Should People Really Pick GS For a Summer Analyst Stint?
I know the title may seem absurd at first, but my reasoning is legit. Having summered at MS, I know that many kids ended up w/o an offer...GS didn't bring that many people back from their class either.
Given that fall recruiting will be essentially non-existent for the next few years, should a top candidate really pick the former banks over, say, Credit Suisse or UBS? Assuming, of course, that one is lucky enough to choose among the bulge bracket, I can't imagine why anyone would want to compete with kind of superstars (not trying to pat myself on the back here, i promise) you'll find at ms/gs for an offer.
While these firms may be marginally less prestigious, I'd imagine that one would have a better shot of actually receiving an offer. In fact, I'd argue that the four kids who got dinged from my group would have been the top summers at an inferior firm. Just a trade-off that begs consideration, I think.
What do you think?
They overhire their interns. Most SA's didn't get offers to return and are still looking for jobs.
Honestly I wouldn't do GS. I'd take CS over that.
it sounds somewhat silly at first, but your logic is pretty sound.
another perverse outcome from this market...
seriously, you could almost quantify this and take the expected value of an internship at GS, using the probability of actually working at gs full time, the benefits of doing so, and the probability of getting dinged.
holding everything else equal among the banks, its better comp and prestige would make gs the most rational choice. however, i'd argue that the advantage of being at 85 broad is clearly outweighed, in no small way, by the significantly lower chance of getting a full time offer.
Wow that was some great probabilistic analysis... not.
seriously, i would stay away from doing a GS summer as long as you have another bb offer, assuming this is your junior summer (and not sophomore). i can't tell you of how many friends i have who were literally some of the best job prospects having to scramble this fall to get full time offers with other firms. since they did have the gs name, most wound up with tons of interviews and eventual job offers...but still, not a position i'd want to be in in senior fall, especially this year, when the stress would've been nuts because the markets are so tight.
gs took douchebaggery to a whole new level with its treatment of summers this year when they wholesale told almost all their summer analysts that they wouldn't even let them know about offers until november. this was so that they could compare the quality of the people who would interview from other firms to the summer analysts (they were actively running recruiting at our school and interviews for ibd...it wasn't just a 'we need time to evaluate the state of our business' kind of thing).
so basically this is a firm that, even by wall street standards, has even less respect for its recruits. and they won't hesitate to throw you into ops either (they've been doing this lately i've heard)...
so be wary of gs, at least in this market, i'd say. they know they have the name brand to act like jerks and so they do.
it depends.
Why do the top high school football recruits choose to go to Florida / USC when there can only be one QB, a few wide receivers, etc.
Competition is intrinsic within the industry and those that choose to enter it are (usually) ambitious individuals with lofty goals. The combination of prestige and brand name is enough for "most" to aspire to become "the one".
As mentioned in a few prior posts, most people that intern at GS but do not get offers will have opportunities elsewhere. While some may argue that its reputation has taken a recent hit, I think you would be hard pressed to find a PE shop / BB firm / Top Boutique that would not grant you an interview because you interned at GS.
On a risk adjusted basis it may be more safe to go with another firm....but from my observations most will still pick the opportunity to compete at GS over a sure-fire FT offer at most other firms.
GS has high standards. What can you do. The firm has to maintain their quality and cultural fit - Hence their position today.
I worked at GS for 3 years and it was the people and culture that was one of the main attributes. Pick what you feel fit to, not necessary the position or the brand though important too.
"Given that fall recruiting will be essentially non-existent for the next few years, should a top candidate really pick the former banks over, say, Credit Suisse or UBS? Assuming, of course, that one is lucky enough to choose among the bulge bracket, I can't imagine why anyone would want to compete with kind of superstars (not trying to pat myself on the back here, i promise) you'll find at ms/GS for an offer."
Ya, you definitely don't sound like you are patting yourself on the back you superstar you. Also, your opinions on CS and UBS couldn't be more spot on...I mean, CS gave offers to roughly 20-25% of their interns in S&T and I don't think UBS was much better..WHAT A SAFE MOVE!! UBS and CS undoubtedly have less intelligent interns than GS, so if you feel like you can count to 10 backwards successfully then there should be no question you should go to cs, ubs, DB, etc where you will master your competition.
"UBS and CS undoubtedly have less intelligent interns than GS"
By far the dumbest fucking thing I have read on this website.
I was obviously being sarcastic.
I think everyone will choose GS first because the type of people that get the offer are the type A, competitive personalities that will always fight the odds and strive for the best. That being said, there is just as much merit in getting a job at CS, UBS, or Moelis, for that matter, and you can't really argue that coming out of Goldman after 2 years you'll be significantly superior to others that have worked at other banks. In the same way, you can't make the case that other banks are much safer bets because there's too many superstars at GS or MS - others have gone to Lehman, ML and an array of other banks that have let plenty of people go.
i would caveat though, that just because people ended up with other offers, they weren't necessarily at bbs or top boutiques. sometimes they were at shittier places. in fall recruiting, a lot of bbs just haven't been around to do recruiting.
so did these people end up with jobs? sure. were they worse than the opportunities they had during summer recruiting? sometimes yes, sometimes no.
i'm not saying other banks will be safer necessarily, just that GS will not hesitate to screw you. that combined with the absolute misery that all my friends who were at gs ibd claimed it was just turned me off a little bit.
but hey, they have the name brand for a reason. so if you're ok with the real chance of not ending up with an offer (and ok that it's higher than at other places), go for it.
Historically GS may have had lower offer rates than other banks. But judging from this summer, all banks had pretty low offer rates. So it was kind of dependant on luck at any rate whether or not you would get an offer, no matter what bank you were at...and next summer I don't think things will look much better. So no matter where you go, things probably won't look that great in terms of offer rates. Knowing that, you could as well go to GS - if indeed you would be so lucky to have a choice - because at least then you have the GS name on your resume no matter what and if the prestige factor holds true, then it might be easier for you during fall recruiting.
I never meant to say that CS, UBS, or whereever else have people that are dumber than GS and MS. Instead, I was only implying that their offer rates, particularly within IBD, are significantly higher. CS cut like 3 people this summer from corporate finance and ubs didn't do full time recruitment but kept almost all of their summers. on the other hand, ms and gs wrecked havok on their classes because they knew they could pick off other banks' top people during the fall. just some food for though, i suppose.
this is true for IBD but the SAs in S&T offer rate at UBS was comparable to other BBs
correct me if I am wrong, but I've head that GS only offers 1/3 of the SAs offers at the end of the summer. Definitely something to think about.
no, I don't think its that bad, but i do know that the offer rate is pretty shitty.
Don't pick the place where you think has the best odds of giving you an offer. Pick the place where you feel you fit the best with their culture/direction/work focus. If you like the team at GS then by all means go there. You will always perform better when you are working with people you like in an atmosphere you are comfortable in. You might think you have a safer bet at an offer with BoA instead of MS, but if BoA's culture sucks and the product/coverage is not what you like, then you will not perform as well.
People get way too hung up on this stuff. If you are working at a major investment bank, you will have opportunities to work pretty much anywhere you want afterward. KKR would rather have a rockstar from Wachovia than some dud from GS, trust me. Now, by and large there are more kids from Goldman at places like KKR than from Wachovia, but if you are smart enough you will get the same interviews in your second year from both places.
The last things kids should worry about with jobs coming out of college are pay and prestige. The biggest things you should look for are opportunities to learn/take on real responsibility and your fit. That's why BBs do a million interview rounds. 90% of the kids they bring in for super days can do the work; it's a matter at that point of which ones will fit the firm's culture.
I agree with gomes3pc. It's crazy to try and pick a bank based on the probability that you'll get an offer there. Why not take matters into your own hands and be a rockstar SA? If you go to a bank where you fit well, then just blow everybody away during the summer, you won't have to worry about probabilities.
i don't know about cs ibd, but a friend of mine works at cs s&t and he said their offer rate for summer interns was around 20% last summer...
That would be fairly correct. It was south of 30%
1) Go wherever you think you are best fit. Don't employ these sorts of game theory shenanigans because it's a waste of your time.
2) Given that CS and UBS are both scaling back on their US operations, not sure your chances of getting an internship and FT offer are much better there than Goldman.
A place like BOA (post-ML merger, so for summer '10) that historically has high offer rates like CS or UBS did a ton of FT recruiting this fall, so I'm not entirely sure what that means compared to other firms, but seems relatively safe for incoming 1st years.
The way I would think about it (and this may have already been said) is to look at the bank where you feel the most comfrotable getting a full time offer based on several things:
1) your network within the bank (how powerful is your network and will they go to bat for you with your staffer and business coordinator as they ask the full time folks what they think in order to make full time decisions)
2) the size of the summer class this summer, last summer and what the offer rate was last summer. HR will probably give you a bullshit number for the conversion rate so try to use your network to get a hold of this information
3) if you go to a bank that lets you be group specific over the summer then try to go to a group that hires a lot of people or is in a sector that is more recession proof (i hate that term) or a sector that will boom as soon as the economy takes off... (I'm thinking industrials or infrastructure because of the bailouts and infrastructure plans of the new regime in the white hosue)
if you're a hitter, then you want to be at the best shop you can get in to. this is the land of the film of the cream of the crop
Hate to bump up a really old thread, but would love to get your guys take on this.
Trust me Willis, I seen dis a lot before. Sexy resume name always open doors. Same position, different name, better name always win. Example: which rather go to? Cornell or Harvard? It's simple yo. Always pick best if you want to be best. Otherwise you are no more a man than Bangkok ladyboy. Even if no return offer, all those other muthafuckas wanna recruit you afterwards.
Hugs and kisses,
Chow
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