hustle you will be able to pay off that 80k and make TONS. If you are not motivated going into Cornell, Cornell will make you so. I will never say the same for Baruch. Did you see that I spelled "Baruch" wrong in my initial post? Yes I did because I didn't care. Life is too short for me to spell check a "CUNY college's name". If I'm a MD, I will not give a shit even if you graduate from Baruch with a 3.8. Blame that on human's nature.
Look, you are only 20 years old. College's name may not be important right now but it will be in the future. Cornell's name and connections will carry on for the rest of your life. A few years from now, they will announce you on stage with "Mr.X, a fucking Ivy graduate from Cornell Uni, is here to lecture us about...". All eyes on you and the show is on...
I had never even heard of Baruch before this thread, and I know a ****-ton of people on Wall Street.
Go to Cornell.
@ragstoriches has oddly gone quiet...maybe it's the fact that 100% of the people in this thread told him what he didn't want to hear?
(shamless plug for new @mention feature - just type @username and that user will be notified that they were mentioned in a thread)...
And the fact that you got into Cornell.
And the fact that for a smart person the transition probability into a FO role is greater than the transition probability out of one.
I believe Cornell is the right move, but its obnoxious to the folks at CUNY to say that it's completely black and white. There are successful folks from CUNY, SUNY, and Baruch in this business, so lets not write that off.
Still, for a smart person Cornell is probably the right choice if you only have to pay $80k in tuition and don't have to go more than $40k into debt.
Fair point, I don't disagree with what your saying and am not implying that folks at CUNY, SUNY etc aren't smart etc. That being said, I do believe that if you want FO IB and want to make it as easy for yourself as possible-especially if you don't have internships yet-, moving to Cornell from CUNY IS a no brainer and a decision you probably wouldn't look back from.
Starting to smell a troll. Come on man, if I could go back and have had the opportunity or aptitude to transfer into an Ivy, I'd have paid the 80k and never given it a second thought. I went to a small, private liberal arts school and still am paying back close to 40k in debt. My family isn't rich either and I'm on my own.
Also in regards to grad school. let me say this: if you go to Cornell, you may find it that you never need to go back to school. Odds are though, if you go to Baruch, you will need to go back to school (depending on what you are doing with your career at that point, which you have no way of knowing at the moment!)
@wallstreetoasis.com great new feature...I think you guys have really strong points, and am now strongly leaning towards transferring to Cornell. Thanks all for helping me with my decision. Any tips with OCR for SA with below-average finance work experience? Thanks again for all of your help! I also hope Cornell might change their FA in their future, but I obv can't rely on it.
Hey I had to make the same decision last year. Up until 2012, I was morally opposed to Ivies and trying to burn the target school system to the ground (I still am trying to do that). My identity was firmly rooted in the cornfields of downstate Illinois.
I felt like a sellout for going to a target grad school. I was worried that I would turn into someone my former self would hate. But that didn't happen, and it was the right decision.
Feel free to PM me.
really? where you attend school shouldn't be part of or affect anyone's identity.
Just went through this and saw OP's post (one of many) about wanting to hold on to his $80K.
OP: If you decide to stay in the CUNY system, you'd better hold on to that money as tightly as you can for as long as you can, because that's probably going to be the only good thing that comes out of it. Like many of the people here, I'm getting a little frustrated/pissed off reading your responses. It's plainly obvious that Cornell will set you up much more strongly for internships, full-time jobs and also any graduate school, be it business or law. About moving to a new campus and making new friends being a scary, scary decision: I, like many people, have moved around a lot (whether it be for college or before- in my case both), and I, like many people would, will tell you to man the fuck up and just go. You say this is the decision of your life and you seem like you're set on making the wrong decision. Again, as many people in this thread have said- and while people understand you're worried about the financial aspect of it, people will keep saying- make the smart choice and go to Cornell. In all likelihood, you'd literally be making the worst decision of your life (up to this point) if you don't. Why on Earth anybody would choose to make their entire professional life so so so so so so so much harder for $80K (that will be earned back pretty quickly, in almost every circumstance- and if you are as driven as you imply you are, I'm sure you won't have a problem making it back) is absolutely beyond me. Let me ask you this: you say you'll work your ass off and do well at Baruch, but are worried you don't do so hot at Cornell- if you work just as hard, even going against other Cornell kids, do you REALLY think you won't do better coming from there? Don't be an idiot. Everyone here is trying to help you, don't act like people aren't clearly telling you Cornell is a better option ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, or like everyone is just joking. GO. TO. CORNELL.
UIUC were four very important and formative years for me.
I went from a rich Chicago suburb to living in downstate Illinois. My roommate was from Peoria and some of my friends worked their way through college. I learned there were a lot of people out there who were smarter than me who didn't consider themselves very special or interesting. And that if you wanted to make friends, you couldn't be an asshole (and UIUC's definition was different than the definition I was used to) and you had to fit in.
So yes, for me, undergrad is part of who I am. I believe I'd be a much different person if I had gone to a private university in addition to growing up in a wealthy suburb and then landing at a bank. I guess for other people, college may not define them, and it may not define me in ten years, but I think it still defines me now.
Finally, OP has a much smaller sample set of what defines him as an adult. He's been out of the house for two years and CUNY is all he knows about who he is when his parents aren't telling him what to do.
Not everyone has the same experience. My hunch is that OP will be a bit more like me than the typical Wso banking community, but I think everyone else also has that prior view that OP is like them. I'm just throwing my information and experience out there.
Fantastic thread. I'm really impressed with how much effort you guys have gone to.
OP all I will say is I went to a target and had a lot more debt than you. I just paid it off (I'm 29), but I've had an amazing career which my first job set me up for. Without my target background I wouldn't have even made it to interview (I know this for a fact as I now interview grads).
My only other point is that if you ever want to work outside the US eg london, HK etc your chances are EXTREMELY low if you come from a school no one has ever heard of... Think of it like a foreigner coming to the US. IF you aren't from Oxbridge, UCL, LSE etc it's very tough.
College is four very important and formative years for anyone, regardless of institution. But I think if you're a person with good sensibilities, where you go to school should not change you at the core. Even at 18. Sure, your perspective of people/the world/etc... might change, but your core values and who you are should not alter appreciably. If you were smart, friendly, humble, and a generally decent person before, you'll probably remain the same whether graduating from state school or some Ivy.
Which is why I have a hard time believing this:
That said, an enormous amount of WSO posters identify themselves by what school they attend. Bad move.
Certainly, reasonable minds may differ.
This makes me happy. Silver banana for you, sir.
I would literally say the difference is worth $250k in loans. Don't even fucking consider it for a second. Go to an ivy league school. It'll change not only where you work and how much money you earn, but who your friends are, who you marry, and so forth. You'll enter (or at least brush against) the elite of America from that point forward. It's not Harvard, I know, but less than 1% of U.S. college students are at ivys. It's the pinnacle of global education. Your kids will also become legacy, and so will your grandkids, and nephews and nieces, changing the prospects of every future generation in your family forever (if people don't agree with this, they simply just don't get it).
Is there a big difference between a state school and an elite private school?
I'm trying to decide whether to transfer from UT Austin (McCombs) to Northwestern.
Northwestern is a great Big Ten school, probably better than a few of the Ivies depending on what you're studying, and I'm not going to knock it.
That said, the difference between UT Austin and any elite private school is going to be narrower than it would be for many other state schools. This is more debatable, and I'd argue it would come down to your specific situation.
1.) What are your career goals? ----1a.) Do you want to work in energy? ----1b.) Do you want to work on Wall Street (Specifically, NYC finance)? ----1c.) What is your career goal for ten years from now? (I need to know how much money you will need to get you there- some things like getting an MBA or starting a business are more difficult if you already have student loans) 2.) Are you studying Engineering, CS, or Accounting at UT Austin? -------> In which case, it's generally not worth transferring. Actually I would advise many engineering or accounting students at many elite schools (including a few ivies) to transfer to UT Austin's engineering program if they get in and want to take their career in a successful but non-wall-street direction. 3.) What is the cost difference? ----3a.) Are you in-state at UT Austin? ----3b.) Is Northwestern giving you any financial help? ----3c.) Is your family in a position to help? How much will you have to take out in loans?
My guess is that a lot of people are going to favor Northwestern over UT Austin without needing these questions answered, or not knowing some of the strengths and weaknesses of the schools, but I am actually leaning a little more towards UT, and may vociferously advocate it depending on how you answer these questions. I may also tell you to transfer depending on your answers- or that I just don't know and that it's probably a wash. I really need to know more about your situation.
My aunt graduated from Hope College (a Christian school in Michigan) and makes $30K/year. She lives in a town in upstate Wisconsin, works 35 hours a week, has three kids, spends 7 hours out of every Sunday at church, and has a view of Lake Michigan out of her kitchen window.
You guys would argue her life is lower quality than a banker's, but I think I am happier and more fulfilled than the average banker, and I think she is happier and more fulfilled than me.
Money and success don't give you happiness- they only give you more complicated problems.
There are reasons people don't go to Harvard or Wall Street. The older I get, the more I wonder if these people are just as smart as me but maybe a lot wiser than I was at 22.
.
1a) I have no particular interest in energy. 1b) I also do not have a particular interest in Wall Street or NYC finance (or even finance in general) 1c) 10 years from now I would like to either work for a startup or own my own company. I would not have student loans either way.
2) I am currently studying finance at UT, and will not be studying engineering.
3a) I am out-of-state at UT Austin 3b) The costs will be very similar at both schools 3c) They will help me and I will not need to take out any loans.
Other notes: I like to go out and have a good time, and I do not like cold weather. I would prefer to study Econ at Northwestern over any of the McCombs majors at UT. I do not plan to work in Texas or in the Northeast after I graduate, I would like to move to the west coast.
Totally agree with your position on this and the hustling life isn't for everyone... certainly being a banker is not. I don't necessarily think working long hours and making huge money will make you happier (I personally think money is "necessary but not sufficient" in making me happy), but being close to those with influence and having a (potentially somewhat false) feeling that you're at least connected to the global political economy is something I value greatly.
I also have a penchant for Valentino suits and Oliver Peoples glasses which requires a steady income ; )
Go for Cornell. You will be twice as motivated to network and do well in classes, because you actually value the money you're paying to be enrolled and that attitude can be the difference between getting an offer or not.
lol I would never have guessed this board holds such high opinion of cornell
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