SAC Capital vs. Other Hedge Funds
Hi guys,
Newbie here. First post. Thanks in advance for helping me understand the following:
1. Who are SAC Capital (Steven Cohen)'s competitors? By capital base, perhaps, Greenlight Capital (David Eihorn), Pershing Square (Bill Ackman)? What about by some other measures?
2. I understand that SAC organizes PMs as separate small hedge funds, sort of the 'each PM runs his/her own show' type of thing. Are there significant differences, other than the regulatory probes/fines and the organizational structure between SAC and its competitors?
3. Fact: 70% of trades are now done by algorithm trading. Question: Will execution traders be bumped out by machines in the next few decades?
Soontobemonkey
*Point72 Asset Management
@ MIchael-Artiles1: I know but I still think that SAC was a better name.
Get a job there first. Then ask about relative strengths.
I'll address number 3 only. I am a fundamentals based value-oriented analyst at a l/s hedge fund. From my perspective, algorithm based trading creates a ton of investment opportunities for traditional guys like me. They trade in seconds within earnings results being released without processing the facts or looking at the "bigger" picture or long-term prospects ie: potential opportunities in the pipeline, changing market dynamics, management, etc.. etc... the list could literally go on forever. I.M.O. they make my job a lot easier. In downturns, everything is on sale. In upturns, my holdings appreciate. No complaints here. Replace us though? No. Not gonna happen.
Competitors... everyone is competing with everyone, but with no one directly, if that makes any sense. If I were to think about competition, I'd think about who have similar styles / who'd be likely to poach each others' talent. Greenlight and Pershing might compete for talent (deep fundamental analysis) whereas I think the broad view of SAC/P72 is for teams that make faster money in all environments. So a good example of competition for P72 would be Millenium.
From the perspective of someone looking to get a job, the differentiators would be "prestige" (will having this name on my resume help me) and asset base. If you mean are these HF really differentiated, no, they aren't. There's some level of improved technology / risk management as you move up in AUM to more established firms. More AUM also means better access to management teams, better treatment by sell-side (meeting requests, etc), so some advantage there. If you are talking about HFT / Algorithmic trading firms, then yes, talent and technology at Renaissance or institutional learning at Bridgewater are real differentiators.
Next few decades? Probably. Most finance roles will look hugely different in the next few decades.
@jcpenny: ...to get there, i need to prepare for the interview now, don't i
@jcpenny: ...to get there, i need to prepare for the interview now, don't i
@WhaleofWallStreet: Cool stuff from the perspective of an analyst. Thanks!
@grosse: Think you got all three head-on. It really helps, thanks!
I would define SAC's competitive set as the equity-driven multi-manager platforms. They all run high levels of leverage offset by very tight risk controls (i.e. drawdown stops and minimal beta leeway). Millennium, Citadel GE, Surveyor, Balyasny, Carlson, Visium, etc. Each team runs as an autonomous mini hedge fund with their own strategy. Most of the funds have a structure where best ideas can be raised up into a "big book".
SAC's main advantage over its competitors is its superior fee structure (3/50 in the days when they ran outside capital). Thus payouts for their teams are generally bigger than competing shops. For this reason, they historically got great talent, although I would imagine that the controversy has made things more difficult. On the negative side, SAC was famous for having a very cutthroat culture where everyone hated each other.
Taking a step back, there are pros and cons of the multi-manager model vs. single-manager. Multi-manager shops are great in that everyone gets to be a PM. Senior analysts also have a lot of discretion and are basically running their own mini-books within their sectors. People can do very well and get paid. The flipside is that there is zero buffer if you don't perform. The door is constantly revolving. At each of these firms, there are a handful of big teams that consistently crush it, and everyone else kind of gets churned and burned, because they don't 1) have a strong investment process and 2) get enough scale to do well (i.e. hiring enough analysts to do deep work and getting cross leverage). When you go to management meetings, you can tell who is coming from the multi-manager shops because they are usually the ones asking detailed modeling questions (trees over the forest).
Single-manager shops generally do much deeper work and have the capital base to take the heat on concentrated long-term positions. Greenlight and Pershing Square, the two that you mentioned, fall into this category. Working at places like that will give you a more stable career trajectory (not to say that consistent performance isn't paramount, but there is more rope when compared to a multi-manager shop, especially once you've proven yourself). Single manager shops offer much better training because hiring someone is more of an investment for them. Realistically, most analysts at a single manager shop will never become a PM themselves. That doesn't mean that they can't become respected investors that have a lot of discretion within their area of expertise. At some shops analysts can make equal or more than PMs at multi-manager shops. It really depends. Hedge funds are not standardized like the sell-side. Some shops pay much more than others for an equal level of performance, there is a certain level of randomness to it, when looking from the outside.
Great post. But when you say "When you go to management meetings, you can tell who is coming from the multi-manager shops because they are usually the ones asking detailed modeling questions (trees over the forest)." - I can't tell if you mean that as a good or bad thing. Care to elaborate?
Another thing I will add is that if you are at a big multi manager shop that has multiple teams for each sector, it does seem a little silly at times, because if all those analysts were able to work together and share ideas instead of being siloed off just working for their PM, I'd think that would produce better results and generate a true "best ideas" portfolio.
I did not intend the bit about management meetings to be either positive or negative, but just indicative of a shorter-term focus. Depends on preference, but it goes without saying that a shorter time horizon tends to be more stressful.
Yes, there is a lot of duplication at multi-manager shops that is inefficient, but they grew up a certain way and I doubt they will ever change. I would imagine that some firms are better than others about encouraging dialogue between teams that cover the same stocks, and personal relationships would play a big role in the degree of communication.
SAC Capital - Interview process seems rigorous (Originally Posted: 10/02/2013)
Hello,
I had a quick question about SAC Capital. They're recruiting at my target for analysts to assist portfolio managers and senior research analysts with research.
The interview process seems very rigorous and it seems like the role leads into a research-type position where a first year can move up and begin to source/research/present their own ideas in the long-term.
Does this seem like a lucrative position? I have always heard that entry level positions into hedge funds didn't equip the entering analysts with the skillset a job at a bank's research/ibd would so I was wondering how this stacks up in comparison.
thank you for your replies
Thanks for the reassurance. Just so I have a ball park figure, what range does an execution trader make on the buyside, say after 2 years on the job?
Google "SAC Capital"
Google "Anjunabeats"
I am well aware of their current legal issues - however, I do remember reading that the firm is still an excellent place to work if I'm not mistaken.. can anyone shed some recent light on this?
thanks
Make sure you're well versed in the market mechanics of unwinding $8 billion in trades.
SAC will just turn into a big prop shop / family office if they're prosecuted unless the gubmint forces them to close entirely
I was recently talking to one of the leading hedge fund managers (the guy is an alum), asking how could I break into HF industry & work my way to the top. The way he replied, I felt it was more of a word of caution - "Don't work for HFs right outta school. First go do some consulting or banking. And if you could make it to the top 3 B-School programs, great! Else THEN try to break into HF."
i still never understood how b-school helps with HF.
@slowdive: Thanks for the in-depth comparison!
SAC Capital - Different funds managed by the firm (Originally Posted: 10/22/2012)
Trying to find out the different funds managed by SAC, along with there annual performance. Does anyone know a good resource for this?
I don't know of such a resource, but SAC's walking on thin ice. If you're looking for a job, I'd look elsewhere.
I intern at a FoHF and this seems to be the consensus on SAC as well. I believe it is related to insider trading issues.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-02/ex-sac-capital-manager-tells-f…
^Explain yourself. That sounds like rumors to me. How can SAC be on thin ice they have billions .
Galleon also had billions when Rajan and company were nailed. It seems that Steve Cohen has really gotten himself into trouble this time as some indicted inside traders from SAC are now pointing fingers directly at him saying that he told them to share the tips with him and the rest of the company.
Cohen had been safe from all the previous convictions against former SAC traders because he managed to protect himself via the signature SAC structure where each PM traded their own portfolios independently and supposedly completely insulated from and unaware of what other PMs were doing. It is gonna be hard to him to spin himself out of this situation however now that the prosecutor has found a direct link between him and the convicted PMs.
SAC Capital - Promote from middle office to front office (Originally Posted: 04/06/2007)
Does anybody know if they promote from middle office to front office? After how long in MO? Fixed Income Senior Middle Office Analyst position. Thx
I heard that another Hedge Fund, Nut Investments was trying to buy SAC Capital in order to create a new firm called NUT SAC Capital.
Should be an interesting deal.
I hope you're being sarcastic. That may the strangest notion I've ever heard. Why would Steven Cohen sell his cash cow? For that matter, who could he sell one of the biggest hedge funds it the world to? Not some no-name firm called "Nut Investments."
Who have you heard this from, exactly?
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