Retail financial services to IB
Just want to gauge perceptions out there...
There are tons of resumes out there from folks that have a retail financial services background who want to pursue IB. What is your perception of these candidates? What if someone started in retail financial services or PWM then pursued for a Kellogg MBA or some other MBA, would that person be able to lateral at your shop?
If commercial banking folks can move on to an MBA program and enter IB why not also retail folks?
Yes. You can do something even completely unrelated to finance, then go get your MBA from a top b-school and make it in to a BB. People with IB experience, will have a leg up on everyone, but the top MBA is the closest thing to the great equalizer there is.
Especially if you go out of your way to take advantage of Training the Street when they stop by your school, etc.
Why are IBs so enamored with Training the Street?
They don't have a presence in every school and if they do, they simply guide how to answer popular interview Qs, however, does that truly gauge a candidates strength toward financial analysis? No.
Do you guys ever give credit to someone coming from a non-target, without the types of resources found at target schools such as Consulting Clubs, IB Clubs, Finance Clubs, Training the Street etc. that they can prepare and be equally suitable as a candidate?
Training the Street is 2 week modeling course that runs you through creating financial models from scratch, accretion/dilution, WACC, DCF, LBO...basically the ultimate primer to being an analyst or 1y associate. They visit several top b-schools, so yes, taking this course in your spare time would definitely help.
Edit: I don't know a lot about associate hiring and don't pretend to. But from what I've noticed is that if you don't have prior IB experience, the "target" list of B-schools is even smaller than the list for undergrad. Maybe the assumption is that after graduating and working for a few years, you should have a better idea of what you want to do and how to get there?
I know TTS and the material that it basically covers. But that's just it, it covers the basics.
e.g. Kellogg's IB and capital market club offer TTS or equivalent type preps in advance of recruiting seasons.
However, kids coming from non-targets don't have these resources. Therefore, my point is that if somone from a non-target goes out of their way to seek out equivalent knowledge either thru self-study or thru outside vendors, shouldn't we give them credit for being driven and being proactive. It certainly differentiates them as candidates since from target school candidates will never be imposed to do this for themselves.
Sure, but then the question is, if you knew you wanted IB, took all the extra pains to prep yourself for it outside of what was available to you at your school, then why didn't you just work harder to get into an IB target school? Not saying it's fair, because it's not, but banks aren't concerned with being fair, they're concerned with being efficient in their recruiting.
TTS may not be an indicator of how well you perform as an associate but it's usually part of actual training at the bank and its the closest thing you can do to having actual modeling experience on the job.
To put it this way, if you're from a top b-school, having done TTS, clubs, etc. why should you be discounted vs. someone who went out of their way to do TTS from a non-target? Didn't you also show drive by getting into the target in the first place?
I maintain that the only way a non-target b-schooler is going to get in is by connections and networking. The straight up apples to apples comparison won't work...
Let's argue that the process is as follows... we get a heap of resumes. Targets, non-targets etc.
First the school scrutiny - who's in/out? Next the GPA scrutiny - who's in/out? There are Big 4 candidates - they know acctg. There are Engineering candidates - they got quant skills There are retail financial services candidates - they know broader financial services industry There are commercial banking candidates - they know financial statement analysis
It seems folks so readily toss out retail financial services and commercial banking candidates? Why?
If there are a certain # of spots, and schools/GPA are all equal, my logic turns to who has the most transferrable skillsets?
Out of the 4, retail candidates have the least transferrable (or potentially transferrable). They probably have less tangible projects they can point to on their resumes.
Not sure why people ding commercial bankers so quickly, but I can possibly see why vs. Big 4 they would be at a disadvantage...
Some folks don't know so readily that they'd like IB. So they decide to pursue it later after gauging the industry etc.
Some of them aren't great test takers, so don't score as high on GMAT.
Others simply have family or financial constraints, so don't go to targets
Others also have broader time constraints - do B-school now, anywhere otherwise fuggedaboutit entirely
Also, b-school app process is so competitive - everyone and their mother wants to go to UChicago or Wharton. Not everyone can.
Every single day on the forum there is the same question over and over...
Can I get in if I have this profile Can I get in if I have that profile
Folks realistically and perhaps even more folks unrealistically have their umbilical cords tied to do IB or less they die. They don't really truly do a self-assessment to consider whether they've got the goods to make it.
So they exhaust all this energy, all this time and they strategize, they plan their attack if not for now, then for later, i.e. post 3 years of work experience and post-MBA and then it's even MORE challenging etc.
In IB, the name of the game is "sacrifice." Not willing to put your school choice/career in front of geographical location for b-schools? Gone. Not a great test taker? Well last I checked analytics, verbal skills and pressure situations are all part of IB. Financial constraints? Top b-schools offer such good financial aid that alot of my associates traveled to Europe on it.
Didn't get into UChicago or Wharton because of competition? Does that mean you weren't as good as player B in comparison? How does that help your case from an IB recruiter standpoint?
I see your point, everyone deserves a chance. But if you REALLY want it, its not like banks make it unclear what they want to see in an applicant. Let's face it, everyone at top b-schools is of minimum intelligence and even all of them don't get into IB...
The reason I regard B-school as the great equalizer is because top b-schools aren't looking for a "profile." They really are more concerned with who they perceive to have the greatest chance to be successful. If they see alot of potential in you, they will admit you because they want to have their name attached to you (especially when you write the checks later).
My point is that while B-schools may be ambiguous about what they look for in an applicant, banks are not. So if you can get past the B-school apps, you can literally follow a gameplan and have half a personality and land in IB, in my opinion.
I know you're right. I've seen it happen.
Getting IN is half the process, i.e. getting IN to an analyst internship, if you didn't have an analyst internship and are graduating undergrad, then getting IN to as good of a first job as possible, something that will give you transferable skills later. Then it's getting IN to a decent B-School etc.
Somewhere between all these INs, I think folks overlook they have other options, attractive options beyond IB or instead of IB.
However, many candidates are a square peg trying by brute force to fit into a round hole.
I know a guy who is a financial advisor for Merrill looking to switch to IB. Didn't have the best grades from a non-target school in the South. Realized he wanted to get into IB after a couple years, but unfortunately got the wrong advice from someone (who undoubtedly is giving him the same wrong advice now). He went and got his MBA from an extremely non-target school and now he's stuck back as a financial advisor, trying to do anything he can (including getting his CFA).
What he really needed was someone to tell him straight up that chances were slim and a top b-school was not the only way, but the best way. Instead, he got a cheerleader co-worker and some false hope, and ended up blowing his chances.
he's an idiot if he blames it all on the coworker that gave him advice, even if that person's advice was crappy
Entering IB from a non-traditional route usually requires some networking, in my opinion.
He doesn't blame anyone. But when he says "so and so told me to do this/that" I came to the conclusion. He's actually so optimistic I feel bad when I lay it to him straight.
GameTheory, that's the thing everyone is very optimistic. Everyone believes in themselves and so they want to give it their ALL.
One tries to lay it straight to folks. Yet, they insist and stubbornly keep on pursuing careers in IB and ignore that they might have other, very attractive options.
I am highly pestimistic myself. When my parents or friends asked me what my chances were at getting job a or job b, I would say 5%. They would think I was defeatist, but honestly it was the truth.
A mentor of mine that graduated top of his class in high school, college and mba. He interviewed 21 places before getting an offer for a upper/mid-level position in Asset Management. I interviewed about 10 before getting my current position. I spent at least 160 hours on my resume and cover letter in the course of applying for about 30 positions. I also had some very smart people look at my documents and make thoughtful suggestions. You can tell when someone has put a lot of effort into a resume. It's very easy to throw a resume away with a grammar error or bad formatting.
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