Value of Personal Trading/Investment Experience on Resume

How valuable/impressive is personal trading and investing in equities and forex markets on a resume if I want to go into trading or buy-side? I am doing well enough so far and am just wondering if this might eventually help me get a job or internship. For what it's worth, I'm still in college.

SlyGuy

 

I agree with Jerome. Not very impressive other than that it shows drive. Now, if you have the NUMBERS to back it up, that's a whole different story. Just trading is one thing, but succeeding is another story. I had someone in one of my intern classes who had made over $100K in the bond markets, and could prove it. He had his job locked up the first week through the internship. Many others yearning for a place on the street will have traded, this doesn't differentiate you - unless you have the numbers to back it up.

 

Well, I am doing pretty well, but I am not sure how well you'd have to do to really impress people. I started trading forex in early July/late June and am up 25-30% depending on how a current open position does between then and now. The question is, I guess, how good do I have to be for my personal trading to differentiate me from the crowd? Also, having traded equities before, I feel like FX is a tougher market cause it's 24/5 and so many different factors influence exchange rates. But would FX actually carry more weight?

 

God everybody that posts this shit talks about how they are trading forex and are up 25-30% in half a second and want to know if it can get them a job. If you think you can take essentially a purely speculative position and consistently get those returns, then by all means don't waste your time at any of these places because you are in for a rude awakening. People taking purely speculative positions tend to have negative expected values once you factor in transaction costs and opportunity costs. If you are even a fourth as profitable and consistent as you believe this early, you will truly be wasting your time working for almost any place--HF, prop, bank, whatever--because they are going to take a massive cut and not teach you anything to reach those kind of returns in speculative trading.

Here is the thing: Getting X returns really means jackshit in the short term and even medium term really (even a decade isn't enough--see tech boom where everybody was a day trading 'genius'). You could simply be extremely volatile and happen to be in an upswing or you could simply be doing well by random chance. If you had the size on that most people do even at some medium size prop shops, I don't think you could fathom taking on the risk that you are taking on now (your ass would be gone before you could even get a bonus from the PnL most likely if you have a smart risk manager). Beyond that, the trading styles are completely different for the most part. The vast majority of people aren't scalping spot forex on the screens by hand all day.

The only way I imagine ANY reputable firm caring is if you had some extensive, auditable track record that shows smooth, consistent returns for a period of time with well defined strategies that can be implemented to scale. Most important than your results would be your understanding of the markets, perhaps programming depending on the firm, and statistics.

 

Dear Jerome,

I am sorry to see how quick you are to judge. I truly feel bad for you--living your life must really be so fun I can't even fathom considering how long your message probably took you to write and how stupid it was. Please know a little more about what I invest before you make such jilted statements and rational people may one day take what you have to say seriously. Honestly, good luck. You need it.

 

SlyGuy,

By all means, if you feel you can generate the returns you do with any consistency, do not join any prop shop or S&T team. You will develop a much more significant track record with those types of returns--consistently--and make a LOT more money (at least your first 3-5 years) than you will at any bank, prop shop, or even hedge fund. Say ~20% returns in 2 months (a little less than what you claim) annualized to 120%--you will be sitting pretty VERY quickly if your idea has any scale or robustness whatsoever.

 

I can somewhat relate to SlyGuy.

Two years ago I regrettably used to make impulsive trades using that bloody investopedia account and there had been numerous months where my monthly returns exceeded 30%. Yes, I was lucky and I realized it when I'd have months where my account was down 20%. Those moments shredded any notion that I was a gifted.

However, I've been trading FX for about 6 months with a usual monthly rate of return of 8-15%. Despite the fact that I've been trading FX live for only 6 months, I am fairly certain that my returns are not heavily attributed to luck. Most of my system is mechanical, yet I also do make some discretionary trades. And no, I don't trade the news, and neither do I use much leverage.

I win here, I win there...
 

I am not a brokerage recruiter but here are my 2 cents about resume in general : Without seeing your resume, I can't tell how well worded/specific your objective section is...if it's very general like "i m seeking an internship in financial services" then it's too broad and ppl will just skip ur objective section. (space on resume is valuable...) if you abs have nothing else to discuss...then it's worth it (almost like a personal/independent project) IF you have gained some kind of experience/understanding - i.e. "25% profit in 9 month" or something u can elaborate on. People want to know "what is the result of ____"

 

dont elaborate unless you have like 30%+ returns, and if you are underperforming the market....then definitely dont put on the resume...plus this is a pwm internship, not a trading internship, they care more about your personality than your trading skills, or lack of

 

Do it even if you lost 50%

It shows you have a genuine interest in the market and at least some financial experience

I assume you read the wsj + other publications --> list them also

I guarantee bankers will talk to you about it during interviews, and you do not need stellar returns -- just talking points.

The one question you need to know how to answer--> "where is the economy going?" You should have a good answer because your view on the economy should be directing your investments.

 

You should own at least some bonds to get some exposure. I agree that bond ETF's are a fraud (since the mkt returns never match net asset value).

Check out some bond mutual funds -- just to get exposure and to have talking points for future interviews

You will also hedge out some risk with some bonds.

If it sounds too boring --> look at the ytd returns of the emerging market sovereign bond funds

 

Since you are under performing, I would only list it as a hobby. Since you don't have enough capital to daytrade with - look at other asset classes to dabble into: options, futures, and forex. Futures and forex don't have the day trading bs to contend with and dabbling once and a while into options can help pad your performance for some swing trading ideas.

 

If you are so worried about knowing the stock market. Just subscribe to the morningstar.com , they have a 14 day trial membership. They have equity reports on all major US stocks, just read and comprehend. Grab some big blue chips companies and learn about them, if you are in the US I would recommend at looking at some corporations that are in your state, this way you already have some background info on them.


Remember, you will always be a salesman, no matter how fancy your title is.

- My ex girlfriend (and one of the many reasons she is my ex)

 

When I first started, yes. But I do so many trades a day now that I don't write on paper anymore. You I should actually print out my watchlists and let the interviewers look at it during an interview?

 
trader530:
When I first started, yes. But I do so many trades a day now that I don't write on paper anymore. You I should actually print out my watchlists and let the interviewers look at it during an interview?

If you were going to a family member or friend to raise capital, how would you present it? Would say make it max 1-2 paragraphs outline your results (hopefully you made money), your overall strategy and 2 main things you use to put on a trade.

Then in the interview explain one trade in depth when you show the person this summary. "I saw XYZ indicators at 9am and got in at ABC level for DEF shares and held till blah blah, I do these kinds of trades various times a day etc...

Make sure your example ties to your overall strategy. Do not explain your trades on paper, being able to explain your thinking step by step and disciplined to connect to the strategy you have outlined will impress someone. Most hiring managers just want someone who can think right, they can teach that person to make $$$ afterwards but you can't teach the raw ability.

 
kelvin.g:
Go get your portfolio of tradings done, and break a leg! you deserve a great job.

Wrong no one deserves shit. That is the attitude that fucks people....I deserve xyz.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 

personal trading or paper trading are what you make of them. If you have detailed records of your trading, a log of how you came up with ideas, detailed portfolio statistics for how you did, etc then you can really impress people...as someone who loves trading i would ALWAYS look at something like that if it was given to me by a junior person. At the very least, i might get some ideas...i often find that young people wo dont read all the research and are just starting can sometimes provide unique insights just because they arent a part of the normal thought-stream.

If however you just kicked around some stocks, without any real deep thinking about it and dont have a good log of what you did other then a few e-trade statements then it can not only be unimpressive, it can actually be a negative because it gives an insight into how you will handle a "real job".

So definitely bring in a book of charts and ideas if you have it...in fact if you PM me maybe I will read it for you and critique...

 

missing a year of because of a disability - do I put that on my cover letter or resume? or do I only answer the question if interviewers bring it up in an interview?

 

I will bite eve...even though I hope you are kidding. If you dont have any skin in the game no one fcking cares about your performance. Your example is akin to having cyber sex with a "10" in an online chat room and then bragging to your friends that you smashed a Ford model. Dont embarrass yourself by including that information (the fact that you engage in cyber sex). Best of luck to you.

 
GoldPeak:

You'd have to be doing something remarkabl for it to catch anyone's attention.

Everyone has been making money in this economy, so simply returning a positive yield isn't getting you a job.

I dont necessarily agree with this statement. I think trading on a personal account can be beneficial when it comes to higher in that it shows you have at least some sort of experience, have an interest, and/or are actually committed. These are all things that employers will probably recognize if you included in your resume that you trade on a personal account. At the end of the day if a hiring decision had to be made between yourself and another individual with identical resume's, BUT you had trading experience on a personal account, I would put money on you getting hired.

It can't hurt, bottom line.

 

Prop shops, prop desks within BBs (despite the Volcker rule there are still many desks not being spun off which handle both flow and agency trading), and down the road if you perform well, hedge funds.

You won't be given such a broad mandate as "do whatever you please with this capital"... in fixed income you'll cover a selected number of names within a product class, and in equities it's probably something similar but I have no experience there.

First New York Corp. is essentially the firm that matches most closely what you seem to have in mind. Google them.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

Well the wording of your question is kind of confusing.

Pretty much no firm would give you money to trade during an internship. An internship you would just learn what it is like to be on the desk and learn what is required to be a trader.

Full-time, there are prop shops that will teach you how to trade a certain strategy and train you, while others will simply supply the capital.

Jane Street and FNY will train you based on their strategies and supply you capital. These are the best kind of firms since they teach you or set you up with an edge in the market place. Training can be 6 months to 2 years depending on the firm, but you won't be given capital for a while and you will have to trade their strategy.

Other prop shops literally give you money and let you have it. If you have a time-tested strategy and experience trading and want a much larger cut of the money without wasting your time training, then you would want a firm that simply does that. These are less respected since they don't train you and a lot of people fail unless they are able to find an edge on their own through their personal strategy.

Sort through this list going to the websites of each firm and reading about them. You'll be able to tell which firms give you training and capital versus which firms simply give you capital versus which firms require you to put up some capital (least respected).

[I tried to post the link to the website of prop firms, but the spam filter won't let me. Just google list of prop trading firms]

Also, the last sentence of your original post - No, this is nothing like what S&T at a BB is. Sales and Trading at a BB is generally flow trading for clients. Prop firms have no clients and are privately funded.

 
SkepticalOptimist:
so I've learned to cope with all the psychological problems and just stick to my strategies...
It certainly sounds interesting. And it can be taken seriously. I know hedge funds that would up being pretty successful who actually "paper traded" during the set up phase and were able to raise money from investors. However, the psychological aspect is everything. When do you take P/L and when do you cut losses? When do you panic? It's a huge difference when it is real money and that affects subsequent decisions. Also, it will matter eventually on the volume issue. In order to produce large returns in a scalable strategy, you have to consider liquidity. Prop shops want guys that can scale the book up.

I used your quote for a reason. Losing money on paper and saying you can handle it when dealing with real money is kind of like saying being you watch porn, you are an excellent lover. The real thing is totally different. No words can describe the pain that comes from watching your money disappear.

 

Thanks for all the responses guys, yeah I know the difference between watching your paper burn and just fake cash getting melted away, I really like the porn reference haha, I usually have a mental stop loss range where I will take my losses, but I've been watching the market and certain stocks for a long time and sometimes I get a "gut" feeling of what could happen, and I usually like to take fast profits at 7-15% range since I trade in and out of stocks really fast, so I thought if I'd follow this strategy there's really no "mental stress" and believe me when I say I've watched real paper disappear and I've tried to "infuse" the feeling into the competition and at the start I treated as real money so I'd literally panic if a stock dropped 1% or 2%, but I've learned to stick to my discipline.

At the same time I've got new money in a trading account and now I definitely feel the difference of just sticking to strategies and not get held back my mentality. Albeit it's less money than when I first traded, it's still money. And I believe I'm getting there.

Thanks again guys. And Sand I saw your PM, thanks a lot.

 

What product type?

I can tell you that it is not worthless/ignored. It is another tool to rank SAs and gauge your skills as a potential trader. If you have the best P&L within your group of SAs, then you will obviously stand out (in that particular exercise) and it can help you for full-time placement on the desk (if you get an offer/accept).

 

Generally, no one gives a shit about training. At the 3 different BBs/major boutiques I have worked at, no one puts much weight on it.

That said, the trading simulation we did as analysts only lasted a week, and they had the 1-month implied vol turned up to 90, so it wasn't realistic at all (HUGE movements all of the time with almost no liquidity in the market they provided).

If the simulation is realistic, though, and you only have 1-3 major news events per day, and you actually have to sit in front of your computer for 10-12 hours in-a-row to be sure that you're there for the events, then that might have some value to a senior trader. I seriously doubt they will run a simulation this way, though. Who has the patience for it? And is it any good for the kids going into, say, structuing, sales, strategy, capital markets, banking, lev fin, or research? Maybe it is, but it's not as useful to most graduates as learning some theory/accounting, so that's what they're going to focus on in training.

Basically, so long as most of you show up every day, and no one tells the trainer to fuck himself/herself, nothing you do in training is likely to get back to senior management. Why? Because senior management has bigger problems than hearing about some HR report on the conduct of the new analyst intake during training.

 
brotherbear:
Generally, no one gives a shit about training. At the 3 different BBs/major boutiques I have worked at, no one puts much weight on it.

That said, the trading simulation we did as analysts only lasted a week, and they had the 1-month implied vol turned up to 90, so it wasn't realistic at all (HUGE movements all of the time with almost no liquidity in the market they provided).

If the simulation is realistic, though, and you only have 1-3 major news events per day, and you actually have to sit in front of your computer for 10-12 hours in-a-row to be sure that you're there for the events, then that might have some value to a senior trader. I seriously doubt they will run a simulation this way, though. Who has the patience for it? And is it any good for the kids going into, say, structuing, sales, strategy, capital markets, banking, lev fin, or research? Maybe it is, but it's not as useful to most graduates as learning some theory/accounting, so that's what they're going to focus on in training.

Basically, so long as most of you show up every day, and no one tells the trainer to fuck himself/herself, nothing you do in training is likely to get back to senior management. Why? Because senior management has bigger problems than hearing about some HR report on the conduct of the new analyst intake during training.

Way to go completely off topic ... OP asked about during an internship, not training.

 

I would say that the most important thing is for this person to write his cover letter in the third person. This person should be sure to speak in the third person as well at the interview when this person is describing the hypothetical trading account.

Hope this helps this person.

 
nauru:
I would say that the most important thing is for this person to write his cover letter in the third person. This person should be sure to speak in the third person as well at the interview when this person is describing the hypothetical trading account.

Hope this helps this person.

LOL! I would give you a Silver Banana, but I only have one left.

 

Okay seriously guys. I know you guys have stressful jobs and as a high schooler aspiring to be a "baller" or "cheif", I thought I could at least brighten your mundane lives a bit.... just a bit.

Replace the "one" or "person" with "I". Feeling better now?

 
zaa730:
Okay seriously guys. I know you guys have stressful jobs and as a high schooler aspiring to be a "baller" or "cheif", I thought I could at least brighten your mundane lives a bit.... just a bit.

Replace the "one" or "person" with "I". Feeling better now?

It doesn't sound like working in market-making is what you want to do. You want to go into money management or-more likely- start your own business. You can make a heckuvalot more money doing what you probably love than banking.

SAT scores probably aren't worth disclosing with a 6xx V. The 800 Q is helpful, but people will be wondering what the V and Ws are. Typically, you see SAT scores get disclosed north of 1500-1550. (I guess the new equivalent would be 2300).

 

the OP is hilarious...

btw, this person is assuming that the person in question is a upcoming freshman, if said high school senior hypothetically realized a 170k profits in a year, this humble poster would include said gains of said person's cover letter in question

Reality hits you hard, bro...
 

haha, i think the kid had enough.

ok. so yes. incorporate your SATs on your resume. It is strong enough. Talk about how you are a personal trader, your strategy etc. and stop worrying about your resume. you'll be fine.

and if you want more help. this person should hypothetically pm me.

 

are your results scalable? can you do what you did with 5k with 500k?

they are more interested in your methodology, and idea throughput. Strategies will be seen by someone else in the future and your margins competed away. Can you come up with another idea or are you a 1 trick pony.

But to answer your question, put a line in your resume, very early on, saying using 5k of capital turned it into X thousand in X months, doing 50 trades, of which 10 lost money 40 made money and your maximum exposure was Z. Your highest winner wasnt the lottery etc. and your results are chance.

 

Given your multiples, it seems that if it was a scalable strategy, you'd be able to make yourself richer inside of 10 years than almost anyone on the plant, including some fund managers. Do some research into your own method, and see if it is indeed scalable. Its kind of a heads you win tails you lose situation, as far as the hedge fund aspirations. If it is scalable, you're better off keeping all your profits and not giving some up to someone over you. If its not scalable, they are not going to be interested in you anyway. So, either way, keep at by yourself for now, and try to flesh this out a bit in terms of how far you can take it. Then, if you still feel you could do this with a few million instead of a few thousand, then you might be able to reach out to some funds.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."
 

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The only difference between Asset Management and Investment Research is assets. I generally see somebody I know on TV on Bloomberg/CNBC etc. once or twice a week. This sounds cool, until I remind myself that I see somebody I know on ESPN five days a week.
 

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