Reviving the Certified Users Group

BlackHat:

Hey guys, per the discussions in the WSO Suggestions thread, it looked like a decent number of you share my interest in getting a lot more dialogue out there between the Certified Users. I assume most of the people given CU status are legitimate, but I'm sure there's some that aren't, but regardless it might not be a bad idea to try something like a Certified Users Happy Hour separate from the all-WSO ones, because I think if that was the case I'd be much more open to coming out a bit more and not being as anonymous (my anonymity pales in comparison to some others though).

I have no interest in showing up to a bar covered in Baruch students passing out resumes for a WSO Happy Hour, but I'd be more than willing to show up and have a few beers with some guys in the industry who I could bullshit with about things that a group of college kids would never be able to relate to or understand. If this idea sounds interesting to anyone, speak up and maybe we can get something set up.

Also, just for the purpose of general conversation among the guys in the industry... is anyone else noticing (across all of them, not just the WSO people, though most notably the WSO kids) the new generation coming in trying to "break in" have a very marked attitude shift... at least from what I remember of how everything worked back when I was in their shoes? People seem a lot more entitled and lazy, very passive, clueless and without the motivation or determination to go out and get a clue themselves, etc? Am I sounding snobby or are a good number of these kids just seem lost and more or less disappointing to talk to and help?... If that makes any sense?

I think it's just that the louder kids are the more annoying / entitled ones and there are now more of them on WSO.

Would definitely be up for grabbing a beer with any Certified Users in Boston. As for NYC, the Happy hours are usually a good group of guys (many of them are professionals/certified)...the only happy hour i heard of someone bringing a resume was the one the night before the WSO Conference. ha, so clueless...

Woud like to see this group pick up. I know Gekko21 was talking about a Fantasy Football league...maybe we could get some more certified users to jump in...

anyone game?

Soooooo down for fantasy football.

• Certified User group seems like a good concept (sadly, as a Canadian consultant not really relevent) but I support anything for good guys getting together to have a beer.

• Re: New Generation - I haven't noticed it in any of my projects, but I've heard a couple times now from senior's "why aren't our other associates like you." Generally their approach to QA and deadlines.

• I can't imagine having to moderate a site with this much faux-testosterone flowing through it. I get probably a kid a month tracking me down on LinkedIN (I'm not tough to find really) looking for me to get them a job....and they get bitchy if I say I really can't do anything for them.

Maybe someone a few years older than me can let me know if every generation is this way.

TT

Can we have some separate designation for mods. Like instead of a gold star it could be a blue star or something along those lines.

Regarding what you wrote BlackHat I think it's just a result of the coddled nature of this generation and that they been brainwashed that a college degree is a magic ticket to riches. Maybe back 15-20 years ago but not in a post financial crisis world. They'll get it eventually like we all have once 6 months after graduation rolls by and they have to make their first $500 monthly payment on $80k of unsubsidized student loans.

Regardless most students (and some of my peers) fail to realize that at this stage in the game all they have is potential. We aren't judged by our potential though, as many fail to reach theirs. Right now they are just another monkey with dollar signs in their eyes, hoping the best case scenario works out for them. They talk big but in the end its all hopes and dreams.

BlackHat:

just for the purpose of general conversation among the guys in the industry... is anyone else noticing (across all of them, not just the WSO people, though most notably the WSO kids) the new generation coming in trying to "break in" have a very marked attitude shift... at least from what I remember of how everything worked back when I was in their shoes? People seem a lot more entitled and lazy, very passive, clueless and without the motivation or determination to go out and get a clue themselves, etc? Am I sounding snobby or are a good number of these kids just seem lost and more or less disappointing to talk to and help?... If that makes any sense?

I actually think, on average, the college kids now are much better prepared and informed, (by orders of magnitude) than the kids graduating with me in 1998. It probably has alot to do with the fact that the Internet is actually useful, informative, and can be browsed 1,000 times faster than the mid-'90's. I think Patrick is right that almost by definition, the most annoying/entitled/clueless ones are the loudest and usually you remember being annoyed more than something innocuous. Also, you would find them here on the internet more than in real life, probably because it's easier to ask dumb questions when someone can't tell you what a dumbass you are and can't prevent you from getting a job.

I like my anonymity and haven't figured out what my downside is yet about meeting people here in real life (and I don't like not knowing my downside). Because I have a couple of kids at home, I mostly only go out after work if it's with clients. Plus, I don't like to drink before work, if I can help it. So, I'm probably taking a pass on drinks for now.

Also, Patrick. I think I figured out what you are referring to about the threats towards Bankerella. Good move in banning that guy. That is pretty messed up and I hope it didn't go farther than the dumb stuff I saw posted in his thread.

Would definitely be down to try and grab beers with some of the Certified Users. I've been noticing this type of thing with kids trying to break in too. I mostly cluelessness / laziness, and a lot of them really don't seem to be cut out for it, or at least not the way they are going about it. When I was reaching out a couple years ago, I was prepped and ready for a full on interview any time I sent out an email or called someone on the phone. I have kids call me all the time now and say how certain they are that they want to do investment banking and I ask them to describe for me what an investment banking analyst does and they have no clue... and these are kids who use WSO... it just doesn't make sense to me. I think it's just a herd mentality, everyone gets excited about it but when push really comes to shove, you know the kids who really want to make it because they are prepared, they are hungry, and they will find a way to do it whether you help them or not, but they are humble and thankful for any advice they pick up along the way. I don't think you're in alone in thinking that these types of kids are the minority of cases, it's just that the other extreme has so saturated the job market that it's becoming much harder to see these types outside of the structured process. I have hope tho... I know I was like this and I have to believe that if you look hard enough you will find those diamonds in the rough who are worth helping out.

Anyone in NYC want to grab drinks this Thursday? I'd love to get a group together for people who aren't constantly trying to impress / break in...

@ Patrick, After going through the WSO starting to get worse post, there were some legitimate points in there, which you have addressed, but I felt that a good number of users think that WSO should be perfectly tailored to their specific desires, which, for a large public forum is simply impossible. I've been reading/commenting on the forums since 2007 or whenever the hell back, and I think you have made incredible improvements, the site is miles ahead of what it used to be. Sure you can always improve it, and from what I am seeing, you and your team are working to do so, but don't feel like you have to cater to every little personal need of every user who bitches. There is still no other finance forum that serves the same purpose as WSO that even comes close to accomplishing what WSO does.

@Blackhat, I've been to several happy hours when I lived in the city. They mostly draw the Certified Users and other professionals. The few college kids that I have met in those meetups were also pretty on point, just a couple folks that were a bit off, but I think you get those in any get together. Anyway, I would love to come to an official CU meetup, but unfortunately I'm in France for now. Maybe when I do my Wharton exchange semester, I'll come up for one.

Happy to be a new recruit to the League of the Gold Star. As one of the "younger generation", just thought I'd chime in on a few points--

The "new wave" of college students (and high school students) view the Internet as their lifeline. People are used to this idea of having a question and getting an instant answer. Texting, GChat, Facebook, etc... it just means that they expect someone to always be present and near-instant gratification. I've been bitched out more than once by underclassmen because I didn't respond right away to their LinkedIn requests, emails, etc.; I mean, give me a break fuckers, it's only been 3 days. Naturally, of course, that means these same people treat the Internet as a talking dictionary. I have siblings who are currently in middle/high school; they have never once cracked open an encyclopaedia in their life. Instead of digging around in any of the resources available to them, they immediately come to me or elder peers with questions. One of them was bold enough to ask me to give her a science fair project topic instead of researching and coming up with her own, which prompted an hour-long lecture and copious tears.

Long story short - it's not just a matter of an older generation griping on younger generations; it's an actual syndrome and a problem. I catch myself doing it from time to time and make an attempt to stop it, but when you've grown up in the Era of Instant Information/Responses, I can see why people can get impatient. "Why search around in the trenches when I could go straight to the source and ask a question, regardless if it sounds stupid or not?" (Add in the coddled idea of "There are no stupid questions" and you have a recipe for disaster...) THEN we get to the idea that the anonymity of the Internet has allowed people to act however the hell they please. After all, when you meet these overeager college kids in person, none of them are inquiring about suit colours or how to cold-call.

Patrick: sorry to hear about the clusterfuck; I have a pretty good idea of what happened (caught the posts before they were deleted). Hopefully the new system improves moderation a bit. I ran a large Internet community back in the day and there really is no way of pleasing everyone-- everyone just has their own opinion of what "should work best." For what it's worth, even in my 1-year stint on the site I've seen lots of improvements, and it's great you're opening it up to suggestions from the userbase.

I do have some secondary feedback from friends at my college, however. Here, WSO is almost something of an embarrassment, actually. I've seen students hiding their screens while getting on the forums, and no one really outright admits they lurk/post here. The general consensus is that WSO is for "desperate" and "toolish" individuals who are trying too hard to break in (i.e. too much useless focus on recruiting/interviews). Obviously that stereotype is coloured by the personality of a target school, but I think it does speak to the lack (or nonexistent prominence) of content that caters towards individuals already in the industry. I always enjoy the topics that focus on recent events or investing. Occasionally the content that gets promoted to the front page leans a little too much towards "lifestyle" and not enough towards the industry itself (this might also be a by-product of bloggers-as-mods having the ability to promote topics of their choosing). Of course, threads that focus on intellectual discussion should always deserve a place on the front page.

I agree with bearing's point about having a separate designation for mods. Especially if something gets -really- out of hand, would be nice to know who to contact. As for Bankerella - she's hilarious. And as much as I disagree with a few of her posts, they're great fuel for discussion. Just need to make sure the super-ragey comments are deleted so things don't get out of hand, but otherwise I see no reason to kick her.

I haven't been around as much this summer as I had been before. Combination of work picking up and managing an overwhelming number of SA's this summer. I won't bother commenting on the mods/bankerella stuff because I didn't see it (I actually think bankerella is a pretty successful troll - entertaining/funny while at the same time eliciting crazy reactions).

I have already made my opinions about chat public (I miss it). I thought it was a great way to get to know posters on a more personal level and it's disappointing that a few (or maybe lots?) of bad apples ruined it.

I have kinda been on both sides of the equation at WSO. I was in a back office role for almost a year and a half before breaking in with a boutique bank. I started out as absolutely clueless, and this site along with M&I basically educated me. Maybe it's just because that experience is still relatively fresh in my memory that I don't think all that much has changed. Yes, traffic is higher, but the questions from newbs are still a healthy mix of batshit stupid and genuinely important. I know I personally have posted both types.

I think the conference was kind of a microcosm of the site audience. You had a ton of college kids there - some who had a clue and some who absolutely didn't. On top of that you had the people that kinda make the site run (primarily doing panels/helping to organize, but also in the general audience, as I was). I don't think this dynamic or ratio has changed all that much since I joined the site, the quantity of people from both walks is simply growing. I think the changes that have been made are mostly for the better, and I appreciate that Patrick is constantly seeking out constructive criticism.

I have had drinks with WSO members a few times (arranged through chat, I might add) and actually made some pretty good friends. The only formal HH I went to was after the conference, but I'm happy to do any sort of meetup. I'll slam some Guinness with just about anyone, but it would nice to get a crowd of industry guys (and maybe ladies?) together. With that said, I think it's important not to put up a barrier between the older and younger crowds. I've met some great people who are still in undergrad through the site and conference.

Honestly, the biggest benefit for me has been the people on WSO not necessarily the information so I'm all for this.

Glad to see this group is back - to echo BH, I think a happy hour for CU is a great idea - just post the information in this forum so all the nutjobs don't see it.

Patrick, you continue to impress me with the site and how you handle the asshats (if it were me I wouldn't be as lenient, but I understand why you are).

+1 to Fantasy Football...

Blackhat, whenever you want to grab a beer, I can usually be convinced of it. I'm not gonna lie, I know what you were saying about the whole Happy Hour thing, but having been to just about all of the NYC ones, the core group of attendants are either all professionals/Certified Users and a certain alcoholic with a flair for taking mildly amusing notes and tearing into three piece suit wearing limey bastards. Come out to the next Happy Hour and experience it. Worst case, if you don't like it, say you're a lurker unless you end up meeting me. This way I can jokingly comment about overcoming my

. Nah, I kid man. In all seriousness, I'd come out and try it before you deny it. That said, I'm down for a CU meet up if that's what guys want to do instead of it. I'm sure we can find a time and a place that works to do this all.

I'm not going to comment on the "New Generation" stuff - just because I think that there is some truth in what everyone's said. I know I'm vocal about doing due diligence and searching for things whenever I see a stupid post that can be resolved with searching. At the same time, I do agree with ChicandToughness - it's kind of frighting how this younger generation swings; you know it's more than just a new sensation. These kids are tech savvy, which has its perks, but can't do anything on their own right without the aide of Wikipedia and other quick fixes. There is a high degree of "Instant Gratification" coming out of this generation, and it doesn't translate well in the workforce. Conversely, when their parents coddled them, they grew up believing they were entitled to it. Personally, I think that some good old fashioned ass kicking is in order, but that's just me.

Oh, and on Bankerella, I think she might be the new Midas - just without the beer swilling, machismo laiden, "FUCK YOU ALL AND THE HORSES YOU RODE IN ON" attitude. I'm sorry that some of the posters here are assholes, particularly with what happened, but jeez - she causes some controversy and it can be a good thing. She's just not as bad as Midas... yet!

Who said fantasy football and where do I sign up?

Working on the fantasy football thing now. We might have to make 2 separate leagues as there is one that is close to being full as it is. Will post more information when I have it.

If you are interested in playing and havent said so, please comment here.

I'd do fantasy football.

Ditto on anonymity. I recently changed usernames as I've started to put in blog posts for the front page. Wouldn't mind getting to know people on a more personal level within the CU group though.

Patrick,

Feasability of a chat focused/exclusive to CU group? Should prevent the BS from before and give us a chance to 'connect' a bit more effectively.

I'm in for fantasy football, absolutely

Is the fantasy football league already full?

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, folks.

CU Happy Hours would be terrific and would be a bit nicer to not have to hide behind anonymity.

But agreed with Frieds here: BlackHat, the Happy Hours are a great time, and in general draw a knowledgable, chill crowd. If you're uncomfortable with saying who you are, you can just say you're a new user or something. Frieds are usually pretty open about who we are. Just don't find yourself on the receiving end of one of his recaps.

We've got the regular WSO Happy Hour next Thursday in both Boston and New York City. I guess maybe sometime the following week we should work on a Certified User group date. I like long walks on the beach and good red wine.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/the-11-types-of-fantasy-football-players

Which one are you?

I believe bfin (not a CU) is running last year's FF league again. I'd PM him or request to join here: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/its-that-time-of-year-again-fanta…

We're looking for more established users to join, as last year we had a bunch of random drive-by WSO users join, and they abandoned their team after a few weeks.

I'm part Librarian, part Gambler, part Time Traveler. In my defense though, I have insiders on staff with ESPN, RotoWire and Yahoo!Sports that I do a lot of consulting with for my drafts so there goes the Librarian portion.

im definitely in for fantasy football if you guys have any extra spots. also, i tried to add a long post from my cell phone but it looks like it didnt get added for whatever reason. I would be all for a CU networking event, and it would definitely make me much more inclined to try to make it out. I haven't been posting as much as I'd like to but hopefully i'll be getting back in on the action soon.

While catching up on what's gone on in this thread, I saw something in particular that made me just skip everything else and have to comment immediately before I forget.

Chat for Certified Users.... would be... unbelievable.

Also, will be back in the city in a couple of days, would be happy to snag a brew with some of the real men of genius around here.

And agree with a lot of what you guys are saying on some of the college kids and the happy hour stuff. I definitely got a bit overwhelmed over the past few weeks with absolutely ridiculous PMs and Gmails that made me lose hope in the younger generation, haha. That said, there's definitely a lot of good apples around here who I've been really happy to be able to watch see some success by making all the right moves (Whiskey, WhiteHat, Unknown4Eva come to mind... all great kids).

But yeah, to echo myself... CU Chat. All day! Would also be a great way to talk trash when I start my Penn-State-Too-Soon-Laced Fantasy Football Dominance this season.

So how many of you guys will be coming to Thursday's general Happy Hour? We can try for a Certified-User only hangout sometime next week if need be.

I think the rankings are default as they are the same in my other leagues which do not have the bonuses attached to QB performance.

As a strategy consultant, let me say that this site is the only real online community for us out there.

I love the finance people and respect the hell out of what they do. Now, I do criticize when I see something to criticize, but I admire and respect the intellectual prowess of everyone here. Douche-ness of some members aside, the ambition here is what motivates me when a lot of my college classmates and work colleagues are not equally as motivated.

I wish I could attend the happy hours but I hear they're on Thursdays? If there are Friday ones, I can try to make it (I'm from Philly and fly back Thursday night). Since I won't be able to make it, feel free to add me on Linkedin and hit me up. IBM has a lot of resources that I can make available to you since I have access to all internal controls hahahah (if you want to find a contact person or whatnot). http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ronald-angsiy/5/8a1/416

MY SUGGESTION FOR THE SITE: You need 50 posts minimum before you can SB/MS people. Sooooooo many people make alt accounts just to up/neg people. It's a joke. I know there's a rule against not having alt accounts, which I've adhered to now...but it's almost unfair that others are being abusive with the reputation aspect of the site.

Sigh just realized no more chat. That is unfortunate. You think our chat was crazy should see some of my bbg persistent chats hahaha.

Glad to be part of this group. Like others, I found out about this site too late but I've used extensively to my advantage. I look forward to contributing more and helping others, especially the most clueless ones.