Should the US be funding the Iron Dome?

I'm sure this will be a very civil conversation all around. If you haven't heard, The Squad took heat for voting to strip Iron Dome funding, with AOC cucking last minute in typical but embarassing fashion. 

Does anyone find it odd that it's such a given that American foreign policy should be subservient to the interests of Israel? Can you think of literally any other country where a similar relationship exists? They're not even a good ally. Look at the Lavon affair, the USS Liberty Incident, the constant spying. 

For people who support this - what benefit does America receive in return for it's patronage towards Israel?

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Comments (114)

Sep 25, 2021 - 12:35pm

Considering it is a defensive platform I wouldn't say it is subserviance.  In reality all of this shit is Europes fault and they should be forced to pay for it. 

As for what the US gets out of it.  It is three primary things, intelligence, regional stability, and congress people get to go to their holiday parties and glad hand with their friends.  A very outsized percentage of the congress are Jewish.  So they have cultural ties to the country. 

Controversial
Sep 25, 2021 - 11:20pm

This is correct - it's a mutually beneficial arrangement and the zero-sum foreign policy view (specifically w/ funding as opposed to war-fighting) that some on the right have is oddly similar in logic, or lack thereof, and general retardation to the economic view of the left.  One of Trump's greatest policy achievements was the Abraham Accords - having that POS region of the world incrementally more stabilized and less likely to produce ppl who will grow up (which happens at 12 over there) to kill Americans is a win for America.  Having an open flow of intelligence w/ Israel, which is in closer proximity to the inbred fundamentalists who want to burn the west to the ground, is a win for America.  The possibility, albeit remote, of Israel spreading a western, Judeo-Christian influence in that region is a win for America.  Israel having an effective military which assassinates Iranian or Jordanian- refugee jihadis (some call them "Palestinians" - I'm not aware of this country, but am told it's between Narnia and El Dorado) is a win for America.

I like having an ally over there who would like to kill the fundamentalists and salt their earth rather than the entire region wanting to kill all westerners and salt our earth. 

I come from down in the valley, where mister when you're young, they bring you up to do like your daddy done

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Sep 25, 2021 - 1:11pm

Look at a map of US military bases around the world and you'll see exactly why they give specific countries your tax dollars. It makes sense in the context of current military strategy. Israel is a great place to run ops out of.

Same reason the US support Saudi Arabia despite that country being an insane theocracy that treats woman horribly. SA has become a little better in the last 4 - 8 years but before then it may as well have been run by the Taliban lol

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Sep 25, 2021 - 7:30pm

Lots of staging done out of Israel isn't there? 

Sep 25, 2021 - 9:40pm

The US does have a base in Israel, it is only a missile defense site but it is staffed full time by the US military.  In addition, the US stores a huge amount of weapons there.  Why would Israel not allow this?

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Sep 25, 2021 - 1:43pm

Lavon affair happened in the 50s when the US and Israel were not aligned. Israel was aligned with France at that point (see Suez crisis where the US smacked down FR/UK/IS).

All of this "military assistance" is a kick back to defense contractors, the money is contingent on the manufacturing being done in the US. Should be pretty obvious after the Afghan disaster.

https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/capabilities/products/irondo…

Sep 25, 2021 - 2:17pm

It's pretty obvious why the US supports Israel over Arab governments in terms of pure geopolitical terms.

1. They have a stable democratic government (I know Netanyahu has had some corruption problems) so no constantly collapsing dictators

2. They are Jewish which means no radical Islam problems.

3. They have a developed economy and aren't completely reliant on the price of oil

4. They have a competent military which uses lots of fancy toys from Raytheon and Lockheed Martin (Arab dictators tend to stack their armies with woefully incompetent but loyal people to stay in power)

Personally, I don't think we should be selling them offensive weapons or putting geopolitics above human rights, but the Iron Dome can only be used defensively so it's fine.

  • Associate 2 in RE - Res
Sep 25, 2021 - 6:54pm

The USS Liberty "incident" is one of the most outrageous stories in US history. I encourage anyone who isn't familiar with it to spend a couple of hours researching it. The official story that it was an accident is ludicrous.

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
Sep 25, 2021 - 7:47pm

We support Israel and Saudi Arabia, both cruel countries which do cruel things, because they allow us to project our might abroad in the Middle East. I'm honestly fine with that. The U.S. has always allowed fucked things to happen to further our power. I just believe that as long as we don't close our eyes to what we are directly or indirectly doing, it's fine. What I don't think is not fine is those people who pretend our government has never done everything wrong. 15 out of 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.  We did nothing. Shit like USS liberty and the modern-day shit their intelligence pulls is terrible. We do nothing. Israel keeps invading/bombing/discriminating against Palestine in human rights violations. We do nothing. Saudi Arabia is ruled by a fucking king and has typical Muslim rules in regards to women, Kashoggi, etc. we do nothing. I honestly don't give a fuck about this shit because I'm sure some CIA or military official has done a cost-benefit analysis and decided that it's for the best. Honestly, I have a decent amount of faith in the U.S. deep state to do what's best for our country. At the end of the day, we're all Americans and I honestly don't think politics matters to most of those career CIA/Military guys. We hear about deep state fuckups and whatnot whether it's giving guns to terrorists or a coup in Iran or Central America, but I'd be willing to bet that 9 times out of 10, the shit we don't hear about actually helps us as Americans. Honestly, if the deep state wasn't as successful as I'm making it out to be, America wouldn't be where it is today. Yes, we have internal issues like wealth distribution and shit, but globally, not sure there's anyone who can match us.

Russia has a declining population, less money, only survives off of oil which is going away, and has even more wealth inequality. China's population is going to fall off a cliff after 2030 due to the one child policy. This means the U.S. social security and baby boomer problem times 10. Will lead to social and economic unrest since too many old people and too few workers. Also, China is struggling to rein in the rich. Additionally, too many cocks and not enough pussy legitimately causes (as we have seen) a lot of social and political unrest. COVID has also exposed a lot of weaknesses in their economy. India will overtake China in population soon but its not nearly as developed so it's early days yet.

Sep 25, 2021 - 11:25pm

Chinese riddle for you - if a country that doesn't exist gets invaded, do they still use children as human shields and advocate genocide?  In all seriousness though, Israel bombing Palestine is cruel, but it's nothing compared to the heinous nuclear attack they perpetrated against the fine people of Atlantis.

I come from down in the valley, where mister when you're young, they bring you up to do like your daddy done

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 27, 2021 - 9:19am

You seem to be posting a lot of "pseudo-racist" comments. Doesn't sound like you care that Israel forcibly displaced Palestinians (or whatever you want to call them) from their homes and continues to do so. To be fair though, I've never seen someone compare the Palestinian people to fictional groups (Atlantis, Narnia), so congrats on the originality

  • Associate 2 in ER
Sep 25, 2021 - 8:03pm

Yes. It is in their strategic interest to have a strong ally in the Middle East. Also wins strong support among both affluent Democrats and Republicans. Although, I feel strongly that Europe should be on the hook for helping Israel and should be more involved since they are one of the biggest reasons Israel is what it is today..

Same can be said for the Middle Eastern countries that betrayed Palestinians previously. They should not be off the hook either. 

Sep 25, 2021 - 9:18pm

Iron Dome is a joint project of the U.S. and Israel. It's like asking if the U.S. should continue to fund NASA. Iron Dome is an ongoing research project with the missile defense technology going back to the U.S.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 25, 2021 - 10:54pm

Israel is the only "democracy" in the area. It is a positive foothold for the US in the middle east. A lot of our interests are aligned. Also, the iron dome is fucking dope!

Sep 26, 2021 - 1:14am

I don't agree with your premise. Israel is absolutely an ally, but we do a ton of stuff they don't like. The Iran deal first and foremost. US foreign policy is in no way subservient to Israel. And while we do send them a great deal of military aid, no question about that, the implicit cost of the security guarantees we've given countries like Japan and South Korea is orders of magnitude larger.

There are two big reasons we support Israel. One is moral. Israel is the only state on the planet that faces a credible risk of genocide. Its neighbor's have repeatedly and in living memory tried to ethnically cleanse Jews from that region. The Iranian government has stated it's desire to destroy Israel and is actively seeking the means of said destruction. Quite simply, we have a moral obligation to do what we can to prevent genocide. And in this case we don't have to send American troops into harms way to do it.

The other is that from a realpolitik standpoint it is far far better for us to have the Israelis in our camp. You really don't understand how dangerous they could be if push came to shove. A pretty good chunk of the USSR's weapon's researchers fled there after the Berlin Wall fell and they're widely suspected to possess thermo-nuclear weapons. You do not want to see what would happen if they felt backed into a corner. Or started selling weapons to the highest bidder.

Of course there are a great many criticisms that can be made of Israeli policy in a number of areas. Though I am hopeful that the new government, and especially the inclusion of Arab parties in it, will be a positive development. But the stakes here are quite high, and the US government has a good reason for doing the things it does in this area. Unfortunately, I think quality of public debate in this area is quite poor. In part because there is very broad political support for Israel in the US. So the major parties don't spend much time arguing about it.

Sep 26, 2021 - 9:20am

The US does not patronize Israel. If you want to know what side of a conflict the US is on, ask what would happen if we hypothetically did not exist and our desires drew no consideration. Israel would massacre Palestinians to an extent not seen in its short life that the Palestinian people would never dare to touch Israel again. Yet, they don't do that because the US State Dept/intelligence community would stop it. Some friends of Israel…..

Sep 26, 2021 - 9:31am

T30Graduate

The US does not patronize Israel. If you want to know what side of a conflict the US is on, ask what would happen if we hypothetically did not exist and our desires drew no consideration. Israel would massacre Palestinians to an extent not seen in its short life that the Palestinian people would never dare to touch Israel again. Yet, they don't do that because the US State Dept/intelligence community would stop it. Some friends of Israel…..

Unpopular opinion, but it would be best in the long-run if Israel were unleashed to go ahead and defeat Hamas and move the Palestinians out of the territories. Hard pill to swallow, but military victories bring peace.

That said, I don't consider it any great tragedy that a group of 7th century savages would be defeated. Palestinians are savages with a backward culture and no future. They hate America, the West, Christians, Jews, gays, etc. They treat women as subhuman. Why any conservative would back these mindless, violent apes over Israel boggles the mind. 

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Sep 26, 2021 - 4:18pm

Memberberries

T30Graduate

The US does not patronize Israel. If you want to know what side of a conflict the US is on, ask what would happen if we hypothetically did not exist and our desires drew no consideration. Israel would massacre Palestinians to an extent not seen in its short life that the Palestinian people would never dare to touch Israel again. Yet, they don't do that because the US State Dept/intelligence community would stop it. Some friends of Israel…..

Unpopular opinion, but it would be best in the long-run to defeat Israel and push the Jews into the sea. Hard pill to swallow, but military victories bring peace.

There, fixed that for you, you Zionist bootlicker

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  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 26, 2021 - 9:21am

Israel is a very strong ally. The US provides funding to many, many nations. We're even discussing funding for the Taliban. If you're in favor of funding for any humanitarian causes around the globe, funding Israel to block missiles fired by savages at playgrounds seems like a worthy cause to me. I believe we provide funds for many things that we have no business providing; this is not one of those

  • Prospect in CorpStrat
Sep 26, 2021 - 9:57am

Because a majority of American Christians, particularly evangelicals, believe that for Jesus to return the jews must control Jerusalem. 

The U.S has supported dictatorships in the region to keep Israel safe and secure. The only democracy argument is bullshit.

Sep 26, 2021 - 10:31am

Christians for ~1,700 years were fire-breathing anti-Semites. It wasn't until the late 19th century that Christians, ya know, started to actually read the Bible, at which point they realized a number of things--Jews wrote all but 2 books of the Bible, Jesus was a Jewish rabbi (a conservative one at that), most of the early Christians were Jews (including the core leadership), the Bible declares that there is a special relationship between the Jewish people and God, that the gospel of Jesus Christ was "for the Jew first and then for the gentile," and that, yes, the entire end-times narrative surrounds Jews and Israel. The Bible makes very clear how much evil forces deplore Israel. What's more, the entire Christian faith is informed by Judaism--they are inextricably linked. An educated Christian could not understand his faith without understanding the theology of the Old Testament.

No one who is a follower of Jesus Christ in 2021 who knows anything about the faith could possibly be anti-Israel or anti-Semitic, and any anti-Semitic Christian is a heretic and the son of the Devil. So there is definitely truth in that a core piece of support for Israel surrounds the fact that the God of the Bible declares that those who curse Israel will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed. But that actually doesn't explain America's broad support for Israel. Catholicism, for example, puts forth a heretical (in my view as an evangelical) "replacement theology" that declares that the promises God made to Israel are supplanted by the Church and those promises are given to the Church; the Catholic Church doesn't recognize any connection between the modern state of Israel and the Israel of the Bible. Mainline Protestantism more or less embraces the replacement theology (if it even embraces a theology at all--mainline Protestantism is basically dead). That leaves evangelicals, which simply don't make up anything close to a majority of the U.S. And even among evangelicals, there is a solid 1/4 that don't believe in the connection between modern Israel and Biblical Israel.

No, the truth is much more complicated. It comes down to a number of things:

1) Evangelicals are a large, motivated minority;

2) Modern state of Israel was basically founded by the United States and UK, which provides a parent/child relationship;

3) Israel is racially diverse, religiously pluralistic and tolerant, democratic, capitalist, English-speaking, pro-America, pro-West;

4) Israel backed the U.S. during the Cold War while the Arabs backed the Soviet Union;

5) Israel is a core economic partner with regard to technology;

6) Israel's enemies are almost universally demonstrably evil (tyrants, Islamic extremists, gay-murdering, woman-hating, anti-Semitic, anti-capitalist, etc.), which creates a stark contrast between Israel, which is basically a civilized, modern European/American country by contrast.

Given the context, what I find amazing is how a lot more Americans don't support Israel and how there is a contingent of ~20% of the Republican party opposed to America's open support for Israel. I get not caring about #1 on the list, but what about #s2-6??

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Sep 26, 2021 - 1:16pm

Your list doesn't include the single most important one: the Israel Lobby. Evangelicals certainly play a role in that, but they're very much the junior partners. The main work is done by American Jews who are deeply committed to Israel and motivated to shape US policy in ways that benefit Israel. AIPAC is one of, if not the most, powerful lobbies in DC.

This is not exactly a secret. Sheldon Adelson, who was for a time the largest donor to Republican candidates, was Jewish and said openly that Israel was his number one issue. The top Republican presidential contenders all went to court his favor in what newspapers jokingly called the "Adelson Primary". If you think Adelson's lavish support for Trump had nothing to do with the US embassy moving to Jerusalem, you're kidding yourself. And there are others who support Democrats but push things in a similar direction.

Sep 26, 2021 - 3:33pm

i think the iron dome is good for israel's defense. so if u support israel then very good.

however, i think anyone with a brain can see how evil israel is as a nation (should not rlly exist tbh), so separate from the iron dome, the fact that the us supports this "state" to commit the atrocities against humanity which it does is very low (but not surprising given that it is the USA and that the israeli lobby has an insane level of influence on them).

  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 27, 2021 - 2:42pm

Lol Israel shows a tremendous amount of restraint in how it responds to Hamas. It would be well within Israel's rights to bomb Hamas into the Stone Age. But Hamas knows isn't evil which is why Hamas just uses human shields. My only criticism against Israel is that they're too moderate. No moral equivalence between the two

  • Works at Other
Sep 26, 2021 - 4:23pm

I agree, but are you surprised for a site dedicated to an industry certain members of Israel's founding religion completely dominate relative to Palestinians?

  • Associate 1 in ER
Sep 26, 2021 - 6:22pm

Paper_Boi

Some interesting responses in this thread but the latent racism towards Arabs and Palestinians is pretty depressing to read.

Well duh, finance is a bunch of white kids from the upper middle class suburbs 

Sep 26, 2021 - 6:23pm

Paper_Boi

Some interesting responses in this thread but the latent racism towards Arabs and Palestinians is pretty depressing to read.

Well duh, finance is a bunch of white kids from the upper middle class suburbs 

This is asinine. WASP anti-Semitism is old and long-standing. You think there's some sort of love between American WASPs and the Jews? Do you know literally anything about American history at all?

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Sep 26, 2021 - 6:26pm

Paper_Boi

Some interesting responses in this thread but the latent racism towards Arabs and Palestinians is pretty depressing to read.

It's not racism to call out the Arabs generally and the Palestinians specifically for their ideology being stuck in the 7th century. The Palestinians famously celebrated in the streets on 9/11. The fact that the U.S. hasn't wiped them off the face of the Earth is a testament to our restraint. The Palestinians elected a terrorist organization, and as is common in the Islamic world, they had one vote one time. Hamas is now 16 years into a 5-year term.

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Sep 26, 2021 - 7:07pm

Yes certain Palestinians did celebrate 9/11 as many in America applauded the carpet bombing and invasion of Afghanistan / Iraq, killing thousands of civilians who weren't even aware of what 9/11 even was. My point is that the actions of an abhorrent few shouldn't warrant such vitriol against a whole kind of people. If we're also making the point of being stuck in the 7th century, isn't the original claim for Eretz Yisrael grounded on Biblical justification? Does that make Israelis / Zionists backward in their ideology too? 

The world of foreign policy and international relations is ugly and barbaric but what pisses me off is those who sit on their high horses and have this skewed view that certain sides are fighting the 'good' fight. I almost prefer the cold realpolitik responses above for justifying funding the iron dome rather than those relying on tired racist/islamophobic stereotypes of fighting against barbaric savages.

Ultimately it's an ignorance thing, I bet if you spent time with Palestinians your views would soften. We're all humans at the end of the day with the same motivations and aspirations and the sooner you realise that the less full of contempt you will be toward certain people.

  • Intern in IB - ECM
Sep 26, 2021 - 9:01pm

What I think has been completely left out of the conversation here is what necessitates the existence of the iron dome in the first place. Remember Obama gave it to them for the short-term, as a protection measure so they can start a cycle of negotiations with the Palestinians that would ultimately reduce violence. Obviously that's not what happened. Two major wars on the Gaza strip as well as huge offensive episodes against protestors took place. On the other side, the Palestinian authority has turned its non state into a brutal police state, while Israel continues to descend to outright fascism. Laughably enough this is the opposite of what was supposed to happen lol

Let me just say I am soooo over defending Israel. It is their responsibility to ensure these rockets don't get fired at them. They're not entirely victims here we can stop the charade. Can anyone reason their way into this? "Israel needs iron dome to protect itself against Hamas" ... umm okay, why does Hamas fire rockets into Israel? I get it, they're fundamentalist crazy people, but this doesn't exonerate Israel (or Egypt btw). If Israel occupies and dispossesses and blockades their people literally on a daily basis, then I would expect them to do something about it, even if I don't like it. Retaliatory instinct, you know. And let's not forget the Gaza strip exists because the refugees Israel had expelled settled there after '48 (look up the Khan Yunis massacre, decades before Hamas was a thing). Understand that today's political parties today in Israel are shameless in advocating elimination of their adversaries as well, and they're acting upon it militarily... shouldn't we be giving Palestinians an iron dome too?

But they're our allies... yeah right, evidenced by the fact that they handed over the entire Haifa bay to China.

They don't need anymore weapons, and I'm sick of paying for their problems. They need to sit on a negotiation table and work out a compromise. This is what the iron dome was supposed to give space to. It should not be omitted that Netanyahu explicitly said "America is easy to maneuver." If we just keep funneling endless supplies to them, they'll keep on doing on this forever. It's a drain on our tax money, and it's contributing to killing people I seemingly have no beef with.

So my answer is no. If Israel could negotiate with the gulf monarchies and hold meetings with Saudi officials, they can also back off and comply with international law and leave the occupied territories completely. Obviously things won't be hunky dory first thing in the morning, but you can't argue it's not going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better. The iron dome will have absolutely no reason to exist. We should be emphasizing this, they need to take responsibility. Enough ffs

Sep 26, 2021 - 9:27pm

Yeah, I've heard that take before, that the Iron Dome makes Israel so safe that the regular people don't really give a fuck anymore and as a result aren't interested in bringing an end to the conflict

  • Intern in IB - ECM
Sep 26, 2021 - 9:48pm

Yeah exactly. And by extension constant shelling and death and suffering will make the Palestinians more vindictive, thus exacerbating this whole mess even further

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
Sep 26, 2021 - 10:12pm

Israelis were at the beach while the bomb alarm went off. They are well protected 

Sep 26, 2021 - 10:23pm

There's so much wrong here that I honestly don't even know where to begin. This reads like it's from the propaganda arm of Ron Paul's website. You just forgot to mention the gold standard.

 "Israel needs iron dome to protect itself against Hamas" ... umm okay, why does Hamas fire rockets into Israel? I get it, they're fundamentalist crazy people, but this doesn't exonerate Israel (or Egypt btw). If Israel occupies and dispossesses and blockades their people literally on a daily basis, then I would expect them to do something about it, even if I don't like it. Retaliatory instinct, you know.

The only way a person could have this take is if they live in a fantasy world and are willfully ignorant of the topic at hand. If the PA didn't use imports and humanitarian aid to try to murder Israelis there would be no blockades. For example, Hamas uses the precious concrete resources it gets to build tunnels so that a handful of Palestinians can sneak over and murder some civilians. Their hatred is so intense that they would spend all of their resources building tunnels to murder a few people knowing that it will make no difference. They just want to murder. As a result, they get blockaded. And the useful idiots like you (the Soviet Union had many useful idiots in America) will say, "See, if the Israelis would just allow humanitarian aid to get into the territories [they do] then the violence would end."

And let's not forget the Gaza strip exists because the refugees Israel had expelled settled there after '48 (look up the Khan Yunis massacre, decades before Hamas was a thing).

This is totally deranged. "Refugees" from 73 years ago? They lost a war that THEY started. When you start a war and lose it, you often lose territory. That's literally the story of planet Earth. 73 years after the fact, you are no longer a refugee. Move on with your life. Instead of spending your entire existence trying to murder people so you can implement Sharia law and socialist economic policies that will continue to impoverish your people, you could try to live a quiet and peaceful life.

 They don't need anymore weapons, and I'm sick of paying for their problems. They need to sit on a negotiation table and work out a compromise.

This is totally detached from reality. Hamas' charter calls for the complete destruction of Israel. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is the chant of pro-PA protesters. What does that mean? That means the destruction of Israel. Under much more liberal regimes, Israel has given land countless times to the Palestinians in a desperate bid to sue for peace, and in each case the PA has rejected the offer, and after rejecting the offer has opened attacks against on Israel. What is the brilliant offer that you had in mind for Israel? Pack up shop and head back to Germany?

This is what the iron dome was supposed to give space to. It should not be omitted that Netanyahu explicitly said "America is easy to maneuver." If we just keep funneling endless supplies to them, they'll keep on doing on this forever. It's a drain on our tax money, and it's contributing to killing people I seemingly have no beef with.

This is such a phony complaint. We have a budget larger than God's budget in heaven. The money we send Israel is a rounding error. There is $200 billion in Medicare waste, fraud, and abuse. In 1999, the United States--under Bill Clinton--tried to broker peace between Israel and PA. In 2001, Palestinians danced in the street at the murder of 3,000 Americans. They hate you. You may not have a beef with them, but they deplore you.

So my answer is no. If Israel could negotiate with the gulf monarchies and hold meetings with Saudi officials, they can also back off and comply with international law and leave the occupied territories completely.

I honestly don't think you even have any clue about the Middle East conflict if you're going to continue making these absurd statements. One after the other. Israel has been trying to negotiate with the PA and the gulf Arab states for decades. The gulf Arab states refused for decades. Finally, the gulf Arab states relented (under continued military threat from Iran) and negotiated with Israel. Nations every much as anti-Semitic as the PA agreed to negotiate with Israel but the PA won't. There's nothing to negotiate.

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Sep 26, 2021 - 11:06pm

Why I'm constantly smacking my lips discussing this issue is how we view it the wrong way. I simply don't understand why or how

Sorry man. If you think the PA is anything other than a corrupt tool for us and Israelis to suppress and demoralize the Arabs then you're being lied to. Actually, this is the kind of rhetoric I can only hear from an Israeli source, given that in the US the PA has faded into irrelevance after Arafat. Just weeks ago they hunted down a Palestinian journalist and murdered him using Israeli intelligence. Palestinians resent the PA (why they cancelled the elections Biden had ordered) and there is no such position as pro-PA lol. You should seriously keep up with reality as of today. Even Arafat's daughter is so apathetic at this point

I'm happy to look at any cases involving Hamas smuggling people to kill Israeli civilians. There has been none recently. Why? Because the strip is fully blockaded and any attempt to move close to the borders will be met with force. It's you who's getting things in reverse. Really. We're basically living off the memories of the Intifada here, twisting the fact that it is Israelis who hunt down Palestinians for lunch today. There was an article I read somewhere (you can Google it) of a prospective IDF rabbi permitting the r-pe of Arab women, for example.

I saw someone else on this thread pointing out that Arab states shouldn't be let off the hook for what they started and I agree. Egypt and Jordan did actually start the '48 war. These two states are allies to Israel present day. So why should the Arab population in the land continue to suffer? And I'm sorry for the condescension but clearly you're missing out on a lot here. The Palestinian exodus continued to take place after the independence war. Look up how the US reacted to the massacre of Qibya - not a part of the war. Look up how we reacted to the attacks on the Suez canal. These things are not brought up in our local discourse because it distorts our simplified version. 

I am not here making a case for Hamas, I hate them as much as any reasonable person does. But I'm also not nodding my head to a narrative that has been proven false repeatedly. We can all agree that Hamas sucks, I suspect even Gazans will agree with you here. But Israelis also suck. Sorry you can't keep murdering people for decades and expect me to blame the person being murdered or dispossessed - clearly something's off.

The part about Arab states and their commitment to the cause reads like someone who used to watch fox and friends for fun. This is embarrassing, really. The Arab states have had longstanding relationships with Israel, which they needed to survive. Read Israeli historian Benny Morris, he captured all the covert bilateral relations between Arab elites and Israel. Remember that it was prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia who pressured Arafat into giving up on the right of return, and after the negotiations died he was like "oh I'm sick of this cause". Arabs are not this homogeneous enemy you're trying to make them. 

The Palestinian authority is nothing. Israel isn't a saint. Everyone makes mistakes. I don't base my positions over a personal assessment of who likes me more. Please get informed. You literally just regurgitated everything I heard for years.

edit: here's the article

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4827240,00.html

Sep 26, 2021 - 11:21pm

I haven't had TV for at least 5 years, so you can drop the condescension. 

You're not making any case at all other than "both sides are bad, we shouldn't support one side." That's like saying both the Polish are bad and the Nazis are bad; we shouldn't support the Polish. There is no moral equivalence between the sides. There would be immediate peace if the Palestinians wanted it. The Palestinians--not just Hamas--the Palestinians are very clear and have been for decades that there is no peace to be had--it's all or nothing. This isn't even in dispute.

You've made the ridiculous argument that if the Israelis would just come to the table to negotiate peace there might be some peace to be had. This is the thinking of a 4th grader. The reason the Israeli political Left is dead in Israel after founding the country is because they took your approach for 25 years to no avail. Your approach is a failure. You seem to know so much about the conflict except for the facts that actually matter.

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  • Intern in IB - ECM
Sep 26, 2021 - 11:51pm

Here's a fact that matters: longest serving Israeli PM Netanyahu advocated the murder of Yitzhak Rabin after the latter tried to bolster support for the Oslo accords and demanded Rabin be removed from Jewish tradition. This is a leader who fought in the independence war (and also committed wild shit to Arab villagers lol). But he wasn't Jewish enough at one point because he wanted to achieve peace, which got him murdered in the streets of Tel Aviv. I'm sorry to ruin your idealistic view of the Israeli society, but they're not as warm and peace loving as you (and I) want them to be. They need to do better. Netanyahu has been vehemently opposed to any negotiations and has continued to increase settlements for over a decade (and all the Israeli right holds these policies still), and you think that shows willingness to peace? Give your head a shake! Even when the ridiculous PA tried to (unilaterally) take a legal course of action in 2011 they were threatened with annihilation. Yeah fuck Hamas and the PA but please be consistent. It is a dispute. Please look things up more neutrally.

I'm not saying we shouldn't support either side. What I'm suggesting is that we should have a responsible approach. Sorry I am not rolling my eyes over people unnecessarily getting killed. And don't you run away, I can tell you how much I resent Saudis, Russians, Chinese...etc for constantly carrying out aggression against innocent people. And speaking of the "25 years" gap, are you aware that the Palestinians have been still getting murdered in their camps (like IDF assisting the massacre in Lebanon, at Sabra & Shatila camp)? The history is bloody and endless, and I genuinely hope someday someone has enough patience to gloss over the suffering of their ancestors to build a better life for the generations to come - Jews and Arabs alike.

Sep 27, 2021 - 12:37am

Again, you speak so much of the details about the conflict except you ignore the actual facts that matter. You keep making pointless assertions that actually say nothing. 

Let me ask you something--what is the peace process that the Palestinians have offered the Israelis? The Palestinians have promised what in exchange for peace? The answer is that the Palestinians have promised peace in exchange for Israelis packing up their stuff and leaving or, better yet, dying off. That's it. They've rejected every peace offer from the Israelis and offered no actual counteroffer. The Israelis are under no obligation to permanently play nice with a city-state of genocidal maniacs that brainwash their kids with cartoons that call for the murder of Jews. 

The reason your position is so blatantly anti-Semitic is that you hold Israel to a standard you wouldn't hold any other country to, up to and including Palestine and the United States. 

As to Netanyahu, he is the product of decades of your failed policies. Useful idiots like you put forth asinine peace plans that obviously won't be accepted by the terrorist regime on the other side, so hardliners like Netanyahu are the natural consequence of your utopian bullshit.

Array

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  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
Sep 27, 2021 - 9:00am

Certified bruh moment. This shit is why wars keep on going forever. You seem less educated on the matter than the other dude but you refuse to compromise on your only one view: Israel good; Ar*bs bad. Lol

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Sep 26, 2021 - 11:02pm

Nope, I'm Jewish, thanks for playing.

But come on, you have to admit that the Goyim deserve to be led like dumb cattle when you have uber Jews like Schumer winning elections by advocating for open U.S. borders and tens of thousands of 70 IQ Haitians streaming in for gibs, all while turning around and funding Israel to the gills. Remember, Israel is a country that racially profiles visitors, has a giant wall, has extremely strict immigration laws and will kill anything that tries to fuck with their people. 
 

if only our own leaders cared for their people so much, but c'est la vie.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Sep 27, 2021 - 10:11am

Everyone forgets the Iron Dome helps the people in Gaza too because if those rockets landed, Israel would have to react a lot more strongly. It's because they get intercepted that 1) Israel doesn't blow the whole place up and 2) the global perception of Gaza isn't as bad. 

If rockets landed, lots of innocent civilians would be killed on both sides and the world would be forced to recognize Hamas for the terrorists they actually are

Also, worth giving the money just so we don't have to watch war on the news every day

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
Sep 27, 2021 - 12:26pm

For those of you who express anti Zionist/anti Israel rhetoric on this forum-I'd caution you to keep it very close to your chest if you don't want to end up on your arse after you say the wrong thing to the wrong person in this industry.

Sep 27, 2021 - 4:36pm

Drumpfy

Except Jews are more likely than Christians to think America is too supportive of Israel

That is because most Jews in the US are liberal and have issues with the current regime in Israel.  

Sep 27, 2021 - 2:38pm

The US supports a bunch of countries it really shouldn't, and for no apparent reason.  Pakistan is another.

In Israel's case, it's because a bunch of evangelical Christians in this country view Jewish occupation of Israel as a necessary condition for the end times.  And as with all other issues, once you get a religious fanatic on board, compromise or conversation becomes impossible.  Obviously Jews are also pro-Israel (though given the rather secular nature of American Jewry, this gets overstated), but the real backing for Israel within Congress comes from those who represent the religious right wing, and unfortunately, that support is more or less unconditional, because it isn't predicated on a rational cost/benefit analysis or on Israel's actions, but rather on the zealotry and fanaticism of Americans.  Which is why Mr Trump was so pro-Israel, and why it doesn't seem to matter that Israel is all but ethnically cleansing her Palestinian population.

Sep 27, 2021 - 5:41pm

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Sep 27, 2021 - 5:44pm

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Sep 27, 2021 - 5:51pm

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"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn

  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Sep 27, 2021 - 5:51pm

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