Sell me on why I should become a trader.
I've been debating what route to take for quite some time now, I can't seem to form a defenitive liking for one field while completely ommiting the idea of working in another. Right now, I'm leaning towards IB but trading is also registring with me and I can't seem to shake it off, even though I feel maybe I prefer Ib - it's like I'm a rope and two entities are pulling from both sides! I'm a rising sophomore so I have plenty of time to decide, supposedly. I'll be doing a month of oil and gas Ibanking next week and am just wrapping up a rotational at another IB, sadly I didn't get to work on the trading floor, worked in IBD,PE, Direct investment, Investment research and now advisory.
Can someone tell me why I should be a trader? can someone make a case for it? - I enjoy watching CNBC and following the markets and I trade on my own account but still can't fom a defenitive preference.
P.S - my main concern with trading is being pigeonholed into one area of expertise and not having the options of moving into other lines of work like PE/corporate development/IB.
The days of trading are over. The era of Quants is at hand.
Why is that?
indeed. why be a trader? I can't sell my rolls of silk and crates of spices at the prices I want anymore. I'm finished.
Be a nice banker and leave the traders alone.
Trading is fun.
I think the concept of being pigeonholed doesn't matter if you're not seeking to career-shift. If trading is what you like and what you end up being good at, then that's the right place to be. Also, being home on weekends is nice.
if you need to have someone tell you.. its not for you
I'm sure you were born to be a trader, oh prodigal son. You're telling me you didn't feel confused at such a critical time ? Only a fool would deny himself the opportunity to weigh career options. Thinking forward and assessing whether I want to be 35 and still trading is a valid concern.
A lot of the assholes who post here instantly lose their ability to sympathize with students once they start working. Figuring out which path is for you at some point always comes down to wanting someone to tell you to want something that you don't really think you want but that you want to want with more confidence. I was in a similar situation a week ago ordering at Ruby Tuesday.
no but its a job. If I dont like it, I can resign. No one asked me to map out the rest of my life at 21 years old. Did I look at different things, yes and also tried a few out. Only a fool would think they know what they wanted for the rest of their life as a "raising soph"
so let me guess you are 20 years old and thinking will I make 200k by 24 or 25? Pre MBA PE makes xyz and I can buy this when I am 25... hhmmm...
let me give you a little advice..make good grades, do a few internships and explore... whatever presents itself when you grad then grow a pair and give it a try.... i started my career in fixed income trading... now in energy... as the market changed, I changed...
you can look at whatever you like but also think what would be the new new thing in 3-5 years? can you see it now? then hop on that shit and ride it to the wheels fall off.. when I was coming out of college... str finance was the rage on the street.. now everyone i know in that market was laid off in 2007-2008... so good luck
and if your trading at 35 I would only be concerned at what to do with the bonus I would be earning... start at 22-23 and make it to 35 trading would mean you are pretty good and making some pnl for your firm, a concern i would love to have.
on the flip side.. can you sell me on what I should have for dinner? I really want sushi but can you make a case for thai?
CNB90, Monty09 has a point. You'll see this forum has tons of topics on IB exit opportunities. Then a curious kid asks about trading exit opps.
Note: Trading IS THE EXIT OPP from trading. No one is asking you to plan your entire life before you leave your teens, but if you do not see yourself trading at 35, it would be ill-advised to start on that path because you are seriously limiting your other career paths.
So when Monty09 says "if you need to have someone tell you...its not for you", it's a sage piece of advice becase when your 40, your goal should be MD on the trading desk or Global Head of Trading because that's one of the few roles your qualified to fill (on the sell-side at least).
Having said that, I'll answer your original question and "make a case for trading"
1) If you're passionate about the markets, you'll LOVE going to work every day. The happiest people I've seen on the trading floor are FX traders who look forward to being at the desk at 5:45 am-6:15 am. Nothing is better than being paid to do what you love
2) The earnings "potential" exceeds almost any other path
3) You have the luxury of being grounded in the sense that you're not travelling, you can build a stable family life
4) You wont have to look your son in the eyes and explain why you miss every soccer game
5) You can advance very quickly; a hierarchical structure is essentially non-existent
6) If you're good, you do not have to haggle with respect to compensation. The firm knows they have to pay you otherwise the shop down the street will.
7) There is essentially a numerical value to your worth. In other occupations, how valuable you are to the firm can be a very subjective matter. In trading, you're worth can be printed out on one line at the end of the fiscal year. (This is a good thing if you're the one performing well; not so much if the 3rd year analyst is kicking your ass as a VP)
cnb90 I understand where you're at because I'm having trouble deciding as well. I'll be on a trading desk this summer, so I'll get a feel for what that will be like. Next summer I'm hoping to do something in IB to see what thats like, and after I've experienced both I'll be able to make a better decision.
Seeing as how you already have a little experience in IB, you should aim to get some experience on a trading desk for your next internship and then you'll know firsthand which is best for you.
How hard is it to start/transition into a hedge fund after about 7 years of trading? i.e. can I become , say a market strategist? a PM? possibly an analyst after say 2/3 years of trading?
FXTrader - that was a great post, I think you have some great points, points that caused this confusion to start with before of their validity.
Think about this logical at all, why on earth would someone who trading for 7 years want to goto a hedge fund and be an analyst? Unless that hedge fund is basically the exact same industry and job that trader is in and allows for more opportunities or pay.
Trading leads to Trading...When you trade FX you goto FX funds...When you trade energy you goto Energy funds...when you trade bonds...you goto fixed income funds...
get out of college first buddy before you go starting your HF... yes people have started in college but you are not one of them..how do I know? cause you would not have to ask.. here is an example.. i played baseball... no one needed to tell me I could hit a 93 mph fastball.. I KNEW I could hit one... which brings me to my first post... if you have to ask.. its not for you
Oh trust me, I KNOW I can start a hedge fund. I have my own little fund already, very small and I'm the only investor, but alas its doing well. I was just asking about the real life climate - obviously I don't know how the financing process goes exactly. I didn't want to come across as an arrogant know it all.
Are you not in second year or like 19/20? Heres an idea next summer apply to a trading internship instead of a flipping banking one, then go work as an assistant and see what the traders do all day. That is what a flippin internship is for.
Believe it or not that is what internships are for...
Are you going to post on here, next time if your thinking about taking a shit or not?
1 - I said analyst after 2/3 years of trading. 2 - I would rather make up my mind before SA recruiting so that I can build a solid defined path. a trading SA role is a definite possibility I have not ruled it out. Getting banking internships after freshman year are rare to come by and jumping at the opportunity was more than equitable. 3 - how big was the stick you sat on?
I'll break this down for you one more time. When you do an internship on a trading desk the first thing you want so badly is a direct desk offer so you know for SURE you will be a trading analyst once your start FT. Once you start FT the main thing you want is a full-time offer from the desk the quicker you can to not be a rotating associate the happier you are. No one wants to be the 3rd year analyst no one has taken, no one has given a chance to prove themselves yet.
Man you have a ton of internships ahead of you, a banking one wil youl allow to land a trading one next summer then you can decide.
Lemme give examples of my friends/former classmates:
1) Did 1 banking, 1 consulting and 1 trading internship. The trading internships was last in bonds. He ended going to do IBD M&A.
2) Did 1 trading, 1 banking, 1 equity reserach buyside hedge fund. Know where she is now? Law school she ended up not even liking capital markets.
3) Did 1 in Chicago equity derivatives, 2 Fixed income, and finally ended up in NYC doing "private placement sales". He ended up choosing IBD M&A, also he talks to talk about how bankers/PE are so cool and trading is weak.
4) Did 3 Trading internships. By the third and last one he hated Trading, turned down a BB in London. To go do Consulting at a non-MBB.
5) Did 3 Trading internships. Ended up at top BB, trading a product he loves and is already seen as a golden boy.
Now is person 5, way ahead of the rest? Somewhat ofcourse he knows his product inside out, he loves trading and was born to trade. Are the other 4 eff'd? No they are crazy smart and in very very good jobs or a great law school. Did they all end up in trading? No, but they all did try it for 4months at some point.
The only way you can decide if its for you or not, is to give a shot and then decide.
That makes sense. I think you're right, It can't hurt to experiment. Thanks for that, you and FXTrader have really been helpful.
I am the 5th person by the way
I feel like one reason why a lot of my peers (and people on WSO) are obsessed with exit-opps is because up till this point in our lives everything has been a series of progression where you move from one stage to next. Do well in high school -> Go to a good college -> Go into IBD/S&T. This is why the first instinct is to find the next step from there.
Once you are in trading, you are in your end step. Its time to perform so you can move up in world, not lateral into the next one. Unless you are tired of it or you fail at it....you can go to business school then.
Also for the love of everything holy, I really hope you never utter the phrase "I KNOW I can start a hedge fund" in real life. You really have a scalable strategy that will allow you to draw returns in 7 figures? 8 figures? 9 figures? Do you know what sort of infrastructure you need in to maintain your fund when you are having a hard time conceptualizing an internship decision? You have the contacts that trust you with boatloads of money?
Because if you don't have those, you don't have a hedge fund. You have a nitwit with an e-trade account punting around APPL shares in boxers.
+1....good post...
You should really be glad the people on this site are nice. Monty's actually trying to tell you something, and if you'd stop being an for just 1 second, you'd see it. The fact is, there are plenty of people out there who absolutely know they want to be in trading. I'm not criticizing you for asking questions to try and figure out what you want to do. That's actually great that you're being proactive early on.
At the same time, drop the attitude. Just because you're anonymous online doesn't mean you get to act like a brat. Try going to an interview and asking the interviewer to convince you that you want to be a trader. Good luck with that.
I have a summer associate internship at a BB as a fixed income strategist. But S&T is what I really want to do.
Few reasons I am hesitant to start at S&T: (1) don't think I know enough to start taking on risk, (2) think that I can learn more as a strategist, since focus tends to be slightly longer-term and have to think more deeply about trade ideas, (3) better exit opportunities in case S&T doesn't work out - more face time with clients, learn about investing more than just market making
I have no hesitation in doing S&T. I am trying to figure out the optimal route to be successful at S&T.
Are these fears misplaced? Should I try to go for full time S&T out of school?
I think those are healthy fears and ones everyone faces as a career changer however only you can answer if the reward is worth the risk
Are you a market maker or prop energy trader? If your market making would I be right to assume your permitted to take do some prop trades on the side?
how to get an internship as a strategist/researcher as opposed to market maker? I'd be interested in a role where you would think more long-term about trade ideas, as opposed to purely split second decision making
No surprise, most of those former guys I have heard are top notch. Not their fault no one understood how power tolling deals worked, and just followed the crowd.
yeah... at one point most bb's energy trading group was headed by a dirty d or crooked e guy....
If I'm not mistaken, OP posted not too long ago advising someone to stick their money in bonds. If you've arrived at this opinion after watching CNBC and following the markets - or if you think this despite not having been stuck under a rock for the past year or more - then I wouldn't advise you to become a trader - you're probably better suited for something along the lines of pushing papers.
And a lot of the posters have got it right - if you're the next Eddie Lampert, you're probably not going to be asking these questions, especially on an online forum. For those of us that are just getting started, a little modesty goes a long way....
SB to monty for being a standup guy and helping out despite being unnecessarily shat on.....
When I first got interested in finance I got interested in the markets. I started trading, watching CNBC, and reading books on the subject. I still find mind self following the markets, especially now that I don't have school work to keep me busy in the afternoons (Thus why I made a bad recommendation a while back related to bonds, I hadn't followed the market carefully, mid terms). Thank you all for your comments, I will have to take a step back and assess my situation and what makes me happiest and what I'm good at. I've had success trading for my own account and success in my recent internship - we'll see how it goes comes SA recruitment time.
if you can try both as an intern I would say do that... I did investment banking, trading and credit as my 3 internships and was able to make a better choice after trying out all 3 even in a limited time
Here, my friend, you must decide for yourself what do you like to do more. At once I had to make a similar decision. And I chose trading. This decision wasn't so easy, but I have nothing to regret. Now I am a successful trader. I'm using a trading robot platform. This is in many ways helps and saves my time! So the choice only is yours.
No one owes you anything in life. I can't believe this is even a thread.
When I was on the prop desk many years ago and I was losing money, I thought to myself, why the **** am I doing this?", "I should have listened to you, mom and go get a regular job", but you know what...? I didn't give up. I think the first six months was the absolute hardest. I remember when my prop firm gave me a small balance sheet to trade, I hit my max daily loss in literally the first 15 or 30 minutes of the open and I believe I was trading earnings that day. I went up to the manager and I told him, "Don't lose doubt in me", walked out in embarrassment, teared up in the hallway, and went to the train station to head home . God, when I opened the front door, my mom was standing right there and asked me "How much money did you lose today?"... I was embarrassed. Eventually, I quit and for the next three months, not even bullshitting you, I spend literally 10-14 hours a day at night creating my own strategy. There were guys on the floor making $10K-$40K a day and I thought to myself, what makes these guys different from me? We're all human beings, they just know something I don't. This was probably 6 years ago... Today, I'm still in trading working at a dealer desk.
Personally, I'm trying to get back into prop. I've interviewed with FYNS two years ago (Probably my number #1 choice at the moment) and a couple other firms. I have a strategy, it's scale-able. Right now, I'm just slowly building my track record.
Should I pursue a career in trading? (Originally Posted: 06/20/2009)
Yet another one of these threads....
Hi all I am a 20 year old male going to school in Calgary, AB that wants a career in the financial sector, most notably as a trader. Yeah, big dreams. My GPA may be a little low (3.6) but I should get it up next year (fucked up freshman bad with a 2.5).
Anyways...quick question, do traders and portfolio managers, money managers, etc have actual lives outside of trading? Reason I ask this is I need to experience life to the fullest...I dont want to be one of these drones who only cares about money and is at work 16 hours a day. I know that in order to be the best at you're craft you must make major sacrifices...I don't know if I'm prepared to sacrifice my quality of life even though I have a serious passion with the financial markets.
I know a lot of you people are going to come in here and flame away for this ramble of a post and poor grammar but I quickly threw this post together...
Anyone who gives a damn, please reply ;)
Welcome to the site :)
I'm only an SA right now, but the traders here seem to live normal lives outside of work. Depending on the desk, they get in anywhere from 7-10ish and leave from like 5-7 (mostly, really depends exactly what you're doing), roughly following the markets. After that they'll go for drinks with friends/colleagues or if they're old head out to their families. Many people have nice hobbies such as SCUBA or whatnot and seem to have great times traveling etc. Weekends seem rare if ever. But yeah, its a much better life than IBD, but you also have to love what you do, as most markets people seem to.
Best of luck mate' Paradoxical
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