SAC Capital vs. Other Hedge Funds

Hi guys,

Newbie here. First post. Thanks in advance for helping me understand the following:

1. Who are SAC Capital (Steven Cohen)'s competitors? By capital base, perhaps, Greenlight Capital (David Eihorn), Pershing Square (Bill Ackman)? What about by some other measures?

2. I understand that SAC organizes PMs as separate small hedge funds, sort of the 'each PM runs his/her own show' type of thing. Are there significant differences, other than the regulatory probes/fines and the organizational structure between SAC and its competitors?

3. Fact: 70% of trades are now done by algorithm trading. Question: Will execution traders be bumped out by machines in the next few decades?

Soontobemonkey

 

I'll address number 3 only. I am a fundamentals based value-oriented analyst at a l/s hedge fund. From my perspective, algorithm based trading creates a ton of investment opportunities for traditional guys like me. They trade in seconds within earnings results being released without processing the facts or looking at the "bigger" picture or long-term prospects ie: potential opportunities in the pipeline, changing market dynamics, management, etc.. etc... the list could literally go on forever. I.M.O. they make my job a lot easier. In downturns, everything is on sale. In upturns, my holdings appreciate. No complaints here. Replace us though? No. Not gonna happen.

 
  1. Competitors... everyone is competing with everyone, but with no one directly, if that makes any sense. If I were to think about competition, I'd think about who have similar styles / who'd be likely to poach each others' talent. Greenlight and Pershing might compete for talent (deep fundamental analysis) whereas I think the broad view of SAC/P72 is for teams that make faster money in all environments. So a good example of competition for P72 would be Millenium.

  2. From the perspective of someone looking to get a job, the differentiators would be "prestige" (will having this name on my resume help me) and asset base. If you mean are these HF really differentiated, no, they aren't. There's some level of improved technology / risk management as you move up in AUM to more established firms. More AUM also means better access to management teams, better treatment by sell-side (meeting requests, etc), so some advantage there. If you are talking about HFT / Algorithmic trading firms, then yes, talent and technology at Renaissance or institutional learning at Bridgewater are real differentiators.

  3. Next few decades? Probably. Most finance roles will look hugely different in the next few decades.

 
Best Response

I would define SAC's competitive set as the equity-driven multi-manager platforms. They all run high levels of leverage offset by very tight risk controls (i.e. drawdown stops and minimal beta leeway). Millennium, Citadel GE, Surveyor, Balyasny, Carlson, Visium, etc. Each team runs as an autonomous mini hedge fund with their own strategy. Most of the funds have a structure where best ideas can be raised up into a "big book".

SAC's main advantage over its competitors is its superior fee structure (3/50 in the days when they ran outside capital). Thus payouts for their teams are generally bigger than competing shops. For this reason, they historically got great talent, although I would imagine that the controversy has made things more difficult. On the negative side, SAC was famous for having a very cutthroat culture where everyone hated each other.

Taking a step back, there are pros and cons of the multi-manager model vs. single-manager. Multi-manager shops are great in that everyone gets to be a PM. Senior analysts also have a lot of discretion and are basically running their own mini-books within their sectors. People can do very well and get paid. The flipside is that there is zero buffer if you don't perform. The door is constantly revolving. At each of these firms, there are a handful of big teams that consistently crush it, and everyone else kind of gets churned and burned, because they don't 1) have a strong investment process and 2) get enough scale to do well (i.e. hiring enough analysts to do deep work and getting cross leverage). When you go to management meetings, you can tell who is coming from the multi-manager shops because they are usually the ones asking detailed modeling questions (trees over the forest).

Single-manager shops generally do much deeper work and have the capital base to take the heat on concentrated long-term positions. Greenlight and Pershing Square, the two that you mentioned, fall into this category. Working at places like that will give you a more stable career trajectory (not to say that consistent performance isn't paramount, but there is more rope when compared to a multi-manager shop, especially once you've proven yourself). Single manager shops offer much better training because hiring someone is more of an investment for them. Realistically, most analysts at a single manager shop will never become a PM themselves. That doesn't mean that they can't become respected investors that have a lot of discretion within their area of expertise. At some shops analysts can make equal or more than PMs at multi-manager shops. It really depends. Hedge funds are not standardized like the sell-side. Some shops pay much more than others for an equal level of performance, there is a certain level of randomness to it, when looking from the outside.

 

Great post. But when you say "When you go to management meetings, you can tell who is coming from the multi-manager shops because they are usually the ones asking detailed modeling questions (trees over the forest)." - I can't tell if you mean that as a good or bad thing. Care to elaborate?

Another thing I will add is that if you are at a big multi manager shop that has multiple teams for each sector, it does seem a little silly at times, because if all those analysts were able to work together and share ideas instead of being siloed off just working for their PM, I'd think that would produce better results and generate a true "best ideas" portfolio.

 
troubadour:

Great post. But when you say "When you go to management meetings, you can tell who is coming from the multi-manager shops because they are usually the ones asking detailed modeling questions (trees over the forest)." - I can't tell if you mean that as a good or bad thing. Care to elaborate?

Another thing I will add is that if you are at a big multi manager shop that has multiple teams for each sector, it does seem a little silly at times, because if all those analysts were able to work together and share ideas instead of being siloed off just working for their PM, I'd think that would produce better results and generate a true "best ideas" portfolio.

I did not intend the bit about management meetings to be either positive or negative, but just indicative of a shorter-term focus. Depends on preference, but it goes without saying that a shorter time horizon tends to be more stressful.

Yes, there is a lot of duplication at multi-manager shops that is inefficient, but they grew up a certain way and I doubt they will ever change. I would imagine that some firms are better than others about encouraging dialogue between teams that cover the same stocks, and personal relationships would play a big role in the degree of communication.

 
  1. Buysude execution traders are unlikely to go away anytime soon. If anything the flash crashes and the Knight flash crash proves that a human needs to be manning the kill switch. Knight could have been avoided had multiple warning messages not been ignored preceding the flash crash. I am an execution trader at a quant HF and the CEO as well as the investors consider us an insurance policy for these types of events.
 

I am well aware of their current legal issues - however, I do remember reading that the firm is still an excellent place to work if I'm not mistaken.. can anyone shed some recent light on this?

thanks

 

I was recently talking to one of the leading hedge fund managers (the guy is an alum), asking how could I break into HF industry & work my way to the top. The way he replied, I felt it was more of a word of caution - "Don't work for HFs right outta school. First go do some consulting or banking. And if you could make it to the top 3 B-School programs, great! Else THEN try to break into HF."

"I do not think that there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcomes almost everything, even nature."
 
Illinoisprogrammerisajoke:
^Explain yourself. That sounds like rumors to me. How can SAC be on thin ice they have billions .

Galleon also had billions when Rajan and company were nailed. It seems that Steve Cohen has really gotten himself into trouble this time as some indicted inside traders from SAC are now pointing fingers directly at him saying that he told them to share the tips with him and the rest of the company.

Cohen had been safe from all the previous convictions against former SAC traders because he managed to protect himself via the signature SAC structure where each PM traded their own portfolios independently and supposedly completely insulated from and unaware of what other PMs were doing. It is gonna be hard to him to spin himself out of this situation however now that the prosecutor has found a direct link between him and the convicted PMs.

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.
 

I hope you're being sarcastic. That may the strangest notion I've ever heard. Why would Steven Cohen sell his cash cow? For that matter, who could he sell one of the biggest hedge funds it the world to? Not some no-name firm called "Nut Investments."

Who have you heard this from, exactly?

 

Omnis sunt deserunt officiis maxime sit. Necessitatibus ea in labore suscipit ipsa sint illo amet.

Career Advancement Opportunities

April 2024 Hedge Fund

  • Point72 98.9%
  • D.E. Shaw 97.9%
  • Magnetar Capital 96.8%
  • Citadel Investment Group 95.8%
  • AQR Capital Management 94.7%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

April 2024 Hedge Fund

  • Magnetar Capital 98.9%
  • D.E. Shaw 97.8%
  • Blackstone Group 96.8%
  • Two Sigma Investments 95.7%
  • Citadel Investment Group 94.6%

Professional Growth Opportunities

April 2024 Hedge Fund

  • AQR Capital Management 99.0%
  • Point72 97.9%
  • D.E. Shaw 96.9%
  • Citadel Investment Group 95.8%
  • Magnetar Capital 94.8%

Total Avg Compensation

April 2024 Hedge Fund

  • Portfolio Manager (9) $1,648
  • Vice President (23) $474
  • Director/MD (12) $423
  • NA (6) $322
  • 3rd+ Year Associate (24) $287
  • Manager (4) $282
  • Engineer/Quant (71) $274
  • 2nd Year Associate (30) $251
  • 1st Year Associate (73) $190
  • Analysts (225) $179
  • Intern/Summer Associate (22) $131
  • Junior Trader (5) $102
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (249) $85
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
3
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
4
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
5
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
6
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
7
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
8
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
9
bolo up's picture
bolo up
98.8
10
Jamoldo's picture
Jamoldo
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”