So I'm sure everyone here (at least those of you haven't been living under a rock) heard about this story. I may be a little late but I still wanted to start a discussion. Obviously WSO is predominantly male, but I'm not playing into the whole "if you're not a woman you can't even have an opinion on women's issues". So if the women here would like to share their thoughts that would make it a much more productive discussion; I, and the majority of the users here will never know what it's like to live as a woman, so perspective from all sides is welcome. Do you believe this figure that's been floating around saying 97% of women will be touched sexually without their permission at some point in their life (or something like that)? What precautions do you take? And for the men, assuming you aren't Patrick Bateman, how do you feel about this? Not the case specifically, but the general awareness it's brought. Do you think women are overreacting? There are so many sides to the argument of women's safety, rape, false accusations, victim shaming, etc. that maybe, just maybe we can talk about in a civilized manner if everyone can act like adults (I'm looking at you financeabc, Ozymandia, and Milton Friedchickenman). So let's try to stay away from politics and actually have a productive discussion, because let's be honest, this is one of this issues that no one is truly neutral one. Let's keep the MS to a minimum
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I don't think it's an overreaction, ultimately some guys will always not give a shit or cross the line. I don't know what the solution is or even if a solution would be anything more than just a mitigator (vs. a real fix) just given nature of man...and of course the absurd dispersion in female rights / treatment when you look across the world. At any one time, probably 70% of countries will have suboptimal treatment of this issue, or most issues if we're really being honest
Monty Burns , so far I´ve really liked your content, sad to say that I was mistaken. There are no, or very little, women on WSO, and you know that. Civilized males are the only type of male we yuppies will ever interact in a normal context with, and I find it highly unlikely that the vast majority of them will ever do anything worse to a woman than belittle or ogle her a bit. That is certainly not great, but really harmless in a bigger context. Your posts reeks of self-congratulatory virtue-signalling, and there is little we need less in this world than more self-hating beta males who think they can climb in the virtue pyramid by self-flagellation. If you really want to help "women" (Which women? All of them? Abused ones? Be more precise ffs) then volunteer at a shelter - oh no, wait, you can´t, you´re male. Your gleeful self-hatred will not appeal to those who truly have reasons to fear males.
MS goes in all fields.
tagging feature isn't working. trying to tag @infodominatrix unsuccessfully it seems
to answer the questions -
do you believe it? yes I believe it, if you've ever been to a nightclub you know this to be true.
what precautions do you take? I'm married and faithful now, so it's not hard, before that I had it drilled into me early and often by women in my family (for whatever reason, I grew up in a family where the women were stronger and more educated than the men by and large) that no means no, always ask for permission, and other lessons on how to be a gentleman. I also don't willingly put myself into situations where temptation is likely, and if I can't avoid it, clean the pipes or clear my head in some other way to keep hormones at bay. another thing is to always have in mind this idea "what if what I'm about to do/say gets back to my mom/grandma, how would I feel about that?" and conduct yourself accordingly
how do you feel about this? it's disgusting obviously, like other disgusting parts of society, but since I'm not a cop, the best I can do is try to lead other men and be a good example, with hopes that it'll change over time (legislation ain't what fixes this). we'll see
do I think women are overreacting? as always, the truth is more nuanced. certainly some women are overreacting, some are appropriately reacting, and some are underreacting. I don't see what the point of this question is, every instance should be evaluated in isolation rather than blanket statements like believe all women or that people are overreacting.
in closing, what can men do? for starters, have in your mind my mantra of whatever you're about to say/do getting back to your mother/grandmother. and if it's bedroom talk, seek consent early and often, and also lose the idea that all women must put out on the first date. if's up to you to prove that you're good enough. also, this should be the case for all interactions, but don't assume someone's view of what's appropriate/inappropriate matches your view. what this means in practice is keep the compliments away from appearance in professional settings, keep compliments tasteful in social settings "you look really beautiful in that outfit" is a lot better/safer than "how'd you get all that ass in them jeans" or "you MUST do squats, DAMN!"
and what can women do? well I'm not one so I don't have an opinion, I'll just regurgitate what my wife said: some men are creepy, don't talk to them or make it obvious that you're uncomfortable and exit the situation. she's been in situations that I'm sure most attractive women have been in - guys staring at her or grabbing lower back/ass at a bar unsolicited. she is very type A, and if she sees someone staring she'll go "WHAT? do I have something on my face? the fuck are you looking at?" and in the one instance I've seen a guy grab her ass unsolicited, she slapped his hand away and before I could intervene 2 of my USMC friends already "escorted" the man out of the bar, so YMMV. she's also very traditional and unapologetic when it comes to attire, saying things like you shouldn't show cleavage if you don't want men to look, and so on. just one woman's opinion, but who am I to argue?
Woman here, I agree that most women have been touched sexually without permission at least once in their lives even ones that aren't extremely attractive (men like to rate so like girls that are 5's). It has been almost every time I went to a crowded bar (pre-covid) where at least me or one of my friends was just grabbed inappropriately from some rando when we are just walking through a crowd/trying to get to the bathroom. It's fucked up but at this point I'm used to it especially when certain kinds of men get drunk, they get touchy. Normally I just slap their hands away or shove them giving them a dirty look. It isn't right at all what a handful of men do and it being normalized, but I don't see how they can change tbh
What does the Sarah Everard have to do with women being sexual assault?
Thats what I don't get, there's a massive assumption that the killing is sexually motivated... but I've not read anywhere of any evidence of that?
Virtue signallers on Instagram: "WOMEN DESERVE TO GO OUT AND FEEL SAFE", ok, but men are what 2-3x more likely to be murdered. Given, men are probably the majority of murder perpetrators, but you have to live in reality and realise there are always going to be people with mental illness/low iq/high on drugs/excessive testosterone/combination of all, that means that bad things will happen to good people. It's been like that since the dawn of time, life isn't fair. Nature isn't fair either. We live in a relatively crude society, and humans are still in their infancy in the grand scheme of things.
I think a huge problem with what your'e talking about is the porn industry, and the fact a lot of men can sexually gratify themselves at the touch of a button. Constantly chasing the dopamine. They get addicted to seedier and creepier porn, and eventually act out their fantasy. But some women are to blame on this front, by sexually objectifying themselves on onlyfans and instagram, posing in a sexual way, must send subliminal messages to people.
Anyway, that road she got snatched on, I used to jog down all the time, lived around the corner. Very busy, even at night, which surprised me when I heard the story. Also, I used to jog around Clapham Common at night, and I found, to my surprise, it's some sort of gay orgy meet up. I seen a massive bald black dude walking around naked from the waist down, with a leather waistcoat and a fucking handbag, and other people creeping around in the bushes. So I googled it and found gay guys meet there. Obviously didn't know this before hand *looks around nervously*
True, men are robbed/murdered at statistically higher rates than women. However, these incidents are results of individuals being in the wrong place at the wrong time - men aren't robbed or murdered for being men. In the context of this thread, women are followed, stalked, harassed, subject of disparaging comments, murdered, etc. simply for being a woman. The Atlanta spa shootings being an example of this; the shooter had hatred for Asian women and blamed them for his "temptations." This creates a tremendous amount of unease for women everywhere, knowing that we can be attacked at any time just for being female.
While the exact circumstances surrounding Sarah Everard's death haven't been publicly released (at least based on what I've read so far), there's been worldwide concern that it was sexually motivated and she was targeted being a girl walking alone. Unfortunately, given loads of past similar cases that ended in sexual assault, this is a valid concern.
Women are to blame? This is insinuating that it's a woman's fault that a man behaves badly because she acts/dresses in a certain way and easily leads to victim-blaming in legitimate situations of sexual assault ("she dressed like a slut, she deserved it..." etc.) Sex workers promoting themselves or whatnot on Onlyfans is a different topic, but most women don't dress/act a certain way because they seek to be outright sexually objectified.
And just a general disclaimer, I believe that the majority of women understand that not all men are out to harass/assault women. I certainly know that. Unfortunately, women don't know which men will, on any given day (for god's sake a cop was charged in connection with her murder). Imo, better not to take a gamble on safety and remain vigilant at all times until something changes.
Lol let's stop with the PC bullshit here and recognize reality. Biology has programmed us to do one crucial thing: reproduce. Men esp are programmed to spread around their sperm everywhere possible. So when a woman does 'dress a certain way/act a certain way' for many men this is a signal of sorts. Have you seen nature documentaries? Sexual assault is one of the most common things there is. Female ducks literally have like a dozen false canals for when male ducks try and bang them to avoid getting pregnant (and male ducks get hard and finish in like 2 seconds lol). We as humans pretend we're above it all but at our base we are animals.
Is touching a woman without consent morally wrong? Absolutely. But to not recognize the reality above is to not recognize the true root of this problem. That's why as much as I think you can make some of this stuff go away with proper education, some will always remain. It's like a ladder where you can climb 80% putting in a lot of effort but there's a ceiling above that preventing you from getting to 100%. Not to mention the obvious that nothing ever really lasts forever, most societies at any one point in time will have this problem / it will be a lot worse. Maybe I'm just a cynic here but it's just what history & the nature of man tells us
What are you yapping on about? Men aren't killed for being men...? Of course they are lmao Black on Black crime? Bloods and crips? Helllllooo??? Anyone home? Thats got to be the stupidest comment I've heard all year.
I'm afraid that because "there's been worldwide concern" that the Sarah Everard murder was sexually motivated, doesn't mean it was. All you know is that she is a women and he is a man. This is part of the problem. There was also "worldwide concern" that that cop murdered George Floyd because he was black.... then the bodycam video comes out 6 months later... then the pathologist report comes out... then it gets a bit awkward for all the SJW's shouting BLM.
I said a huge problem, not the only problem. Yes women sexually objectifying themselves on social media is a huge problem. Still not sure what you want us to do about low iq/mentally ill men who sexually assault women.
Anyway, equal rights, equal fights.
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